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Author Topic: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.  (Read 5949 times)

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Howard_Casto

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So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« on: September 24, 2017, 11:00:45 pm »
Yeah I was afraid this would happen.  Star Trek Discovery just isn't very good.  They seem to have mixed both the worst of the JJ films and the worst of the tv shows to combine into a ball of awful.  The production values of the show are dramatically increased, almost movie quality, but they ruined it by insisting of shooting every shot at a weird angle, lighting all of the interesting stuff poorly, and over-designing all the ships and costumes till it looks like bad Michael Bay cgi.  Oh and now everybody communicates via Star Wars holograms, even though this series takes place BEFORE Kirk and the gang.  They did the same thing with the Klingons.... they're now bald, have vampire fangs and dress like Egyptian drag queens.  Their ships, which have barely changed in style since TOS, now look like the aforementioned cgi cluster----smurfs---. 

And as bad as all of that is, the plot of the first episode is even worse.  It starts with an opening shot of the Klingons, then some minor stuff happens and the Discovery crew find an unknown object in space.  Could it be.... the Klingons?  I mean I'm pretty sure it is, cause you had just shown them for no reason at the opening of the show.  Then another scene with the Klingons explaining their plan.  So they go back to the Discovery and the rest of the episode is them speculating on the plan THAT WE ALREADY KNOW.  Dear god, it's like the writers completely forgot about the viewer's perspective.  I mean if the scenes would have been more interesting I could see it, but as I explained before, most scenes, especially the action scenes and exterior space shots are dark and poorly lit, so it was dull as hell.  It took a full 45 min episode to have one thing happen.  What happened would have normally taken up the first 2 minutes on a typical TNG episode. 

Maybe it's just a bad pilot, so I'll at least give the next episode (where hopefully something actually happens) a try, but thus far, the Orville, which is technically a parody of Star Trek, is doing better Star Trek than the official outing.

opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2017, 11:46:02 pm »
Uh oh, Howard doesn’t like it, someone responsible for this pilot better get fired or their pay cut.  ::)

lilshawn

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2017, 11:48:46 pm »
I agree. I was a real next generation nerd back in the day... but this... was so overly dramatic and ridiculous. Like, You see an unknown object and instead of studying it,  you send your 1st officer into space with a jet pack to damn near die of radiation? I can't imagine any captain ever making that decision unless it was a dire situation and it was needed to survive. This already seems like all action and no substance. I didn't even watch the whole thing.




Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 12:12:04 am »
Yeah it didn't make any sense... especially considering ships have probes they can launch.... if the probe doesn't come back or something bad happens THEN you start thinking about ways to get over there. 

And even the action wasn't that action packed... it was just sort of there. 

Did you notice how the crew kept using snarky sarcasm?  It like they saw the Avengers and somehow thought that kind of banter suddenly fit in the Star Trek universe.

You've gotta understand... I even managed to enjoy Enterprise after they got a couple of seasons in.  This is just... bad...

opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 01:00:58 am »
I was fine with sending the first officer out there. It was mainly a plot point to force the encounter with the klingons, and show off some much needed exterior space shots, something that the Abrams style Star Trek has been doing.

But I must admit, I didn't like the hologram usage in this. Leave that to Star Wars. Star Trek was always about using mainly on-screen video conferencing and I don't think the usage of hologram tech should have been introduced into this series in this way.

Overall I felt the pilot was just "ok". Didn't blow me away, but I also didn't think it was bad. I didn't go into this expecting TNG or DS9, but I was expecting to see some sort of continuity with the newer Star Trek movies, which so far other than the lens flares and over abundance of dutch-angle camera shots is the only thing tied to the movies. I guess the Klingon design takes from the movies as well, but the interior of their ship felt like they were using some left-over set dressing from Quark's bar in DS9.

The first officer is somewhat intriguing of a character, I would like to see her backstory, but she's the only one so far that seems interesting. I was disappointed to see Michelle Yeoh as a "special guest" in the opening credits. I was hoping that she'd be a primary character because I'm always happy to see more lead character Asian actors.
Also, what's the story with the Daft Punk helmsman?  I hope he starts droppin some mad beats on the bridge lol :lol

I'll tune in a bit longer and give it a chance. When I first watched DS9 and Enterprise the first season was a crawl for me, but I eventually started enjoying it afterwards. I'm hoping that this picks up.

The bigger issue is CBS's stream server plug. Wth are they thinking?  Quality of their service suuuuucks, and I'm not going to pay $6/month for one show I'm on the fence about when they don't have any other programming that's even remotely interesting. I just found it annoying that they're pushing episode 2 tonight on their service, like a drug-dealer giving you the "first hit for free".  It's not that great of a pilot to hook people that easily.  Surely they must know everyone is out there pirating episode 2 now...

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 01:18:49 am »
It's supposed to take place in the prime Star Trek Universe.... which is why the cosmetic changes, particularly to the Klingons (which do NOT have ridges in this time period) make zero sense.  It's set between Enterprise and TOS.  The first officer is the main character of the series... it's been confirmed that they start on this ship... "something" happens and it gets destroyed, and then she helms the discovery.  I shouldn't have called it "the discovery" before, but for the life of me I can't remember the name of the first ship. 

Here's the thing.  I know that when TNG came on the air they changed a lot of stuff, even the makeups, people got mad but eventually it worked itself out.  The difference is it was done with care.  Yes they added forehead ridges to the Klingons, but they wore the same uniforms, flew in the same ships and were still Klingons.  These new guys almost seem like a cult and their ships look awful... just a mess of ornate garbage shapes.  The federation ship kinda sorta looks like TOS movie ships, which is about right, but the hologram tech and stuff just doesn't fit. 

They have full reign so if they wanted to do a more alien species why not make a new one instead of butchering the Klingons?  If they wanted a new look and new tech why not set it after tng, so they don't have to worm around Trek lore to avoid conflicts and plot holes?  It's lazy writing if you ask me.

Yes the beard has to grow in with any Trek series, but I can always see the potential.  With this pilot they went in such a very odd direction that I don't know if it can be saved.  maybe episode 2 will pick up... I'll watch it tomorrow.   

All access will die a quick death.  It might be they knew this series was bad, but after all the time and money they invested they were embarrassed, so they buried it on all access.  It would be a good scapegoat when the show doesn't get the typical ratings of a Trek series.   

nitrogen_widget

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 04:30:55 pm »
Missed it last night but i'll watch it this week.
The only thing I can say is the audio trailer on the radio did sound kind of cringy when i assume the woman who was the captain was talking tough.
but I wasn't seeing it so it was out of context.

for klingons - doesn't completely matter what they look like to a point as long as the culture is the same, but they look reptilian and remind me of Louis Gossett Jr.  from enemy mine.

All this trek talk makes me want to start watching DS9 or TNG again.
I think they are still on Netflix.

This CBS all access app any better than last yr?
I had tried it when some stuff was still free and it did not work well at all and even locked up my 2106 firestick.
when they turned subscription i deleted it.

pbj

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 04:48:00 pm »
It was a tumultuous time for our nation. The clear beverage craze gave us all a reason to live.

The information superhighway showed the average person what some nerd thinks about Star Trek.



And the domestication of the dog continued unabated.

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 05:31:26 pm »

for klingons - doesn't completely matter what they look like to a point as long as the culture is the same, but they look reptilian and remind me of Louis Gossett Jr.  from enemy mine.


Actually... if you know your Trek, it does.  The reason that Klingons don't have forehead ridges in TOS is because on Enterprise we discover that the Klingons steal Kahn's DNA and try to weaponize it into a Klingon super-soldier serum.  Something goes wrong and they actually create a mutagenic  virus that, cosmetically at least, turns all Klingons human.  It takes generations to breed out the genetic deformities, making them normal again.  Since this show takes place after Enterprise, they should look human.  Again, they could have easily avoided this by just setting the show in a different time period. 

Regardless, they seem to have changed their culture as well, but it'd take more episodes  to be sure. 

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 06:25:38 pm »
Oh and now everybody communicates via Star Wars holograms, even though this series takes place BEFORE Kirk and the gang.

Considering how anachronistic the various ST series have been in the past, I'm perfectly fine with them updating the tech depicted.  I'd rather have them shoot for something a little more modern, then trying to depict a pre-TOS level of technology.

opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2017, 06:47:35 pm »
Oh and now everybody communicates via Star Wars holograms, even though this series takes place BEFORE Kirk and the gang.

Considering how anachronistic the various ST series have been in the past, I'm perfectly fine with them updating the tech depicted.  I'd rather have them shoot for something a little more modern, then trying to depict a pre-TOS level of technology.

But it's "Star Wars Hologram ++"!  Where the person in the message is interacting with physical elements of the receiver. There's a shot where Sarek, surrogate father to the First Officer is in a conversation through the hologram communication and walks over and leans on a table in the room!  This was too far IMO.

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2017, 07:42:08 pm »
Yeah and that really bothered me.  The only way that'd make sense is if there was an identical table in the same exact place over on Vulcan or wherever he's at.  It's like the people writing the show don't even know how holograms work. 

nitrogen_widget

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2017, 10:10:17 pm »

for klingons - doesn't completely matter what they look like to a point as long as the culture is the same, but they look reptilian and remind me of Louis Gossett Jr.  from enemy mine.


Actually... if you know your Trek, it does.  The reason that Klingons don't have forehead ridges in TOS is because on Enterprise we discover that the Klingons steal Kahn's DNA and try to weaponize it into a Klingon super-soldier serum.  Something goes wrong and they actually create a mutagenic  virus that, cosmetically at least, turns all Klingons human.  It takes generations to breed out the genetic deformities, making them normal again.  Since this show takes place after Enterprise, they should look human.  Again, they could have easily avoided this by just setting the show in a different time period. 

Regardless, they seem to have changed their culture as well, but it'd take more episodes  to be sure.

must have missed a few episodes of enterprise....

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 01:24:17 am »
You should watch the final two seasons.. they are really good.  Mirror mirror episodes, guest appearances from Brent Spiner... its' all great.  They actually cancelled that show when it started to get good.   

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 01:37:06 am »
But it's "Star Wars Hologram ++"!  Where the person in the message is interacting with physical elements of the receiver. There's a shot where Sarek, surrogate father to the First Officer is in a conversation through the hologram communication and walks over and leans on a table in the room!  This was too far IMO.

Ridiculous holographic technology is a staple of ST.  Look at all the nonsensical crap they pulled with the holodeck on TNG...

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 02:26:45 am »
I don't think you aren't paying attention man. This isn't a holodeck program, it's communication between two people and yet somehow the one person can sit on a table that doesn't exist on his end. That doesn't make any logical sense.... it's like cartoon logic.  Also holodeck technology wasn't introduced in the federation until the 24th century, well before this show takes place.  It also requires... you know... a frikkin holodeck!  That is until the mobile emitter is invented in the 25th century... the one that they steal from a time traveler and give to the doctor in that one episode of voyager. 

I get the feeling perhaps you are one of those dreaded casual Star Trek fans.   Please learn the lore or gtfo. 

nitrogen_widget

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2017, 09:21:13 am »
You should watch the final two seasons.. they are really good.  Mirror mirror episodes, guest appearances from Brent Spiner... its' all great.  They actually cancelled that show when it started to get good.

I missed a lot of enterprise when it aired.
I see it's on netflix.
So is DS9, started watching that from the beginning last night.

pbj

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2017, 09:57:51 am »
I watched the first episode of Enterprise.  It seemed decent.  I also recall that the powers that be tried really, really, really hard to push Jolene Blalock on us as the new it girl.


Mike A

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2017, 10:06:06 am »
I liked Enterprise. They were just hitting their stride when the plug was pulled.

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2017, 12:05:32 pm »
I don't think you aren't paying attention man. This isn't a holodeck program, it's communication between two people and yet somehow the one person can sit on a table that doesn't exist on his end. That doesn't make any logical sense.... it's like cartoon logic.  Also holodeck technology wasn't introduced in the federation until the 24th century, well before this show takes place.  It also requires... you know... a frikkin holodeck!  That is until the mobile emitter is invented in the 25th century... the one that they steal from a time traveler and give to the doctor in that one episode of voyager.

I'm not talking about the context of the technology within the show itself.  I'm talking about the illogic of the technology as depicted.  Depictions of the Holodeck are just as guilty of cartoon logic as someone leaning on a desk during  a holographic communication.

If people are going to start nitpicking technology on these shows, they are a long time guilty of stuff that just makes no sense.

Quote
I get the feeling perhaps you are one of those dreaded casual Star Trek fans.   Please learn the lore or gtfo.

Admittedly the only series I ever watched in its entirety was TNG, although I am working my way through DS9 (a far better series than TNG ever was).

I just think a lot of stuff depicted on the show is silly, which is I don't understand why people nitpick the show.  Sometimes you just have to turn your brain off and accept that things in sci-fi don't make any logical sense.  TNG taught me that over and over.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 12:10:25 pm by shponglefan »

lilshawn

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #20 on: September 26, 2017, 01:12:28 pm »
yes.... holograms... let's talk about that for a second.

for a series whose timeline is set BEFORE Captain Kirk and the original Star Trek series.... why do we have infinitely more advanced technology?

put this series way after so that talking to communication holograms fits in and seems to flow with the rest of the series or make it "period correct"

I get they need to make it appeal to the people watching, but... all they are doing is pushing away the old crowd and trying to appeal the show to the new "hip crowd".

opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #21 on: September 26, 2017, 02:19:21 pm »
But it's "Star Wars Hologram ++"!  Where the person in the message is interacting with physical elements of the receiver. There's a shot where Sarek, surrogate father to the First Officer is in a conversation through the hologram communication and walks over and leans on a table in the room!  This was too far IMO.

Ridiculous holographic technology is a staple of ST.  Look at all the nonsensical crap they pulled with the holodeck on TNG...

You are missing the point. The timeline of technology doesn't make sense in the canon of the Star Trek Universe.  And it does matter to people who have been following these shows since they're supposed to link up to it's "chrono-logistics", otherwise it pulls you out of the universe they've built and distracts you from what's happen at that time.  For me it distracted the whole pep-talk dialogue that Sarek was giving.

I'm not talking about the context of the technology within the show itself.  I'm talking about the illogic of the technology as depicted.  Depictions of the Holodeck are just as guilty of cartoon logic as someone leaning on a desk during  a holographic communication.

If people are going to start nitpicking technology on these shows, they are a long time guilty of stuff that just makes no sense.
Yes, sure...but it was consistent!  By introducing more advanced technology in a time period that is supposed to be the past doesn't make sense in the show's universe! 

The core basis of sci-fi is to build a fantasy that follows along a created set of "rules" and "themes". Good sci-fi sticks to these rules and are able to create a believable universe for stories to be told in.  But this show has broken their rules already, which is what we're all talking about here. If you don't keep the integrity of the universe you create, you end up losing the audience because they don't know where the boundaries are for that show's "reality".

Would you like it if Star Wars started using transport technology?

opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #22 on: September 26, 2017, 02:21:28 pm »
I watched the first episode of Enterprise.  It seemed decent.  I also recall that the powers that be tried really, really, really hard to push Jolene Blalock on us as the new it girl.
How could you tell?  It's not like there was a gratuitous lotion rubbing scene in the first episode or anything...  :o

DrakeTungsten

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #23 on: September 26, 2017, 03:56:21 pm »
Yeah and that really bothered me.  The only way that'd make sense is if there was an identical table in the same exact place over on Vulcan or wherever he's at.  It's like the people writing the show don't even know how holograms work.
This was in the new show? I never watched any of the post-60s shows, and one of the reasons is the the first scene I caught of one of them was just such a stupid misunderstanding of holograms. Someone later tried to explain to me something about "hard light", but it was likely as not a post-hoc cover-up of a monumental blunder.
Quote from: opt2not
By introducing more advanced technology in a time period that is supposed to be the past doesn't make sense in the show's universe! 
A wizard did it.

Or hypertime.

Or Kirk was old-fashioned and eschewed the use of holograms even though the tech was available to him.

Does anybody who hasn't studied volumes of ST reference manuals know when hologram tech was introduced?
No Quarter - a basic FE, WIP

dkersten

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2017, 06:08:50 pm »
I have to agree that given how many times the other series have pushed the viewers well out of the envelope of "suspense of disbelief", that picking on it in this iteration is somewhat hypocritical.  Good sci-fi will indeed explain away seemingly impossible things with pseudo science and a good back story and keep your disbelief suspended, but when was the last time you found "good sci-fi" on TV?

That being said, I can understand extreme fans of a universe not liking when established canon is broken. 

The good news is, there is a better "star trek like" show out there to keep you entertained.  Hell, I haven't watched either and I am entertained by all the memes out there making fun of the new series...

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2017, 02:35:08 am »
I get the feeling you don't understand what suspension of belief is.  The concept relies on the fact that the more fantastical the situation, the more the universe must be grounded in reality via a consistent set of rules, even if those rules are completely fictional.  Spaceships and weird aliens only work because the spaceships and weird aliens and all their fantastical lore and culture are consistent from one iteration to the next.  The show runners made it clear that this wasn't supposed to be a reboot and yet they've broken so much canon that it definitely is.  I mean they've got Sarek playing the part of Obi Wan... a frikkin Vulcan.

I watched the second episode hoping it would get better and... well it's better than the first episode in terms of action, but sadly plot takes a nose dive.  Apparently Vulcans are now magic and can telepathically communicate with someone light years apart.  Cloaking technology is supposed to be new, even though it was on Enterprise and photon torpedoes fit in your hand even though they are so large that Spock was frikkin buried in one in Star Trek II, the most famous of the Trek movies.  See that isn't even obscure trivia... any casual viewer would know that.   

The whole thing about these Klingons mounting caskets to the hull in some sort of egyptian-esque ceremony.... that's in complete opposition to Klingon culture.  In a Klingon death ritual the eyes are opened, they yell at the sky to warn Stovokor that a Klingon warrior is about to arrive (which to be fair they kind of did) BUT then the body is discarded like garbage because they consider it nothing but an empty husk.  Klingons don't entomb their dead and they don't bother to recover corpses on the battlefield.

Oh and the plot of the upcoming season?  Discovery is some kind of prison work camp ship where #1 is an elite soldier and they are on a secret mission to take out the enemy.  Guess what?  We already had that plot on Enterprise and people hated it so much that we didn't get another series for 12 years. 

I mean is it that hard to do a new Star Trek series that isn't crap?  Seth McFarlane seems to be doing it and he's kind of a moron.  All you have to do is follow the TNG formula, only with a new crew and new adventures.  If you are too dumb to take into account canon, just set it after the TNG movies and you barely have to worry about it anymore. 

opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2017, 04:22:58 am »
 :banghead: Yep, after watching episode 2, they lost me. I have the sinking feeling that this show isn't coming back for a second season.   :embarassed: And I really wanted to dive into a new Star Trek series. I guess I'll keep watching this season, but for damn sure I'm not paying for it.

nitrogen_widget

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2017, 09:57:31 am »
:banghead: Yep, after watching episode 2, they lost me. I have the sinking feeling that this show isn't coming back for a second season.   :embarassed: And I really wanted to dive into a new Star Trek series. I guess I'll keep watching this season, but for damn sure I'm not paying for it.

Still haven't seen it. no time.

I didn't realize until last night they only showed the first episode on broadcast and the rest was only accessible through their app.
That you have to pay for.
Is this their first attempt at this sort of thing?
It works for Netflix however some of the shows Netflix created are good.

yotsuya

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2017, 10:32:01 am »
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2017, 10:34:22 am »
Actually, I agree with you guys. If you’re going to create an installment in an existing universe/franchise, you need to play by the existing rules - or else die-hard fans will notice, and they should be your target audience.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2017, 10:39:31 am »
exactly. at this point in time, they may has well created a completely new franchise. Trying to shoehorn this into a world that has already been established is just going to wreck it.

I'm reading comments elsewhere that say pretty much the same thing. still waiting for the youtube autists to post videos explaining how this new show fits completely and perfectly well into the Trek universe and explain away all the shortcomings as "X rule hasn't been established yet, so here it okay.".

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2017, 11:20:22 am »
Rogue One was a great example of how to do it right. All though the SW prequels we get Jedi doing ninja flips at hyper speed, but at the end, when Vader is cutting a swath of fury through the corridors of the rebel ship, he moves exactly as you would expect him to based on what we know about him. It's a perfect ending that fits the existing notion of that universe.
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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2017, 11:44:35 am »
You are missing the point. The timeline of technology doesn't make sense in the canon of the Star Trek Universe.  And it does matter to people who have been following these shows since they're supposed to link up to it's "chrono-logistics", otherwise it pulls you out of the universe they've built and distracts you from what's happen at that time.  For me it distracted the whole pep-talk dialogue that Sarek was giving.

Oh, I get it believe me.  I just can let things like that slide for reasons I'll get into below.

Quote
Yes, sure...but it was consistent!  By introducing more advanced technology in a time period that is supposed to be the past doesn't make sense in the show's universe! 

The core basis of sci-fi is to build a fantasy that follows along a created set of "rules" and "themes". Good sci-fi sticks to these rules and are able to create a believable universe for stories to be told in.  But this show has broken their rules already, which is what we're all talking about here. If you don't keep the integrity of the universe you create, you end up losing the audience because they don't know where the boundaries are for that show's "reality".

I have two lines of thought on this:

The first is that invariably Star Trek series are a product of their time.  Everything from the production and special effects, to the writing is a consequence of the period in which these shows are created.  I did a complete TNG re-watch last year and was amazed at how dated it feels now.  Particularly what we know of modern technology and society and how certain aspects of the show feel less modern and more like they just transplanted the 80's into the 24th century.

So I fully expect each new ST series to be reflective of the current age in which it is developed.  And this can include things like updating special effects, particularly to include things to appeal to modern audiences.

The second is that prior Star Treks are not entirely consistent in how they depict technology.  The reason I pick on TNG and the Holodeck in particular is because it is inconsistent in how its depicted over the seasons.  For example, in the very first episode they make a big show of demonstrating the physical boundaries of the Holodeck.  In later episodes, that's completely forgotten.  Likewise, they don't show any consistency in how matter created on the Holodeck is depicted either when it comes to being removed from the Holodeck.  Yes this is nitpicking, but if we are going to nitpick about how things are supposed to work within the 'rules' of what is being depicted, then there are plenty of violations of that pre-Discovery.

But generally I'm content to ignore such things lest it otherwise ruin the experience.  People who get overly hyped up over the way something is depicted in a TV show need to just remind themselves that it's completely fictional to begin with.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 11:46:21 am by shponglefan »

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2017, 11:55:05 am »
All you have to do is follow the TNG formula, only with a new crew and new adventures.

I'd rather have them rehash DS9's formula than TNG.  TNG's plot-of-the-week storytelling was too primitive and problematic.  Give me continuity please.

« Last Edit: September 27, 2017, 11:56:44 am by shponglefan »

pbj

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2017, 01:05:43 pm »
Rogue One was a great example of how to do it right.

Really?  That movie was freaking terrible.  I agree that the end with Vader was cool, though.


Mike A

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2017, 01:17:37 pm »
Serialized TV shows often get trapped by their own narrative. Good stories are often ruined because writers have to move the plot along. Star Trek is the perfect vehicle for new stories every week.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2017, 05:00:59 pm »
I know people who refuse to watch South Park now because they don't like the whole-season story arc concept of the past few seasons.

They prefer the old self contained half hour of entertainment.


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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #37 on: September 27, 2017, 05:19:44 pm »
So, I used to walk to a video store 20+ years ago to rent South Park VHS tapes because our cable company refused to carry Viacom.  Had never seen anything like it.

A few years later, I was watching them at work.  We'd make a party out of it each week.  That was in the Lemmiwinks era of peak South Park

Point being, I've been there since the beginning... the old self-contained stories were fun, but it meant most of their episodes had some lazy ending where an alien or monster or something shows up.  The multiple episode story arcs were a nice change up.

Now I quit watching it because it's horrible.  I didn't even make it 10 minutes into the season premier.

 :'(


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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2017, 09:08:36 pm »
Ok, i watched it.
Both episodes.
keep in mind the most i know about this show is what i read here and i'm on my second pitcher of homebrew. Without dinner.
But don't worry i have ground turkey, salsa, rice, cheese and many spices I plan to bake for 20 mins. at 350 degrees, so dinner is close. :)

Started out with too much bantering, casual dialogue, and bubblyness for what i expect from star trek felt there was more formality in Down Periscope.
Once chit got real with the klingons it straightened up.
Why does a chic have a dudes name?

Klingons - their decorating style reminds me of stargate.How do a bunch of Bro's even manage technology beyond big sticks yet alone star ships? Oh they are warrior cast which means there is a less than warrior cast who builds their stuff and they somehow don't kill them while they are doing it because klingons can't stand weaklings.
 Also i'm sure it wasn't a mistake the white guy is the minority and considered scum to the black klingons. bleh.
As for their look - I cannot place it but they look like something i've seen before somewhere in some fantasy/sci-fi thing. I don't hate it but how do you even fight in all that spangly crap?
The whole religious culture of Klingon is different. but I don't have too much of an issue with it since zealots rise and fall so religion can be gone fairly quick far as i'm concerned.


holograms - the writers past star trek's stated they wanted to do holograms but the screen was cheaper. they got more $$$ if they came up with an excuse why we don't see holo comunicators later on like they caused brain cancer or sterility i'm golden with that. :) but i'm not a purist. I lost my purity when Run DMC covered AC/DC.

things that annoyed me:
chick with dude name.
majority of male's doesn't seem to have a nut-sack except the admiral. If Abraham from Hell Boy became part of the crew he would quadruple the testosterone level of the ship.
That red heads eye brows. WTF?
100lb old asian chick blocking a 210 klingon's weapon swing and NOT flying backwards. yeah I don't care if she was crouching tiger hidden dragon, she didn't have no magic sword with her on this away mission.

Things that made me lol:
The shielding that apparently requires a human sacrifice before it kick's on and contains the atmosphere.

I can see how the purists would have issues with this like the purists have issues with most comic book moves but i'm a mouth breather.
I didn't think it was horrible and will watch if I can find it online for free because it seems like the first two episodes have nothing much to do with the rest of the series based on previews other than to be an origin story.

fyi i'm kinda drunk.


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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2017, 11:21:03 pm »
 Best post around here in weeks.

 :applaud:

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2017, 11:32:32 pm »
Serialized TV shows often get trapped by their own narrative. Good stories are often ruined because writers have to move the plot along. Star Trek is the perfect vehicle for new stories every week.

The downside of the adventure-of-the-week storytelling though is a (somewhat) consequence-free universe and lack of character development.  TNG suffered from this a lot.

It's possible to have a happy medium with adventures-of-the-week, but still maintain a coherent overall narrative.  Firefly was a good example of that; or it would have been if Fox had aired the bloody series in the proper order.

wp34

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2017, 06:37:17 pm »
My wife and I are really enjoying The Orville.  I'm not saying it is a great show (the acting and writing are suspect) but it is a lot of fun.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2017, 08:59:13 pm »
My wife and I are really enjoying The Orville.  I'm not saying it is a great show (the acting and writing are suspect) but it is a lot of fun.

haha never heard of this.
I love it!

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2017, 09:05:14 pm »
ok so 3rd episode seemed like a different series.
the weird captain may or may not get annoying.
Will keep watching.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2017, 09:13:11 pm »
I thought the 3rd episode was the worst so far. A billion forced plot devices, bad acting (looking at you questionably gay science officer, and cadet roommate), more magic than science, and the whole Alice in Wonderland spin fell so flat it was eye-rolling cringe worthy.

So far from the first episode the series has been getting worse and worst.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2017, 09:27:07 pm »
Yeah it was bad.  I was hoping they might lighten the hell up now that they are on the ship, but nope.... looks like the entire season is gonna be this dark federation black-ops conspiracy deal.  It reminds me of that episode where Riker is with his old captain to recover a device that puts ships out of phase, only the federation outlawed it, ect.  Only that was cleared up in an episode.... no need to drag out a plot like this for a whole season. 

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2017, 08:49:46 pm »
forget discovery, the Orville is actually not bad.
Thought it was just a goof my McFarlene but they actually sneak in some moral thought provoking stuff in there while being entertaining and funny.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2017, 09:23:45 am »
No surprise that Discovery sucks... has there ever been anything Star Trek that can be considered good?

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2017, 09:31:01 am »
You can leave now.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2017, 11:22:07 am »
You know what would make Discovery better? If they used a Pi to control everything.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Mike A

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2017, 11:34:59 am »
The bridge should have a pedestal with an aircraft carrier top and angled joysticks. The view screen will be 26 inches.

opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2017, 12:13:54 pm »
You know what would make Discovery better? If they used a Pi to control everything.
:laugh2:

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2017, 01:14:00 pm »
They could really use some rgb leds.... you know... to LIGHT THE SET.  Seriously the cinematographer needs fired.  There are many acceptable ways to hide a crummy set, but making it so dark that you can't see anything isn't one of them.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2017, 01:32:26 pm »
I think this is the first time Trek put out something that I have zero desire to even try watching.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2017, 01:50:20 pm »
I think this is the first time Trek put out something that I have zero desire to even try watching.

Same.  Never thought I would say that either.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2017, 01:56:20 pm »
Well what kills me is quite a few "professional" critics are giving it good reviews.  Just goes to show that the quality of critics has really went downhill.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2017, 01:59:08 am »
They must be hard-up for cash these days.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2017, 07:36:21 am »
Well what kills me is quite a few "professional" critics are giving it good reviews.  Just goes to show that the quality of critics has really went downhill.

FWIW, IMDB is currently show a score of 7.3/10.

In comparison, Enterprise has a 7.5 and Voyager a 7.7.

So it's not that far off other Star Trek series.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2017, 10:27:27 am »
No surprise that Discovery sucks... has there ever been anything Star Trek that can be considered good?
NO MORE!!

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2017, 08:20:06 pm »
Cool, someone found safe space to continue the pile-on!

Captain's log. Stardate E5150. Pi fanboys are lame, even in the future. Hyuk Hyuk.
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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #60 on: October 07, 2017, 10:34:54 pm »
The latest episode of The Orville (with Charlize Theron) was the best one yet.  It had several funny bits and a clever storyline.  It bothered me at first they promoted the show as a parody but to be honest I like the direction they are heading with slightly more serious plots. 

I feel like one of the Pi guys except I'm dumping on the Star Trek thread with The Orville.   ;D

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #61 on: October 07, 2017, 10:52:41 pm »
The latest episode of The Orville (with Charlize Theron) was the best one yet.  It had several funny bits and a clever storyline.  It bothered me at first they promoted the show as a parody but to be honest I like the direction they are heading with slightly more serious plots. 

I feel like one of the Pi guys except I'm dumping on the Star Trek thread with The Orville.   ;D

Watch an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville Watch an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville Watch an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville Watch an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville Watch an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville Watch an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville Watch an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville an Orville watch an Orville watch an Orville

;)
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2017, 10:57:39 pm »
No the Orville is a superior show in that it understands the genre and goes with it.  Now if only the acting and writing were on par with a contemporary scifi show it'd be perfect.  As someone who's digested every single solitary episode of star trek and all the spin-offs, and the movies, and a decent chunk of the comics and books, the stories on the Orville are just a tad predictable.  They are taking bits and pieces from previous Star Trek episodes, particularly TNG, and turning them into their own work.  Then again, that can be said for practically every scifi show as TNG literally invented modern science fiction.... I just wish they'd be a bit less obvious about it. 

Totally saw that amputated leg bit btw... I still laughed, it was damn funny.  Lt. Commander Data inspired humor is the best.  The prop guy needs punished though.... the leg they found was a full leg, while in the previous shot we see that it was amputated at the knee. 

Mike A

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2017, 11:45:59 pm »
The Orville is getting better with each episode. I like it.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2017, 12:06:16 am »
I've seen the first episode of the Orville and while I can appreciate what they are trying to do, I found the juxtaposition of the story and setting with the attempted humor a bit off-putting.  It felt like a show that didn't know what it was trying to be, and MacFarlane's non-sequitur style of humor wasn't particularly fitting.

I feel like if they could even out the tone of the show, it could really be something great.

Guess I should watch more episodes and see where it goes...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 12:09:37 am by shponglefan »

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #65 on: October 19, 2017, 11:04:45 pm »
so I watched episodes 4 and 5 despite my better judgment.  The good news is the show gets better, the bad news is it doesn't undo the canon-breaking first three episodes and the show and Star Trek in general, will have to deal with that crap from now on.  You know those weird magic marker black Klingon designs?  Gone.  And with each episode they are starting to look more and more like the classic design.  Oh and that b.s. about that one Klingon being white and how white Klingons are shunned even though we've seen TONS of white Klingons over the years?  Yeah well every Klingon thus far has also been white. 

Anyway....

Episodes 4 and 5 revolve around the b.s. pseudo-science mysticism that is the "spore drive" as the main story, but the b-story is about the morality of war and some interpersonal relationships, which, as we know, are the bread and butter of Star Trek.  The bad news is the main story is still crap, but the b-stories are getting there.  There's still some weirdness going on, like that very odd roommate of Michael's, but it's at least good enough to watch to see if it gets better.  There's a gay couple, which is great, but probably about 8 years too late to be relevant.  Orville is still stellar. 

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #66 on: October 30, 2017, 04:57:27 pm »
Good job, Star Trek Discovery, you managed to end Kevin Spacey's career, too.


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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2017, 10:21:45 pm »
Pretty sure Kevin Spacey ended his career.  I have no sympathy for a guy that tried to molest a 14 year old boy. 

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #68 on: November 01, 2017, 11:12:46 am »
yeah, ownership certainly isn't on the actor who made the complaint.  We don't know the entire story so I wasn't ready to crucify Spacey but then his twitter apology showed him to be one heck of a --cream-filled twinkie--.  He's played a politician for so long that he's tried the re-direct apology in real life.  Didn't work Kevin...

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #69 on: November 01, 2017, 11:39:47 am »
Good job, Star Trek Discovery, you managed to end Kevin Spacey's career, too.

I guess you can say this turned into a chit show.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #70 on: November 01, 2017, 12:25:05 pm »
Quote
Kevin Spacey ruined Kevin Spacey's career

FTFY

BadMouth

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #71 on: November 01, 2017, 08:15:24 pm »
Came here to say The Orville episode 7 was friggin' brilliant.


Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #72 on: November 01, 2017, 08:28:21 pm »
IT was a very TNG "HERE IS THE LESSON!!!  PAY ATTENTION AND LEARN THE LESSON!!!" sort of episode.  Not that it's a bad thing. 

pbj

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #73 on: November 01, 2017, 09:06:19 pm »
Is The Orville actually a serious show?


wp34

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #74 on: November 01, 2017, 09:18:14 pm »
Came here to say The Orville episode 7 was friggin' brilliant.

It was really good.  It reminded me of an episode of Black Mirror.

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2017, 11:27:38 pm »
Is The Orville actually a serious show?

Yup... with some random jokes thrown in. 

BadMouth

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #76 on: November 02, 2017, 07:41:33 am »
Is The Orville actually a serious show?
More serious than expected, but still goofy enough that it isn't expected to have every little detail conform to details of a past episode or established universe.  In an earlier episode they had a device which made them appear as a different race of alien.  In the latest episode, they resorted to a big hat and nose bandage.  I wasn't bothered because it's not a serious show anyway.

Mike A

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #77 on: November 02, 2017, 09:02:35 am »
Everything is so serious these days. I like to watch stuff like the Orville.

wp34

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #78 on: November 02, 2017, 09:26:07 am »
More serious than expected, but still goofy enough that it isn't expected to have every little detail conform to details of a past episode or established universe.

I think this is why I'm enjoying the show so much.  You can just watch it and not worry about canon or continuity because clearly the writers are not trying to build a consistent world.  It is just a fun show.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #79 on: November 02, 2017, 05:01:32 pm »
It's like if my office was on a space ship but with no HR to be reported to for swearing.

nitrogen_widget

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #80 on: November 03, 2017, 06:54:05 am »
Bangs the admiral then throw her under the klingon bus in order to keep his post.
save the admiral huh?
yeah lets see what star fleet says even though i've ordered us into the belly of the beast numerous times before and to hell with what starfleet says.

who didn't see that coming a mile away?

ok. the show has gotten better.
still prefer orville.


opt2not

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #81 on: November 03, 2017, 05:56:44 pm »
Ugh, 7 Episodes in and they've already played the -stuck in a time loop- card. This show is such a train wreck.

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #82 on: November 03, 2017, 08:04:41 pm »
I actually liked 7, but more in a campy b-movie way.  Some things were terrible and very un-trek-like but in such a way that they wrapped around and became sort of charming.  Like the star fleet rave party.  That was pretty stupid and very kelvin universe.  I thought it was pretty bad-ass when Mudd came out of the space whale with a space suit that was so cheesy it should have been on Lost in Space.  Also the space whale... again, let's blow canon to hell.  The first space whale-ish creature seen in Starfleet was that one on TNG, which they could have dodged a little bit, but absolutely nobody seemed impressed or suprised by the space whale..... if anything they seemed a bit annoyed. 

Last night's Orville was pretty good.  It's yet another recycled tng plot, but it was world building and done very well.  Poor-man's Data FTW!

Loafmeister

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #83 on: November 09, 2017, 08:23:30 am »
This thread seems to be as much for The Orville as it is for ST Discovery so here goes with my opinion on the Orville.

After 4 episodes in, I have to say I'm way more impressed with this show than I thought I'd be. I'm neither a fan nor a non-fan of Seth MacFarlane but I have to say there's been a few bouts of actual acting in some of these episodes, especially the gender re-assignment one.  The Orville plays like Star Trek light, don't worry about the details, just have fun and look at the heart.  Specific to the gender reassignment, yes, that is like classic Trek and kudos on them for going with the ending they did.  The only thing I was expecting that maybe I wish they had done, is some kind of scan of the planet showing gender reassignment isn't the rare event they have said it is (kind of alluded with the companion and the female) but I get that may have gotten too far from the main point.  Like good sci-fi, the episode made you think afterwards, for both sides of the argument and even different arguments. Well done!

The early teasers/trailers for this show were really off-base though, giving us the impression it would be more Galaxy Quest style but as it's been stated in this thread, it's really a drama with some comedic bits.  If I can be critical, I like this type of comedy but they are doing such a decent job with the drama parts that I wonder if it's not misplaced at times.  Still, when they nail a joke, I do indeed laugh so I guess they know what they are doing.

I still have quite a few other episodes to catch up on and as far as ST:D is concerned, I'm only watched 2 halves of 2 episodes, I do plan on watching from the beginning, just haven't gotten around to it. So although I haven't seen enough to really say which is better, I'll say I can't wait to watch more of the Orville while for ST:D, I guess I'll get around to it eventually.

lilshawn

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #84 on: November 09, 2017, 08:25:15 pm »

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2017, 10:52:46 pm »
Well there is this crackpot theory circulating that ST:D is set in the evil mirror universe and believe it or not episode 8 kind of alluded to that theory.  I'll try to avoid spoilers, but there is a crew member that is currently hooked up to the spore drive that is hallucinating after a jump.  They call the nerdy roommate "captain" and in a later scene explain that after a jump they feel "here in time and space one moment and events and history are shifted about the next"   I mean that sounds like an alternate universe to me and I don't see how they could invent a universe darker than the one they already have. 

Of course things have been fairly terrible thus far, so it could just be bad writing.  Honestly if there was anything to watch on Monday evenings I wouldn't be watching this train-wreck. 

lilshawn

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2017, 02:18:52 pm »
is an "alternate reality" an excuse for everybody hating it?

executive#1 EVERYONE HATES STAR TREK DISCOVERY!
executive#2 ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, enact the... ALTERNATE REALITY backup plan!
executive#1 until we hire new writers more in touch with what people want?
executive#2 EXACTLY!

nitrogen_widget

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2017, 08:54:25 pm »
is an "alternate reality" an excuse for everybody hating it?

executive#1 EVERYONE HATES STAR TREK DISCOVERY!
executive#2 ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, enact the... ALTERNATE REALITY backup plan!
executive#1 until we hire new writers more in touch with what people want?
executive#2 EXACTLY!

What are you talking about?
It's a highly rated show.
the internet says so. ::)

personally i got two episodes in the Q and looking for other stuff to watch on hulu and netflix.
it's not horrible or even bad, there is just other stuff i'd rather watch.

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2017, 11:12:39 pm »
Actually I haven't found a single person on the internet that liked it.  Now clueless Hollywood critics, they love the pos. 

Locke141

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #89 on: November 12, 2017, 07:29:07 am »
I like Discovery, a lot.

I came in with very low expectations and am very happy so far.
  • There was at the start of the show about 60+ years of canon. Star Trek has always played a little fast and lose with canon in order to keep telling relevant stories for the time the current show is in. In TOS the Klingons stood in for the USSR, how many times did they talk about there all important religion before Next Gen? In STNG the became much more like the Japanese. Ones bitter enemies who have become close allies, and are honor obsessed warriors.
    Discovery is looking at modern issue’s like ethnocentrism, cultural preservation, and ultra nationalism. The Klingons and elements of the Volcans are being used to tell stories around these issues. Make the empire Great again!!!
  • Enterprise went out of it’s way to fit into the Canon and even fixing continuity, some 30 years after it was broken. And they had one good season (the second) where they had to leave the usual stomping grounds of the federation to free themselves up to tell a new interesting story. And it didn't fit into the original time line ether, do to time travel.

There are lots of things I would have done differently, but I’m willing to give them time and space to tell new relevent stories.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 08:03:00 am by Locke141 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2017, 12:32:31 pm »
You don't blow away 50 years worth of the tightest canon in sci-fi history because "it's hard." That is an unforgivable sin, full stop.  Also if enterprise is so bad why did they go out of their way to make yet another prequel show that nobody wanted?  You can like it, I won't deny you that, but it is objectively bad and more importantly objectively bad Star Trek.  Canon, on Star Trek, is paramount.  There are over 280 hours of Star Trek out there with very few bad episodes/films.  Do you know what almost all of that bad content has in common?  Yup, they break canon.  Breaking canon is a warning sign that writers and show runners only have a superficial understanding of Star Trek and thus the episodes turn out sub-par because they don't understand the characters, tropes, and settings they are writing about. 

You say you wish to give them "space to tell new relevant stories".  How's that worked out so far?  They've done the "completing this mission is morally objective as it hurts a sentient creature" episode, the obligatory time loop episode and the "crew member is taken over by a seemingly good race of non-corporeal beings" episode.  Not a lot of new there, which would be fine, if they didn't ruin canon.  My point is there was zero reason to do it and this show needs to die so we can finally have a 25th century sequel to real Star Trek.

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2017, 01:46:02 pm »
Canon, on Star Trek, is paramount.

Is it really though?  I mean, again I can only really use TNG as an example since it's the only show I've bothered to watch end-to-end.  But owing to its lack of over-arching narrative, writers seemed to have no trouble introducing ideas and then eschewing them later.  The egregiously silly "warp speed limit" comes to mind...

Quote
There are over 280 hours of Star Trek out there with very few bad episodes/films.

TNG might have something to say about that...
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 03:09:45 pm by shponglefan »

Locke141

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2017, 08:45:50 pm »
Canon, on Star Trek, is paramount.

Is it really though?  I mean, again I can only really use TNG as an example since it's the only show I've bothered to watch end-to-end.  But owing to its lack of over-arching narrative, writers seemed to have no trouble introducing ideas and then eschewing them later.  The egregiously silly "warp speed limit" comes to mind...

Quote
There are over 280 hours of Star Trek out there with very few bad episodes/films.

TNG might have something to say about that...

This is a good point. There are a lot of bad TNG episodes, most of voyager was crap, and even DS9 (the best star trek) had lots of terrible episodes. In fact DS9, which I love and just re-watched last year, took two or three years to find it's groove. The final 3 seasons, and it huge story arks made that show.   

Give Discovery a chance and don't sweet the in-continuities with canon, some one will fix them 20 year later or we will just over look them for ever.
     

BadMouth

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #93 on: January 14, 2018, 09:42:52 am »
CBS all access commercial free is available on Amazon Channels now with a 3 day free trial.
The entire first season of Star Trek Discovery hasn't been released yet though.
I watched up through episode 11. 

It's odd to watch a show released only on a streaming service and have it written for commercial breaks.
I'm hoping this means they will air it on regular broadcast tv after the season is over.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #94 on: January 14, 2018, 12:01:42 pm »
  ... But owing to its lack of over-arching narrative, writers seemed to have no trouble introducing ideas and then eschewing them later...

Indeed. This is one of the things that irritates me the most about Star Trek, and to be fair many other Sci Fi shows (although Star Trek is one of the worst offenders).

One example from TNG is when Captain Picard and a few other crew members are involved in (yet another) “transporter accident” and end up becoming child versions of themselves, but with their adult personalities and memories retained.

Just imagine what a game changer it would be if we had the technology to relive our childhoods, but with the benefit of our adult experiences and memories. It would effectively mean that people could choose to be immortal.

But none of the profound issues raised by this technology were ever really addressed in the episode. It was just used as a cheap disposable plot device. What's even more bizarre is that they found a way to reverse the process, and all the affected crew decided they wanted to become adults again, and thus effectively lose decades of life!

Oh, and this technological breakthrough was never ever mentioned again!!

It constantly baffled me why some people think that Star Trek is an example of good Science Fiction.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #95 on: January 14, 2018, 12:45:56 pm »
Man you really don't understand the theme of Star Trek.  We've evolved beyond our petty need for vanity and our ridiculous fear of death.  (Thus no religion.)   It wasn't explored further because nobody wants to be a kid again or be young again, they want to experience their lives to their natural conclusion. 

Star Trek is about humanism.... if you don't understand humanism, sadly you will never understand the GENRE DEFINING SERIES that is Star Trek TNG. 

As for the episodic nature, that was done purposefully.... this is the 80's/90's we are talking about... if it were episodic it would have meant that missing a few episodes would have made it impossible for new viewers to jump in.

pbj

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2018, 04:57:02 pm »
Yeah, okay, sweet, sweet, pure secular humanism in one hand, 40 more years in the other.   ::)



It's odd to watch a show released only on a streaming service and have it written for commercial breaks.
I'm hoping this means they will air it on regular broadcast tv after the season is over.

Check out Mystery Science Theater on Netflix.  It feels like it was filmed 5 years ago and was clearly meant for broadcast with commercials.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #97 on: January 14, 2018, 09:35:09 pm »
Man you really don't understand the theme of Star Trek.  We've evolved beyond our petty need for vanity and our ridiculous fear of death.  (Thus no religion.)   It wasn't explored further because nobody wants to be a kid again or be young again, they want to experience their lives to their natural conclusion. 

Star Trek is about humanism.... if you don't understand humanism, sadly you will never understand the GENRE DEFINING SERIES that is Star Trek TNG.

You can defend it however you want, but you must admit the "science" fiction/technology aspects in TNG are pretty silly.

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #98 on: January 14, 2018, 10:34:36 pm »
It constantly baffled me why some people think that Star Trek is an example of good Science Fiction.

It's one of those shows that is just too inconsistent, especially when it keeps jumping into sci-fantasy territory.

When it sticks to the "harder" sci-fi elements or focuses more the human aspects, it can be quite good.  But the variability in quality and the way technology seems to exist at times just to serve the plot-of-the-week makes it frustrating to watch at times.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 10:36:23 pm by shponglefan »

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #99 on: January 14, 2018, 11:10:22 pm »
Man you really don't understand the theme of Star Trek.  We've evolved beyond our petty need for vanity and our ridiculous fear of death.  (Thus no religion.)   It wasn't explored further because nobody wants to be a kid again or be young again, they want to experience their lives to their natural conclusion. 

Star Trek is about humanism.... if you don't understand humanism, sadly you will never understand the GENRE DEFINING SERIES that is Star Trek TNG.

You can defend it however you want, but you must admit the "science" fiction/technology aspects in TNG are pretty silly.

No, no they aren't.  NASA consultants were hired by the show to make sure that the technobabble and general concepts at least sounded believable.  Compare it to pretty much every sci-fi show before it or at the time and it was head and shoulders above it.  Also it was "inconsistent"  because unlike stagnant shows today, they had a revolving door of some of the best scifi writers in the world coming in to do shows.  Yeah sometimes there were duds and yeah the first season was fairly terrible, but the show was consistently fantastic otherwise.  They threw the genre on it's side by realizing that nobody really cared about the alien of the week... that aspect of the show was merely filler...they cared about Data's exploration of humanity, and Worf's exploration of what it is to be Klingon.  Character development is the primary focus of the show, which had never really been done before and since every single solitary scifi show worth mentioning follows the same format. 

So again, TNG is about humanism, if you don't like the show then you don't understand humanism and I pity you, because you will never get why good scifi is good or fully appreciate all of these wonderful shows that have been made since based upon the rough layout of TNG.  Farscape, Stargate SG1, Babylon 5 and even more modern shows like the Battlestar remake are all built upon the framework of that GROUNDBREAKING show.  If you disagree sorry, you are just wrong.  The creators of these shows will tell you flat out that I am correct and hell, a good chunk of them literally worked on TNG back in the day. 

Again I don't think you guys are getting that this show came out in 1987....The last scifi show worth mentioning on broadcast tv was Galactica 1980 and if you want to see how big of a leap was made, go back and watch a few episodes of that garbage.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2018, 01:15:19 pm »
The Walking Dead is really a show about the human condition.  But some people like and dislike it because of the zombies.  In fact, I would go so far as to say its popularity is based mostly on the zombies.

Point being that regardless of what the writers tried to achieve or the actors philosophy was in playing their character, people tune in for the stuff they like.  Your point about TNG being the only sci-fi series in 7 years just goes to prove that the reason people tuned in was for their sci-fi fix in a time when it was unique, which made it go down easier.  Even the most rancid water will taste great to someone dying of thirst.  Just because you found something deeper in it doesn't mean it was the reason the show was successful or has a lot of followers.  Keep in mind, the same audiences were in love with Knight Rider around that time...

Personally, I couldn't get into TNG.  I was a fan of the original series and a bit of a hardcore sci-fi fan, but I found the show simply "meh".  If I wanted good sci-fi I read a book, and if I wanted to enjoy the Star Trek universe I watched the original show. 

As someone who doesn't watch the new series and was not a TNG or DS9 fan, I would agree that the science fiction I have seen from all of it has more holes than swiss cheese.  Enjoy the show for the entertainment value, if you want real science fiction, read a book, you will never find it in washed down television shows designed for mass audiences.

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #101 on: January 17, 2018, 12:09:54 pm »
No, no they aren't.  NASA consultants were hired by the show to make sure that the technobabble and general concepts at least sounded believable.

I'm not talking about whether or not it "sounds believable".  Honestly, whether or not a warp engine or transporter system is physically possible, I don't really care.  I can suspend my disbelief for things like that and it's part-and-parcel to watching a show like TNG.

What I'm talking about is the way technology is used in a rather arbitrary fashion in service of the plot.  For example, take an episode like "Cause and Effect".  It's a great episode overall and easily one of TNG's best.  But the entire setup for the episode is silly.  They are put in the collision course of another ship and the very things that would alleviate the situation (maneuvering thrusters and/or shields) are rendered inoperable for no apparent reason.  Yet things like shuttle bay doors and the tractor beam are completely unaffected, because they need something to act as a solution to the dilemma.

It's things like this that are just silly (and lazy writing IMHO), when you start to break them down.  The fact that a lot of episodes have an arbitrary technobabble problem and an equally arbitrary technobabble solution does not make for compelling sci-fi.

Quote
They threw the genre on it's side by realizing that nobody really cared about the alien of the week... that aspect of the show was merely filler...they cared about Data's exploration of humanity, and Worf's exploration of what it is to be Klingon.  Character development is the primary focus of the show, which had never really been done before and since every single solitary scifi show worth mentioning follows the same format.

Character development in the series is pretty weak though.  Arguably only Picard, Data and Worf had any real development to them.  The rest of the cast was largely there to fill in designated roles.  Crusher does Doctor stuff, Geordi does engineer stuff, Troi provides exposition and so on.

Quote
So again, TNG is about humanism, if you don't like the show then you don't understand humanism and I pity you, because you will never get why good scifi is good or fully appreciate all of these wonderful shows that have been made since based upon the rough layout of TNG.

Oh please, don't start with the whole "if you don't understand it" nonsense.  That's just a cop-out for a poor defense of a show which while having its moments, also suffers from a number of obvious flaws.

I suppose you could consider it groundbreaking at the time, but at this point the show has aged poorly.  And there's nothing wrong with that.  I mean, I enjoyed it enough to sit through a rewatch of the entire series.  But in doing so and especially in comparing to contemporary series, the weaknesses of TNG stand out all the more.

Vigo

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #102 on: January 17, 2018, 12:45:05 pm »
What I'm talking about is the way technology is used in a rather arbitrary fashion in service of the plot.  For example, take an episode like "Cause and Effect".  It's a great episode overall and easily one of TNG's best.  But the entire setup for the episode is silly.  They are put in the collision course of another ship and the very things that would alleviate the situation (maneuvering thrusters and/or shields) are rendered inoperable for no apparent reason.  Yet things like shuttle bay doors and the tractor beam are completely unaffected, because they need something to act as a solution to the dilemma.



I'm sorry the thrusters inoperable but the shuttle bay doors working ruined your trek experience.  Just a hint, when Howard is like "Chill dude, its just a TV show." You know it is a Trek conversation has gone too far.  :lol

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #103 on: January 17, 2018, 01:05:12 pm »

I'm sorry the thrusters inoperable but the shuttle bay doors working ruined your trek experience.  Just a hint, when Howard is like "Chill dude, its just a TV show." You know it is a Trek conversation has gone too far.  :lol

Wasn't my point.  I'm simply pointing out that Star Trek's treatment of technology in service of the plot is often silly. And that's fine.  Things can be silly and be entertaining (Doctor Who is built on that premise).  The least we can do is admit that.

(And for anyone accusing me of nitpicking I wasn't the one complaining about holograms leaning on tables. ;))
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 01:07:36 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2018, 02:51:42 pm »
No worries! I'm just messing with you, bro! ;D

shponglefan

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #105 on: January 18, 2018, 12:46:22 pm »
 It's all good. Star trek is srs bsns.  :cheers:

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #106 on: January 18, 2018, 02:55:32 pm »
The other morning I was thinking about the time the Orville had to do a bunch of quick jumps in space around an enemy ship they were fighting.
Then I realized it was a klingon ship and it was actually Star Trek Discovery.   :lol
Pretty bad that I got a comedy and drama mixed up because they're both so Trek.

Speaking of Stargate (since the Discovery has a silly giant one built in), there is a new show called Stargate Origins coming out.
Made for internet streaming without a buyer in mind, so probably going to be fairly low budget.
It could still be a decent show if the writing is good. 



"stream it first" on https://www.stargatecommand.co/home for a $20 one time access fee as far as I can tell.
I haven't seen any news of it being picked up elsewhere.

MGM owns Comet TV (OTA channel) and runs the old series on it. 
There are no other first run shows on that channel, so I can't imagine they'll air it on there.

EDIT: "The show will feature ten 10-minute episodes and be exclusively available to stream on Stargate Command"

I do not have high hopes for a 10 minute show.  :-\

« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 03:22:40 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #107 on: January 18, 2018, 11:19:42 pm »
Yeah, okay, sweet, sweet, pure secular humanism in one hand, 40 more years in the other.   ::)


Twenty-eight (28). The Kurzweil has spoken. Really interesting times loom. Humanism has gotten so.....blah.

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #108 on: February 05, 2018, 09:24:08 pm »
Just catching up with this. It's bad Star Trek, but a great fan fiction Star Trek.

I like some of the darker moments (death scenes) and some of the cussing has been fun. Overall, I'll tune in to see what happens next. :)

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #109 on: February 06, 2018, 03:03:51 pm »
It's a train wreck that I can't look away from at this point.  The Klingon "twist" that everybody saw 20 miles away is not only dumb, but physically impossible, which spits in the face of the Star Trek law that any scifi in the show must at least seem possible.  Sarek continues to be a loving father to his human child, despite the fact that he shunned Spock for decades due to being too human.  Btw, why the hell haven't we seen Spock yet?  This show is only supposed to be set 7 years prior to TOS. 

The mirror universe stuff was a complete waste of time and the latest plot development made at the end of the last episode was beyond dumb and the federation, no matter how desperate, would NEVER do that.  Yeah let's put Asian Hitler in charge of a starship... I can't see anything bad happening from that. 

Also you know where I complained about all the canon breaking due to the introduction of different tech?  Well they've made some really strange decisions in regards to what they kept.  They still have the beyond fake-looking and completely cheesy "food synthesizers" from TOS.  Same orange door, same sound, everything.  If there was any tech on the original enterprise that nobody would have complained about if they updated, it would have been that thing, but they kept it.  Meanwhile the view screen, which is iconic and literally changed the way living rooms and home theaters were designed is removed. 

I mean we all know how this is going to turn out.... they'll eventually go back in time. Since they still insist that this is the prime universe they'll have to since the Klingons never took over the federation.  So I don't understand why they are jerking everyone around with this false drama..... stick to stories of the week because we all know how federation history turns out, especially when this is only 7 years before TOS.  It's going to be very awkward if the show goes beyond 7 seasons.  Enterprise was a sequel, a fact that I hated, but at least they had the good sense to set it a full century before Kirk so they had some wiggle room in regards to the story. 

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #110 on: February 07, 2018, 10:05:19 pm »
lol

Your comments are the best. I'm enjoying seeing some new Star Trek. My dad has watched every series, but he doesn't really get into them. When I told them the time frame of this, he was shocked. He thought for sure it was just some sort of parallel universe. I think that's the key to enjoying this version of Star Trek.

To me, the biggest crime being committed is by CBS. Holding this show hostage on its streaming network.... tsk tsk.

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #111 on: February 08, 2018, 02:38:42 pm »
lol

Your comments are the best. I'm enjoying seeing some new Star Trek.

I do too... that's why I'm excited that The Orville got renewed for a second season... you know, so I can watch some new Star Trek. 

The network isn't a problem....  I don't know of a single person that isn't pirating this show.  Hopefully that'll lead to a quicker cancellation and somebody else can attempt to make a good series that's actually a sequel and not a prequel. 

leapinlew

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #112 on: February 08, 2018, 06:18:55 pm »
Yeah - Orvilles next on my list. Since this is a Orville thread disguised as a Star Trek thread - I'll post my thoughts here.

Howard_Casto

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #113 on: February 12, 2018, 02:53:08 am »
Dear god.  I just watched the finale and it might be the worst season finale in the history of Star Trek.  Remember all of that action they substituted for plot at the beginning of the series?  Where the ---fudgesicle--- was that now?  There was zero suspense and zero conflict.  We've got this bomb that's introduced in the last 5 minutes and a mere minute after it is introduced Berman walks up to Asian Hitler and says "Hey cut that out"  and she's like "ok"  Oh and the female Klingon that's been built up as the main villain throughout the whole show.... Berman hands over the bomb to her and says "Ok now unify the Klingon empire and don't hurt the federation anymore" and again, she's like "ok"  I would chalk this up to Klingon honor, but the Klingons in this bizarre warping of reality don't appear to have any.... attacking a federation that didn't attack them first. 

So the show starts to end on this b.s. speech about Federation ethics, which would be welcomed on a series that actually represented them.  I get the feeling that this was meant to say to the audience "Ok, we ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- up and we know it." but then they get themselves even deeper into hot water by answering a distress call by the Enterprise in the last scene.  Now at this point Kirk isn't there yet, but Spock is.... and Sarek is currently on the Discovery.... how the hell are they going to explain all of this stuff I've been talking about in regards to Sarek's behavior?  Yeah they are boned any way they choose to handle it. 

Now for the "canon they screwed up this week" portion of the post:

1.  The Klingons would never "give" another species a region of Kronos.  The Klingon home world is scared.  If I remember my lore correctly, it was some time before Aliens were even allowed to set foot on the planet. 

2.  Ok now the Klingon ships are starting to look more like Klingon ships from this time period because......reasons?  Yeah they are breaking their own canon now.  Again, I think they are trying to course-correct.  It's amazing they decided to stick to their guns until the final episode though.  This finale feels tacked on, like that they knew this series was a turd from the start so they hobbled along to the end of the story arc and to their suprise they got renewed for a second season so they decided to fix things at the last minute.

3.  So Orions aren't green now, just a pale, mint green?  They even kept them green in those garbage reboot movies!!!  WTF?  How hard is it to go to the makeup store, get some green, and smear it all over some people?  Minus one rage point for putting Ron Howard's brother in there to get high with the portly chick.

4.  So the rest of the bridge crew get medals and they still don't bother to tell us their names.  This is getting silly..... introduce the frikkin cast already.

5.  So it's explained that Volk was a Klingon outcast because he had translucent white skin, as opposed to white.  So that's the lame lamp shade they tried to put on that colossal blunder.  It also conveniently explains away how they used expensive, silicon-based prosthetics in the premiere and then switched to cheap foam latex throughout the rest of the show.  Nice try guys, but you can't fool an old sfx nut like me.   

6.  I've already went on about how the Enterprise showing up is bad, but the look..... let's talk about the look.  You know how every federation ship we've seen thus far has been a stainless-steel looking affair that inexplicably looks like the ships after Star Trek Nemesis despite being a prequel?  Well, much like the Klingon ships, the Enterprise inexplicably looks period correct... except.... it's some strange hybrid of TOS enterprise and the Enterprise shown in the movies.  I'm actually ok with this... it's updated appropriately... but it infuriates me that with those changes they showed that the production team can do a tasteful update of ships for this time period and chose not to.

Strangely enough, I'm optimistic about the next season.  If they can somehow tip-toe around all the top-tier TOS canon they are rapidly approaching with the Enterprise encounter, they might be able to get back to some traditional Star Trek episodes.  The rapid back-pedaling they seem to be doing with this last episode makes me think that this is the new direction they want to take.  Hopefully the Klingons are gone for good as well.... they've ruined them, but that arc is over, so if they have the good sense to pretend none of it ever happened it could be ok. 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 02:58:17 am by Howard_Casto »

pbj

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #114 on: February 12, 2018, 12:02:33 pm »
and the domestication of the dog continued unabated.

menace

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Re: So thus far Star Trek Discovery sucks.
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2018, 07:30:07 am »
I absolutely hated the finale for pretty much every reason Howard said above--its like the writers were put in a room and told not to come out until they wrap it up in 30 mins or less--so they knocked out some crap and went to the bar..if I never see another klingon on this show again it will be too soon..

federation types: "so you want to completely eradicate us?"
Klingons: "yup pretty much, we have no problem with killing millions of your children"
federation: "hmm ok, well we planted a bomb on your planet but in the hopes of peace, here's the detonator.."
Klingons: "um ok thanks I guess (morons)-- see you in a few years to continue wiping you out after we have consolidated..."

ugh--what a piece of crap.
its better to not post and be thought a fool, then to whip out your keyboard and remove all doubt...

  
 

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