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Author Topic: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets  (Read 9853 times)

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Niels Arcade

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Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« on: November 17, 2017, 07:55:26 am »
Hi all,

I am currently exploring some options regarding setting up a business with arcade related products. With the success of retro game consoles such as the NES and SNES mini and various other I can imagine there being a demand for retro arcade gaming at home as well.

At this time there already are some businesses providing build to order arcade cabinets and DIY kits and parts. I am considering launching a Kickstarter campaign for a two player bar top arcade cabinet, completely assembled and finished.

I have finished one full sized cabinet for my family's private use. This took a lot of time, but I think I can streamline the production process by amongst other things have a 3rd party CNC route the MDF parts for me and produce a series of units at once.

My main concerns are copyright and licensing issues I might encounter. Even though several sellers offer cabinets with xxx in 1 jamma multi boards or raspberry pi systems with preloaded roms it seems like most if not all do this illegal or in a shady grey area at best. The same goes for the sticker graphics of well known brands and characters. For a DIY project for own personal use, such as my own Star Wars themed cabinet, this shouldn't be to much of a problem, but I don't want to risk costly claims or law suits by commercially selling cabinets with unlicensed material. 

Since there are so many different game studios and publishers it will probably be to complicated and expensive to get a allround license for a broad scala of known arcade games, unless I would focus on one specific franchise, but that would narrow the target audience. An option would be to offer fully assembled and finished cabinets but without the all in one jamma board but have it plug and play ready so the customer could add their own 3rd party bought game system. Or sell with a raspberry pi / mini PC but without roms. The thing is, I am really wondering if a bar top arcade cabinet is still an interesting buy for most people if it's not plug and play out of the box and they have to go out and find their own roms or jamma board.

I'm wondering what your opinions are about the matter I sketched above: if a fully finished bartop cabinet will sell if it's not shipped with preloaded games.

Since new 3:4 ratio 17 or 19" screens are hard to find these days (or very expensive) I'm considering using used/refurbished 3:4 ratio monitors which are pretty cheap these days. This will also highly benefit the eventual consumer price and I would still make sure to offer a minimal 12 months warranty so customers are protected. I'm wondering if using refurbished monitors might put people of to much though.

As you can tell I'm still in the brainstorming phase and all your thoughts and input will be greatly appreciated.  :)
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chopperthedog

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 08:00:42 am »
Yawn....


good day.

Niels Arcade

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 08:08:04 am »
Yawn....


good day.

A good day to you too sir/madam. Would you care to elaborate your yawn? All feedback, criticism included, is welcome.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 08:17:43 am »
What kind of tech support are you going to offer? I can only see this in tears for a lot of people.
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Niels Arcade

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 08:22:14 am »
What kind of tech support are you going to offer? I can only see this in tears for a lot of people.

I would offer at least a 12 months warranty on the construction and electrical parts. Excluded would be water damage, drop damage and other (excessive) user inflicted damage (the build quality will be able to sustain button bashing). I would use quality parts and send a few extra spare buttons and cherry switches included with all orders. I will calculate a margin in the sell price to cover spare parts and warranty replacements.

I am not doing this to make a quick buck and move on. If I'm going forward with this I will only do it if I can offer a durable high quality product. Please be aware that al though I have already thought about a lot of things, I haven't figured everything out at this stage yet, so tips and suggestions are greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 08:29:31 am by Niels Arcade »
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 08:39:52 am »
I don't think yotsuya means warranty, but rather support. I made my brother-in-law a htpc once. Ended up installing a VNC, so I didn't have to come over every time he messed up the software, or didn't know how it worked again.
If you didn't build it yourself and run into difficulties, then you probably won't be able to solve it yourself.

---edit---
BTW, I think this might be good idea, but I would sell it through Marktplaats. Just one at a time.

You could put your Star Wars cabinet on it to see what people are willing to pay.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 08:44:42 am by barrymossel »

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 08:43:37 am »
If you don't have the money to start a business like a big boy then don't bother. Go to the bank with your business plan. If you really believe in what you are doing you will risk your own money and credit to get it off the ground.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 08:44:39 am »
I don't think yotsuya means warranty, but rather support. I made my brother-in-law a htpc once. Ended up installing a VNC, so I didn't have to come over every time he messed up the software, or didn't know how it worked again.
If you didn't build it yourself and run into difficulties, then you probably won't be able to solve it yourself.

Ah okay, I get what you mean. This is absolutely something I'm thinking about a lot, it's also related to the original question I stated about the viability of an arcade cabinet shipped without preloaded games. I think that if I would make a cabinet with a Jamma set up I could guide customers to buy a xxx in one Jamma board and it should plug and play and could offer a Raspberry Pi/PC set-up for more advanced users.
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Niels Arcade

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 08:49:16 am »
If you don't have the money to start a business like a big boy then don't bother. Go to the bank with your business plan. If you really believe in what you are doing you will risk your own money and credit to get it off the ground.

I would already be investing my own money in creating several prototypes to demonstrate on the Kickstarter campaign. Besides Kickstarter is great platform to generate awareness of the project/product and will make me able to purchase larger quantities of the materials needed so this will also benefit the price that the end user will pay.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 11:32:40 am »
...and could offer a Raspberry Pi/PC set-up for more advanced users.

And there ya go.  That's a bullet in the foot right there.  Look up Dunning-Krueger sometime.  The dumber someone is, the more likely they are to consider themselves an "advanced user" and the more they will demand support.  You've obviously never worked in telephone support.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 12:29:07 pm »
@Slippyblade That is a valid argument. It could be adressed by being very clear up front what level of tech support will be provided. If I go forward with this project I intend to provide tech support regarding setting up a beformentioned 3rd party all in one jamma board and tech support to get the controls, screen and sound working on a raspberry pi or PC. I will not sell nor offer support on installing front ends, emulators and roms and would definately mention that clearly. What I'm still finding difficult to determine is if an arcade system which is delivered with no games out of the box will be a viable product in the first place (hence my post question).
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 12:32:20 pm by Niels Arcade »
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 12:33:35 pm »
There are already about 500-1000 businesses competing in this space. There are about 60 different models being factory produced in China. The space is absolutely saturated and the value of these things could drop to almost zero at any time, as eventually every chump out there will own one and the used ones will start hitting craigslist in massive numbers.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 12:34:27 pm »
This all sounds like heart attack from stress waiting to happen.

If you want to make bartops, do yourself a favor, just make the empty cabinets in your garage and sell them on ebay or amazon. Let the customer do the rest. Even though its small, a bartop is no picnic to put together right. Then ship and all that. Your better off just letting the end user do all the hard work and you'll make a few bucks on the side. You can still make a unique design if that's what your after.

Kickstarter is a bad idea all around.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 12:54:42 pm »
Yes, it might be possible that there is allready to much competition. From another angle I'd say it is still a very under the radar market which provides upportunity with good marketing since most people I know don't have a clue that products like these are on sale nor do I ever see them in physical stores over here in the Netherlands (there are some webshops and Marktplaats, local craigslist, sellers). Nevertheless I definetly don't consider this an easy walk in the park and will study further on the market needs and risks.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 01:01:43 pm »
I think your success will depend on something unique(not gimmicks) about it. What niche could it fill that others arent? Can you offer something that isnt readily available? If you can answer these questions yourself and draw a business plan from it, then welcome to the building community.  Moderators love to help test new products as well. We would always give honest criticism be it good or bad. We have alot of great folks in this community with great ideas and a willingness to help his/her fellow gamer if we can. Game On.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2017, 01:58:55 pm »
I think your success will depend on something unique(not gimmicks) about it. What niche could it fill that others arent? Can you offer something that isnt readily available? If you can answer these questions yourself and draw a business plan from it, then welcome to the building community.  Moderators love to help test new products as well. We would always give honest criticism be it good or bad. We have alot of great folks in this community with great ideas and a willingness to help his/her fellow gamer if we can. Game On.

Thank you. If I decide to continue I will make sure my product will have added value and certain uniqueness in terms of functionality and design elements.

From the posts in this thread thusfar I get the feeling that a Kickstarter campaign for an arcade cabinet is not appreciated by the posters so far. Could someone explain why? To be clear my main motive for a kickstarter campaign is not to get a bag of money before I build my products, but more so the scope of reach and awareness a good kickstarter could generate. It would also be a great tool to determine the consumer interest and set a minimum Euro/Dollar total pledge target so I know I can only continue if there is enough demand (since just selling a few units is not economicly viable as a business, also because of purchasing quantities). If the pledge level is not reached people would not get billed.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2017, 02:06:44 pm »
Don't listen to the naysayers.  Invest everything you have into this.  Refer to yourself in the 3rd person and as "We" from here on out.  Put a frog in your pocket so you have someone to point to when pinballjim asks, "Who is 'we?'"

Go go go.



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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 02:12:37 pm »
  The princess and I....Jennifer! >:D

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 02:17:57 pm »
Yes, it might be possible that there is allready to much competition. From another angle I'd say it is still a very under the radar market which provides upportunity with good marketing since most people I know don't have a clue that products like these are on sale nor do I ever see them in physical stores over here in the Netherlands (there are some webshops and Marktplaats, local craigslist, sellers). Nevertheless I definetly don't consider this an easy walk in the park and will study further on the market needs and risks.
There is demand in NL (check bids on Marktplaats), but you should just build one at a time and sell that one. Money wise you could get like 200-800 euros per build, if you don't count hours. But you should do it because you like it.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 02:23:52 pm »
    From a production standpoint, that wouldn't keep the lights on, waste time  and ultimately lose money.... Henry invented the assembly line, so why reinvent the wheel?

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2017, 02:48:10 pm »
Quote
here is demand in NL (check bids on Marktplaats), but you should just build one at a time and sell that one. Money wise you could get like 200-800 euros per build, if you don't count hours. But you should do it because you like it.

One of the main reasons I'm considering this business is because I love video games, arcades and building cabinets (since this adventure started with building my own full size cabinet for private use). Another reason that I'm considering this right now is because I'm currently unemployed so I have the oppurtunity to start something new with my full atention and time at its disposal. However since I also have to (co)provide my family income it's not a viable option to build cabinets one at a time per order. That would be to time consuming and not generate enough income to support my family. I am not naive and will only jump in this venture if I can produce a sound businessplan with a decent chance of success, this whole thread is actually part of my research ;)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 02:50:52 pm by Niels Arcade »
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2017, 02:59:56 pm »
Get a job. This will bury you.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2017, 03:10:22 pm »
   Although, A CNC could in theory could be considered just that, cut as needed.... My concerns with such a project is, few people would want A random cab in there house, Or worse want some kit, don't forget copyrights (*exceptions of course)  Actually peddling them off at trade shows and such, And living on the road. basically selling  something they don't need... That's a harsh way to live friend. Haruman would be someone to talk too (IMO).

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2017, 03:13:27 pm »
Get a job. This will bury you.

indeed. There is no money in it and licensing will kill you.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2017, 03:18:46 pm »
Get a job. This will bury you.

Phew... tough crowd  ;)

Though I can understand your sentiment, since I've experienced first hand how time consuming a (first) build is. There have probably been other guys before me who might have tried a business at it and failed (and you might have seen it happen before). Still if that would demotivate every one who would want to start a business nobody would ever start businesses so I will evaluate further based on facts and arguments before I decide to move on or not.

To be honest I am a bit surprised to find so little support for an arcade cabinet product on a dedicated arcade forum. Of course I can understand and appreciate any argumented feedback or criticism, but I don't really understand the "just don't do it" comments. Wouldn't it be awesome if arcade gaming gets more spot light attention?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 03:21:37 pm by Niels Arcade »
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2017, 03:22:38 pm »
I sell bartops.  In kit form, flat packed, mainly just the wood & plastic, T-molding, power inlets, etc. 

Even that can be time consuming.  Could I support my family on the income it generates?  Not even close.  Is it fun?  Sure.  And it gives me money to fund this arcade habit without going broke.  Lol.

The other day I shipped a built bartop (no monitor or PC) and packing that securely for shipping took the better part of a day.  I way undercharged on that one.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2017, 03:23:33 pm »
We build them. We know how much it costs. We know how much time it takes. We know what the maintenance is like.

We know all of our friends say "Wow. I would love one of those." We give them a fair to low price and they say "no thanks" 90 percent of the time. Everybody thinks they are cool. Almost nobody wants to pay what you put into them in time and materials.

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2017, 03:30:11 pm »
I sell bartops.  In kit form, flat packed, mainly just the wood & plastic, T-molding, power inlets, etc. 

Even that can be time consuming.  Could I support my family on the income it generates?  Not even close.  Is it fun?  Sure.  And it gives me money to fund this arcade habit without going broke.  Lol.

The other day I shipped a built bartop (no monitor or PC) and packing that securely for shipping took the better part of a day.  I way undercharged on that one.

Thank you for your input! Is it safe to assume you also have another dayjob? Do you think it might generate enough income if you would work full time on it? My wife has a pretty good job with a decent salary, I don't need to make a giant income, but a few hundred euro's a month wouldn't cut it either.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2017, 03:31:40 pm »

That is because commercial builders, the 60 in 1 board and bartops in general have essentially ruined the hobby.  The commercial builders churn out terrible looking machines with substandard parts at massive prices and tell you that the parts are good. Commercial builders get new custom builders going in all the wrong directions first, and then they end up throwing all their project money at the wrong things.

The 60 in 1 board has sucked up all the donor cabinets that used to be easy to find.

While bartops were cute at first, "Oh look, someone brought a golf cart with a sticker kit to the Hot Rod show.", then 5 years later the whole show is golf carts.

And then to top it all off, even the commercial builders that I do like and respect struggle to make any money at it. It is hard to make money as an honest man in an industry dominated by the dishonest.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2017, 03:32:51 pm »
We build them. We know how much it costs. We know how much time it takes. We know what the maintenance is like.

We know all of our friends say "Wow. I would love one of those." We give them a fair to low price and they say "no thanks" 90 percent of the time. Everybody thinks they are cool. Almost nobody wants to pay what you put into them in time and materials.

Thank you, this helps me to better understand the comments you've made previously.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2017, 03:34:24 pm »
I sell bartops.  In kit form, flat packed, mainly just the wood & plastic, T-molding, power inlets, etc. 

Even that can be time consuming.  Could I support my family on the income it generates?  Not even close.  Is it fun?  Sure.  And it gives me money to fund this arcade habit without going broke.  Lol.

The other day I shipped a built bartop (no monitor or PC) and packing that securely for shipping took the better part of a day.  I way undercharged on that one.

Thank you for your input! Is it safe to assume you also have another dayjob? Do you think it might generate enough income if you would work full time on it? My wife has a pretty good job with a decent salary, I don't need to make a giant income, but a few hundred euro's a month wouldn't cut it either.

Yes I have a day job. 

It's not like I turn orders away, I have a fairly steady stream with highs and lows.  I'd probably have to advertise like crazy and do all sorts of things to get the order numbers up. 

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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2017, 03:39:31 pm »
Reach out to Rick. He’s a Canadian here who I think is trying to do this full time.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2017, 03:43:54 pm »

That is because commercial builders, the 60 in 1 board and bartops in general have essentially ruined the hobby.  The commercial builders churn out terrible looking machines with substandard parts at massive prices and tell you that the........

Ah I see, it's always sad when a beloved thing is downgraded by people who want to cash in quickly with bad products and knock offs.

That doesn't perse means any commercial product will be bad. Just remember, arcade cabinets were created as commercial money making devices in the first place ;) I have my own moral compass and would never want to sell an inferior product or capitalize on a other man's property, that's also one of the reasons why I won't build nor sell a product with unlicensed games or graphics. If other sellers do that's fine, the more reason for me to think of a good reason for my product to stand out with other features.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 03:45:26 pm by Niels Arcade »
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2017, 03:46:44 pm »
I think enough people have told you it’s not a viable idea. Good luck.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2017, 03:47:59 pm »
I think Niels being in the Netherlands makes it a complete unknown because the market is going to be absolutely 100 percent different than what any American, Canadian or even British builder knows about. We can't even be sure there is enough demand in the whole country to support one guy building them full time. I don't pretend to be an expert at any individual country but I know arcade nostalgia and demand drops off hard once you get out of English speaking countries since most other countries didn't get that many games in the first place.
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Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2017, 03:49:48 pm »
I think people/casual gamers/builders don’t care about quality so much as about cost. The amount of Zero Delay inquiries leads me to believe that.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2017, 03:53:18 pm »
I think people/casual gamers/builders don’t care about quality so much as about cost. The amount of Zero Delay inquiries leads me to believe that.

Cost is huge, and then the people who look for prebuilt shop around. I tell them that 19 of the games in the 60 in 1 don't really work right, and they really need to spend an extra $15 to get a real Pac-Man type joystick in it. Meanwhile, the shark down the street says "All the games work fine, zippy joystick is great", and who do you think gets the sale?
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2017, 03:55:08 pm »
I think people/casual gamers/builders don’t care about quality so much as about cost. The amount of Zero Delay inquiries leads me to believe that.

Cost is huge, and then the people who look for prebuilt shop around. I tell them that 19 of the games in the 60 in 1 don't really work right, and they really need to spend an extra $15 to get a real Pac-Man type joystick in it. Meanwhile, the shark down the street says "All the games work fine, zippy joystick is great", and who do you think gets the sale?

Yep. Dudes here blow $200 on LEDs and want to use a $5 controller for their joysticks.
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2017, 03:57:44 pm »
@yotsuya and @pageoliver: thanks, all relevant things to consider imo!
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Re: Thinking about producing and selling bartop arcade cabinets
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2017, 03:59:45 pm »
I might have taken this thread seriously if you actually had experience and a track record for building multiple cabs of good quality. You lost me once I saw that you've only built ONE damn cab along with making mention of kickstarter. Lack of experience and personal funding are the two main ingredients that make up a hearty "fail salad".


good day.