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Author Topic: Robotron build sticks?  (Read 3502 times)

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opt2not

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2017, 07:18:18 pm »
Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

I don't know what gorillas are playing Robotron these days. But I have a Robotron cabaret sitting on laminate floors and I never seen anyone put that much force into working the joysticks to physically move the cabinet off it's position. It takes a lot of force to move these cabinets, I can't imagine people wrestling around with these 300 lbs. boxes using 2 small joystick handles as leverage.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2017, 08:12:06 pm »
It's a story I've heard from 3 different people in the engineering department from Williams. (John Newcomer the Joust dev, DeMar, and YellowDog)
They would put games out for employees to test and play during development phase.
The one in question being a Robo cabaret.  And one day a bigger guy robo-raged it into the wall by the sticks.

They must have been a rowdy crew as it was common to flat palm the bezel on Joust with a harsh thwack according to Newcomer.


Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

I don't know what gorillas are playing Robotron these days. But I have a Robotron cabaret sitting on laminate floors and I never seen anyone put that much force into working the joysticks to physically move the cabinet off it's position. It takes a lot of force to move these cabinets, I can't imagine people wrestling around with these 300 lbs. boxes using 2 small joystick handles as leverage.

opt2not

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2017, 08:37:03 pm »
And one day a bigger guy robo-raged it into the wall by the sticks.

So wait, he purposefully moved into the wall after losing? Or this happened during regular play?  Because there is a big difference.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2017, 08:59:24 pm »
And one day a bigger guy robo-raged it into the wall by the sticks.

So wait, he purposefully moved into the wall after losing? Or this happened during regular play?  Because there is a big difference.

Right. After play.

Mikes arcade used to sell heavy grommets like 8lb. They were rough and would leverage a machine around a bit depending on surface. Very tiring.


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pixel

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 11:46:51 am »
Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

I don't know what gorillas are playing Robotron these days. But I have a Robotron cabaret sitting on laminate floors and I never seen anyone put that much force into working the joysticks to physically move the cabinet off it's position. It takes a lot of force to move these cabinets, I can't imagine people wrestling around with these 300 lbs. boxes using 2 small joystick handles as leverage.

 Cabaret are lower,  and so the lower center of gravity,  should in theory,  make it actually more difficult to move around via the sticks.

 The full cab,  having more mass up top,  would make it more likely to slide around via stick pushes.


 That said... the casters being down,  and on what type of flooring does play a big factor in cabinet movement.   Carpet will often prevent
sliding pretty well due to friction...  so at best, the cabinet might tilt / rock... especially if the legs were not fully deployed and locked level.

 Where as a concrete, hardwood, epoxy... or other such smooth flooring... may result in a lot more sliding around.


 Moving a cabinet isnt always as it seems.   A lot of things are unconsciously happening.

 1)  A player may be causing a repeated rocking motion,  that builds in strength after a few oscillations... thus,  a push at just the right
moment in that oscillation,  can cause an already slightly moving cabinet mass... to move far more drastically.

 2)  The player may partially lean and or Bump his mass into the CP,  at the same time hes thrashing the sticks.

 3)  Rather than merely moving his arms... he may move his whole mass,  and unite them into his hands, at the perfect moment.


 Its sort of like water.   On its own... its soft,  fluid,  weak.   But when unified in force,  it can easily knock a person out cold (wave).
A 180 lb  guy,  moving all his mass.. at an high acceleration + speed... can equate to a lot of force.


 This is why most Arcade controls are ridiculously heavy duty in their construction.   Thick gauge metal, large / and or larger number
of carriage bolts, a lot of support bracing...etc.

pixel

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2017, 12:00:00 pm »
Good analogies.

Learning players will slam about.
Once you start sorting the chaos on the screen into the chess-like enemy dynamics
you'll figure out that Robotron has subtle ebbs and flows of offense and defense.
Slamming about on the sticks shows the player is being reactive and on the defense.

the master players use player position on the screen as a way to setup offense.
Positioning of straight line shots that are pre-emptive is another form of offense.

The slamming about becomes little part of the success once the finesse and efficiency is found.
Most of the firing success will be found in rolling the joystick from position to position.

Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

 You are speaking as if everyone is a 90% top tier level player.

 And even then... some of the best players are having moments where a quick reaction juke / dodge... is done with great acceleration
and force.   A lot of this happens at a subconscious level... especially when you just missed getting hit by a single pixel.

 Yeah... everyone whos played a decent amount of Robotron knows that most of the game is played using a circular like moving
pattern... rather than opposite directionals,  and or random movements.   However, there always comes that time when you must
react quickly, in the opposing directions.

 Even if the jolts of the sticks are not cabinet moving... they can still be a bit heavy and or extend further than needed.  This
is natural,  due to the curve of a persons extreme acceleration  "Twitch"  reactions.   Its why we over-built critical controls and
structures,  in our daily world.   Its also why we typically wear padded shoes... vs .. just walking on the frontal balls of our
feet (which is far more effective... yet difficult to maintain 100% of the time).

 The heavier rubber not only slows ones motion that goes too deep past the switch activation.. but aids in rebounding that
energy back to the players hand.. helping to accelerate it in the next motion hes in process of making... and all without that
harsh slam of solid hard materials transmitting into a players bones.


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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2017, 01:17:06 pm »
That reminds me of the Rockola game Nibbler.  They started with skinny shaft Wico's like you'd find on Frogger.
The devs were physically bending the joysticks so they went with the thicker Wico stick

Scottes

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2017, 02:25:06 pm »
I certainly rocked Robotron machines back and forth, back in the days before I began to learn how to play.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2018, 12:55:37 pm »
Just wanted to report back here that we did go with the Dominux8. So far they are pretty damn sweet!  Will come back if anything changes, but as of now it feels like we finally have some sticks we can build a cabinet around. Finally!

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2018, 04:57:25 pm »
Great!  Did you install the round restrictors as well for a shorter throw?  Or did you leave them stock?

I will install my new metal CP versions later this week.

DeL
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Scottes

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2018, 02:38:35 pm »
Great!  Did you install the round restrictors as well for a shorter throw?  Or did you leave them stock?
I recently got Dominux8 joysticks for my Robotron, but without the restrictors. The throw does seem too long. Are the restrictors something that can be done DIY? It seems silly to spend $6 on shipping for $6 worth of parts, and I'd bet that I have some appropriate plastic lying around. I just have no idea of the correct size or how to install them. Any help would be appreciated.

loupg

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2018, 03:42:54 pm »
not sure on size of the hole or anything like that, but I bought a dominux8 with the 4-way restrictor and it's installed in the top of the base, where the dust washer sits.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2018, 04:22:51 pm »
I recently got Dominux8 joysticks for my Robotron, but without the restrictors. The throw does seem too long. Are the restrictors something that can be done DIY? It seems silly to spend $6 on shipping for $6 worth of parts, and I'd bet that I have some appropriate plastic lying around. I just have no idea of the correct size or how to install them. Any help would be appreciated.

You could theoretically make your own with a piece of Lexan.  Just cut it to the size of the top of the joystick and make the hole size whatever you want.  This person did it and mentioned the hole size in the video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHtjw04-bdA

Mr. Peabody

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2018, 03:12:34 am »
This thread enthused me to turn on the cab and play some Robo, Blue label. 1.27M with heavy spring sticks. Especially after some recent learnings of strategy, I find the biggest factor in success is in shooting accuracy. One shot, one kill if i can. In lieu of that, some fancy movement comes in second (small zig-zags back and forth as I'm moving up/down/diagonal, quick turn-arounds, and moving toward and then away from baddies), though in some cases going right at them and clearing a path is necessary. Fatigue is imminent, though, and all the above are easiest with Wicos. Dom8, yeah, sluicy and loosey. Don't care for it.

LOTS of Wicos on ebay, by one guy in particular. Jeez, so many NOS.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WICO-arcade-Original-Genuine-Green-Leaf-Classic-8-Way-Joysticks-4-lot/222731954791?hash=item33dbdbea67:g:5VEAAOSwRqxZ4Q22

I think those are 90s design, as this one says 80s and is gray and square base.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wico-Original-Used-Red-Ball-JS-leaf-switch-classic-Arcade-Game-joystick/202160205681?_trkparms=aid%3D777003%26algo%3DDISCL.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D47301%26meid%3D80afa84a8f6849f99ea8efc42ae100c1%26pid%3D100013%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D222720253493&_trksid=p2047675.c100013.m1986
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 05:16:06 am by Mr. Peabody »

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2018, 08:50:00 am »
I think those are 90s design, as this one says 80s and is gray and square base.

Wico was doing massive production output in that arcade era.
The typical observation with Robotron is that the early production March-May 1982 stamped control panels have gray base 8 ways.
By summer and later production the wico bases were 8 way and black, with gray bases typically being the 4 or 2 way restrictors. (Tutankham 2 way stick on the right side I've seen in gray base)

If you really get granular you'll observe that the depths in the various bases vary by mm's one way or the other so grommets and the actuator might feel different per base.

The best recommendation is to buy the repop wico actuators from paradise arcade shop.  They are a bit shorter so it gives the spring an opportunity to actually be a spring in the shaft assembly.  If the actuator is too long it'll cause the spring to act like a lock washer, you'll know if it is the case because the e-clip will be wickedly difficult to insert during shaft assembly.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2018, 04:33:53 pm »
You could theoretically make your own with a piece of Lexan.  Just cut it to the size of the top of the joystick and make the hole size whatever you want.  This person did it and mentioned the hole size in the video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHtjw04-bdA
LOL, that was me.  At the time of publishing that video, there were no round restrictor options for the Dominux 8 sticks, at all.  So I fabricated my own.  But I shared my findings with Randy T and GGG and he was able to fabricate new ones and offer it to the arcade community.  $6 is cheap.  They were a pain in the rear to make myself and the Lexan I needed cost about the same (I wouldn't use plexi, since they are notoriously hard to drill due to cracking). 

However, I will say that since my design sits on top of the joystick base and not in it, I was able to keep the dustwasher inside.  Moving forward with Randy T's design, however, I need to be more creative (using spacers as someone else here pointed out a while back) in order to get the dustwasher to sit on top of the restrictor without getting jammed up by the control panel.  Or I may eliminate the dustwasher entirely since the restrictor acts as a dust washer partially at least.

DeL
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 04:35:27 pm by DeLuSioNal29 »
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Scottes

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2018, 09:48:15 am »
LOL, that was me.  At the time of publishing that video, there were no round restrictor options for the Dominux 8 sticks, at all.  So I fabricated my own.  But I shared my findings with Randy T and GGG and he was able to fabricate new ones and offer it to the arcade community.  $6 is cheap.  They were a pain in the rear to make myself and the Lexan I needed cost about the same (I wouldn't use plexi, since they are notoriously hard to drill due to cracking).
Thanks. I'm going to order some from GGG.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2018, 08:21:29 pm »
@1500points: Ahh, soooh

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2018, 08:06:39 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

loupg

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2018, 09:20:16 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2018, 10:08:27 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/
What do you mean what website?

loupg

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2018, 10:35:53 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/
What do you mean what website?

That's RandyT's website...

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2018, 10:46:45 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/
What do you mean what website?

That's RandyT's website...
"I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM "

opt2not

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2018, 11:43:53 am »
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?
RandyT runs a web store. If by trading you mean giving him money for products then yes, hes still trading.

Just go to groovygamegear.com and place an order through his site. Not sure what this confusion is all about.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2018, 12:04:29 pm »
Looks like you are confused as my message on the forum was clearly to Randy.
I certainly am not confused.
I'll wait for Randy to comment thanks for all the replies.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2018, 01:08:12 pm »
FFS people.  Keep it civil please and stay on topic.

Bengaz, have you tried contacting RandyT via e-mail?:  customerservice@groovygamegear.com

DeL
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Bengaz

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2018, 01:12:45 pm »
FFS people.  Keep it civil please and stay on topic.

Bengaz, have you tried contacting RandyT via e-mail?:  customerservice@groovygamegear.com

DeL
Yes mate I have thanks anyway. (hope the lad is ok?)

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2018, 01:14:36 pm »
I'm sure he's fine, I spoke to him recently.

I sent you a PM with him e-mail addresses.

DeL
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 01:25:20 pm by DeLuSioNal29 »
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2018, 07:56:28 pm »
LOL, that was me.  At the time of publishing that video, there were no round restrictor options for the Dominux 8 sticks, at all.  So I fabricated my own.  But I shared my findings with Randy T and GGG and he was able to fabricate new ones and offer it to the arcade community.  $6 is cheap.  They were a pain in the rear to make myself and the Lexan I needed cost about the same (I wouldn't use plexi, since they are notoriously hard to drill due to cracking). 

However, I will say that since my design sits on top of the joystick base and not in it, I was able to keep the dustwasher inside.  Moving forward with Randy T's design, however, I need to be more creative (using spacers as someone else here pointed out a while back) in order to get the dustwasher to sit on top of the restrictor without getting jammed up by the control panel.  Or I may eliminate the dustwasher entirely since the restrictor acts as a dust washer partially at least.

DeL

Thanks for creating that video DeL.  It was instrumental in my design and decision making process while creating my custom controller because it let me see the joystick in action and I learned a lot about how the gate on the Dominux8 works by watching your video and reading posts on this forum. 

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2018, 01:19:11 pm »
Glad you got that from the video, even though it was poorly lit with crappy audio, heh.  I have a follow up that I'm working on as we speak with better lighting, pro audio and comparisons of the wood vs. metal versions.  I'll finish up production this weekend (fingers crossed).

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2018, 05:06:10 pm »
Episode is done.  It goes live tomorrow, 1/19 @ 10am.   :applaud:

DeL
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