Sonic Mania

[Titchgamer]

It was out today, anyone brought it?

I took a punt on it for £15, and I gota say ime enjoying it!
Its basically like the original sonic 2 with added extras. levels mixed up and some new ones added, knuckles is playable, save states etc.

Its pretty good tbh.

They also put in a new move where you can instantly spin off after landing a jump which is pretty cool.

[Paul Olson]

This is the type of stuff I want to see on the switch. Feels like I remember the old game feeling like, but updated. I wasn't a huge sonic fan, but I am having fun playing this. Easily worth the $20.

I would love to see other old games redone just like this, and I would probably buy them all.

[Haze]

It's really good, easily the best Sonic game since Sonic 3 (+Knuckles)

It's basically a reimplementation of the Sonic 3 + Knuckles game engine (has the powerups etc. from that) with levels inspired by the original games (and often using touched up versions of the original assets) but remixed and with many new elements.  There are also brand new zones showing off effects that wouldn't have been possible at all on the 16-bit machines.

Each zone is 2 acts, each act has a boss (unlike older Sonic games where only the final act had a boss) and the bosses are 100% new. 

Basically, if the Sega had any sense this is the type of Sonic game that should have been released on the Saturn, it takes things that little bit past the 16-bit era but retains the look, feel and most importantly the classic gameplay.  It feels fresh because the level designs are changed, but also familiar because of the ways in which they're not.  By the time you get to the 2nd act of Chemical Zone you fully realise the game has just as much new to offer as it does old.

Sega could not have put out a better Sonic game if they'd tried, and after so many years of complete and utter garbage it's really refreshing to see a return to the classic gameplay that actually worked; I really hope it gets a sequel mixing elements from some of the other games and with additional new content.

[Titchgamer]

Totally agree Haze ime loving it!

[gildahl]

I wonder how difficult it would be to hook-up a Switch dock to a cab and CP.

[Titchgamer]

I wonder how difficult it would be to hook-up a Switch dock to a cab and CP.

Why??

[Malenko]

I wonder how difficult it would be to hook-up a Switch dock to a cab and CP.

Why??

Cause SonicMania isnt on steam for $17.99..........................



wait, yeah it is.

[pbj]

I'm waiting for it to hit $5. 

 

[Malenko]

I'm waiting for it to hit $5. 

 

$7.50 for me

[Titchgamer]

Tbf its worth the £15

[pbj]

Yeah, but SEGA constantly puts their collections at 95% off.  I can wait.

[Titchgamer]

Yeah, but SEGA constantly puts their collections at 95% off.  I can wait.

Its not a collection mate, Its a whole new game.
Basically its a fan made game licensed by Sega lol

[pbj]

Titch, god himself can't make me crack open my wallet for retail.

[Titchgamer]

Titch, god himself can't make me crack open my wallet for retail.

Yeah we all know your a cheap skate skin flint PBJ

But yeah pick it up when its cheap

[Howard_Casto]

I'm with pbj.  So far you guys haven't exactly gave it a lot of praise.  You say it's as good as the old genesis Sonic games, but those weren't very good.  So I'll pass for now.  I do hear that the levels are well designed, but that probably doesn't fix the inherently broken game mechanics of a typical Sonic game. 

[pbj]

Only Sonic game I owned was Sonic CD and I didn't like it.  And this from someone that owned all Sega systems when they were new.

I don't think the modern 2D SMB games are much better.  The version on my iPad that I just thump periodically is as complex as the one I paid $60 for on the WiiU.

[opt2not]

I might give this a shot.
I never could get into sonic games, mainly because of the 4:3 aspect for a "high speed" game. I've always thought it needed to be widescreen.

[Titchgamer]

Howard, whats broken about Sonic?
The game is a classic for a good reason!
Its fast paced and beautifully designed. I know you are a Nintendo lover but jeez.

PBJ sonic CD was trash so ile forgive you for that
TBH only the first 3 Sonic games plus Knuckles were any good.
Sonic 3D was ok but just lacked something.
After that things went down hill rapidly!!

[Haze]

I'm with pbj.  So far you guys haven't exactly gave it a lot of praise.  You say it's as good as the old genesis Sonic games, but those weren't very good.  So I'll pass for now.  I do hear that the levels are well designed, but that probably doesn't fix the inherently broken game mechanics of a typical Sonic game.

Ok, let's rephrase.  It's as good as the original Sonic Trilogy and having played thousands of platform games, the original Sonic trilogy are by far my favourite.

If you ask me this is Game of the Year material.

[Malenko]

PBJ sonic CD was trash so ile forgive you for that

SonicCD is my favorite, had it on Sega CD have it again on Steam.

Through the dark, to the light, its super sonic fight gotta keep it gooooooooiinnnnnn

---fudgesicle--- you guys

[Howard_Casto]

Howard, whats broken about Sonic?
The game is a classic for a good reason!
Its fast paced and beautifully designed. I know you are a Nintendo lover but jeez.

The marketing and the level design tell you to go fast, but it's impossible to go full speed without constantly running into stuff due to the poor camera position.  If you go slow, which is the only way to play the game properly, it immediately becomes 100% less fun and is revealed to be what it truly is... a poor man's smb created by marketing people and not genius game developers.  There are more than a few videos on the internet explaining this.  The games just weren't very good and the only people that like them a lot are people that grew up with a genesis and not a snes.  They're ok, but just ok and I've got too many games to play to waste time on it atm. 

I actually like some of the newer 3d games, when they stopped trying to copy Mario and did their own thing.  The ones released on the wii were pretty fun.  I have Sonic and the Sacred Rings and it's goofy, racing game style of play is pretty fun once you get used to it.  Sonic colors is good as well and there are a few more, but I get the names mixed up. 

Sonic fans kind of remind me of Resident Evil fans.... they want a return to form, completely forgetting that the gameplay of the older games was quite terrible. 

[Titchgamer]

I was luck enough to have both a SNES and a Genesis.
Sonic 2 still gets my love over SMB every time.

The game is designed to play fast your quite right, And it does play fast.
Lightening fast reactions and muscle memory are required to make a flawless run but seen as you obviously never gave it that much of a chance you will not of realised this.

Interestingly though mario can be played exactly the same way, admittedly slightly slower than sonic and without the eye warping loops but I still always played with my finger on the run button.

Time bonuses are a thing in mario to

As for resident evil there was nothing wrong with the game play.
The controls needed to be improved and that has been done since.
The real problem with new RE titles is they got lazy and gave in to the "new" gen gamers.
They stopped the puzzles, gave you op guns and to much ammo to fight daft enemies in a more daft story line.

Thats why RE fans want a back to basics approach and with the last game they are certainly heading back in the right direction.

[pbj]

Frankly, I thought the Sonic go kart racing game was better than that generation's version of Mario Kart but it was IMPOSSIBLE to get anyone to play it.

 

[Howard_Casto]

No that's the thing... your reflexes are incapable of dodging stuff in many situations due to poor game design.  Somebody did a calculation and you have like one or two frames to react.  It's actually memorization that allows you to go fast.... meaning you have to play the levels slow several times first. 

Yes you can go fast in Mario... and dodge everything due to the different way the camera works.  If I hit something in Mario it's probably due to my own lack of skill and thus I don't get frustrated... and I can just start running again (assuming I didn't die).   If I hit something in Sonic it's due to the developers putting a rock just off screen or whatever.... so I have to come to a full stop, collect some rings, back up a football field to gain enough speed to go through the loop, ect... and it's quite tedious and frustrating. 

The newer resident evil games are much more fun... 4 5 and 6 are my favorites.  7 is tediously backtracking to get a widget like a frikkin point and click game, then getting stalked by the same three jump scares.  It pretty much sucks. 

pbj:  the sonic racing games are damn impressive.... not as good as Mario Kart 8.... but still. 

[Titchgamer]

Sonic ultimately was more about the path you chose and memory to boot. The bits you had to play slow the game ultimately slowed you (underwater, steep climbs etc) it was always easy to get back up to speed with a spin dash if you wanted to.

The exception to that being Sonic 1 which had some issues one being no spin dash and the second some lob sided game play.
But by Sonic 2 that had all been rectified.

Re 4 was ok, 5 and 6 are something totally different.
Thats where they stopped being survival horror and became another zombie-esq shooting game.
7 had the right ideas but yeah it was ultimately boring due to the lack of enemy variety and re-using the same material repeatedly.

[Titchgamer]

Frankly, I thought the Sonic go kart racing game was better than that generation's version of Mario Kart but it was IMPOSSIBLE to get anyone to play it.

 

I actually agree with Howard here Mario Kart was better IMO but Sonic racing was very good.

Least it give me a karting game to play on my PS that was not totally lame!

[Malenko]

Mario Kart: the Sand bagging simulator

Hands down the rubberiest of rubberband AI ever. Oh you're in first place? Here's a banana the AI behind you will get blue shells, red shells, and lightning bolts until you are no longer in first. I think I've owned them all , except 8 but I can play it on CEMU and while the tracks are great, and the vehicle customization from 7 returns, it falls into the same sandbagging trope. Kinda wish it had a non weapon racing mode, would likely be more fun and far less frustrating.

I liked All Star Racing Transformed better than Mario 7 but the difficulty curve was STEEEEEEEP in the "challenge" mode , and some of the achievements (on steam at least) were kind of stupid, like you and 3 friends come in 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th in a 4 player local game in a 10 player race.


Wanna know why we somewhat jokingly call you a fanboy Howard?   You have us discussing Super Mario and Mario Kart in a thread about Sonic Mania. 

[Titchgamer]

Mario Kart: the Sand bagging simulator

Hands down the rubberiest of rubberband AI ever. Oh you're in first place? Here's a banana the AI behind you will get blue shells, red shells, and lightning bolts until you are no longer in first. I think I've owned them all , except 8 but I can play it on CEMU and while the tracks are great, and the vehicle customization from 7 returns, it falls into the same sandbagging trope. Kinda wish it had a non weapon racing mode, would likely be more fun and far less frustrating.

I liked All Star Racing Transformed better than Mario 7 but the difficulty curve was STEEEEEEEP in the "challenge" mode , and some of the achievements (on steam at least) were kind of stupid, like you and 3 friends come in 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th in a 4 player local game in a 10 player race.


Wanna know why we somewhat jokingly call you a fanboy Howard?   You have us discussing Super Mario and Mario Kart in a thread about Sonic Mania. 

Who jokes? Hes totally a nin-fanboy lol

Pretty sure the weapons and AI are programmed that way to give everyone a chance and make the game interesting.

The further back you are the more devastating the weapons you got.

That being said though I dont remember the original being so kind to the losers lol
Though that may just be my memory....

[Haze]

Mario Kart: the Sand bagging simulator

Hands down the rubberiest of rubberband AI ever. Oh you're in first place? Here's a banana the AI behind you will get blue shells, red shells, and lightning bolts until you are no longer in first. I think I've owned them all , except 8 but I can play it on CEMU and while the tracks are great, and the vehicle customization from 7 returns, it falls into the same sandbagging trope. Kinda wish it had a non weapon racing mode, would likely be more fun and far less frustrating.

I liked All Star Racing Transformed better than Mario 7 but the difficulty curve was STEEEEEEEP in the "challenge" mode , and some of the achievements (on steam at least) were kind of stupid, like you and 3 friends come in 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th in a 4 player local game in a 10 player race.


Wanna know why we somewhat jokingly call you a fanboy Howard?   You have us discussing Super Mario and Mario Kart in a thread about Sonic Mania. 

Who jokes? Hes totally a nin-fanboy lol

Pretty sure the weapons and AI are programmed that way to give everyone a chance and make the game interesting.

The further back you are the more devastating the weapons you got.

That being said though I dont remember the original being so kind to the losers lol
Though that may just be my memory....

It's how all the Kart racers are programmed (and a fair few others)

Some of them are done better than others, I've noticed that with a few of the games aimed at kids they're actually almost impossible to play if you try to play them properly, and you're best staying in last place, getting the best powerup and using it right at the end.  Ben 10 Galactic Racing and DreamWorks Super Star Kartz are really bad offenders for that.

A lot of games in other genres also have hidden rank variables that make the games easier the worse you do.

As far as Kart Racers go I actually like the majority of them for the different track designs etc. some of them are very creative; I'd have a hard time saying the Mario games were better than the Sonic games in this case, some are more impressive on a technical level (as much as I like El Chavo Kart the framerate is bloody awful due to it being unreal engine) but you can find pretty much the same level of enjoyment in all of them.

[Malenko]

It's how all the Kart racers are programmed (and a fair few others)

Some of them are done better than others, I've noticed that with a few of the games aimed at kids they're actually almost impossible to play if you try to play them properly, and you're best staying in last place, getting the best powerup and using it right at the end.  Ben 10 Galactic Racing and DreamWorks Super Star Kartz are really bad offenders for that.

A lot of games in other genres also have hidden rank variables that make the games easier the worse you do.

As far as Kart Racers go I actually like the majority of them for the different track designs etc. some of them are very creative; I'd have a hard time saying the Mario games were better than the Sonic games in this case, some are more impressive on a technical level (as much as I like El Chavo Kart the framerate is bloody awful due to it being unreal engine) but you can find pretty much the same level of enjoyment in all of them.

Other mimicking the mechanic doesnt make it any better. You cant even hold a good powerup till later because you'll just eat a lightning bolt and lose it anyway.

This is every game at 150cc or higher:
! No longer available

[Howard_Casto]

I don't know guys.  I do fairly good on all the kart games, especially Mario Kart.  You just have to be exceptionally good at gaining ground so when widget x throws a power up that kills everyone you can just pass all the other people that also got took out.  I even do pretty well with blue shells.  The trick to those is to get in first and then have almost a full lap of distance between yourself and second place.  It's difficult, but it can be done and imho that's what makes the "kids" kart racers fun for old timers like myself. 

[Haze]

I don't know guys.  I do fairly good on all the kart games, especially Mario Kart.  You just have to be exceptionally good at gaining ground so when widget x throws a power up that kills everyone you can just pass all the other people that also got took out.  I even do pretty well with blue shells.  The trick to those is to get in first and then have almost a full lap of distance between yourself and second place.  It's difficult, but it can be done and imho that's what makes the "kids" kart racers fun for old timers like myself.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here, but I've pulled apart the code to quite a lot of them and getting a whole lap ahead *can't* be done unless the game decides it wants to let you (which sometimes they will based on a random chance variable in the code, presumably to make you feel you've done really well from time to time)

Otherwise there's code in there that will literally make sure the computer players are never more than x seconds behind you, and can drive at 900mph stuck to the track if it means ensuring that is the case.  I had fun hacking some of them, placing the player car half way around the track and watching the other players magically close in within a second or two.

In multiplayer modes this is less noticable, and you can end up taking entire lap leads more easily because the rubber banding of the AI gets split between the players, so if one Human player is much worse than the other they will keep the AI held back while the other Human ends up lapping them.  Also in multiplayer modes it tends to avoid putting the artificial 'super speed' on computer cars that are in view, as it would look silly.

The catchup logic is a really significant chunk of the code in a lot of these games tho, likewise deciding which powerups you're awarded.

You could probably write an entire paper on how these games try to balance things while appearing to make them fair, it's a piece of technology in it's own right.

[pbj]

Owned.

 

[B2K24]

Is it true you can't play this offline and the release was delayed so they could insert DRM into it?

[Titchgamer]

On the PC version apparently so.
I play on PS4 though so no issues for me :p

[Malenko]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-08-30-steam-users-review-bomb-sonic-mania-over-unexpected-drm

yeap and its the reason I wont buy the game. Denuvo is ---smurfing--- MALWARE not DRM, refuse to buy/install any game with it, including this one.

[Howard_Casto]

I don't know guys.  I do fairly good on all the kart games, especially Mario Kart.  You just have to be exceptionally good at gaining ground so when widget x throws a power up that kills everyone you can just pass all the other people that also got took out.  I even do pretty well with blue shells.  The trick to those is to get in first and then have almost a full lap of distance between yourself and second place.  It's difficult, but it can be done and imho that's what makes the "kids" kart racers fun for old timers like myself.

Blah Blah Blah.... computer players ...blah blah

Dude.... you don't play kart racers in single player mode.  100% Human players all the time or gtfo.  I have no doubt that the games are rigged to balance out the gameplay, but it CAN be done in most games because I do it...... consistently.  The summer Mario Kart 8 came out I never got below 3rd place online after I got my kart parts adequately upgraded. 

[pbj]

Yeah, no.  Let this one go.

[Haze]

I don't know guys.  I do fairly good on all the kart games, especially Mario Kart.  You just have to be exceptionally good at gaining ground so when widget x throws a power up that kills everyone you can just pass all the other people that also got took out.  I even do pretty well with blue shells.  The trick to those is to get in first and then have almost a full lap of distance between yourself and second place.  It's difficult, but it can be done and imho that's what makes the "kids" kart racers fun for old timers like myself.

Blah Blah Blah.... computer players ...blah blah

Dude.... you don't play kart racers in single player mode.  100% Human players all the time or gtfo.  I have no doubt that the games are rigged to balance out the gameplay, but it CAN be done in most games because I do it...... consistently.  The summer Mario Kart 8 came out I never got below 3rd place online after I got my kart parts adequately upgraded.

Each to their own, I hate online gaming / stuff with lots of players.

Single player, or local multiplayer or GTFO for me.

Obviously as a result of this, most of the things I've studied are based on local play cases, if you're playing all human players of course the logic is different (that's where the focus becomes more on the power-up award system and triggering more track hazards for the leading players than rubber banding)

As I said tho, the logic behind these systems is more or less what ends up defining something as a kart racer in the first place, it's a big part of the code although even for other circuit racers you'll usually find the players infront of you drive more slowly until you've overtaken them, then match your speed.

One game I found that doesn't seem to rubber-band at all is the World of Outlaws game on the PS3, low-budget, but fun, although it does have a silly rule whereby if you cause a crash all the cars get lined back in in place order, regardless of how many times you've lapped them, so if you are doing badly you can exploit that to close the gaps :p

Also, back on the original subject.  Yeah, don't buy Sonic Mania what that DRM, it's absolutely horrible stuff.  So sad, a game that basically came about through modding etc. has that level of vile protection on it.  That DRM is one reason I've stopped buying PC games.  I guess Sega really can't help screwing something up, even when gifted the perfect game, there's some rot at Sega that must run to the core.

[Titchgamer]

Tbf ime sure someone will hack it shortly to remove the DRM so just wait a little longer.

From my understanding of what I have read though Sega had no say in it and are pissed off about it also.