Most in One 2 Player Control Panel - Feedback Please

[LocknLoad]

Hi,

New here and pretty have my shopping list done.

Goal
DIY 2 player cabinet for Mame and Xbox 360

Joysticks
U360
Servostik upgrade kit
U360 Rotary upgrade kit
Long shaft for U360
Spring for U360
U360 Restrictor plate
Servostick control board
Universal dust washer

Works out way more expensive than the Servostik but I figure I need the analog for the Xbox 360 games (and some MAME).

Admin Buttons
Happ Concave

Action Buttons
Happ Comp Convex

2x IPAC2 with console adaptor

I had a good look and read through the common button layouts over at slagcoin.
I have come up with this design but what worries me is that I have not seen anything similar so I might be missing something.
I prefer to use my thumb versus my pinky or moving my hand too much. Never played on an 8 button layout so need feedback please.

Plan is to go with a 27 inch with rotation for vertical/landscape switching. Current 27 is 640mm across so will have 5cm either side with the 740mm CP.

[Nephasth]

Joysticks
U360
Servostik upgrade kit - Don't need, U360 handles 4way to 8way switching, physical restriction means nothing at this point
U360 Rotary upgrade kit - Waste of money
Long shaft for U360 - Don't need, mount your joysticks right, better yet... build a metal CP
Spring for U360
U360 Restrictor plate - Don't need, unless you want octagon
Servostick control board - Don't need
Universal dust washer - WHAT THE ---fudgesicle---

More notes... Too many admin buttons. 8 buttons per player is ridiculous. Loose the pinball buttons. You don't need I-PACs when you've got U360s... Unless... You know... Your end goal of this project is to see how much money you can dump into it...

[LocknLoad]

Thanks for the feedback Nephasth.

There are a few games that I played as a kid that require the rotary function so we can agree to disagree there.

As for the servo I was planning to set it up with a 4/8 way toggle switch in hardware mode to avoid a rather complex software programming aspect.
I ran this past Andy and although not actively supported or encouraged it would work even in software mode.

The panel will be 18mm grade A marine plywood.

As I mentioned I will be using the panel to play console games hence the 8 buttons. With so many panels having 7 or 8 why your hate-on-8?
How do you suggest I connect the console adapter - http://www.ultimarc.com/console.html - without IPAC2 boards?

[Mike A]

With so many panels having 7 or 8 why your hate-on-8?

Because playing console games on an arcade cabinet is dumb.

[Howard_Casto]

^This^

The few console games that are well suited for an arcade cab won't use 8 buttons anyway.  Some of the modern fighters can utilize 8 buttons, but it's typically optional.  8 doesn't bother me on a layout anymore, I've mellowed over the years apparently, but I can understand why so many people deem it unnecessary. 

[BadMouth]

8 buttons makes sense for Steam and Xbox360 games, assuming that the controls show up as an xbox360 controller.  Some games like Mortal Kombat X make you map every button on the x360 controller before allowing you to exit the remap screen.  Castle Crashers uses every damn button.  If not playing Steam or Xbox360, there is no reason to have more than 6.

Steam or Xbox360 games that use analog thumbsticks usually use both, so for the most part they aren't going to be playable anyway.
You are pretty much limited to fighting games and platformers that don't use analog.  Anything else is a PITA to try and play with the arcade controls.  Even with the platformers, it gets annoying if you have to remember what more than 3 buttons do.  Quite a few of the newer platformers use the right analog thumbstick for aiming of some sorts, which makes them unplayable with arcade controls.

If you must have pinball buttons, do 2 on each side.
Some games require it and they can be used for "nudge" on games that don't.

When I put together my first system, I put dozens of emulators on it so it could play "everything".
The majority of them went unused after testing them out. 
Most games for anything N64 or newer were unplayable because the controls became analog and complicated moving forward.
When I got around to building an actual cab, I decided to go arcade only/no pinball.

IMO, time is better spent installing non-MAME arcade stuff than Atari 5200.

[Howard_Casto]

After 20 years of this stuff I've determined that I like beat-em-ups, shooters, fighting games and run-n-gun games on an arcade cabinet.  I also like light gun games and racing games, but those aren't well suited for a generic mame cab.  I would suggest just making a simple starter control panel top and don't bother with artwork or anything.  After a few months of playing you'll determine what you actually need pretty quick and be able to make a revised panel.

[Titchgamer]

Hi,

New here and pretty have my shopping list done.

Goal
DIY 2 player cabinet for Mame and Xbox 360

Joysticks
U360
Servostik upgrade kit
U360 Rotary upgrade kit
Long shaft for U360
Spring for U360
U360 Restrictor plate
Servostick control board
Universal dust washer

Works out way more expensive than the Servostik but I figure I need the analog for the Xbox 360 games (and some MAME).

Admin Buttons
Happ Concave

Action Buttons
Happ Comp Convex

2x IPAC2 with console adaptor

I had a good look and read through the common button layouts over at slagcoin.
I have come up with this design but what worries me is that I have not seen anything similar so I might be missing something.
I prefer to use my thumb versus my pinky or moving my hand too much. Never played on an 8 button layout so need feedback please.

Plan is to go with a 27 inch with rotation for vertical/landscape switching. Current 27 is 640mm across so will have 5cm either side with the 740mm CP.

That button layout looks rather confusing and uncomfortable to me.

I suggest you make a mockup out of cardboard first and see how you get on with it.

Me personally I wouldn’t know where to rest my wrist or place my fingers with a layout like that!

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah I forgot to mention how odd that 8th button placement is.  It's supposed to be two rows of four and I don't know what you are trying to do there. 

[LocknLoad]

Once I have the parts I will definitely make some templates out of hardboard or card board to test.

Very interesting feedback regarding console games in mame cabinets. Will need to think about that in the coming days.
I would like to place an order for the parts before month end. Gives me Oct/Nov to source the remaining components and do a build during Dec.

As for the layout I looked at some 8 button layouts like the xacrade and possibly made some bad calls.
I added some curve to the buttons and lowered the centre of the joystick in order for the centres of both palms to be closer.
Since my proposed panel is wider there is less of a requirement to stand off centre. Will see how it feels when I build it.

[yo1dog]

I will have to agree that the button layout doesn't make sense to me. You wouldn't be able to reach that top left button without resting your wrist on the bottom right one. My advice is to not try and reinvent the wheel. Stick with one of the tried and true layouts: https://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

As stated, at the end of the day if you are not sure what you want just grab some scrap and make some test CPs to test out your layouts. Give it a real, in-game test for 30mins to an hour. If you find that you like it, go for it. Whatever works for you.

For playing newer consoles, I agree that an arcade setup just doesn't work that well. I tried it once and got frustrated because I knew I could play much better with a controller. The arcade controls felt like a heavy handicap. Some guys build ports into the front of their cabs so they can plug in controllers. I don't get this either because I'd rather play console games on a TV and sitting on the couch rather than standing in front of a cabinet (game-kiosk-style). Again, test it out and decide for yourself.

Regarding the 8 buttons, the 8th button will be used rarely if at all. However, my current control panel mockup also has 8 buttons. This is because I wanted the neo-geo 4 button layout but I also wanted the the stacked 6 button layout for fighting games. The missing space looked empty so I stuck an 8th button in there for a final stacked 8 button layout. It will probably never be pushed.

[Titchgamer]

Yeah if you want 8 buttons the stacked neo layout is probably the best.

[LocknLoad]

The control layout is almost identical to this one on slagcoin. The end two buttons are just relocated.
On a crude A4 test it felt okay but will build both and get a real world feel.



I think I will go ahead and order the 8 buttons just in case but will probably run the U360 vanilla.
If it bothers me then will do a servo upgrade just for the one and test some more.

[Titchgamer]

The control layout is almost identical to this one on slagcoin. The end two buttons are just relocated.
On a crude A4 test it felt okay but will build both and get a real world feel.



I think I will go ahead and order the 8 buttons just in case but will probably run the U360 vanilla.
If it bothers me then will do a servo upgrade just for the one and test some more.

Yeah thats the stacked 8 button layout.
Tried, Tested and comfortable!

[yo1dog]

The control layout is almost identical to this one on slagcoin. The end two buttons are just relocated.

The relocating of the two end buttons is what kills the layout (IMO) and makes it completely different. The layout exactly as it is is what has been tested (the relative spacing is significant as well).

Test with real buttons on something sturdy and in game. Paper won't tell you much. Defiantly go ahead and order the 8th buttons. They are cheap enough that if you don't end up using 2 it won't be a big deal.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah with respect to the fine folks at xarcade, they couldn't design a good layout if their life depended on it. They just shoe-horned extra buttons into their old 6 button layout.   If you don't see a particular layout on a real arcade game, there is probably a reason for it.  Arcade games with 8 buttons use the double neo-geo layout, because it works. 


You'll also probably want to map them

4568
1237

Most games will use the 6 button layout (or less) so you'll only have to remap for neogeo and modern fighters. 

[BadMouth]

You'll also probably want to map them

4568
1237

1237
4568

IMO.  It depends on whether you intuitively go for the top row or bottom row when playing a game with only a couple buttons.
Back when I had a bar/arcade in my basement, I don't think I ever had a guest go for the second row.

MAME defaults assume you have
123
456

Keep that core and you won't have to remap the capcom fighters (or much else).

I put 7 buttons on my cab because I wanted the "Neo Geo 4 in a row".
After playing it a while I prefer to hit the first button in the bottom row with my thumb rather than reach for the 4th in the top row.
If I ever redo it, I'll probably go back to the old Street Fighter straight 6 with concave buttons.

[Howard_Casto]

Nah man, you rest your fingers on the bottom row so you don't accidently press the unneeded buttons and you can access the upper row without stumbling over yourself..... that's home position.  Mame doesn't really assume anything and button orders are just based on pcb pinouts …. take a look at how crazily the Mortal Kombat games are mapped for an example of that.  There are several Capcom games that swap the rows though and again, that's because of mame going more by the wiring harness than physical controls.