loosing sync on my Egret 2

[OlDirty]

Hi everyone

I just got familiar with Groovy mame and tried to set up my system. I use a desktop PC with a Radeon HD6450 graficcard which is connected with a J-Pac to my Egret 2 arcade cabinet.

The problem is, that it's completely out of sync as you see in the video down below.



What i did so far:
Installed the Windows 7/8/8.1/10-64-bit + CRT Emudriver 2.0 beta (ATI/AMD Radeon HD 2xxx to R9 series) as descrived in this thread
https://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052 .

Flashed my Radeon card with the ATOM 15 program (selected 15kHz and 25kHz)

opened VMMaker and chose the Nanao MS9-29 setting (should be the correct one for Egret 2 cabinet). I started the PC and it was out of sync. I unpluged and pluged the VGA cable and after several tries i had a "stable" picture. The problem was that it was a pit shaky so i thought let's try the "Arcade 15.7kHz" setting in VMMaker. What a mistake. Now the picture looks like this and unplug and plug in the VGA cable doesn't help anymore. Any advice how i could solve that problem? 
Is it normal that in windows the picture is a bit shaky even you chose the correct settings?

I also tried to solder the sync connections as mentioned in this thread, but it didn't solve my problem. 
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=152488.0

[alex2005]

Have you tried with the generic 15khz, rather than the arcade 15khz setting?

[OlDirty]

Problem is, how can i change the settings if i can't see anything 

[alex2005]

are you sure the jumpers on jpac are correctly set?
can you boot in recovery mode?  afaik recovery should be at 640x480.

[yo1dog]

Plug an LCD another into one of the other outputs of your graphics card. This way you can see the desktop. I recommend setting up Remote Desktop so you can control your PC even if you can't get a display.

[Calamity]

The video on youtube clearly looks 15 kHz, however sync is obviously off. First of all, try adjusting the H-freq potentiometer on the monitor chasis. If that doesn't work, then it might be a sync polarity mismatch, which can probably be fixed on either end (VMMaker or monitor chasis/jumpers).

[OlDirty]

Thanks for all the help! I pluged in a LCD Monitor (DVI Port) and got a picture again. I tried the Nanao MS9-29 and the Generic 15kHz setting in VMMaker, but it just doesn't wanna sync with my Egret. The thing is my cab won't be for MAME only. I have plenty of PCBs which i also wanna play on this cab and the PCBs run all perfect. So if possible i don't wanna mess around with my H-freq potentiometer. 
The jumpers on the J-Pac have absolute no influence on the result i get on the screen. I can jump none, just the 15KHz or the 15kHz and 24KHz with the same result.

What i tried yesterday was to solder on the J-Pac. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=152488.0
Maybe this was the solution, but i desoldered it again because at the beginning i also had no sync with that.

[Calamity]

So if possible i don't wanna mess around with my H-freq potentiometer. 

It's the first thing you need to discard, otherwise this is a waste of time. It is possible to adjust H-freq so both MAME and pcbs sync. If you've only used pcbs then chances are the pot is adjusted too low.

Using a JPAC already discards the other sync issues (composite/separate).

Don't use the Nanao preset until you figure out everything. Use the arcade_15 one instead. I think there is an autoswitch version of the MS9-29 and one that's not, the preset is only valid for the autoswitch version.

[Sledge]

Plus i'm pretty sure getting to the h-sync pot is ultra easy on the Egret isn't it?

[OlDirty]

I have no idea where the h-sync pot is, but i'll figure that our tonight i hope. Thank you guys for the help 

[OlDirty]

This happens when i turn on the H.H.15 in both directions.       Can't stop the picture rolling

[Twin-X]

Yes i have found a soul mate

I also have an egret 2 with JPAC and Groovymame, Exactly the same sync issues.

*i have picture, adjusting the jumpers on the jpac (only 15khz jumper) fixed it.
Now to find out to get rid of the flicker i think my ini file is wrong.

[OlDirty]

In my case the Jumpers (15kHz, 24kHz, 31kHz) on the J-Pac have no influence at all. No sync whatever jumper setting i choose 

[Calamity]

I need to ask this, sorry: your JPAC is properly powered through the USB connector, isn't it?

[buttersoft]

Assuming the J-Pac is correctly connected...

It's rare for a J-Pac not to sync properly, but not impossible. You could try bypassing it and combining sync for yourself to test whether the J-Pac or the chassis is the problem. It’s probably just the pair together. The issue with leaving out the j-Pac in the long term is that you lose both 15kHz protection and video amplification. The former can be replaced with Atom-15, and for the latter you might try either turning up the video pots on the chassis or using a THS7316 or similar IC.

To combine sync for yourself you would get a VGA breakout, or build one. You feed the colours directly into the chassis – if you can’t see anything, turn up the screen pot on the flyback and all the video pots. Each sync line can go into a 500R resistor and then a 1k potentiometer, then combine into a third 1k potentiometer set to zero at first. Dial the first two pots around and see what you can get. If you get a stable image, replace the pots with resistors. Once stable, dial up the third pot as far as you can – if it tops out, add a 1k resistor and do it again.

This is pretty ghetto, but every Arcade, TV or PVM chassis I’ve ever tried it on has worked. If you’re not happy with it, something like an extron 190f might work as well. But if the above doesn’t sync first, I doubt the extron will. And you may still need video amplification of some sort – you shouldn’t need to amplify sync though.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=62265

[Sledge]

In my case the Jumpers (15kHz, 24kHz, 31kHz) on the J-Pac have no influence at all. No sync whatever jumper setting i choose 

Does the sync light come on on the J-Pac?
As Calamity says above.. you DO have it connected correctly as per instructions?

[OlDirty]

I could finaly test again and it looks like this on the Jpac when Windows is running.

Is this normal that it looks like this when the PC is booting (see video). I patched my Radeon card with Atom 15. I just wanna be sure everything is ok and i don't harm my arcade chassis.

[Sledge]

Yes, the sync lights are on, so that's ok...
But if you have successfully flashed an atom15 bios to that card it should have a stable picture during boot as well.
Whether what is being shown will damage anything or not i don't know.

[funkycochise]

did you try to output a picture before you flashed the video card ?

[OlDirty]

No i haven't tried it before flashing the card. Was anxious to destroy my chassis so i flashed it before i first tried. Do you think the flashing went wrong?

I also connected now my PC to my Egret 3 and got the same unsynced picture. Connected it the same way as i tried it with my Egret 2 (over J-Pac).

[Calamity]

Hi OlDirty,

Please read the following and consider answering the specific questions.

1.- Are you sure your monitor can switch automatically between 15 and 25 kHz?

This is the super important question you need to find an answer to.

If you are not sure, then don't use presets that use 15 and 25 kHz at the same time.

This goes for ATOM-15. You said you marked 15 and 25 kHz. This will force the boot sequence to 25 kHz. If your monitor's chassis is configured to use 15 kHz, then it won't sync.

2.- Have you ever used that monitor successfully with a different source? E.g. an arcade pcb. If so, which frequency was it using?

[OlDirty]

Hi Calamity

1.- Are you sure your monitor can switch automatically between 15 and 25 kHz?
I guess my chassis is not an automatic switching one. It has no relais as the automatic switching chassis have. Got this information here: https://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?t=21831
My chassis is the one in the attached picture.

Do i have to flash the card again for 15kHz only with ATOM 15? Is this possible?

2.- Have you ever used that monitor successfully with a different source? E.g. an arcade pcb. If so, which frequency was it using?
Yes i used this chassis with many Cave PCBs, CPS2 games, 1942 and Gunbird 2. Was running always fine with these PCBs.

[Calamity]

Do i have to flash the card again for 15kHz only with ATOM 15? Is this possible?

Sure, just mark the 15 kHz checkbox only and patch the bios.

[funkycochise]

Egret 2 chassis may work in 15K or 25K but with manual switching.
using a JammaSD or a JPac prevents normally from sending wring frenquency
so video card flashing is in my opinion useless.

I still don’t understand what you are seeing if you’re outputting 25K,
and that your Jpac allows only 15K.

Anyway, bring back your card in original state to sort your troubles out.

[OlDirty]

I'm going crazy. Now i can't even get a picture with a normal PC monitor over DVI or HDMI. Maybe the only solution is to throw that PC out of the window  How should i flash the card if i can't even see anything.

[Calamity]

Someone please tell OlDirty how to manually switch his chassis to 25 kHz so he can reflash his video card. Or, use a motherboard with 2 pcie slots and flash your video card while using an unflashed one.

[buttersoft]

Someone please tell OlDirty how to manually switch his chassis to 25 kHz so he can reflash his video card. Or, use a motherboard with 2 pcie slots and flash your video card while using an unflashed one.

Could post up in the monitor/video subforum for the former...

[Zipper]

Someone please tell OlDirty how to manually switch his chassis to 25 kHz so he can reflash his video card. Or, use a motherboard with 2 pcie slots and flash your video card while using an unflashed one.

There is a plug in the purple box in the image a few posts back. Unplug that and put it on the empty socket directly next to it. Both sockets are labelled (15khz and 25khz). Just plug into whichever mode you want to use.

[OlDirty]

I changed the plug to 25kHz on the Chassis aaaaand... No pic. It's even worse 

[Calamity]

The JPAC led doesn't sync. I'd start from scratch:

- Set your monitor back to 15 kHz.
- Flash your card back with its original BIOS. You need to do this in a separate computer with 2 pcie slots and another normal video card that acts as primary card so you can see what you do.
- Then start again, use VMMaker, EDID emulation, etc. And NEVER flash the card until you have the other stuff figured out. And only mark 15khz when flashing.

[OlDirty]

I exchanged the grafic card with an exact same new one . I ordered 2 of these because i wanted to set up 2 PCs. Maybe i won't setup one . The result after i exchanged the card can be seen here. Unfortunately it didn't change f. anything. 



on the desktop in Display->Resolution it shows the correct LCD Monitor which is connected on the DVI port. So i didn't let CRT EMUDRiver run again.

VMMAKER:

i tried these 3 settings (Arcade 15.7kHz, Generic 15.7kHz, Nanao MS9-29) and got no sync in any mode. VMMAKER Settings can be seen in the pictures.

Could it be that my game PCBs use a voodoo doll so MAME won't work on my Arcade machine?!?

[Calamity]

Select arcade_15 on the correct output, then generate and install modes. It won't probably change anything but I want to discard non-working edid emulation.

Also, try disconnecting and reconnecting the JPAC's usb cable, with everything on.

Anyway if possible try feeding an lcd with the output from the vga connector, if you're lucky enough it should tell you the frequency that's being output (it should be 15 kHz).

[OlDirty]

Ok what i did so far.

VMMAKER
Monitor Settings:
I selected Arcade 15.7kHz

Video Card:
Device: \\DISPLAY 2...
Output: Analog_0

Then i pressed generate modes and install modes.

I connected a LCD Monitor via VGA Cable and got the message "15kHz out of Range". Then i connected my Egret 2 and the picture wasn't synchronized. I disconnected and connected the USB Cable of the JPAC but it didn't change anything. Picture just got a bit darker when i unpluged the USB cable. I also tried that with the VGA cable but no sucess.

I also connected this PC to my Egret 3 which has a tri sinc chassis and got the same result. No synchronized picture.

[cools]

Going to go out on a limb and suggest your J-PAC is faulty. I've had one go bad like this in the past.

Try your Egret 3 with direct VGA.

[Calamity]

I'm with cools.

[funkycochise]

yes, experience shows that every single part of the chain must be checked
separately. Don’t you have access to a jammaSD to borrow ?

[OlDirty]

Unfortunately i have no JammaSD (is it the same as the J-Pac?) to borrow. I just found this information and it seems the same  https://www.google.com/search?q=jammaSD&client=firefox-b-ab&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Du_3ruSlwcHdJM%253A%252C3z8sYKlSKD1zMM%252C_&usg=__kc5ui4qtvQtIqkQUEXADs8Dg8VE%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIusGHkJzbAhWF6CwKHS7kDH0Q9QEINTAB#imgrc=jYZAm40Mg6TCtM:

I bought the J-Pac brand new.
Anyway i would like to connect my PC to the Egret 3 to check if the J-Pac is faulty. Can i just connect the chassis with the black VGA cable to my PC or do i have to put thet big PCB in between? Sorry for this noobish question, but i don't wanna brick my Egret 3 chassis  .

[cools]

Either. That PCB is just a pass through

[OlDirty]

I pluged my Egret 3 directly to the PC via the VGA cable aaaand?!? I have a picture  , a synchroniced one  . It's a bit shaky in Windows mode, but i think that's normal. Mame still doesn't run so i can't check more. During start up the chassis doesn't sound healthy. A strange chirp comes from the chassis. Is that dangerous or just normal?

So i guess my new J-Pac is broken, nice  . Right?

Will have to buy 2 new J-Pacs for my Egret 2 and Egret 3.

Thanks everybody so much for your help. I nearly gave up on that project.

[cools]

On my E3 I just use the interface board you've shown and a JVS-PAC for controls, and plug the VGA directly into the PC. The GPU is ATOM15 patched.

i also run in 31k only with fake scanlines, to avoid modeswitching too much.

[OlDirty]

Can i ask you why not using a simple J-Pac combined with a speparate audio amp instead of the JVS-Pac and the interface board?

A new JVS board should is developed.
https://irkenlabs.com/33-second-iteration-of-the-jvs-pac-2

[cools]

The interface board is an audio amp and kick harness adapter. Its particularly designed for chucking a PC type board into that cab.

[OlDirty]

The most common cause of this type of issue with using software methods to generate 15Khz scan is the sync pulse width is out of spec, ie too narrow. This can confuse the J-PAC but work direct to some monitors which might be OK with out of spec pulses.

I just had a email conversation with the shop i bought my module and they think it's unlikely that the J-Pac is faulty. What you guys think? Anything else i could try?

[Calamity]

I just had a email conversation with the shop i bought my module and they think it's unlikely that the J-Pac is faulty. What you guys think? Anything else i could try?

I agree it's unlikely that the JPAC is faulty, but it's not impossible. That's why we started testing everything else.

I have a JPAC in my cabinet and I'm using the same software. Hundreds of people. And your JPAC's leds are lit, so it's recognizing the syncs.

Can you borrow another JPAC from someone in your area?

[OlDirty]

Unfortunately i don't know anybody else here. But thanks for your opinion.

[Malenko]

Unfortunately i don't know anybody else here. But thanks for your opinion.

where is "there" ?

[OlDirty]

Switzerland. But i guess i have to buy a new one and hope for the best 

[OlDirty]

Just got my second J-Pac yesterday aaaand?!? Still no sync    What the hell is wrong with my setup...

[cools]

This happens when i turn on the H.H.15 in both directions.       Can't stop the picture rolling

Okay, I'm suspicious of this now. One - 5 seconds is very fast to turn an MS9 HH pot, it takes a moment to find sync so it's possible you are turning too fast, but also it doesn't look like there's any real change to the rolling.

On your Egret 2: Plug some normal PCBs in. Turning the pot all the way in either direction should make them desync, and you can move the pot back to make them resync afterwards.

If it doesn't desync at all then something is broken.

[OlDirty]

I tried again the potentiometer H.H.
Here in the video i turn the potentiometer clockwise till i have no picture anymore and then back again. Problem is, that i first turned the "PARA" in all directions. A cable was covering a potentiometer and so i thought that's the H.H.  . What does this "PARA" potentiometer? Can i just turn it again?

[Calamity]

I'm almost sure it's a problem with c-sync not going to the right pin in the chassis for some odd reason. JPAC already mixes H & V syncs together and outputs proper negative c-sync. Usually that signal must be fed to the H pin in the chassis. You should see a connector with 5 pins: R, G, B, GND, H, V.  Usually the V wire is only used for separate sync, not your case. In your situation, I'd put a new wire directly from the JAMMA H sync pin right to the H pin in the chassis.

[OlDirty]

OK if the last solution is to solder on my chassis i'll give up. My PCBs are running fine and I won't mess around with my precious Egret 2 chassis. It's a pitty, but i still have an Egret 3 for the horizontal Games.
Thanks really a lot for everybodys help and sorry that i come to an end here.

[Calamity]

No worries, it's understandable.

Anyway just in case check this. It's probably totally unrelated but it shows how sometimes non-standard wiring or connectors can be the cause of inexplicable issues.

[funkycochise]

this sample video show my egret2 running groovymame for amstrad cpc emulation.

I use calamity’s groovymame since few years now on my stock egret 2.
Hd5450 + jammaSD, direct vga plug from video card to jammaSD input.
I’m working in 15K only.

I hope it will put a bit of faith in your quest.

[Zipper]

Maybe try a good quality mini usb cable. I’ve had one delivered with a jpac that wasn’t able to power it properly.

[OlDirty]

I tried different USB Cables but no luck.
So i took this PC and connected it directly to the monitor cable of my Egret 3 and i have a synched picture. If i connect it via the J-Pac i have a unsynched picture again ( ), like on the Egret 2. So in my opinion there must be something with these J-Pacs or the software is not compatible with these J-Pacs. I have no idea. 

I know i could connect it directly but i would rather have it connected via Jamma and the J-Pac. Like this i can easy switch to normal PCBs.

[funkycochise]

Sell the j pacs, and go for Jamma SD

[OlDirty]

But the Jamma SD is more like a little stand alone "PC" which you connect to the Jamma plug, no? I already have a Raspberry PI which runs with Jamma but that thing has too less power. That's the reason i wanted to change to a PC with Groovy Mame. To have the most acurate emulation possible.

[Paradroid]

How are you with soldering? There are other DIY ways...

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[OlDirty]

I would say i'm good with soldering. I just don't wanna touch my chassis or change the wiring in my cabs.  So do you have an idea what i could try?

[Calamity]

There are things you can try before touching your cab's wiring.

Let's break out the problem. This is what we have:

- The JPAC leds are lit, this means it is receiving a correct sync signal.
- The JPAC outputs c-sync through JAMMA pin 13, solder side.
- There should be a wire that goes from there, directly to a pin in the chassis, usually the H-sync pin is used for c-sync.

So you need to check if that wire is where it should be, if it's interrupted by something, if it goes to the right pin, etc.

If you have an oscilloscope, then you could also check if there's a correct c-sync signal going into the chassis.

[OlDirty]

Thanks for your tips.

I measured the synch signal i get out of the J-Pac on Pin 13. I thought i check this first and if that's ok i go for the cables.

here's the pic. I hope that's clear enough.

scale: 1V  / 20 us

f= 1/ 64us = 15.625kHz

[funkycochise]

But the Jamma SD is more like a little stand alone "PC" which you connect to the Jamma plug, no? I already have a Raspberry PI which runs with Jamma but that thing has too less power. That's the reason i wanted to change to a PC with Groovy Mame. To have the most acurate emulation possible.

no, JammaSD is just a jpac alternative that is slightly the same :
jamma finger board, sound amplifier but video amplifier.
it also has video security via jumper.

and it’s cheaper and less fragile than jpac

http://www.smallcab.net/jammasd-jamma-converter-p-1053.html?language=en

I have no particular with this shop. He’s just serious and has reasonnable prices.

http://www.arcadeshop.de/images/specs/JammASD.pdf

[OlDirty]

Aha. I just found another board when i used google. That board looks really promising, even a audio amp is on board. Thanks 

I just recorded the sync signal which comes from my Neo Geo MVS board and that looks quite different than the one from the J-Pac 

[Paradroid]

I just recorded the sync signal which comes from my Neo Geo MVS board and that looks quite different than the one from the J-Pac 

Looks like your jpac is outputting positive sync whereas the MVS is putting out negative.

Is there a sync flip on the jpac? Can do it using Calamity's software if not.

[OlDirty]

No DipSwitch or jumper on the J-Pac. I don't know if a software negation is possible.

I just found something from here: https://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295

  - [Arcade OSD] Correctly assign sync polarity to AMD HD 5000+ cards. Because AMD documentation is wrong, VMMaker where assigning the polarities the wrong way. This must be the direct cause of most out-of-sync issues reported till now. What happened is that GM assigned positive sync instead of negative, and vice versa. This is fixed now, but you'll need to update your crt_range definitions. By default, negative sync (0) is what should be used in most cases. Thanks to intealls for doing proper checks with an oscilloscope and R-Typer for double-checking.

[Paradroid]

I don't know if a software negation is possible.

Mate, of course it is! H and V sync polarities are right there in the GroovyMAME monitor specs definitions.

Check the stickied posts...


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[Calamity]

Ok, your oscilloscope shots speak by themselves.

The JPAC combines syncs but it does not invert them, so definitely the video card is outputting composite sync (you can double check it by probing the H-sync pin of the VGA output). That's odd because, by default, VMMaker always creates negative syncs unless you configure it for positive polarities.

It might be happening due to a version mismatch, between Emudriver & tools. AMD has changed the related flags several times so that part of the software is a bit of a mess and somewhat based on heuristics.

So before inverting the syncs by means of the crt_range definition, my advice is to reinstall the driver, making sure you pick the newest version, not the one based on 12.6 (as it's shown in your screenshots some posts above).

That might alone solve the issue. It not, play with the polarity flags in the crt_range line (they can either be 0 or 1) and re-create the modes.

[OlDirty]

Thanks for the info. i hope we finaly found the misterious behaviour.
So would the Crimson 16.2.1 CRT Emudriver be the correct one?

[OlDirty]

I just wanna confirm that my system is running now fine. No synch problems anymore after i installed the Crimson 16.2.1 CRT Emudriver                  . Groovy mame is absolute awesome!! The games look stunning on my cabs. Thanks so much for all your effort!!
I have to read now all the instructions about all the mame settings to optimize my systems. Have to figure out how i can check if my groovy mame is running as it should (game speed, input latency,..).

[Paradroid]

I just wanna confirm that my system is running now fine.

So good to hear that you finally got there!

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