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Author Topic: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction  (Read 4831 times)

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philexile

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GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« on: July 15, 2018, 11:57:12 am »
Hello,

I have a I have an older Asrock H97M-ITX motherboard ( http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/H97M/ ) in my GroovyMame PC, which supports the 1150 slot CPUs. I have one of the Pentium 20th Anniversary G3258 CPUs installed currently.

I've had a lot of starts and long pauses with my Groovymame setup due to life/work stuff and I really want to take a moment this summer to get this setup just how I want it. My goal is to have GroovyMame setup with as little latency as possible as detailed in this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133194.0/all.html

I have a NEC CRT which supports 120hz. I was told that this refresh rate also helps reduce latency – I'm not sure if that is true though.

I also recently purchased the I-PAC 2 to help with lag over USB and I was thinking of upgrading my CPU to the i7 4790K, which isn't cheap:

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2W07CJ4133

Would GroovyMame be able to really take advantage of this stronger processor – and if so, maybe I should just start from scratch and get a new motherboard and CPU?

I'd appreciate if someone could help point me in the right direction. I don't want to do this on a budget – I just want to do this right so that I can play and enjoy some arcade games for a few years without having to worry about hardware stuff!

Also, is Windows 7 still the best way to go for GroovyMame compatibility?

Thanks!

krick

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 01:19:17 pm »
I don't know a lot about the specific requirements for lag-free gaming but I do know that the frame delay feature in GroovyMAME requires a bit of CPU horsepower.  Also, MAME itself has a few drivers that perform better with more CPU cores.  So the G3258 (dual core) might hold you back in that area.  I think Haynor666 still uses a G3258 so he might be able to provide more info.

Not only are Core i7 4790K CPUs really expensive, you'd probably want to have a Z87 or Z97 motherboard to really take advantage of having an unlocked "K" processor with regards to overclocking.  Z87/Z97 boards are hard to find these days and can be expensive in their own right.

A consideration with newer hardware choices is that Windows 7 isn't technically supported on newer Intel CPUs and Intel is actively trying to dissuade you from doing it by blocking windows updates.  There are workarounds, but I don't know how well they work.  More info...

http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-3346553/intel-7th-gen-support-windows.html
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4012982/the-processor-is-not-supported-together-with-the-windows-version-that
https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/windows-7-wont-work-intels-current-next-gen-cpus/
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/new-processors-are-now-blocked-from-receiving-updates-on-old-windows/
Workaround: https://github.com/zeffy/wufuc

This all assumes that you plan to stick with Windows 7, which seems to still be the most popular choice for GroovyMAME at the moment.

If you're willing to move to Windows 10 as some people here have, then the 8th Generation Intel Core i3 8350k (quad core, 4.0GHz stock) seems like a decently priced choice for MAME if you pick up a motherboard capable of overclocking it.  I'm seeing overclocks of 4.5GHz being common, with some 4.8GHz or higher for people who got lucky.
Hantarex Polo 15KHz
Sapphire Radeon HD 7750 2GB (GCN)
GroovyMAME 0.197.017h_d3d9ex
CRT Emudriver & CRT Tools 2.0 beta 13 (Crimson 16.2.1 for GCN cards)
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel Core i7-4790K @ 4.8GHz
ASUS Z87M-PLUS Motherboard

philexile

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 02:27:53 pm »
Hi Krick,

Thank you for this info! Please see below:

So the G3258 (dual core) might hold you back in that area.  I think Haynor666 still uses a G3258 so he might be able to provide more info.

Haynor, have you tried the new latency settings with Groovymame and, if so, how does it perform for you?

Not only are Core i7 4790K CPUs really expensive, you'd probably want to have a Z87 or Z97 motherboard to really take advantage of having an unlocked "K" processor with regards to overclocking. Z87/Z97 boards are hard to find these days and can be expensive in their own right.

That's a good point. I'm not sure how much OC'ing I want to do though. For one, its in an ITX case and I don't want to have issues with cooling. I'm also not a huge fan of OC'ing – it seems to be more trouble than its worth – at least with the super heavy tweaking. I think the motherboard I have now has an "auto OC" feature and I just used that. :P

A consideration with newer hardware choices is that Windows 7 isn't technically supported on newer Intel CPUs and Intel is actively trying to dissuade you from doing it by blocking windows updates.  There are workarounds, but I don't know how well they work.  More info...

Ugh, right. I forgot about that -- good to know. Looks like too much of a pain for me.

If you're willing to move to Windows 10 as some people here have,


Aren't there issues with Groovy and Windows 10 though?

then the 8th Generation Intel Core i3 8350k (quad core, 4.0GHz stock) seems like a decently priced choice for MAME if you pick up a motherboard capable of overclocking it.  I'm seeing overclocks of 4.5GHz being common, with some 4.8GHz or higher for people who got lucky.

I don't really want to have a budget Groovymame PC. If I'm going to do this, I want to go all out!

Thanks again
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 02:30:35 pm by philexile »

buttersoft

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 07:54:49 pm »
Aren't there issues with Groovy and Windows 10 though?

Early on there were, i think, but I've had none. Only problem with my Win10 setup has been that Model2emu stutters when two players are linked on Daytona, but that's not GM related in any way.

philexile

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 08:34:58 pm »
Hi Buttersoft,

Thanks for letting me know – that certainly widens my options!

What motherboard and CPU would you pick if you were to build a GroovyMame rig that would fit in an ITX case?

krick

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2018, 10:08:14 pm »
If you're not going to overclock, and if money is no object, then you should buy the fastest "Turbo" speed CPU available, which would be one of the following...

Intel® Core i7-8086K Processor 4.00 GHz (5.00 GHz turbo) - $424.99 at Newegg
Intel® Core i7-8700K Processor 3.70 GHz (4.70 GHz turbo) - $349.99 at Newegg
Intel® Core i7-8700 Processor 3.20 GHz (4.60 GHz turbo) - $301.99 at Newegg

However, all of these these options are going to run pretty hot under load and you may be limited by your cooling options in a Mini-ITX case.  Which case do you have?

I have a micro-ATX build in a Silverstone SG-10 case and I'm using the Noctua NH-D15S cooler.  It's HUGE but it works really well.  Note that it is the "S" version, which is asymmetrical and works better on most small motherboards due to memory clearance issues.

This is what I'd buy if I was building a system from current parts and money was no object...

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz 6-Core Processor  ($347.89 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Noctua - NH-D15S 82.5 CFM CPU Cooler  ($79.90 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Asus - ROG Strix Z370-I Gaming Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($153.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory  ($144.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $726.77
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-07-15 22:05 EDT-0400


Again, this would easily fit in my SG-10 case.  You might need to choose a different cooler if your case is smaller.
Hantarex Polo 15KHz
Sapphire Radeon HD 7750 2GB (GCN)
GroovyMAME 0.197.017h_d3d9ex
CRT Emudriver & CRT Tools 2.0 beta 13 (Crimson 16.2.1 for GCN cards)
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel Core i7-4790K @ 4.8GHz
ASUS Z87M-PLUS Motherboard

philexile

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 10:33:36 pm »
Hi, thank you so much for these options! It’s not that I don’t want to OC — I’d just rather the motherboard do it for me. I’m lazy and not too interested in eking out performance. It would take me a weekend to learn at least and I’d rather be up and running fast. :-)

My case is a Cooler Master Elite 130. Do you that everything will fit in there? I may be able to change cases if needed.

That motherboard seems pretty inexpensive — should I aim higher or is this good? ;-)

buttersoft

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2018, 10:46:36 pm »
Errr, yer, that :)

I'm always on a pretty tight budget, myself. I'm using Core2duo's & DDR2 RAM (with SSDs) and no 2D game is any trouble. TBH, I also run Tekken 7 on one of these (with a Radeon 6870) at 800x600i@50Hz, and while the detail is down you wouldn't notice due to the lower res.

A quad i3k like Krick said up above, with 8GB RAM and an SSD, and a card for crt_emudriver, is going to knock GM out of the park for the next ten years without question, save some of the 3D stuff that still makes your desktop rig chug. What's really needed for 3D titles in MAME is updates and interest, not more powerful hardware. And apart from a few driving games, and STV, there's very little 3D MAME i'm interested in anyway.

Overall, more powerful hardware is better (the GPU being a special case with MAME as it's not really used) and using frame slicing or frame delay will have lower input lag, but it's a case of diminishing returns.

If I had the money i think a miniature ROG motherboard with a big processor would be pretty awesome :)

philexile

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2018, 10:53:20 pm »
The problem is FRAME DELAY. To get the best lag-free emulation it should be set as high as possible, which I think is 9. I was only able to do that on older games like Pac-Man.

Also, I think there is a new latency feature in Groovymame similar to the one included with Retroarch which is called RUNAHEAD I think. It’s mentioned in the latency thread I linked in the first post.

EDIT: Oops, it’s called FRAME SLICES — I’ve never used it, but I guess this is the new thing?

This is why I’m looking for a faster CPU.

Have you messed with FFRAME DELAY at all?

Thanks again
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:07:38 pm by philexile »

buttersoft

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2018, 11:33:30 pm »
Have you messed with FFRAME DELAY at all?

Frame slicing is the new feature goorvymame has, but it only works with a few games. This is in-frame updating. WinUAE is doing it too.

Frame delay is still in there. My core2duo rigs will run CPS1 at frame delay 8, and neogeo at about 6. (http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,133194.msg1648384.html#msg1648384)

I know nothing much about retroarch though, sorry. Surely runahead would do the same thing as frame-delay though. I think i heard they had this great new feature that was like groovymame from 2011 ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:43:39 pm by buttersoft »

krick

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2018, 11:37:06 pm »
My case is a Cooler Master Elite 130. Do you that everything will fit in there? I may be able to change cases if needed.

When I say that the Noctua is HUGE, I'm not kidding.  Here's some pictures of it on a full-sized ATX motherboard...
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Noctua/NH-D15S/5.html

I think you'd need to go for a radiator cooling arrangement in the Cooler Master Elite 130 case because the power supply sits directly over the CPU.
You'd have to do some research on what people are using in that case.


Note that most (all?) of the current unlocked "K" CPUs do not come with a heatsink/fan so if you went with a "K" CPU, you have to buy a heatsink anyway.


Echoing what buttersoft said, the i3-8350K is also a decent choice to save a bit of money (-$178.89) and you always have the option of overclocking it later if you put it on a "Z" series motherboard.  I usually go for 16GB of memory these days, even though it's overkill because buying more memory in the future is always way more expensive once the technology moves on to something new.   Here's what that build would look like...

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i3-8350K 4GHz Quad-Core Processor  ($169.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: Noctua - NH-D15S 82.5 CFM CPU Cooler  ($79.90 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Asus - ROG Strix Z370-I Gaming Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($153.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 16GB (2 x 8GB) DDR4-2400 Memory  ($144.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $547.88
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2018-07-15 23:24 EDT-0400
Hantarex Polo 15KHz
Sapphire Radeon HD 7750 2GB (GCN)
GroovyMAME 0.197.017h_d3d9ex
CRT Emudriver & CRT Tools 2.0 beta 13 (Crimson 16.2.1 for GCN cards)
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel Core i7-4790K @ 4.8GHz
ASUS Z87M-PLUS Motherboard

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 03:06:37 am »
I still use Asus H81M-E with Intel G3258 but such configuration at that time was built for best money/power ratio. After overclocking G3258 to about 4,2 GHz I can get score even 2500 for single core in PassMark. I know that PassMark score at cpubenchmark is lower but this might be due fact that some people does not gave G3258 overclocked/running on board without overclocking function so average result is lower. The same score for single core can be obtained with Intel 4790k (again - this is average result). Please note that 4790k is already at 4 GHz while 4770k only at 3,5 GHz and G3258 only at 3,2 GHz.

https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Pentium+G3258+%40+3.20GHz&id=2267
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-4790K+%40+4.00GHz&id=2275
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu=Intel+Core+i7-4770K+%40+3.50GHz&id=1919

You may look here - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,146276.0.html
And them pick the fastests option from here - https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html

As krick mentioned 8086k is the best for single core speed. Sadly I don't know much about games that uses more than one core. Probably some seattle games and others based on Voodoo hardware can benefit from 2 and more cores. Personally I'm not playing those games so I cannot give any more details. Look here - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,151951.msg1590289.html#msg1590289
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,149713.msg1562330.html#msg1562330

Tests are done with old mame (maybe it's time to update this file) but it might give You a clue what processor will be the best and at the time G3258 was the best.

By default I'm using frame_delay 2 and PortAudio but to be honest I don't feel/see any difference because I'm using right now poor mayflash stick (my U360 needs service and rotary upgrade to be removed). I don't hear any audio lag either.

As for system I still prefer Windows 7. Simply because I can strip system easily from not needed features/services and as a result make it slighly faster than windows 10 on the same hardware. Another plus is that works fine with only 2Gb of memory.

Now about Your NEC CRT. It's 120 Hz so as far I remember syncing will work correctly with black_frame insertion. I have still at home Samsung 19'' with support for 120 Hz modes so maybe at some time I'll test this behaviour.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 04:08:46 am by haynor666 »

krick

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2018, 05:11:40 pm »
Check out this sweet overclocked 5GHz i7-8700K Mini-ITX PC Build...
Hantarex Polo 15KHz
Sapphire Radeon HD 7750 2GB (GCN)
GroovyMAME 0.197.017h_d3d9ex
CRT Emudriver & CRT Tools 2.0 beta 13 (Crimson 16.2.1 for GCN cards)
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit
Intel Core i7-4790K @ 4.8GHz
ASUS Z87M-PLUS Motherboard

philexile

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2018, 09:16:12 am »
Hello again,

Everyone, thank you for these posts – I feel like I know better where to go from here.  :D

And them pick the fastests option from here - https://www.cpubenchmark.net/singleThread.html


That site is incredibly useful! I think I'm going to go with the top rated CPU: i7 8086K (or maybe the i7 8700K). I want to use this for a long while, so I might as well go all out. :-)

Check out this sweet overclocked 5GHz i7-8700K Mini-ITX PC Build...


Cool build! I like that case, but I'm going to stick with my case because it is long enough to fit the Sapphire Radeon HD 7970 OC 3GB card that I have.

I guess that the Noctua NH-L12S heatsink is the best for a small form factor PC? Will the ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-I work for me as well?

Lastly, are there any optimized builds of Windows 10 available? I had a pretty stripped Windows 7 build and haven't dipped my feat into the Windows 10 pool yet.

Thanks again!!!
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 09:21:56 am by philexile »

buttersoft

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2018, 08:06:36 pm »
I had a build of Win 7 that was so lite, with so much stripped out of it, it used to get me into trouble. It didn't have a scheduling function, and was stuck on DirectX 9, etc. I upgraded to vanilla Win10 x64 home, it's far better, and it loads faster than any Win 7 build I've ever used. There are probably stripped out win 10 builds available, but you may not want one; just saying.

philexile

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Re: GroovyMame - Upgrading for Latency Reduction
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2018, 09:35:37 am »
Great – if stock Windows 10 will perform best, sign me up! :)

So this is what I'm going with:

Case: Cooler Master Elite 130, already own

PSU: I can't remember the name, but I know its a modular, quality one and rated for at least 750

Videocard: Sapphire Radeon HD 7970 OC 3GB (Can Groovymame handle more modern cards than this yet?)

CPU: i7 8086K, its a bit more, but I read that it seems to run a little cooler than the 8700K

Cooler: Noctua NH-L12S heatsink

Motherboard: ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-I

RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 DRAM 3000MHz (I assume this is plenty – even for modern games?)

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO Series - 500GB NVMe

Please let me know if anything looks like a mistake.

Thanks again!
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 09:40:09 am by philexile »