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Author Topic: Win10 OK on a MAME cabinet? Using a cabinet arcade CRT, arcade VGA, LEDblinky, +  (Read 1076 times)

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DaddyLongLegs

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Hello! I am finishing up my long project of converting a completely dead and gutted cabinet into a MAME cabinet. Don't worry, I kept the artwork and everything. I bought it with no motherboard inside.

I am using an SSD and am about to install the OS but I am unsure of if I should go Windows 7 or 10. It will have to be a 64bit version because I have 8GB of RAM. Does anyone here have experiences using Windows 10 with the ArcadeVGA (using a real arcade CRT; not a CRT TV or computer CRT)? I am also using the Ultimarc Ultimate i/o for my pushbuttons. I just bought the LEDBlinky software for my LED pushbuttons and the premium version of LaunchBox.

Does anyone know if there might be any issues? Especially with the crazy low resolutions? I especially don't want Windows 10 to minimize my game to tell me to update! I know you can turn that off (in a very convoluted way) but you STILL get a popup saying something about "getting an admin to install updates". I do not want that pop-up, or any pop-up for that matter, minimizing a game session. I do not want to disconnect it from the internet because I will need to update the ROMset every time a new MAME version comes out.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated! :)

Grasshopper

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You haven't said what motherboard you'll be using. This is important because, with Windows drivers, you generally get the best results by matching the version of Windows with the age of the PC you're using i.e. if your motherboard is from the Windows 7 era then use Windows 7, if it's from the Windows 10 era then use Windows 10, etc.

IMHO Windows 10 is an appalling OS out of the box. The forced updates, and the general lack of respect for privacy is particularly obnoxious. However, the OS can be tamed with a few tweaks.

Personally, I would never use Windows 10 in a cab. But if it was unavoidable, then as a bare minimum, I would definitely switch off all updates. This can be done fairly easily without having to install additional software. For example, you could just disable the updates services, or you could block access to Microsoft's servers using the built in Firewall.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

DaddyLongLegs

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You haven't said what motherboard you'll be using. This is important because, with Windows drivers, you generally get the best results by matching the version of Windows with the age of the PC you're using i.e. if your motherboard is from the Windows 7 era then use Windows 7, if it's from the Windows 10 era then use Windows 10, etc.

IMHO Windows 10 is an appalling OS out of the box. The forced updates, and the general lack of respect for privacy is particularly obnoxious. However, the OS can be tamed with a few tweaks.

Personally, I would never use Windows 10 in a cab. But if it was unavoidable, then as a bare minimum, I would definitely switch off all updates. This can be done fairly easily without having to install additional software. For example, you could just disable the updates services, or you could block access to Microsoft's servers using the built in Firewall.

I agree. Windows 10 kinda stinks. Especially the start menu. However, I would install ClassicShell so it went back to being good like it was on 7.

As for the update blocking, I did that on my laptop but I still get an annoying popup telling me to manually update or contact an admin or something like that. Is there any way to turn that off?

The motherboard is from whenever AMD Brisbane CPUs were released.  (sidenote; can this be why I sometimes get stuttery/hiccuping audio in Killer Instinct and crackly audio in UMK3? Or is that there no matter what the PC?)

The major reasons I wanted to use Windows 10 was because it boots insanely fast compared to 7 (which is pretty important in a MAME cabinet) and because I am sure at some point in my life, even if it's 15 years from now, I will have to upgrade to 10 and I would rather have this thing set up perfectly for life :)
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 08:42:03 am by DaddyLongLegs »

gumby510

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I built two machines on win 7 with ultimarc video cards. The first one went flawless. The second machine the driver would not install and said it was unsigned. I went back and forth with Andy over this. The card will work but the switch res will not. Had to install some work around. With all that said I'd use win 7. Let us know how it turns out.


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Alaska

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I built two machines on win 7 with ultimarc video cards. The first one went flawless. The second machine the driver would not install and said it was unsigned. I went back and forth with Andy over this. The card will work but the switch res will not. Had to install some work around. With all that said I'd use win 7. Let us know how it turns out.


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I used an Arcade VGA with my Win 7 build and had a heck of a time with setting up ddraw, switchres, etc. with my frontend Hyperspin. I ended up downgrading to Windows 98 and it works flawlessly and looks fantastic. Although I can't speak for Win 10, I can say that there was a bit of excessive troubleshooting trying to get everything to work properly. What frontend do you plan on using?

DaddyLongLegs

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Wow Win98? Games like Killer Instinct actually work??

I bought LaunchBox and that is what I am going to use for the front end :)

Alaska

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Apologies - XP

I have not used that front end, but was curious as a lot of forum users were directing me to go with GroovyMAME.

DaddyLongLegs

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Apologies - XP

I have not used that front end, but was curious as a lot of forum users were directing me to go with GroovyMAME.

AFAIK groovymame is not a front end, it is a replacement of mame.exe that is better for people using CRTs. Supposedly helps with a lot of audio crackling and stuttering issues, too.

Alaska

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Apologies - XP

I have not used that front end, but was curious as a lot of forum users were directing me to go with GroovyMAME.

AFAIK groovymame is not a front end, it is a replacement of mame.exe that is better for people using CRTs. Supposedly helps with a lot of audio crackling and stuttering issues, too.

Right-o. The advice was to go with GroovyMame and a different graphics card to remedy the issues with the ArcadeVGA - ddraw, etc., and utilize the GroovyMame software to send a 15hz signal to the arcade monitor.

DaddyLongLegs

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Apologies - XP

I have not used that front end, but was curious as a lot of forum users were directing me to go with GroovyMAME.

AFAIK groovymame is not a front end, it is a replacement of mame.exe that is better for people using CRTs. Supposedly helps with a lot of audio crackling and stuttering issues, too.

Right-o. The advice was to go with GroovyMame and a different graphics card to remedy the issues with the ArcadeVGA - ddraw, etc., and utilize the GroovyMame software to send a 15hz signal to the arcade monitor.

I never had an issue with my ArcadeVGA but is it OK to use it with GroovyMAME?

ark_ader

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There is nothing wrong with windows 10.  All the troubles we have been finding with clients is user error.  A poor workman complains about his tools.

If it is a driver issue, and it works on windows 7, then install using windows 7 drivers.  What?  Yep, its that simple.

You will find those who bad mouth windows 10.  Just ignore them.  They are clueless.

PM me if you get stuck.   :cheers:
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

AndyWarne

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About the "unsigned drivers" issue mentioned above:

The ArcadeVGA drivers are signed SHA256 which is a requirement for Windows 10.  This causes issues on early Windows 7 installations which have not had updates applied. Microsoft mandated SHA256 signing from mid-2015 and released an update to Windows 7 for this. So if this update has not been applied the drivers come up "unsigned" in Windows 7.

pinlink

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I just ordered a new PC for a cab that is running windows 10. Should I have this changed to run windows 7? This is the one I ordered:

Dell Desktop Computer PC Core 2 Duo 3.0Ghz 8GB RAM Large 1TB Windows 10 64 WIFI

DaddyLongLegs

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There is nothing wrong with windows 10.  All the troubles we have been finding with clients is user error.  A poor workman complains about his tools.

If it is a driver issue, and it works on windows 7, then install using windows 7 drivers.  What?  Yep, its that simple.

You will find those who bad mouth windows 10.  Just ignore them.  They are clueless.

PM me if you get stuck.   :cheers:

That is very kind of you! Thank you. The only thing I am worried about are the pop-ups telling me to go to settings to update (this happens even with updates forced off). Is there any way to disable this? It steals focus and will minimize MAME so it is a pretty big deal.


keilmillerjr

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Watch how much windows 10 blows for arcade cabinets here. Idiots.

@daddylonglegs shoot me a pm if you need help.

ark_ader

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Watch how much windows 10 blows for arcade cabinets here. Idiots.

@daddylonglegs shoot me a pm if you need help.

That was funny.  Shows how poor workmen blame their tools and not their work.

There is nothing wrong with windows 10.  All the troubles we have been finding with clients is user error.  A poor workman complains about his tools.

If it is a driver issue, and it works on windows 7, then install using windows 7 drivers.  What?  Yep, its that simple.

You will find those who bad mouth windows 10.  Just ignore them.  They are clueless.

PM me if you get stuck.   :cheers:

That is very kind of you! Thank you. The only thing I am worried about are the pop-ups telling me to go to settings to update (this happens even with updates forced off). Is there any way to disable this? It steals focus and will minimize MAME so it is a pretty big deal.

A couple of quick questions:  is the cabinet or PC wired to the Internet or local network, or wireless?  I have some utilities that strip the privacy issues on Windows 10 that should stop the updates from appearing, but I can PM you with the links.

About the "unsigned drivers" issue mentioned above:

The ArcadeVGA drivers are signed SHA256 which is a requirement for Windows 10.  This causes issues on early Windows 7 installations which have not had updates applied. Microsoft mandated SHA256 signing from mid-2015 and released an update to Windows 7 for this. So if this update has not been applied the drivers come up "unsigned" in Windows 7.

That is not good is it?  It should be a trouble free install.
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

DaddyLongLegs

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Watch how much windows 10 blows for arcade cabinets here. Idiots.

@daddylonglegs shoot me a pm if you need help.

That is nice of you. Thanks!!

Watch how much windows 10 blows for arcade cabinets here. Idiots.

@daddylonglegs shoot me a pm if you need help.

That was funny.  Shows how poor workmen blame their tools and not their work.

There is nothing wrong with windows 10.  All the troubles we have been finding with clients is user error.  A poor workman complains about his tools.

If it is a driver issue, and it works on windows 7, then install using windows 7 drivers.  What?  Yep, its that simple.

You will find those who bad mouth windows 10.  Just ignore them.  They are clueless.

PM me if you get stuck.   :cheers:

That is very kind of you! Thank you. The only thing I am worried about are the pop-ups telling me to go to settings to update (this happens even with updates forced off). Is there any way to disable this? It steals focus and will minimize MAME so it is a pretty big deal.

A couple of quick questions:  is the cabinet or PC wired to the Internet or local network, or wireless?  I have some utilities that strip the privacy issues on Windows 10 that should stop the updates from appearing, but I can PM you with the links.

About the "unsigned drivers" issue mentioned above:

The ArcadeVGA drivers are signed SHA256 which is a requirement for Windows 10.  This causes issues on early Windows 7 installations which have not had updates applied. Microsoft mandated SHA256 signing from mid-2015 and released an update to Windows 7 for this. So if this update has not been applied the drivers come up "unsigned" in Windows 7.

That is not good is it?  It should be a trouble free install.

Yeah it is going to be a PC connected to the internet because from what I am reading every time a new MAME version comes out I have to update my ROMset. Would be really hard/impossible with no internet connection, unfortunately.

eds1275

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Most people use an older version of Mame, not usually the latest release unless it brings forth a new game that we just have to have. Setting up a new version is a pain in the butt if you have custom keys for most games.

keilmillerjr

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Yeah it is going to be a PC connected to the internet because from what I am reading every time a new MAME version comes out I have to update my ROMset. Would be really hard/impossible with no internet connection, unfortunately.

Negative. Use a current version you are happy with and leave it. MAME recently made some huge advancements.

Phreakwars

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Myself, I love Windows 10. But for an arcade cabinet, it's better to use a tamed down OS that is easy to manipulate. I found 7 to be extremely easy to hack and shell. For older hardware, I'd even go with XP, or even in some cases... Windows 98. Depends on what games you are trying to emulate really. But I wouldn't advise using Windows 10. It's an awesome OS, but too bloated for arcade cabinet use.

keilmillerjr

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Myself, I love Windows 10. But for an arcade cabinet, it's better to use a tamed down OS that is easy to manipulate. I found 7 to be extremely easy to hack and shell. For older hardware, I'd even go with XP, or even in some cases... Windows 98. Depends on what games you are trying to emulate really. But I wouldn't advise using Windows 10. It's an awesome OS, but too bloated for arcade cabinet use.

How so? It only took me a few minutes to completely hide my current install of windows 10. Completely. Like pitch black, all you see is the front end and mame. My setup boots and loads front end in 12 seconds. So… why you advise against it?

Phreakwars

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Were you able to change the animated boot logo? Not possible without a legacy BIOS, as far as I know. How about modifying start up and shut down prompts? Microsoft changed this for Windows 8 and 10. It's not absolutely impossible, but many BIOS' in most modern computers now run UEFI which locks the boot up animation, typically to the manufacturer's logo.

paigeoliver

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Were you able to change the animated boot logo? Not possible without a legacy BIOS, as far as I know. How about modifying start up and shut down prompts? Microsoft changed this for Windows 8 and 10. It's not absolutely impossible, but many BIOS' in most modern computers now run UEFI which locks the boot up animation, typically to the manufacturer's logo.

Real arcade games that run on PC hardware and windows make no attempt to hide any boot stuff, not only are the customers never supposed to see that, well, so what if they did. You see the boot sequence of every game you load in mame and never think twice about it. This is only an issue because someone decided to make it an issue.

OS, doesn't matter. Anything even vaguely modern will stomp all over mame. I have a 2001 era computer in my cabinet, and my cabinet is probably better than yours (not being a jerk, I just got in on a few things that are impossible to get now, like a brand new D9200 monitor and optical happ sticks with Wico handles).

Your mame setup should not be connected to the internet and should never be updated. You update once every 20 years when you replace the computer.
Acceptance of Zen philosophy is marred slightly by the nagging thought that if all things are interconnected, then all things must be in some way involved with Pauly Shore.

Phreakwars

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I'm not talking about the boot up screen for the roms, I'm talking about the actual OS, like this one:

! No longer available

ark_ader

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Another alternative is Tiny 7 or Tiny XP.  Both of mine have serials assigned to them which came from home versions. Micro XP is a nonstarter as it lacks any dot net functionality.  Im not a fan of prebuild OS strippers as you do not know if any malware has crept in. If the OS is isolated then nothing to worry about. You can always get a raspberry pi to update mame for you and build a hard drive to install too.  Don't forget to back up!  ;D

I have the Win 10 updates task written down and will action it.


Oh it will be my birthday soon.  All i'm asking this year is two more arms and another head attached.  Thanks in advance.    :cheers:
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

keilmillerjr

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Were you able to change the animated boot logo? Not possible without a legacy BIOS, as far as I know. How about modifying start up and shut down prompts? Microsoft changed this for Windows 8 and 10. It's not absolutely impossible, but many BIOS' in most modern computers now run UEFI which locks the boot up animation, typically to the manufacturer's logo.

Actually watch the video of my setup I posted. It's black. Nothing. Why do I have to repeat myself? As far as the motherboard bios, I am running uefi with skip/fast bios option. Perfect. If I want to see the bios, I can always plug in a LCD. But why would I ever need to get into bios?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 08:25:45 am by keilmillerjr »

barrymossel

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Were you able to change the animated boot logo? Not possible without a legacy BIOS, as far as I know. How about modifying start up and shut down prompts? Microsoft changed this for Windows 8 and 10. It's not absolutely impossible, but many BIOS' in most modern computers now run UEFI which locks the boot up animation, typically to the manufacturer's logo.
Can't most of this be done with a provisioning package?
Bootscreen
Shell, including exit-options

What you mean with animated boot logo I don't know, but far as I know you don't need the bios for the animated Windows boot logo. I guess you mean the manufacturer's boot logo, but that is quite often not animated?

Haze

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Real arcade games that run on PC hardware and windows make no attempt to hide any boot stuff, not only are the customers never supposed to see that, well, so what if they did. You see the boot sequence of every game you load in mame and never think twice about it. This is only an issue because someone decided to make it an issue.

I doubt the Windows license would permit hacking the files to hide it, so they just went with that.

Also it's useful diagnostics information, say you're on a phone to tech support.

"Machine gives a black screen"  you have no idea if it's powered up at all  Could be completely dead.

"Machine shows Windows loading screen but hangs"  you at least know it started to boot, possible HDD corruption issue.

But yeah, this obsession with hiding screens be they boot screens or otherwise is stupid, especially when the 'authentic arcade experience' excuse is used.  I find it especially hilarious when people want to hide the imperfect emulation messages for that reason; the imperfect emulation is going to be more of an issue when it comes to giving an authentic arcade experience than the warnings telling you about it.


ark_ader

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Real arcade games that run on PC hardware and windows make no attempt to hide any boot stuff, not only are the customers never supposed to see that, well, so what if they did. You see the boot sequence of every game you load in mame and never think twice about it. This is only an issue because someone decided to make it an issue.

I doubt the Windows license would permit hacking the files to hide it, so they just went with that.

Also it's useful diagnostics information, say you're on a phone to tech support.

"Machine gives a black screen"  you have no idea if it's powered up at all  Could be completely dead.

"Machine shows Windows loading screen but hangs"  you at least know it started to boot, possible HDD corruption issue.

But yeah, this obsession with hiding screens be they boot screens or otherwise is stupid, especially when the 'authentic arcade experience' excuse is used.  I find it especially hilarious when people want to hide the imperfect emulation messages for that reason; the imperfect emulation is going to be more of an issue when it comes to giving an authentic arcade experience than the warnings telling you about it.

Haze is spot on here.  Nobody gives a crap that your PC is booting when you turn on the power, except you and there is a good chance you are the only one viewing it.  If your OS gets into a cycle boot (mine did last week) you will need to see what is going on, to at least advise the $8 an hour tech at Microsoft.  Good luck to you if you did call them.  Thus you would use XP or  Vista :lol to negate a boot screen for your cab.  Why is beyond me.  You can delay your monitor power on for 60 secs if it is so inappropriate to see any logo.

Just remember to clone your HDD to save time your Windows 10 PC takes a permanent memory dump.  My team does not have the time to investigate why a PC isn't booting.  Usually it is an update that shags it.  Just wipe, replace and reload. 
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

barrymossel

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Mweh, I can imagine why you wouldn't want a Windows logo or whatever to show up when booting. It kinda reminds you too much that you are just playing some games on a normal computer. A Windows computer in a large box with some nice arcade controls. I guess it's part of the "experience" that you don't know (or realize every boot up) that's it's nothing more than that.
Same goes for booting to the Windows desktop and then having the emulation front-end autostart versus launching directly to the front-end using the shell. I would rather do the latter, as I have the choice and I like the the option more that I don't see the total Windows environment.

So, it's not a problem, but if I have the option to boot straight to the front-end or maybe a game, I would do it. And in the hypothetical case that I end up with some bootloop (that doesn't show some error message - removing the boot logo won't likely affect error messages), I will reinstall or fix my installation through some installation disc/usb. Or even better, a clone.

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I use windows 10 without issue. Hyperspin and LED blinky but not arcade CRT or arcade VGA - I do have a CRT monitor though.  If you want the real arcade experience throw the winners dont use drugs image on the windows splash screen and automatically start the front end at startup. Sometimes its nice to have windows there in case you have an issue. Nobody sees it and all the hiding just seems like extra work to make your life harder in the long run. Just my opinion.

keilmillerjr

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I use windows 10 without issue. Hyperspin and LED blinky but not arcade CRT or arcade VGA - I do have a CRT monitor though.  If you want the real arcade experience throw the winners dont use drugs image on the windows splash screen and automatically start the front end at startup. Sometimes its nice to have windows there in case you have an issue. Nobody sees it and all the hiding just seems like extra work to make your life harder in the long run. Just my opinion.

It take me like 5 minutes, squinting at the interlaced vga res of the crt, and with kids pulling on my legs. I don't understand how it is too much extra work or makes life harder. But ok. :cheers:
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 07:18:21 am by keilmillerjr »

nitrogen_widget

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Another alternative is Tiny 7 or Tiny XP.  Both of mine have serials assigned to them which came from home versions. Micro XP is a nonstarter as it lacks any dot net functionality.  Im not a fan of prebuild OS strippers as you do not know if any malware has crept in. If the OS is isolated then nothing to worry about. You can always get a raspberry pi to update mame for you and build a hard drive to install too.  Don't forget to back up!  ;D

I have the Win 10 updates task written down and will action it.


Oh it will be my birthday soon.  All i'm asking this year is two more arms and another head attached.  Thanks in advance.    :cheers:

if i gotta go windows i usually go with Tiny 7 so I can install it to a cheap 16 gb ebay ssd and use a thumbdrive for roms,art, highscores ect.
I don't have any issues with win 10 and gaming, my steambox and main PC has win10 on it and i really don't notice any difference between win 7 and win 10 performance wise.

Haze

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Performance-wise there isn't much between 7 and 10, if anything 10 is a bit lighter.

The main thing you want to make sure of is that you're running 64-bit 7 or 64-bit 10, otherwise you're throwing away a good 20-25% performance (forget about 64-bit XP, it's alpha quality and often slower than 32-bit)

There might come a time when 10 is needed tho, maintaining compatibility with old operating systems while actually making use of the improvements offered in newer ones becomes tricky at a certain point, and if MAME does go the route of making use of the video card to offload additional tasks that might require DirectX12 for the level of functionality required, and thus Windows 10.

ark_ader

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I use windows 10 without issue. Hyperspin and LED blinky but not arcade CRT or arcade VGA - I do have a CRT monitor though.  If you want the real arcade experience throw the winners dont use drugs image on the windows splash screen and automatically start the front end at startup. Sometimes its nice to have windows there in case you have an issue. Nobody sees it and all the hiding just seems like extra work to make your life harder in the long run. Just my opinion.

It take me like 5 minutes, squinting at the interlaced vga res of the crt, and with kids pulling on my legs. I don't understand how it is too much extra work or makes life harder. But ok. :cheers:

What does a racist person illustrated in that image have to do with this thread?

Get rid of it.   :angry:
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

keilmillerjr

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I use windows 10 without issue. Hyperspin and LED blinky but not arcade CRT or arcade VGA - I do have a CRT monitor though.  If you want the real arcade experience throw the winners dont use drugs image on the windows splash screen and automatically start the front end at startup. Sometimes its nice to have windows there in case you have an issue. Nobody sees it and all the hiding just seems like extra work to make your life harder in the long run. Just my opinion.

It take me like 5 minutes, squinting at the interlaced vga res of the crt, and with kids pulling on my legs. I don't understand how it is too much extra work or makes life harder. But ok. :cheers:

What does a racist person illustrated in that image have to do with this thread?

Get rid of it.   :angry:

Tyrone is blind and doesn't know why he hates something, he just does. Not getting rid of it. Can you see the relation between Tyrone and this thread?

  
 

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