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Author Topic: CRT Emudriver set up & looking great except Vertical games (Pac Man) are cut off  (Read 875 times)

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DaddyLongLegs

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Thanks to this great forum I have my CRT Emudriver all set up on my MAME cabinet. Everything looks absolutely amazing, however I am noticing that vertical games are missing a pretty big chunk of the screen.

I just tried Donkey Kong and a little bit is cut off from the bottom, with a bit more from the top. You can see the score, but anything above that is cut off.

However, you cannot see the score AT ALL in Pac-Man. I tried pressing the tilda key and messing with some aspect ratio stuff but nothing helped.

Here is a screen shot of what it says when I load up Pac-Man:



Did I do something wrong setting up CRT EMudriver or something? Does that info screen seem correct?

I would really like to see the score without having to adjust the height pots every time, so any info would be greatly appreciated!

buttersoft

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Ok, can anyone remember whether MAME lists resolution for vertical games as H x V? (H now being the narrow edge of a 4:3 monitor for a vertical game correctly displaying on a vertical monitor.) If so, DLL, your GM is picking the wrong mode? Did you set a rotating monitor in VMM or mame.ini? What orientation is the game in, text is the right way up? What physical orientation is the monitor in?

« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 10:30:49 pm by buttersoft »

DaddyLongLegs

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Ok, can anyone remember whether MAME lists resolution for vertical games as H x V? (H now being the narrow edge of a 4:3 monitor for a vertical game correctly displaying on a vertical monitor.) If so, DLL, your GM is picking the wrong mode? Did you set a rotating monitor in VMM or mame.ini? What orientation is the game in, text is the right way up? What physical orientation is the monitor in?



Thank you so much for the reply! I really spent so many hours today trying to do this I lost all hope.

Here is a pic of the machine:



And here is what Pac-Man looks like on it:



So it is a  4:3 Wells Gardner standard res 15khz monitor. It is position horizontally, since I wanted the highest compatibility possible.

Basically I understand for vertical games I have to choose pixel-perfect with missing image, or an image that is "squished" and not so perfect looking, but I can actually read the score in Pac-Man. I just can't figure out how to do that.

buttersoft

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Ok, it might be that the monitor is switching sizes with a 50/60Hz transition. I'll write something you can try tomorrow when i have more time :)

DaddyLongLegs

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Ok, it might be that the monitor is switching sizes with a 50/60Hz transition. I'll write something you can try tomorrow when i have more time :)

Wow. I appreciate that so much!

krick

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On my setup, in order to see vertical games like Pac-Man fully, I have to adjust the vertical height adjustment on my monitor.  Of course, this causes horizontal games to be squished slightly, but it's not really that noticeable.  I just leave it set this way and it works fine for most games.

The other option is to wire up a remote potentiometer that can be accessed from the front of the cabinet so that you can manually adjust it for each game as needed.  It might be possible to have some kind of a switch that adds/removes a fixed resistor to the vertical height adjustment and either trigger that manually or programmatically via additional software/hardware but that's above my pay grade.

DaddyLongLegs

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On my setup, in order to see vertical games like Pac-Man fully, I have to adjust the vertical height adjustment on my monitor.  Of course, this causes horizontal games to be squished slightly, but it's not really that noticeable.  I just leave it set this way and it works fine for most games.

The other option is to wire up a remote potentiometer that can be accessed from the front of the cabinet so that you can manually adjust it for each game as needed.  It might be possible to have some kind of a switch that adds/removes a fixed resistor to the vertical height adjustment and either trigger that manually or programmatically via additional software/hardware but that's above my pay grade.

Yea that seems a bit much. There's no way to tell GroovyMAME "OK, I want everything to look arcade perfect, but I don't mind Vertical games being scaled down a bit to fit my screen"?

Calamity

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Yea that seems a bit much. There's no way to tell GroovyMAME "OK, I want everything to look arcade perfect, but I don't mind Vertical games being scaled down a bit to fit my screen"?

Yes there is. Don't allow GM to pick vertical resolutions above 240p, or 256p. Either remove those modes from your mode list, or use a custom crt_range that limits the vertical resolutions GM should use:

 crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 512
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

buttersoft

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TBH Calamity's solution is probably more functional and certainly much simpler than mine. Either way you have to trade something. But some TV's and monitors would change vertical size somewhere around 53Hz vertical refresh rate. This was to make sure NTSC @60Hz and PAL @50Hz both displayed with a reasonable screen size. I've managed to use a monitor like that, and get into ArcadeOSD and play with the modeline's refresh, sync width and dot clock to force one size (NTSC/PAL) over the other. Note that you're not changing anything to do with the colour encoding, i use those terms for reference only.

Essentially you set your desktop resolution to a fallback modeline you know works, then go into ArcadeOSD, pick the mode you want to alter, unlock v-sync, and have at the values. If you push too far, you keep hitting esc until you're back to your safe modeline. If you manage to get the mode you want into the right size, say 288p like your pic above, then  note down the changes you've made to the modeline, and add those to a file called [gamenamehere].ini, which goes in a folder called ini under your main GM directory. You don't have to save the modeline in ArcadeOSD unless you want other emulators to use it, but equally there's no reason not to. GM uses it's own timings, it doesn't use what you saved, so you open the mame.ini, find the line called crt_range0 and copy it into the new [gamenamehere].ini - calling it whatever game you want it for, or whichever machine (i.e. neogeo.ini). Or just use a range line like the one in Calamity's post above. Then you alter that range line so it produces only the modeline you want. To do that, you take a look at the sticky on monitor ranges in this forum and try to figure stuff out.

Kinda convoluted, and it means you trade perfect refresh rate for integer scaling in the critical direction, though you're probably not running at perfect refresh anyway in these cases. For 15kHz monitor it'll only work up to about 288p because any higher and you have less scan rate to play with. And this is assuming your TV or monitor actually responds to the change you make. PVM's definitely will, after that it's a crapshoot.


« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 07:54:44 pm by buttersoft »

DaddyLongLegs

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TBH Calamity's solution is probably more functional and certainly much simpler than mine. Either way you have to trade something. But some TV's and monitors would change vertical size somewhere around 53Hz vertical refresh rate. This was to make sure NTSC and PAL both displayed with a reasonable screen size. I've managed to use a monitor like that, and get into ArcadeOSD and play with the modeline's refresh, sync width and dot clock to force one size (NTSC/PAL) over the other. Note that you're not changing anything to do with the colour encoding, i use those terms for reference only.

Essentially you setup your resolution to a fallback modeline you know works, then go into ArcadeOSD, pick the mode you want to alter, unlock v-sync, and have at the values. If you push too far, you keep hitting esc until you're back to your safe modeline. If you manage to get the mode you want into the right size, say 288p like your pic above, then  note down the changes you've made to the modeline, and add those to a file called [gamenamehere].ini, which goes in a folder called ini under your main GM directory. You don't have to save the modeline in ArcadeOSD unless you want other emulators to use it, but equally there's no reason not to. GM uses it's own timings, it doesn't use what you saved, so you open the mame.ini, find the line called crt_range0 and copy it into the new [gamenamehere].ini - calling it whatever game you want it for, or whichever machine (i.e. neogeo.ini). Or just use a range line like the one in Calamity's post above. Then you alter that range line so it produces only the modeline you want. To do that, you take a look at the sticky on monitor ranges in this forum and try to figure stuff out.

Kinda convoluted, and it means you trade perfect refresh rate for integer scaling in the critical direction, though you're probably not running at perfect refresh anyway in these cases. For 15kHz monitor it'll only work up to about 288p because any higher and you have less scan rate to play with. And this is assuming your TV or monitor actually responds to the change you make. PVM's definitely will, after that it's a crapshoot.


Thanks  so much for your helpful reply. I will definitely fall back on this solution if all else fails (mostly because I will need to do an obscene amount of homework to figure it out :)

Yea that seems a bit much. There's no way to tell GroovyMAME "OK, I want everything to look arcade perfect, but I don't mind Vertical games being scaled down a bit to fit my screen"?

Yes there is. Don't allow GM to pick vertical resolutions above 240p, or 256p. Either remove those modes from your mode list, or use a custom crt_range that limits the vertical resolutions GM should use:

 crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 512

OK so I changed my mame.ini to look like what you posted. Pac-Man looks exactly like I was hoping! Don't get me wrong, it "looks" way better in the native resolution, but not being able to see the score was not worth it.

However, I am A bit confused because it only fixed some games (luckily a lot of SHMUPS were included). Donkey Kong still is missing a good chunk, especially on top. Is there a reason that Donkey Kong would have been "left out" from this change?

I did try to resize things using the tab key and adjusting the vertical and horizontal scaling manually. However, when I did that, things would happen like the straight line in the number 5 would disappear. I guess it's actually removing lines? You will have to forgive my stupidity on the subject; I am just confused because I've always had games "stretch" to fit without stuff like that happening. I am guessing that is what I need integer scaling for? I usually hate scaling of course, but just for vertical games I would love to be able to a bit.

Calamity

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Is there a reason that Donkey Kong would have been "left out" from this change?

I deliberately left that as an exercise for the reader.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

DaddyLongLegs

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Is there a reason that Donkey Kong would have been "left out" from this change?

I deliberately left that as an exercise for the reader.

Apparently I am too dense because I checked what resolution Donkey Kong used, so I went into mame.ini and changed the number 256 to 224 and it made no difference. Could you do me a huge favor and give me a little more information? I am clearly too dumb to figure this out on my own for whatever reason.

DaddyLongLegs

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I totally understand you don't want to hand-hold me through this. But It's been over a day later and I am still unable to figure it out. I tried for 13 hours yesterday. If you don't want to flat out give me the answer, could you please point me in the right direction at least? :)

Calamity

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Read my signature.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

DaddyLongLegs

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Read my signature.

Attached. You have no idea how much I appreciate your help.

buttersoft

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Read my signature.

Attached. You have no idea how much I appreciate your help.

This is where you put your money where your mouth is and buy him a drink :)

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=36

DaddyLongLegs

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Read my signature.

Attached. You have no idea how much I appreciate your help.

This is where you put your money where your mouth is and buy him a drink :)

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=36

I didn't even notice the donation page! Calamity, you should put it in your sig!

I just donated $20. Thank you for all that you do!

Calamity

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Thanks buttersoft, I know your will is good but I hate the idea of anybody thinking I answer questions for tips. (I really appreciate your effort providing help in this forum and the work you've done on tutorials, btw).

OP's particular question is one I have already answered many times.

I'd like this forum to be a place of experimentation for GM's development, not Calamity's consulting room. Most users keep reporting issues without dedicating a minute to attach a log, however the expect me to engage in an interrogatory. That attitude drains my energy.

Please consider this a general comment, not something dedicated to the OP.

...........

Donkey Kong's relevant resolution value is 256, not 224, because once rotated, 256 is the height.

Now, this line:

crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 512

Notice I remarked two values: 256 and 512. These are the progressive and interlaced upper limits, respectively. With the config above, dkong will pass the filter because it's 256 lines tall.

If you only reduce the progressive limit, and only the progressive, say 240 instead of 256, dkong will be blocked by the progressive limit, but quite probably will escape through the interlaced limit. GM will prefer 512i for a x2 integer scale, rather than 240p for fractional scaling. I guess this is what you were seeing... I'm just guessing because you didn't provide a log when you said that changing 256 to 224 didn't make a difference, see what I mean? :)

So the solution is to modify both limits at once:

crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 240, 448, 480

I didn't suggest this in the beginning because I think it's a bad solution: you'll block many legit 256-line horizontal games, e.g. most Irem titles. Because of this, I'd only put that line in the "vertical.ini" config file, so it will only affect vertical games.

Only proper long term solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxdUCLa4VCk



« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 05:13:24 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

DaddyLongLegs

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Thanks buttersoft, I know your will is good but I hate the idea of anybody thinking I answer questions for tips. (I really appreciate your effort providing help in this forum and the work you've done on tutorials, btw).

OP's particular question is one I have already answered many times.

I'd like this forum to be a place of experimentation for GM's development, not Calamity's consulting room. Most users keep reporting issues without dedicating a minute to attach a log, however the expect me to engage in an interrogatory. That attitude drains my energy.

Please consider this a general comment, not something dedicated to the OP.

...........

Donkey Kong's relevant resolution value is 256, not 224, because once rotated, 256 is the height.

Now, this line:

crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 512

Notice I remarked two values: 256 and 512. These are the progressive and interlaced upper limits, respectively. With the config above, dkong will pass the filter because it's 256 lines tall.

If you only reduce the progressive limit, and only the progressive, say 240 instead of 256, dkong will be blocked by the progressive limit, but quite probably will escape through the interlaced limit. GM will prefer 512i for a x2 integer scale, rather than 240p for fractional scaling. I guess this is what you were seeing... I'm just guessing because you didn't provide a log when you said that changing 256 to 224 didn't make a difference, see what I mean? :)

So the solution is to modify both limits at once:

crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 480

I didn't suggest this in the beginning because I think it's a bad solution: you'll block many legit 256-line horizontal games, e.g. most Irem titles. Because of this, I'd only put that line in the "vertical.ini" config file, so it will only affect vertical games.

Only proper long term solution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxdUCLa4VCk


Don't worry about being too humble to ask for donations. Just leave a link in your signature. I would have donated way earlier.

I am sorry if you answered this question a thousand times before. I swear I googled it for days before coming here for an answer.

Is your suggestion to just create a vertical.ini file in the ini folder, and all it has to contain is the "crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 480" line and that's it?

Calamity

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Quote
Is your suggestion to just create a vertical.ini file in the ini folder, and all it has to contain is the "crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 480" line and that's it?

Yes, but 240 instead of 256, I've just edited my previous comment.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

DaddyLongLegs

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Is your suggestion to just create a vertical.ini file in the ini folder, and all it has to contain is the "crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 480" line and that's it?

Yes, but 240 instead of 256, I've just edited my previous comment.

Dude thank you from the bottom of my heart. Donkey Kong and Pac-Man and all the other vertical games look exactly like I had hoped. Of course I would prefer a vertical monitor with pixel-perfect accuracy, but that is not an option for me as I can't afford a vertical cab anytime soon, so having it scale to fit is a welcome alternative to not being able to see high scores and such.

I really, really appreciate it. I understand you must get frustrated answering the same questions over and over again, but I genuinely did not see this answered anywhere. I even searched for "vertical.ini" but google must suck because it kept giving me results showing "mame.ini". I tried to learn all this on my own, but I do have a legitimate learning disability which makes it difficult, so I appreciate you not just ignoring me as someone too lazy to do their homework.

I would like to learn about CRT_Emudriver so I can stop bothering you, and I also like to learn. Is there an extensive FAQ out there? Like for example, you explained about Donkey Kong being blocked by a progressive limit and stuff. I am not sure what you mean by that. I would like to learn.

Heck, I am even confused about why CRT_Emudriver/groovymame uses 2560x240 instead of just 320x240. Obviously there is a good reason for it, but I would love to learn *why* it's used. It helps me learn this stuff!

Another thing I am confused about is why Donkey Kong looks so good now with your vertical.ini setting, but when I manually scaled it using the slider bars, it looked terrible? I tried to "match" the scaling both vertically and horizontally to make it an interger scaling but I couldn't do it. I am so confused!

Thank you again for everything that you do, Calamity!

buttersoft

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Heck, I am even confused about why CRT_Emudriver/groovymame uses 2560x240 instead of just 320x240. Obviously there is a good reason for it, but I would love to learn *why* it's used. It helps me learn this stuff!

That one's covered in the guide i wrote. See the section d) on Super Resolutions.

https://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/87668-A-guide-to-connecting-your-Windows-PC-to-an-SD-CRT-TV-PVM-or-Arcade-Monitor

DaddyLongLegs

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Quote
Is your suggestion to just create a vertical.ini file in the ini folder, and all it has to contain is the "crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 480" line and that's it?

Yes, but 240 instead of 256, I've just edited my previous comment.

May I bother you one last time?

I tested out a bunch of vertical games. All of them work beautifully after using your settings. The only one I had an issue with was Punch Out and Super Punch Out.

Before your fix, it worked fine (two small screens; one on top of one another). However, now both screens are huge, so I can only see the bottom half of the top screen and the top half of the bottom screen.

Is there any way to fix that? Or is it basically a negative I will have to deal with with the modified INI settings?

Thank you as always in advance

Calamity

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Create a custom ini file for Punch Out and set default crt_range settings in it.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

DaddyLongLegs

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Create a custom ini file for Punch Out and set default crt_range settings in it.

So just make a punchout.ini file and put it
Code: [Select]
crt_range0  15625-16200, 49.50-65.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 256, 448, 512
and that's it?

But that's already in my mame.ini; only vertical.ini is where there are changes. Or does Punch Out actually report as a vertical game even though it's 2 horizontal screens?

And now that I mention it....is there any way using crt_emudriver ini settings to make Punch Out only use the lower screen in full screen? As far as I know the top screen isn't really needed.

buttersoft

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Haven't been following the later range line stuff, but try setting "numscreens" to 2. That tells Mame not to shoehorn everything the game outputs onto one screen. Works with outrunners.

EDIT: if you need to send a particular mame screen to a particular physical display, open ArcadeOSD and take note of your display name number up the top, then transpose that into mame.ini to screen 1 or 2 or whatever it's clalled.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 02:00:39 am by buttersoft »

DaddyLongLegs

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Haven't been following the later range line stuff, but try setting "numscreens" to 2. That tells Mame not to shoehorn everything the game outputs onto one screen. Works with outrunners.

EDIT: if you need to send a particular mame screen to a particular physical display, open ArcadeOSD and take note of your display name number up the top, then transpose that into mame.ini to screen 1 or 2 or whatever it's clalled.

Thank you! I will try this as soon as I am done installing the cap kit in my monitor!  :)

  
 

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