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Author Topic: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.  (Read 4343 times)

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Osirus23

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Now I'm not really a Billy Mitchell fan, but the stuff presented in this video as slam-dunk evidence doesn't really convince me, either. The loading difference between MAME and the real thing used repeatedly doesn't quite sell me, I don't know how the graphics would be loading in a different pattern when its all the same code. The claim that the DK and DK Jr. board swap out video is a little odd, too. I'm not disputing the claims, just scrutinizing them a bit. This has probably all been discussed here before, idk.

pbj

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2018, 10:51:50 pm »
I’ll be happy if I never hear about this clown or his damn video tape ever again. 

Ian

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2018, 11:22:48 pm »
Yeah, I tried to watch that a few days ago... To be honest I couldn't get through the whole thing. All I know is that Billy Mitchell is a good guy. He has done a lot for this hobby and this guys evidence is so speculative that it really doesn't pass the BS test.

Not to mention it's totally irrelevant since Billy doesnt even hold the DK record anymore. I don't even think he is top five. So why dish this crap out now?

Edit... He is #20

http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com/2011/11/official-top-20-donkey-kong-scores.html
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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2018, 12:39:12 am »
Anyone who wants more detailed info on MAME vs. DK PCB video generation and how that does, or possibly does not, relate to Billy's high score videos can check out this discussion over at the DK forums.

http://donkeykongforum.com/index.php?topic=2055

Disclaimer:  I haven't read all 14 pages of that thread, but the OP's claim that Billy's videos could only be generated by MAME appears to be accurate.


Scott

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2018, 04:28:21 am »
Am I a bad person if I don't care even a little bit about video game hi score record keeping?

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2018, 08:55:09 am »
Team Billy 4 Lyf



*Note: I hate cheaters. But when you’re going after a score that’s not even in the top 10, it seems petty and vindictive. Go out and get laid or something instead of wasting your time.
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Osirus23

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2018, 10:53:35 am »

Disclaimer:  I haven't read all 14 pages of that thread, but the OP's claim that Billy's videos could only be generated by MAME appears to be accurate.

FYI I'm not the one claiming that, the video is. I'm asking because, to me, the evidence presented in the video isn't as definitive as the creator makes it out to be. I'll check out the link.

Osirus23

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2018, 10:54:47 am »

Not to mention it's totally irrelevant since Billy doesnt even hold the DK record anymore. I don't even think he is top five. So why dish this crap out now?


Also irrelevant because as I recall the famous video in question wasn't actually accepted as a high score, that was just more BS from KoK, right?

pbj

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2018, 11:15:30 am »
And neither of them actually had the record when they were filming that movie... and the guy that actually had it was a weirdo that does grotesquely large breast implants.



Billy doesn't ever break character, I'll give him that.  Not sure if he's still getting invites to arcade shows anymore, but guaranteed you'll get a "Never surrender, never" autograph if he does.   ::)


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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2018, 03:31:35 pm »
Have no opinion on any Billy Mitchell Donkey Kong conspiracy, but what I do know, is him and Peter Dinklage might possibly be twins separated at birth.. Peter's character was a cheater in the movie Pixels... coincidence?? YOU DECIDE.

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2018, 05:04:24 pm »
Billy Mitchell.  I like the guy more and more as the hate flows.  He plays a character, and does a damn good job of it.  Haters gonna hate.

Haze

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 09:49:17 pm »
The logic behind it all checks out and does actually make sense.

Real PCB updates the screen at the moment video memory changes, MAME updates the screen at the end of the frame.

MAME does have a mechanism for updating exactly when the video memory changes, it's called 'partial updates' and a lot of games rely on such for split-screen raster effects, however, implementing it demands more accurate timings across the entire driver otherwise it can result in additional glitches (and implementing it properly will make the emulation slower, the amount by depending on the general complexity of the system)  MAME does eventually need to improve to that level of accuracy, and some drivers already have been, even if nobody has really noticed it happening because if done correctly, the only visible difference is things like you see in this video.

The irony is, unless there was some other form of cheating going on, for which no evidence has been put forward, it would actually be slightly more difficult in MAME anyway due to the single added from of input latency you're guaranteed with any emulator.  The problem is basically one of trust, a claim was made that an original DK PCB was being used, presumably only because he wanted his score on the 'real hardware' leaderboard, not the 'MAME / emulator' one, but still, it's problematic.

Could of course also be a bootleg or xx-in-1 emulation based PCB with different behavior, but afaik his claims were always that it was authentic hardware.

lilshawn

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2018, 12:53:04 am »
welp, add another one to the "geezers who will do anything to protect their rep" pile.

also... glad i'm not THIS guy...


Ian

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2018, 01:33:27 pm »
Listen, I like Billy. He actually seems to be a very decent guy. My number one complaint was how he was portrayed in the King of Kong.

Look into how Billy went out of his way to help out the guys who found and recreated the lost Nintendo Arcade game Sky Skipper. Nintendo of America is like Fort Knox apparently and Billy helped these guys out by getting him in. I think that speaks volumes as a person.

This cheating is probably legit. But I still feel the Youtuber really went out of his way to ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on a guy who isn't holding any record for DK. And referenced King of Kong which really is a smear job.
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

lilshawn

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2018, 02:29:21 pm »
that's all it is really, youtubing for clicks. give people a reason to watch, like it or not....generally, if it's controversial or negative, it will incite people to watch it.

Haze

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2018, 03:24:25 pm »
It's interesting from a research point of view tho, and fits the theme of what is being done on a larger scale at the moment.

It's not only TG where scores are being questioned, but it's happening a lot in the Speedrunning community in general, with people looking at things the speedrunners, who have spliced videos together, might not have considered, things that just *can't* happen after verification of the game code, subtle game state issues like how an indicator displays before / after a cutscene and the like.

If anything, since it's a high profile thing (they made a movie about it afterall) Billy has simply got caught up in all of this, and caught out in a way he probably never considered over what was probably just a bit of a white lie to get on a different 'authentic' leaderboard rather than clear cheating.  Might just be a case of cutting corners, thinking nobody would ever notice.

The keeping of MAME scores is a messy subject anyway tho, some people still swear by version 0.106 for example, even if it's shown that MANY games have much more incorrect emulation than this back then, and the scores aren't actually comparable as a result.  Really any place tracking MAME scores should be insisting on a current version for new scores because it's impossible to keep track of every potential bugfix over the years, all scores recorded with an older version should be up for review to see if anything has changed in the emulation.  I can see why TG keep separate tables, but really even that doesn't tell the whole story, there's a massive emulation quality difference between playing something on a current version and a 10-15 year old version.

It's also an interesting subject in that it highlights where MAME is failing to be 100% accurate, in ways people might not have noticed, which gives something to aim for, and something to properly demonstrate when it does get fixed (even if all people will likely moan about is 'slower emulation')

Ian

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2018, 04:22:25 pm »
It's interesting from a research point of view tho, and fits the theme of what is being done on a larger scale at the moment.

It's not only TG where scores are being questioned, but it's happening a lot in the Speedrunning community in general, with people looking at things the speedrunners, who have spliced videos together, might not have considered, things that just *can't* happen after verification of the game code, subtle game state issues like how an indicator displays before / after a cutscene and the like.

If anything, since it's a high profile thing (they made a movie about it afterall) Billy has simply got caught up in all of this, and caught out in a way he probably never considered over what was probably just a bit of a white lie to get on a different 'authentic' leaderboard rather than clear cheating.  Might just be a case of cutting corners, thinking nobody would ever notice.

The keeping of MAME scores is a messy subject anyway tho, some people still swear by version 0.106 for example, even if it's shown that MANY games have much more incorrect emulation than this back then, and the scores aren't actually comparable as a result.  Really any place tracking MAME scores should be insisting on a current version for new scores because it's impossible to keep track of every potential bugfix over the years, all scores recorded with an older version should be up for review to see if anything has changed in the emulation.  I can see why TG keep separate tables, but really even that doesn't tell the whole story, there's a massive emulation quality difference between playing something on a current version and a 10-15 year old version.

It's also an interesting subject in that it highlights where MAME is failing to be 100% accurate, in ways people might not have noticed, which gives something to aim for, and something to properly demonstrate when it does get fixed (even if all people will likely moan about is 'slower emulation')


All of this is true! I agree.... but don't forget Mame and other emulators have a Save State. That changes everything regardless of how well something is emulated.
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2018, 05:57:59 pm »
The funny thing is that emulation is actually the only way to assure a level playing field. There are so many ways a PCB (particularly the older ones that did a lot in hardware), can malfunction or be rigged to cause different results than another boardset.

A clock crystal can be slightly off (either slower or faster), and either state could benefit the player depending on the game. Running faster would mean that you could score more points per hour in marathon games, while running slower could make non-marathon games easier.  A dip switch could be defective or jumpered causing the game to run on different settings than normal, while looking like it was set correctly. This would be obvious in a lot of games, particularly with things like lives, but a difficulty change might sail by totally unnoticed, particularly if it is an obscure game or one with semi-random events.
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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2018, 06:36:41 pm »
I think the main issue is he wasn't honest about his scores being Mame scores, which they have a separate leaderboard for. Hes clearly an amazing player, and probably did get those high scores. But he wasn't competently honest about how it was done.

Osirus23

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2018, 06:48:00 pm »
I think the main issue is he wasn't honest about his scores being Mame scores, which they have a separate leaderboard for. Hes clearly an amazing player, and probably did get those high scores. But he wasn't competently honest about how it was done.

From reading the link posted earlier, the suspicion is that save states were used to piece together the runs. They claim the runs in question all have very generious RNG.

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2018, 06:52:50 pm »
I think the main issue is he wasn't honest about his scores being Mame scores, which they have a separate leaderboard for. Hes clearly an amazing player, and probably did get those high scores. But he wasn't competently honest about how it was done.

From reading the link posted earlier, the suspicion is that save states were used to piece together the runs. They claim the runs in question all have very generious RNG.

Well that would be bad indeed.

Haze

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2018, 07:21:19 pm »
I think the main issue is he wasn't honest about his scores being Mame scores, which they have a separate leaderboard for. Hes clearly an amazing player, and probably did get those high scores. But he wasn't competently honest about how it was done.

From reading the link posted earlier, the suspicion is that save states were used to piece together the runs. They claim the runs in question all have very generious RNG.

Just keep in mind that RNGs are very rarely random, and can be manipulated if you know how.  In some rare case they're based off open bus reads with an entirely different clock, so aren't related to gameplay, but in most games they're clocked by something that happens in the game, eg every time you jump / take a step it shifts a counter.

The difference between a good run and one that gets thrown away and forgotten can just be 'lucky' RNGs anyway.

That is however another way in which other speedrunners have been caught out in the past, RNG sequences that are literally impossible because how the game calculates them is fully understood and what is seen can't happen or defies astronomical odds over and over again.

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2018, 08:12:04 pm »
Never saw the film.

 What I can say... as hard as it is to admit... the Narcissistic Personality Disordered can be helpful at times.
They can also be completely destructive ...as well as self destructive.

  One collector I used to hang out with... always seemed like a nice guy.  Invited a lot of strangers into his house, for
an Arcade party,  which is how I met his,  and got into collecting.   However, if you say the wrong things to a
Narcissist.. such as simply disagreeing...  they can turn into a nightmare of constant attacks.

 I was able to shut down the torrent... and eventually things smoothed over.  (Which actually is a Rarity with a
Narcissist)

 Anyway... I rode with him and another collector friend to Funspot NH.   Pretty cool place...

 In the end,  we were playing Air-Hockey against each other.  Well, when this guy was about to be scored on...
he intentionally dropped his forearm down a hair,  and the puck stopped dead under his arm.   The claim was
"Accident",  but this happened about 20 times, easily, in a single game!  >_<

 Mind you... this is a grown Adult man!  Cheating on a game against some "Friends" !  >__<   I called him out on it
several times... but he would never concede nor apologize.  I became furious... not because I would often end up
losing because of it... but because it was so childish,  and it was a slap in the face of actual friendship.  I honestly
never cared if I won of lost... as to me,  the fun is in the playing... and enjoying time with good company...

 But to a Narcissist... its not any fun at all, unless you win 100%.  To them, their massive, but fragile... Egos are
FAR more important than anything else... including "friendship".

 They simply can not handle any form of Loss or humiliation... and they will go completely Bananas,  if they do
lose,  and or feel embarrassed / humiliated.   Or they are upset that you dont like the same things / say and or do the
same things,  that they say/do/like.   It becomes like a personal attack to their Identity.  (which is largely fake to begin
with).

 So... its not hard to imagine someone totally wrapped up in themselves... as cheating...  to maintain that false
illusion of  "Perfection".

 The Narcissist tend to have been formerly abused children... whom have mentally Cracked under the abuse.  The brain
sort of forms a split-personality...   and that 2nd persona,  is developed to act in a way that portrays confidence, strength,
skills, superiority, perfection...etc.   But deep inside,  they really are scared and weak little children... that never fully develop
into an Adult state.   Hence,  they do not have typical rational and logical thinking patterns.  And most of their good deeds,
are only done to gain themselves attention and more ego-boosting. 

 Most Narcissists, will not actually consider your friendship of much value.  And most of their "friends",  are shallow
acquaintances.  Its better to be shallow depth with the narc... because once they get to know you.. they find infinite things
to hate about you.. and attack you over.   You could be their so called friend for 20 yrs... and in a single opinion given,
they would instantly turn on you, and stab you in the back.  There is no real middleground.  Either they love-bomb you,
or they are slicing and dicing.

 These people come in different degrees / levels.   Some are less harmful / toxic than others.  Some are actually capable of
full out murder.  Others may have others attack you... via manipulations.  Most of their abused is indirect psychological abuse.
(as thats harder to pin them on)   But some go into physical abuse,  as well as a combination of both.

 Anyway... get educated in Narcissistic Abuse,  with their well known tactics and reasons.   It can greatly reduce the possibility of
becoming their next victim.

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 11:54:50 am »
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2018, 12:04:05 pm »
Take one of his posts about narcissists and drop in any ethnic/racial minority.  It's quite interesting how he blames one group for all the struggles in his life....


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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #25 on: February 21, 2018, 03:17:42 pm »
:dunno

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2018, 12:45:32 pm »
Am I a bad person if I don't care even a little bit about video game hi score record keeping?

The worst.
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We have cheat codes.

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Re: YouTube video accuses Billy Mitchell of cheating/using MAME in DK.
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2018, 06:55:27 pm »
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