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| Titchgamer:
--- Quote from: MrLightgun on June 26, 2018, 06:39:47 am ---Hi everyone This is my Kickstarter and I've been encouraged to join the discussion. I've been trying to avoid joining threads like this because it can be seen as self promotion and get the thread shut down. I've joined this thread, firstly because I was encouraged to by a member but also this is a very knowledgable thread with some obviously smart people contributing and this type of feedback is incredibly useful and appreciated. I'll focus on the technology discussion rather than trying to sell the product! I'm going to attempt to answer some of the general questions in the thread: 1) Accuracy: The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect. 2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration). This removes 33%-50% of any lag seen because you don't need to wait for the display to update. I only show the crosshair on the videos for people to follow what is happening and show the accuracy of the gun. On my initial videos I didn't realise quite how laggy this looked. I had the windows mouse animation speed set at around 75%. Maxing this to 100% helped. You can see now on my virtua cop video how good performance is in a real game. The response time is less than 2 frames and would probably be less than 1 if a high speed camera was used which is obviously the plan in the future. 3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true! I've obviously learnt from this so now have given more details and also try to show more the type of content people have suggested. The feedback from places like here has been incredibly useful and I have taken it on board. 4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast. I wouldn't put myself on the line trying to release a product that I didn't think was already awesome. If I got the opportunity to do a public demo that would really help, I'm not managed to get any media interest yet although I burnt the first week having to redo all my content so I need to focus on that now. 5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge. Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for. Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible. 6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun. The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective. My innovation can bring back the ease of use (no calibration) and fun (line of sight) of the gameplay mechanism. A border (worst case) is a small sacrifice for this, in my opinion of course! This is why my grand plan is to bring back the Lightgun genre. 7) Distance to the TV: I've only just realised what a key feature this is in the last few days as I was unaware how big an issue this was on other technology. So ideally the Lightgun needs to see 2 widths of the tv, so if you aim to the far left of the tv in the centre of your video frame, the right hand side of the tv is still in the frame BUT if you are closer and you chop the edge off the edge of the tv you still see a rectangle with what is left. So you still know you are at the far side of the rectangle and therefore at the far left. In reality this slightly lowers the horizontal accuracy. However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy. This would enable you to use the gun much closer because you only need to get just over a televisions width in the frame. The sacrifice would be that it wouldn't work so well from angles at this distance but it doesn't sound like this would be a show stopper compared to the overall benefit. If it continually updated the tv width when it sees the full frame then if you move position it should still keep its accuracy. I would consider the accuracy as almost perfect (99%??) because there is guess work involved, rather than perfect when it sees the whole frame. With other products once you can't see see some of the raw LED input you are stuck as you can't infer. 8) CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns. If the screen is a flat screen CRT it would definitely work. If it was a very curved old style one I guess it would come to how rectangular the image was. Probably be more restricted on your angle and you need to be head on. However the technology can be adapted to do something else such as putting markers in the corners instead of a rectangle. So yes the technology should work but unsure about my current software implementation. Any photos of people's CRT with a full screen game on would assist the discussion. Maybe warping the original border so that it is rectangular after it is output might do the trick. Please ask any other questions you have and I'll do my best to answer, thank you all for taking the time to look at and feedback on my Lightgun technology. If you could post my project on any forum or groups it would be massively appreciated. You don't have to instruct everyone to buy it but just raising it for interest and discussion like this thread would be great. Thanks Mr Lightgun --- End quote --- Well how about that, Very cool you found us and joined the discussion :) --- Quote from: Mike A on June 26, 2018, 07:53:22 am ---If your margin is low you will fail. You cannot manufacture and sell a niche product for low margin. If the price is too high you will fail. Everyone says they want a product until it is time to pony up the dough. If you take Titchgamer's money and run to Tahiti, I will hop on a plane and burn down your grass hut. I know how this Kickstarter thing works. --- End quote --- This made me LOL so hard, Thanks Mike ;) |
| RandyT:
Thanks for joining the discussion. I have some questions/comments, but keep in mind that I own and shoot actual guns, am ex-military, have been playing lightgun games for as long as they have been a thing and own a dedicated 37" RGB CRT setup for Guncon games on PS2. My bar is admittedly high. --- Quote from: MrLightgun on June 26, 2018, 06:39:47 am ---1) Accuracy: The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect. --- End quote --- I understand that accuracy could be as perfect as the hardware and methodology allows, but the demonstrations of your device are weak in the "typical use scenario" department. Also, "perfect" as in perfect, or perfect in relation to a GunCon? Wiimote? ?? What is your reference for quality? Do you, or have you owned and used an actual good CRT-based lightgun? Do you know, and can you accurately express the limitations of your product against other products? I.e. typical marketing due diligence. --- Quote ---2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration). --- End quote --- Small lag, while important, isn't a showstopper, as long as the gun reliably fires in the location at which it is being aimed. There are a lot of coarse human motor functions going on, which should give the hardware time to "get there" before the trigger is pulled. As for calibration, how would you be able to deal with varying resolutions and possible image cropping without calibration of some sort? I'm sure it's possible, but the question is specifically if you have taken this into consideration and accounted for it? I understand that the on-screen frame can mitigate this, but what about cases where it cannot be used? --- Quote ---3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true! --- End quote --- This is to be expected with any new product. The difference is that you are soliciting funds for something which does not exist currently for sale. There can be no "early adopters" which can generate positive "word of mouth" about the product. At this point, it exists only as a prototype and a promise. Skepticism with such things is the order of the day. This means that you need to do all of the things a typical consumer might do with your product, and prove to investors (that is what they are) that what you are doing is real and effective in those cases. --- Quote ---4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast. --- End quote --- It's a good sign that you have confidence in your invention. It's of paramount importance that this be the case. So my question to you is: if you are really confident in your claim that this device is a game changer (and it very well could be) why do you not believe in it strongly enough to finance it's development on your own? Have you sought any IP protection? Looked into a business loan? Approached any videogame peripheral companies? If I had a game-changing, mass-marketable technology which blows everything else "out of the water", crowd-funding wouldn't be my first move, at least before filing a provisional patent and exploring it's mass marketability through established players in those markets. Sans those actions, through KickStarter, you have given those same companies, with vastly more resources, a roadmap to to bring your product to market well before you can. --- Quote ---5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge. Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for. Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible. --- End quote --- This is understandable. You need molds, and they alone have significant costs. On the flip side, it may be unreasonable to expect investors to bear the entire risk of the project, without a demonstration by you that you personally have something significant to lose if it fails. I don't know if it does, but if that figure includes a "paycheck" to you for the next year while you continue development, you might have a tough road ahead. --- Quote --- 6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun. The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective. --- End quote --- Your hypothesis is not incorrect. If you need a cursor on the screen, it's not what it used to be. My concern with this statement is your comparison to PS3 Move, rather than the true lightgun solution that is the GunCon II. That is the bar against which you should be basing your performance comparisons, if your goal is to correct for the case in your hypothesis. I have no doubt that it won't stack up, as it really can't, given the difference in the technology. But "as good" under the conditions allowed by the different technology, would be an excellent start. I.e. your method makes it impossible to hold the gun 6" from the display, like the GunCon can, and track accurately, so that would be expected. But in cases where the methodology you use can track as well, it should. --- Quote ---7) Distance to the TV: However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy. --- End quote --- There's a bit of a fly in that ointment. If the user changes proximity to the display while the image is incomplete, the reference size changes as well. How much a step in either direction would affect accuracy is something you would need to test for. --- Quote ---8) CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns. --- End quote --- It's not that console guns are necessarily more advanced, it's that higher frequency displays, multiple resolutions, etc, are harder to deal with with, and honestly, the market really isn't that large for CRT lightguns. You'll find much more interest here for a CRT solution than in the general gaming marketplace. If nothing else, hopefully I have given you some food for thought. But if you are looking for that thing which would be the most effective in turning the tide in your direction, some raw, unedited footage of you "kicking ass" for several rounds in TimeCrisis, Point Blank, etc., without on-screen cursors, would be it. It would also be helpful if you honestly divulged the conditions and/or restrictions under which you operated to achieve this. Also note that "I suck at lightgun games" wouldn't be a valid excuse for not doing this. If this is the case, you probably wouldn't know what constitutes a good lightgun. :) |
| pbj:
I would be careful about posting anything too specific about the technology behind this. This hobby has had upstarts rubbed out by existing vendors with more resources and name recognition. |
| Malenko:
--- Quote from: pbj on June 26, 2018, 01:37:27 pm ---I would be careful about posting anything too specific about the technology behind this. This hobby has had upstarts rubbed out by existing vendors with more resources and name recognition. --- End quote --- I hope you aren't alluding to the Howler board. |
| MrLightgun:
--- Quote from: RandyT on June 26, 2018, 11:20:34 am ---Thanks for joining the discussion. I have some questions/comments, but keep in mind that I own and shoot actual guns, am ex-military, have been playing lightgun games for as long as they have been a thing and own a dedicated 37" RGB CRT setup for Guncon games on PS2. My bar is admittedly high. --- Quote from: MrLightgun on June 26, 2018, 06:39:47 am ---1) Accuracy: The accuracy is perfect, if you truly understand the concept then you should understand the accuracy is perfect. --- End quote --- I understand that accuracy could be as perfect as the hardware and methodology allows, but the demonstrations of your device are weak in the "typical use scenario" department. Also, "perfect" as in perfect, or perfect in relation to a GunCon? Wiimote? ?? What is your reference for quality? Do you, or have you owned and used an actual good CRT-based lightgun? Do you know, and can you accurately express the limitations of your product against other products? I.e. typical marketing due diligence. --- Quote ---2) Lag: In normal usage you don't need the crosshair (because it's super accurate without calibration). --- End quote --- Small lag, while important, isn't a showstopper, as long as the gun reliably fires in the location at which it is being aimed. There are a lot of coarse human motor functions going on, which should give the hardware time to "get there" before the trigger is pulled. As for calibration, how would you be able to deal with varying resolutions and possible image cropping without calibration of some sort? I'm sure it's possible, but the question is specifically if you have taken this into consideration and accounted for it? I understand that the on-screen frame can mitigate this, but what about cases where it cannot be used? --- Quote ---3) Original Vagueness: Yes this was a mistake, I thought the internet would enjoy debating how it worked but in fact it meant people said it was fake or too good to be true! --- End quote --- This is to be expected with any new product. The difference is that you are soliciting funds for something which does not exist currently for sale. There can be no "early adopters" which can generate positive "word of mouth" about the product. At this point, it exists only as a prototype and a promise. Skepticism with such things is the order of the day. This means that you need to do all of the things a typical consumer might do with your product, and prove to investors (that is what they are) that what you are doing is real and effective in those cases. --- Quote ---4) General performance: The gun just works, it doesn't get confused, it's accurate and fast. --- End quote --- It's a good sign that you have confidence in your invention. It's of paramount importance that this be the case. So my question to you is: if you are really confident in your claim that this device is a game changer (and it very well could be) why do you not believe in it strongly enough to finance it's development on your own? Have you sought any IP protection? Looked into a business loan? Approached any videogame peripheral companies? If I had a game-changing, mass-marketable technology which blows everything else "out of the water", crowd-funding wouldn't be my first move, at least before filing a provisional patent and exploring it's mass marketability through established players in those markets. Sans those actions, through KickStarter, you have given those same companies, with vastly more resources, a roadmap to to bring your product to market well before you can. --- Quote ---5) Cost of product / Kickstarter target: The device needs good quality components to work and therefore the margin on the gun is not huge. Therefore I need a high target to pay for all the bits that need paying for. Not sure what alternative I have, I've tried to be as honest as possible. --- End quote --- This is understandable. You need molds, and they alone have significant costs. On the flip side, it may be unreasonable to expect investors to bear the entire risk of the project, without a demonstration by you that you personally have something significant to lose if it fails. I don't know if it does, but if that figure includes a "paycheck" to you for the next year while you continue development, you might have a tough road ahead. --- Quote --- 6) My hypothesis is that Lightgun games have disappeared because the current technology does not give the same user experience and therefore is not as fun. The key is missing the line of sight functionality (Wii) or having to calibrate (PS3 Move, Aimtrak etc) which seems to be widely accepted is not 100% effective. --- End quote --- Your hypothesis is not incorrect. If you need a cursor on the screen, it's not what it used to be. My concern with this statement is your comparison to PS3 Move, rather than the true lightgun solution that is the GunCon II. That is the bar against which you should be basing your performance comparisons, if your goal is to correct for the case in your hypothesis. I have no doubt that it won't stack up, as it really can't, given the difference in the technology. But "as good" under the conditions allowed by the different technology, would be an excellent start. I.e. your method makes it impossible to hold the gun 6" from the display, like the GunCon can, and track accurately, so that would be expected. But in cases where the methodology you use can track as well, it should. --- Quote ---7) Distance to the TV: However if this is key functionality the software can identify the width of the tv frame when you have the whole tv in the frame and therefore when it gets chopped off still base it's calculations off of the larger size and therefore give accuracy. --- End quote --- There's a bit of a fly in that ointment. If the user changes proximity to the display while the image is incomplete, the reference size changes as well. How much a step in either direction would affect accuracy is something you would need to test for. --- Quote ---8) CRT: It should work on CRT, I never really thought of the demand for this because I thought original lightguns would have this covered but I guess the PC solutions are not as perfect as the more advanced console lightguns. --- End quote --- It's not that console guns are necessarily more advanced, it's that higher frequency displays, multiple resolutions, etc, are harder to deal with with, and honestly, the market really isn't that large for CRT lightguns. You'll find much more interest here for a CRT solution than in the general gaming marketplace. If nothing else, hopefully I have given you some food for thought. But if you are looking for that thing which would be the most effective in turning the tide in your direction, some raw, unedited footage of you "kicking ass" for several rounds in TimeCrisis, Point Blank, etc., without on-screen cursors, would be it. It would also be helpful if you honestly divulged the conditions and/or restrictions under which you operated to achieve this. Also note that "I suck at lightgun games" wouldn't be a valid excuse for not doing this. If this is the case, you probably wouldn't know what constitutes a good lightgun. :) --- End quote --- Thank you taking the time to write such a large detailed post. I'm going to respond to all your questions which seem entirely reasonable. 1) Accuracy: Yes point noted I should be careful using the term perfect. What I meant is that all other LCD solutions infer the position so are having to guess and make approximations to predict the position. Because the Sinden Lightgun reads its position directly against the television display it is basing its position on factual data every single reading with no assumptions. This allows it to be as accurate as the hardware allows which I believe is already more accurate than you would realistically need in a game. My definition of perfect would be when you look down the barrel of the gun that the crosshair is exactly in line with that. In this context ignoring light bleed or any other issues I am unaware of I would consider a CRT lightgun of the later generation perfect. 2) Calibration: the gun currently works based on a rectangular outline, in general to start with if you can't add that it doesn't work. Of course given more time I can add more cleverness to the software/technology to work in alternative circumstances but for now I'm happy to accept this as a negative of my product. There are going to be very few circumstances you can't add a border to either an existing game or a brand new game. Resolution is irrelevant to the concept as is image cropping as long as you put the border around the correct play area it is fine. 4) I have already invested significant time and money into the project unfortunately I don't have the huge sums of money that I think the productionization needs. My belief was that Kickstarter was perfect for this. Every thread I read has people crying out for LCD Lightguns so I thought people would be happy to support the project. The whole point of Kickstarter is that it gives you the guaranteed sales in advance which makes a lot more sense than a bank loan. 5) The risk of delivering 2000+ electrical products would already be absorbed by myself. I would be liable for any shortfalls. Kickstarter has no responsibility but the project owner has full legal responsibility. There is no room in the budget for a pay cheque. If there is any cash left over, the commitment was to focus on getting software drivers written for other operating systems. I really don't think £250k will go as far as people think. 6) Yes, good point, if my goal is to bring back that experience people had on the CRT then that hardware should be the target. The distraction is that people immediately post these LCD products as delivering everything people want so the conversation immediately goes in that direction. 7) Yes but as soon as you capture a complete frame again then it should be back on target. Please remember that I outlined this on the fly as a way for the technology to resolve the issue. Not a tested and proven solution / commitment. 8) My project is specifically focused on LCD because I consider CRT Lightgun technology as fit for purpose. I don't really want to argue my case against a guncon because I think it does the job great, just not on an LCD. I want people to play Lightgun games in their living room and I think this could mean new games get made which is my ultimate goal. 9) Unedited game footage of me kicking ass without cursors....... Virtua Cop Enjoy my friend, although kicking ass may be a stretch :-p Appreciate the time and thought put into the suggestions. Mr Lightgun |
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