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Author Topic: Robotron build sticks?  (Read 3434 times)

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Donkey_Kong

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Robotron build sticks?
« on: November 24, 2017, 12:19:32 pm »
Robotron build sticks? I want to make a panel pretty much dedicated to Robotron.

There are a few threads out there for this subject, but there are new options out there these days.

Any opinions here I could work from? 
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chopperthedog

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 01:20:22 pm »
If you're serious about robotron the only way to go is 4" wicos in a wood panel with a 10" spacing.
All other options are like having sex with 6 condoms on. imho


good day.



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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2017, 01:26:22 pm »
All other options are like having sex with 6 condoms on. imho

I knew that girl in high school, too
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2017, 01:50:17 pm »
All other options are like having sex with 6 condoms on. imho

I knew that girl in high school, too

The one that was like throwing a hotdog down a hallway, yep I remember that one also.
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2017, 01:53:46 pm »
If you're serious about robotron the only way to go is 4" wicos in a wood panel with a 10" spacing.
All other options are like having sex with 6 condoms on. imho


good day.




https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WICO-Original-Genuine-Blue-Leaf-Classic-8-Way-Joystick-set-of-2/222720253493?hash=item33db295e35:g:LEkAAOSwbw1aDAfy

How about these?
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2017, 03:59:04 pm »





If you're serious about robotron the only way to go is 4" wicos in a wood panel with a 10" spacing.
All other options are like having sex with 6 condoms on. imho


good day.





https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WICO-Original-Genuine-Blue-Leaf-Classic-8-Way-Joystick-set-of-2/222720253493?hash=item33db295e35:g:LEkAAOSwbw1aDAfy

How about these?


That is a great price for brand new wico's.  For Robo, it is hard to beat a wico with a nice fresh light action grommet.

3.5in wico's work just fine for Robo, and the base is the same as you'd use for a 4in wico.
If you have a router, simply route 3/8in into the wood panel so you have 1/4 in left for the wico to butt up against.
Route a 3in diameter circle on the top that is 1/8in deep for the dust washer
Then put plexi over the top with a 1-1/8in hole for the shaft to move around in.

If you ever get the itch to add 4inch shafts you can get repops here- https://paradisearcadeshop.com/shafts/1041-robotron-reproduction-hollow-shaft-with-wico-ball-top.html

The history on the longer shafts was simply to help people from knuckle scraping the control panel.
You'll find that to properly finesse Robotron if you want to get really good you'll likely not palm the head of the shaft (say what....) you'll use finger tips for better control (that's not right either...)
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 04:11:53 pm by 1500points »

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2017, 11:34:13 am »
The 10" spacing is only important if you wrecked it on Robotron back in the day. I never played the game (other than on Atari 7800) until 2000 and I could care less about the 10" spacing.

While the NOS stock of 4" red handles is gone, there are a lot of powder blue and purple ones in that size floating around. Bob Roberts used to sell them for $2 or $3. Then I would just paint them red with plastic paint (lasts a lot longer than you think it would).
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2017, 04:49:33 pm »
Great info, thank you both!   :cheers:
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 10:24:48 am »
If you do route... you may consider making a metal mounting place... to give additional support and strength.

 Robotron is a very intense game... and the body mass + arms yanking on those sticks... often tended to move the entire cabinet.
It the wood is weak... the sticks could rip right out of the CP.

 If I were going to route wood... I would make metal plates similar to a trackball plate,  for each stick.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2017, 09:14:30 pm »
someone actually sells those on KLOV, the repro plates.

But I'm telling you from experience that 1/4 of pine will hold up to anything you put at the wico's, you'll want to use small carriage bolts to hold the joysticks in place obviously.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2017, 11:55:55 am »
Mental note taken, make sure control panel is a tough one, if not reinforced for joystick mount!    :cheers:
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2017, 02:17:29 pm »
You could also go with the Dominux 8's from www.GroovyGameGear.com They have grommets built in very similar to Wicos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alfRinUyhxc

Just make sure you get the proper ones (wood or metal versions) and get the round restrictor plate as well.  I have 4 of them on my Smash TV and love 'em (wood versions).  As a matter of fact, I plan to buy 2 more today for my Multi-Williams cab (metal versions).

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2017, 03:37:53 pm »
You could also go with the Dominux 8's from www.GroovyGameGear.com They have grommets built in very similar to Wicos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alfRinUyhxc

Just make sure you get the proper ones (wood or metal versions) and get the round restrictor plate as well.  I have 4 of them on my Smash TV and love 'em (wood versions).  As a matter of fact, I plan to buy 2 more today for my Multi-Williams cab (metal versions).

DeL

Thanks again Del.  Seems like a great alternative to the Wicos for sure!
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2017, 05:05:43 pm »
Happ Perfect 360s destroy Robotron, unfortunately they are impossible to find.
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2017, 05:32:50 pm »
You could also go with the Dominux 8's from www.GroovyGameGear.com They have grommets built in very similar to Wicos.

I'm not a fan of these compared to standard Wico's, they feel too mushy, the resistance is too light. Supposedly you can adjust them but I wasn't able get the one I bought to try in my Dig Dug cabaret to feel suitable and went back to a standard Wico.

If you don't have Wico's to compare them to or aren't overly particular you may be fine with them. Refurbed Wico's pop up on klov or ebay fairly often though, personally I'd go with that and the Paradise replacements before the Dominux, especially for a dedicated Robotron CP.
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2017, 07:51:03 pm »
^ This.

There was also someone on KLOV that was selling newly milled 4" shafts w/ balltops. It was a little while ago, so I'm not sure if he still doing that anymore.
But you could see if there is anyone over there that is selling these, or have spares from the last run of them.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #16 on: November 30, 2017, 08:39:52 am »
Happ Perfect 360s destroy Robotron, unfortunately they are impossible to find.

I had a set of those but they had heavy springs rather than grommets.  Exhausting to play after 40 waves.

The master Robo players will tell you that once they get in the zone, you become hyper aware of the leaf actuation points and the subtle feedback.  Becomes a very intimate opinion which is why you are also seeing so many opinions above.

I have had many sets of Wico leafs including multiple NOS sets.  I sold them all to friends who were more passionate about their wico robo experience than I was.  I currently have modded x-arcades with a custom restrictor plate but they are showing wear and getting "loose" feeling.

If you play beyond 100 waves you'll discover the magic of a 2lb wico grommet saving the forearms and shoulders.  (and also gets into where Toby suggested the 10inch width which is kinda-average for the typical human male build.  Ergonomics are king if you are playing the long game.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2017, 08:41:55 am »
^ This.

There was also someone on KLOV that was selling newly milled 4" shafts w/ balltops. It was a little while ago, so I'm not sure if he still doing that anymore.
But you could see if there is anyone over there that is selling these, or have spares from the last run of them.

That was AndrewB who also bought out the 2lb grommet stock from fleetwood and only sells the grommets with his refurbs.

I am told the new run of grommets from arcadeshop are very light, maybe even 1lb.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2017, 12:20:52 pm »
And, now we see just how subjective such things can be.

Hardcore Robotron players seem to love our Dominux8 sticks.  The grommet feel I aimed for is that of a broken-in Wico, as that's what I feel is the "sweet spot" to cover the majority of users.  Based on the comments above, I think it's the best we could have done :).

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2017, 12:28:39 pm »
Hardcore Robotron players seem to love our Dominux8 sticks.

Love it vs. other new joysticks perhaps but any truly 'hardcore' (what's considered hardcore btw?) Robotron player is going to prefer original 8-way Wico's over anything else.
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2017, 01:02:28 pm »
Love it vs. other new joysticks perhaps but any truly 'hardcore' (what's considered hardcore btw?) Robotron player is going to prefer original 8-way Wico's over anything else.

I won't presume to speak for all of them.  But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2017, 01:44:18 pm »
Many of the top Robotron players frequent the FB page called "Williams Defender Players Unite"

There is an emotional bias if the player was also a player in 1982 and has sentimental feelings.
It will and does make them irrationally attached to Wico, but that's just people stuff.

There has been plenty of mention of the Dominux as a solution on the page and I have never heard anything negative.
The price point keeps me from buying a set to toy with purely out of curiosity.

I'll point out that I helped Beta test the 2lb fleetwood grommets when he was working out the specs to request for the final run, and compared them to NOS wico grommets, in case you were curious of whether I know of what I speak.  :)
--------

Now as far as being a hardcore player that might mean you play hours a day like a crack fiend.

Or you can shoot for advancing your skills which is a lot based on your Robotron Quotient (RQ) of score divided by wave.
If you are a learning robo marathoner you'll be in the 27k-29k range, advanced 29k-31k, and masters play in the 32k-34k range per wave which means they die less and are able to bend risk vs reward to getting more humans while staying alive to get the progressive 5k bonuses.

If you think you are a master player, you'll at least need to be able to reach 1million/wave40 on difficulty 10.

If you think you are an extreme master, that's quite a mouthful to state and you'll have to match up to the very few people that have proven it. See here- http://www.robotron2084guidebook.com/gameplay/walkthroughs/extreme/
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 01:47:01 pm by 1500points »

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2017, 03:41:31 pm »
I won't presume to speak for all of them.  But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.

My generalization was based on the assumption that most serious players are looking for authenticity over feel, a true hardcore player is likely going to want to play the game as close to the way it was originally as possible. I understand it's highly subjective though and I'm sure there are plenty of people in both camps like any other debate here.

Or you can shoot for advancing your skills which is a lot based on your Robotron Quotient (RQ) of score divided by wave.
If you are a learning robo marathoner you'll be in the 27k-29k range, advanced 29k-31k, and masters play in the 32k-34k range per wave which means they die less and are able to bend risk vs reward to getting more humans while staying alive to get the progressive 5k bonuses.

Interesting, based on my RQ and a high score of ~3 million I'm in the advanced range but I'd say I get honorary 'hardcore' status for restoring my own original machine.  ;D 
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2017, 04:06:37 pm »

Interesting, based on my RQ and a high score of ~3 million I'm in the advanced range but I'd say I get honorary 'hardcore' status for restoring my own original machine.  ;D

He!! yah man!  Join the FB page and show us.  Many of the original WMS devs are there, too.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2017, 05:09:03 pm »
My kid and I are in newbie land, but it's certainly the go to game for mame cab.  My kid quickly became better than me and scores in the 500k + neighborhood.  This was back in the day on our u360's ..we want the real deal or close to it. I'm sure the dominix 8 would be fine for us.
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2017, 05:17:46 pm »
Lol @ the FB page questionnaire. :D

I signed up and am waiting approval. Would be nice to chat with some fellow Robotron masters. ;)

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2017, 09:02:01 pm »
And, now we see just how subjective such things can be.

Hardcore Robotron players seem to love our Dominux8 sticks.  The grommet feel I aimed for is that of a broken-in Wico, as that's what I feel is the "sweet spot" to cover the majority of users.  Based on the comments above, I think it's the best we could have done :).

i'm a 10 million player from back in the day. so i wouldn't call myself hard core.  i can't run forever.  i'm just trying to get 10 million again. lol  even had a robotron for a few years.  like a dummy, i sold it.  i remember crying because i paid $495 for it.  when tron, and tempest cost me $250 each and cocktail asteroids $60.  lol  anyway, after playing mame for years and years with cheap clickers.  i recently made a jrok machine with dedicated control panels.  i have dominux8's in there and am very happy.  i need to play on some wicos now to see what difference it would make to me.  i can't get to 10 million currently.  usually i get my way to 5-6 million.  the reasons just seem stupid unforced errors and crappy reaction time these days.  could it be the sticks?  need to find checkout the good arcades in my area.  last one closed and i only got to go once. :(

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2017, 10:10:47 am »
Bitd you likely played an arcade machine set at the blue rom default of 3.  Modern times people seem to like the recommended setting of 5 which was also the default on the red/orange/yellow first issue romset (color depends on fading of sticker).

The sticks arenít your problem.  Just figure out which wave type is causing most life bleeding.  Then clean up your strategy on it. 
The masters tend to average about one life lost per wave over a long game, or slightly less.

For example, you probably lose 3-4 men per brain wave?  Try getting that down to 1-2 by being more efficient with straight line firing technique....donít touch the side walls when lightning bolts are around...and in middle of wave when it is chaos run mostly in diagonals because you can outrun the lightning bolts at an angle.


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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2017, 11:20:52 am »
PS- for emulation players of Robo.

--console is hardest emulation (Digital Eclipse's first work which doesn't address some of the CPU/blitter stuff at all)
--also very hard/impossible is the ArcadeSD and chinese 19-1 pcb.
--old MAME is poorly emulated so it is tough.
--new MAME is better but still hard.
--you'll have to use a "hedged" version of newer mame to get as close as a PC experience can get which is still a bit off but quite enjoyable.
--JROK FPGA pcb is the way to go if you are a serious player.
--If you are a restorationist the original pcbs are fairly cheap nowadays since everyone has embraced the FPGA technology.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 11:48:05 am by PL1 »

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2017, 12:03:26 pm »
--If you are a restorationist the original pcbs are fairly cheap nowadays since everyone has embraced the FPGA technology.

If you have an original PCB pick up the rainbow TieDie rom set, gets rid of that pesky corner fire bug and you can see all your men too.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:22:47 pm by 8BitMonk »
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2017, 12:19:25 pm »
--If you are a restorationist the original pcbs are fairly cheap nowadays since everyone has embraced the FPGA technology.

If you have an original PCB pick up the rainbow rom set, gets rid of that pesky corner fire bug and you can see all your men too.

TieDie.  Yah I did beta testing for that.  It came about from larry watching the wdpu robo players back when we were still doing the 100million gauntlet.

If you browse the guidebook there is a page with the history of that project.


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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2017, 04:45:23 pm »
Well, if you were really a hardcore player from BITD, playing with the corner bug was part of the master skill status. ;)

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2017, 05:52:23 pm »
Bitd you likely played an arcade machine set at the blue rom default of 3.  Modern times people seem to like the recommended setting of 5 which was also the default on the red/orange/yellow first issue romset (color depends on fading of sticker).

The sticks arenít your problem.  Just figure out which wave type is causing most life bleeding.  Then clean up your strategy on it. 
The masters tend to average about one life lost per wave over a long game, or slightly less.

For example, you probably lose 3-4 men per brain wave?  Try getting that down to 1-2 by being more efficient with straight line firing technique....donít touch the side walls when lightning bolts are around...and in middle of wave when it is chaos run mostly in diagonals because you can outrun the lightning bolts at an angle.


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thanks, i didn't think sticks were ever my problem. :)  well, except when i played with happ clickers.   i don't think i lose 3-4 per brain, but it's definitely is where i make or break games.  i think it's more like 1-2, never seems like 3-4, or 10. haha

thanks for the help.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2017, 10:56:31 pm »
Well, if you were really a hardcore player from BITD, playing with the corner bug was part of the master skill status. ;)

David Gomez explored that this year. He had tried many times to reach 100m using the old romset.
He finally did it this summer for the 35th birthday of Robo on June 1st.

I'm a wimp, patched roms all the way....it shocks my brain when that carpet pattern pops up out of nowhere when you are in full bore chaos.  :)

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2017, 12:24:16 pm »
You could also go with the Dominux 8's from www.GroovyGameGear.com They have grommets built in very similar to Wicos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alfRinUyhxc

Just make sure you get the proper ones (wood or metal versions) and get the round restrictor plate as well.  I have 4 of them on my Smash TV and love 'em (wood versions).  As a matter of fact, I plan to buy 2 more today for my Multi-Williams cab (metal versions).

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2017, 12:37:46 pm »
I don't, I tend to have stuff on my Youtube channel instead.  I just got the Multi Williams machine, so haven't released it yet.  Once I get the Dominux 8 sticks I will shoot the installation of them.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2017, 01:48:55 pm »
+1 for Dominux8.

I built a 10"-spaced dual stick panel with Dominux8s that I can swap onto my cabinet.  It took some trial and error to adjust the leafs just so, but now that I've got it dialed in, the sticks are wonderful for Robotron.  Actually, all twin stick games are a treat now. 


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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2017, 08:42:48 am »
I won't presume to speak for all of them.  But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.

My generalization was based on the assumption that most serious players are looking for authenticity over feel, a true hardcore player is likely going to want to play the game as close to the way it was originally as possible. I understand it's highly subjective though and I'm sure there are plenty of people in both camps like any other debate here.

Or you can shoot for advancing your skills which is a lot based on your Robotron Quotient (RQ) of score divided by wave.
If you are a learning robo marathoner you'll be in the 27k-29k range, advanced 29k-31k, and masters play in the 32k-34k range per wave which means they die less and are able to bend risk vs reward to getting more humans while staying alive to get the progressive 5k bonuses.

Interesting, based on my RQ and a high score of ~3 million I'm in the advanced range but I'd say I get honorary 'hardcore' status for restoring my own original machine.  ;D

 Feel and Authenticity are one in the same.  Meaning... you can not have one without the other.

 Robotrons heavy resistance need the ends of stroke,  helps absorb and cushion the player from excess impact shock... as well as aid in
recycling energy (rebound).

 Much like wearing dress shoes at work on concrete floors, without any shock absorbing inserts... would really start to fatigue ones
feet / legs  quickly.   Slamming the sticks full bore into the end of stroke... results in the same effect.   Its not as bad in other
games... because most games are nowhere near as Intense as Robotron... thus one may be less likely to use as much power and
momentum... during play.

 The problem is and always will be...  that there is no such thing as a   One-Size-Fits-All  solution,  that actually works great
for all applications.   Despite what the Business Marketers will  Push and Claim.

 Sure,  you can,  for example... make your footfalls lighter in dress shoes.  But the problem is... under intense pressure... you will
forget,  and easily slam ones full mass into the heels,  regardlessly.   Same for Robotron.  Few players are going to play the game
like Data from Star Trek.   Watch some footage of people playing it... and you will see full body movements... and the Cabinet often
Rocking around as a result.

 Pick the right Shoe for the Right Job type.   Dont expect long boots to work well on the Football field,  as well as they work in deep
snow.   Same for choosing the right kind of car,  or even Tool.   Yeah,  you could use a butter-knife to turn a screw... but you will
surely regret it... after the 10th screw... let alone 100th.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2017, 09:10:23 am »
Good analogies.

Learning players will slam about.
Once you start sorting the chaos on the screen into the chess-like enemy dynamics
you'll figure out that Robotron has subtle ebbs and flows of offense and defense.
Slamming about on the sticks shows the player is being reactive and on the defense.

the master players use player position on the screen as a way to setup offense.
Positioning of straight line shots that are pre-emptive is another form of offense.

The slamming about becomes little part of the success once the finesse and efficiency is found.
Most of the firing success will be found in rolling the joystick from position to position.

Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2017, 03:49:38 pm »
Feel and Authenticity are one in the same.  Meaning... you can not have one without the other.

No, actually they are totally different. The authentic original joysticks can only feel one way, whereas 10 different joysticks can feel 10 different ways based on whether they are leaf or microswitch, restrictors etc. Some may 'feel' better or worse to one person vs. the next but only one will be authentic to what was used originally, an 8-way Wico. That is unless you're varying for wear and tear... but I digress.  ;D
Games: Asteroids Deluxe | Atomiswave | Centipede | Championship Sprint | Defender | Donkey Kong | Dig Dug | Frogger | Ikari Warriors | Missile Command | Pac-Man | Pole Position | Robotron | Spy Hunter | Tempest | Super Mario Strikers

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2017, 07:18:18 pm »
Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

I don't know what gorillas are playing Robotron these days. But I have a Robotron cabaret sitting on laminate floors and I never seen anyone put that much force into working the joysticks to physically move the cabinet off it's position. It takes a lot of force to move these cabinets, I can't imagine people wrestling around with these 300 lbs. boxes using 2 small joystick handles as leverage.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2017, 08:12:06 pm »
It's a story I've heard from 3 different people in the engineering department from Williams. (John Newcomer the Joust dev, DeMar, and YellowDog)
They would put games out for employees to test and play during development phase.
The one in question being a Robo cabaret.  And one day a bigger guy robo-raged it into the wall by the sticks.

They must have been a rowdy crew as it was common to flat palm the bezel on Joust with a harsh thwack according to Newcomer.


Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

I don't know what gorillas are playing Robotron these days. But I have a Robotron cabaret sitting on laminate floors and I never seen anyone put that much force into working the joysticks to physically move the cabinet off it's position. It takes a lot of force to move these cabinets, I can't imagine people wrestling around with these 300 lbs. boxes using 2 small joystick handles as leverage.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2017, 08:37:03 pm »
And one day a bigger guy robo-raged it into the wall by the sticks.

So wait, he purposefully moved into the wall after losing? Or this happened during regular play?  Because there is a big difference.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2017, 08:59:24 pm »
And one day a bigger guy robo-raged it into the wall by the sticks.

So wait, he purposefully moved into the wall after losing? Or this happened during regular play?  Because there is a big difference.

Right. After play.

Mikes arcade used to sell heavy grommets like 8lb. They were rough and would leverage a machine around a bit depending on surface. Very tiring.


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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2017, 11:46:51 am »
Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

I don't know what gorillas are playing Robotron these days. But I have a Robotron cabaret sitting on laminate floors and I never seen anyone put that much force into working the joysticks to physically move the cabinet off it's position. It takes a lot of force to move these cabinets, I can't imagine people wrestling around with these 300 lbs. boxes using 2 small joystick handles as leverage.

 Cabaret are lower,  and so the lower center of gravity,  should in theory,  make it actually more difficult to move around via the sticks.

 The full cab,  having more mass up top,  would make it more likely to slide around via stick pushes.


 That said... the casters being down,  and on what type of flooring does play a big factor in cabinet movement.   Carpet will often prevent
sliding pretty well due to friction...  so at best, the cabinet might tilt / rock... especially if the legs were not fully deployed and locked level.

 Where as a concrete, hardwood, epoxy... or other such smooth flooring... may result in a lot more sliding around.


 Moving a cabinet isnt always as it seems.   A lot of things are unconsciously happening.

 1)  A player may be causing a repeated rocking motion,  that builds in strength after a few oscillations... thus,  a push at just the right
moment in that oscillation,  can cause an already slightly moving cabinet mass... to move far more drastically.

 2)  The player may partially lean and or Bump his mass into the CP,  at the same time hes thrashing the sticks.

 3)  Rather than merely moving his arms... he may move his whole mass,  and unite them into his hands, at the perfect moment.


 Its sort of like water.   On its own... its soft,  fluid,  weak.   But when unified in force,  it can easily knock a person out cold (wave).
A 180 lb  guy,  moving all his mass.. at an high acceleration + speed... can equate to a lot of force.


 This is why most Arcade controls are ridiculously heavy duty in their construction.   Thick gauge metal, large / and or larger number
of carriage bolts, a lot of support bracing...etc.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #45 on: December 13, 2017, 12:00:00 pm »
Good analogies.

Learning players will slam about.
Once you start sorting the chaos on the screen into the chess-like enemy dynamics
you'll figure out that Robotron has subtle ebbs and flows of offense and defense.
Slamming about on the sticks shows the player is being reactive and on the defense.

the master players use player position on the screen as a way to setup offense.
Positioning of straight line shots that are pre-emptive is another form of offense.

The slamming about becomes little part of the success once the finesse and efficiency is found.
Most of the firing success will be found in rolling the joystick from position to position.

Playing a long game with even the best sticks and poor slamming form is going to lead to failure for anyone, which is why folks tend to tired out between 20 and 50m in the 100m gauntlet.
but for the learners slamming about haphazardly is quite an adrenaline rush, and you'll hear stories about the Williams test cabaret machine getting picked up by the joysticks and bashed into the wall.  #legend

 You are speaking as if everyone is a 90% top tier level player.

 And even then... some of the best players are having moments where a quick reaction juke / dodge... is done with great acceleration
and force.   A lot of this happens at a subconscious level... especially when you just missed getting hit by a single pixel.

 Yeah... everyone whos played a decent amount of Robotron knows that most of the game is played using a circular like moving
pattern... rather than opposite directionals,  and or random movements.   However, there always comes that time when you must
react quickly, in the opposing directions.

 Even if the jolts of the sticks are not cabinet moving... they can still be a bit heavy and or extend further than needed.  This
is natural,  due to the curve of a persons extreme acceleration  "Twitch"  reactions.   Its why we over-built critical controls and
structures,  in our daily world.   Its also why we typically wear padded shoes... vs .. just walking on the frontal balls of our
feet (which is far more effective... yet difficult to maintain 100% of the time).

 The heavier rubber not only slows ones motion that goes too deep past the switch activation.. but aids in rebounding that
energy back to the players hand.. helping to accelerate it in the next motion hes in process of making... and all without that
harsh slam of solid hard materials transmitting into a players bones.


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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #46 on: December 13, 2017, 01:17:06 pm »
That reminds me of the Rockola game Nibbler.  They started with skinny shaft Wico's like you'd find on Frogger.
The devs were physically bending the joysticks so they went with the thicker Wico stick

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #47 on: December 13, 2017, 02:25:06 pm »
I certainly rocked Robotron machines back and forth, back in the days before I began to learn how to play.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #48 on: January 01, 2018, 12:55:37 pm »
Just wanted to report back here that we did go with the Dominux8. So far they are pretty damn sweet!  Will come back if anything changes, but as of now it feels like we finally have some sticks we can build a cabinet around. Finally!

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2018, 04:57:25 pm »
Great!  Did you install the round restrictors as well for a shorter throw?  Or did you leave them stock?

I will install my new metal CP versions later this week.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2018, 02:38:35 pm »
Great!  Did you install the round restrictors as well for a shorter throw?  Or did you leave them stock?
I recently got Dominux8 joysticks for my Robotron, but without the restrictors. The throw does seem too long. Are the restrictors something that can be done DIY? It seems silly to spend $6 on shipping for $6 worth of parts, and I'd bet that I have some appropriate plastic lying around. I just have no idea of the correct size or how to install them. Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2018, 03:42:54 pm »
not sure on size of the hole or anything like that, but I bought a dominux8 with the 4-way restrictor and it's installed in the top of the base, where the dust washer sits.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2018, 04:22:51 pm »
I recently got Dominux8 joysticks for my Robotron, but without the restrictors. The throw does seem too long. Are the restrictors something that can be done DIY? It seems silly to spend $6 on shipping for $6 worth of parts, and I'd bet that I have some appropriate plastic lying around. I just have no idea of the correct size or how to install them. Any help would be appreciated.

You could theoretically make your own with a piece of Lexan.  Just cut it to the size of the top of the joystick and make the hole size whatever you want.  This person did it and mentioned the hole size in the video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHtjw04-bdA

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2018, 03:12:34 am »
This thread enthused me to turn on the cab and play some Robo, Blue label. 1.27M with heavy spring sticks. Especially after some recent learnings of strategy, I find the biggest factor in success is in shooting accuracy. One shot, one kill if i can. In lieu of that, some fancy movement comes in second (small zig-zags back and forth as I'm moving up/down/diagonal, quick turn-arounds, and moving toward and then away from baddies), though in some cases going right at them and clearing a path is necessary. Fatigue is imminent, though, and all the above are easiest with Wicos. Dom8, yeah, sluicy and loosey. Don't care for it.

LOTS of Wicos on ebay, by one guy in particular. Jeez, so many NOS.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WICO-arcade-Original-Genuine-Green-Leaf-Classic-8-Way-Joysticks-4-lot/222731954791?hash=item33dbdbea67:g:5VEAAOSwRqxZ4Q22

I think those are 90s design, as this one says 80s and is gray and square base.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Wico-Original-Used-Red-Ball-JS-leaf-switch-classic-Arcade-Game-joystick/202160205681?_trkparms=aid%3D777003%26algo%3DDISCL.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D47301%26meid%3D80afa84a8f6849f99ea8efc42ae100c1%26pid%3D100013%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D222720253493&_trksid=p2047675.c100013.m1986
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 05:16:06 am by Mr. Peabody »

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2018, 08:50:00 am »
I think those are 90s design, as this one says 80s and is gray and square base.

Wico was doing massive production output in that arcade era.
The typical observation with Robotron is that the early production March-May 1982 stamped control panels have gray base 8 ways.
By summer and later production the wico bases were 8 way and black, with gray bases typically being the 4 or 2 way restrictors. (Tutankham 2 way stick on the right side I've seen in gray base)

If you really get granular you'll observe that the depths in the various bases vary by mm's one way or the other so grommets and the actuator might feel different per base.

The best recommendation is to buy the repop wico actuators from paradise arcade shop.  They are a bit shorter so it gives the spring an opportunity to actually be a spring in the shaft assembly.  If the actuator is too long it'll cause the spring to act like a lock washer, you'll know if it is the case because the e-clip will be wickedly difficult to insert during shaft assembly.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2018, 04:33:53 pm »
You could theoretically make your own with a piece of Lexan.  Just cut it to the size of the top of the joystick and make the hole size whatever you want.  This person did it and mentioned the hole size in the video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHtjw04-bdA
LOL, that was me.  At the time of publishing that video, there were no round restrictor options for the Dominux 8 sticks, at all.  So I fabricated my own.  But I shared my findings with Randy T and GGG and he was able to fabricate new ones and offer it to the arcade community.  $6 is cheap.  They were a pain in the rear to make myself and the Lexan I needed cost about the same (I wouldn't use plexi, since they are notoriously hard to drill due to cracking). 

However, I will say that since my design sits on top of the joystick base and not in it, I was able to keep the dustwasher inside.  Moving forward with Randy T's design, however, I need to be more creative (using spacers as someone else here pointed out a while back) in order to get the dustwasher to sit on top of the restrictor without getting jammed up by the control panel.  Or I may eliminate the dustwasher entirely since the restrictor acts as a dust washer partially at least.

DeL
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 04:35:27 pm by DeLuSioNal29 »
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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2018, 09:48:15 am »
LOL, that was me.  At the time of publishing that video, there were no round restrictor options for the Dominux 8 sticks, at all.  So I fabricated my own.  But I shared my findings with Randy T and GGG and he was able to fabricate new ones and offer it to the arcade community.  $6 is cheap.  They were a pain in the rear to make myself and the Lexan I needed cost about the same (I wouldn't use plexi, since they are notoriously hard to drill due to cracking).
Thanks. I'm going to order some from GGG.

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2018, 08:21:29 pm »
@1500points: Ahh, soooh

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2018, 08:06:39 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2018, 09:20:16 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2018, 10:08:27 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/
What do you mean what website?

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2018, 10:35:53 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/
What do you mean what website?

That's RandyT's website...

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #62 on: January 09, 2018, 10:46:45 am »
But I will suffice it to say that I have had a few players contact me, who might be at odds with that generalization.
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?

What website are you going to?  I just got an order from him within the last couple of weeks: http://groovygamegear.com/webstore/
What do you mean what website?

That's RandyT's website...
"I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM "

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #63 on: January 09, 2018, 11:43:53 am »
I'm trying to contact you thru your website and here on PM to order stuff.
Are you still trading thanks?
RandyT runs a web store. If by trading you mean giving him money for products then yes, heís still trading.

Just go to groovygamegear.com and place an order through his site. Not sure what this confusion is all about.

Bengaz

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #64 on: January 09, 2018, 12:04:29 pm »
Looks like you are confused as my message on the forum was clearly to Randy.
I certainly am not confused.
I'll wait for Randy to comment thanks for all the replies.

DeLuSioNal29

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #65 on: January 09, 2018, 01:08:12 pm »
FFS people.  Keep it civil please and stay on topic.

Bengaz, have you tried contacting RandyT via e-mail?:  customerservice@groovygamegear.com

DeL
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Bengaz

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #66 on: January 09, 2018, 01:12:45 pm »
FFS people.  Keep it civil please and stay on topic.

Bengaz, have you tried contacting RandyT via e-mail?:  customerservice@groovygamegear.com

DeL
Yes mate I have thanks anyway. (hope the lad is ok?)

DeLuSioNal29

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #67 on: January 09, 2018, 01:14:36 pm »
I'm sure he's fine, I spoke to him recently.

I sent you a PM with him e-mail addresses.

DeL
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 01:25:20 pm by DeLuSioNal29 »
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thorr

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2018, 07:56:28 pm »
LOL, that was me.  At the time of publishing that video, there were no round restrictor options for the Dominux 8 sticks, at all.  So I fabricated my own.  But I shared my findings with Randy T and GGG and he was able to fabricate new ones and offer it to the arcade community.  $6 is cheap.  They were a pain in the rear to make myself and the Lexan I needed cost about the same (I wouldn't use plexi, since they are notoriously hard to drill due to cracking). 

However, I will say that since my design sits on top of the joystick base and not in it, I was able to keep the dustwasher inside.  Moving forward with Randy T's design, however, I need to be more creative (using spacers as someone else here pointed out a while back) in order to get the dustwasher to sit on top of the restrictor without getting jammed up by the control panel.  Or I may eliminate the dustwasher entirely since the restrictor acts as a dust washer partially at least.

DeL

Thanks for creating that video DeL.  It was instrumental in my design and decision making process while creating my custom controller because it let me see the joystick in action and I learned a lot about how the gate on the Dominux8 works by watching your video and reading posts on this forum. 

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #69 on: January 12, 2018, 01:19:11 pm »
Glad you got that from the video, even though it was poorly lit with crappy audio, heh.  I have a follow up that I'm working on as we speak with better lighting, pro audio and comparisons of the wood vs. metal versions.  I'll finish up production this weekend (fingers crossed).

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Re: Robotron build sticks?
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2018, 05:06:10 pm »
Episode is done.  It goes live tomorrow, 1/19 @ 10am.   :applaud:

DeL
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