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Author Topic: Do any current games still use PCBs?  (Read 5409 times)

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marioxb

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Do any current games still use PCBs?
« on: August 08, 2017, 09:12:36 pm »
Do any arcade games use individual PCBs (printed circuit boards) anymore or is it all PCs (in this case I'm taking PC to mean Windows personal computers and or Mac/ Linux/ Android whatever multi purpose devices) now? I know that todays PCs are way more powerful than they were in the 80s and 90s, so I guess arcade boards (and non PC-based game consoles) have been rendered obsolite. Do any current games use standard PCBs anymore? Does anyone know when exactly this change occoured, and with which game/ games? I guess it started with arcade games using modifed versions of game consoles (Xbox/ PS2/ GameCube/ Dreamcast), but I'm thinking the Raw Thrills games started the PC as arcade game "brains" trend?

ark_ader

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 10:10:55 pm »
Do any arcade games use individual PCBs (printed circuit boards) anymore or is it all PCs (in this case I'm taking PC to mean Windows personal computers and or Mac/ Linux/ Android whatever multi purpose devices) now? I know that todays PCs are way more powerful than they were in the 80s and 90s, so I guess arcade boards (and non PC-based game consoles) have been rendered obsolite. Do any current games use standard PCBs anymore? Does anyone know when exactly this change occoured, and with which game/ games? I guess it started with arcade games using modifed versions of game consoles (Xbox/ PS2/ GameCube/ Dreamcast), but I'm thinking the Raw Thrills games started the PC as arcade game "brains" trend?

Not sure what you are reffering to.  Arcade boards like JAMMA?.  PC mainboards, or console main boards?  All game mainboards are proprietary.  Are you asking when Sony and Microsoft (after one iteration) started to manufacture x86 mainboards?
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keilmillerjr

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 11:14:06 pm »
Dreamcast runs a modified version of Windows CE. Naomi uses almost same exact hardware as dreamcast, so I assume it uses similar operating system as well.?

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 11:17:45 pm »
He may be referring to a Taito Type arcade machine

opt2not

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 11:49:17 pm »
Dreamcast runs a modified version of Windows CE. Naomi uses almost same exact hardware as dreamcast, so I assume it uses similar operating system as well.?
Nope. On Dreamcast the Windows component is for the memory manager, audio and video cd playback Front End. Since Naomi didn't have these features, or any need of a operating system, it ran straight off the hardware through bios' and disc decryption.

He may be referring to a Taito Type arcade machine
Yeah most 3D games ran off an derivative of console hardware. Namco systems ran off psx CPU's, but each game had slightly different specs catering to their specific performance needs. But these console renditions are not windows based, or PC's by any means.

Taito Type X is indeed a PC running windows. But not all PC architecture for arcade games ran off windows. An early example is the Atari Media GX (Area 51: Site 4 -1998) used PC based hardware but no windows.
But just a year after the Midway Quicksilver II (Hydro Thunder) ran on and embedded Win98 and was tuned to run in an arcade environment -- instant power shutdowns, game restore and restarts, etc.

Midway Quicksilver II was the earliest pc based windows hardware I know of - 1999.
 

marioxb

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 12:02:15 am »
What I'm talking about is, the "brains" of arcade games used to be on these:


But modern games are now on these:

In between we had stuff like Killer Instinct or Area 51, which were a board with a hard drive, and stuff like Chilutu (I don't know how to spell it), and Triforce, which were variations of home consoles and played games on optical discs.

I guess it's just more economical to have games just be software on a standard PC now, rather than a dedicated Jamma or simliar board.

For example, Street Fighter V, Fix it Felix, and Pac-Man Battle Royale run on Windows, pretty sure all of the Raw Thrills racing games do as well. I'm also fairly certain that stuff like Angry Birds Arcade and other phone based games in the arcade run on variations of Android or Ipad.

My question is, do any current games still use a dedicated pcb, no hard drive, CD, DVD, Blu Ray, flash drive; like Donkey Kong or Street Fighter II or any other classic game?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 12:10:31 am by marioxb »

keilmillerjr

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 12:17:49 am »
Dreamcast runs a modified version of Windows CE. Naomi uses almost same exact hardware as dreamcast, so I assume it uses similar operating system as well.?
Nope. On Dreamcast the Windows component is for the memory manager, audio and video cd playback Front End. Since Naomi didn't have these features, or any need of a operating system, it ran straight off the hardware through bios' and disc decryption.

He may be referring to a Taito Type arcade machine
Yeah most 3D games ran off an derivative of console hardware. Namco systems ran off psx CPU's, but each game had slightly different specs catering to their specific performance needs. But these console renditions are not windows based, or PC's by any means.

Taito Type X is indeed a PC running windows. But not all PC architecture for arcade games ran off windows. An early example is the Atari Media GX (Area 51: Site 4 -1998) used PC based hardware but no windows.
But just a year after the Midway Quicksilver II (Hydro Thunder) ran on and embedded Win98 and was tuned to run in an arcade environment -- instant power shutdowns, game restore and restarts, etc.

Midway Quicksilver II was the earliest pc based windows hardware I know of - 1999.
 

No. There are a handful of games that actually ran windows ce on disc for the game including the Tomb Raiders, Worms, Snowcross... Sega didn't include the windows logo on the outside of the console just for something silly.

opt2not

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2017, 12:52:05 am »
Dreamcast runs a modified version of Windows CE. Naomi uses almost same exact hardware as dreamcast, so I assume it uses similar operating system as well.?
Nope. On Dreamcast the Windows component is for the memory manager, audio and video cd playback Front End. Since Naomi didn't have these features, or any need of a operating system, it ran straight off the hardware through bios' and disc decryption.

He may be referring to a Taito Type arcade machine
Yeah most 3D games ran off an derivative of console hardware. Namco systems ran off psx CPU's, but each game had slightly different specs catering to their specific performance needs. But these console renditions are not windows based, or PC's by any means.

Taito Type X is indeed a PC running windows. But not all PC architecture for arcade games ran off windows. An early example is the Atari Media GX (Area 51: Site 4 -1998) used PC based hardware but no windows.
But just a year after the Midway Quicksilver II (Hydro Thunder) ran on and embedded Win98 and was tuned to run in an arcade environment -- instant power shutdowns, game restore and restarts, etc.

Midway Quicksilver II was the earliest pc based windows hardware I know of - 1999.
 

No. There are a handful of games that actually ran windows ce on disc for the game including the Tomb Raiders, Worms, Snowcross... Sega didn't include the windows logo on the outside of the console just for something silly.
I'm willing to bet it's only running windows drivers because those games were windows ports. But regardless, that's beside the main point. Naomi hardware, the original version of the DC did not run Windows.

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2017, 02:42:26 am »
What I'm talking about is, the "brains" of arcade games used to be on these:


But modern games are now on these:

In between we had stuff like Killer Instinct or Area 51, which were a board with a hard drive, and stuff like Chilutu (I don't know how to spell it), and Triforce, which were variations of home consoles and played games on optical discs.

I guess it's just more economical to have games just be software on a standard PC now, rather than a dedicated Jamma or simliar board.

For example, Street Fighter V, Fix it Felix, and Pac-Man Battle Royale run on Windows, pretty sure all of the Raw Thrills racing games do as well. I'm also fairly certain that stuff like Angry Birds Arcade and other phone based games in the arcade run on variations of Android or Ipad.

My question is, do any current games still use a dedicated pcb, no hard drive, CD, DVD, Blu Ray, flash drive; like Donkey Kong or Street Fighter II or any other classic game?

Yes and no.

Most classic games in the arcade of today like gameworks are x-in1 which is a Linux mainboard running mame, unfortunately.  If it is an original machine - maybe.  Maybe not.  Nearly all the classic games in my local barcade  are PC mame cabs.  I should shop them, but it is the only good hang out in town for fat chicks.  So maybe i will live and let live.
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Titchgamer

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2017, 04:38:58 am »
What I'm talking about is, the "brains" of arcade games used to be on these:


But modern games are now on these:

In between we had stuff like Killer Instinct or Area 51, which were a board with a hard drive, and stuff like Chilutu (I don't know how to spell it), and Triforce, which were variations of home consoles and played games on optical discs.

I guess it's just more economical to have games just be software on a standard PC now, rather than a dedicated Jamma or simliar board.

For example, Street Fighter V, Fix it Felix, and Pac-Man Battle Royale run on Windows, pretty sure all of the Raw Thrills racing games do as well. I'm also fairly certain that stuff like Angry Birds Arcade and other phone based games in the arcade run on variations of Android or Ipad.

My question is, do any current games still use a dedicated pcb, no hard drive, CD, DVD, Blu Ray, flash drive; like Donkey Kong or Street Fighter II or any other classic game?

Yes and no.

Most classic games in the arcade of today like gameworks are x-in1 which is a Linux mainboard running mame, unfortunately.  If it is an original machine - maybe.  Maybe not.  Nearly all the classic games in my local barcade  are PC mame cabs.  I should shop them, but it is the only good hang out in town for fat chicks.  So maybe i will live and let live.

Bout time you started enjoying life

As for the OP:

To play devils advocate it depends what you call a PC really.

Pretty much all games run on PC hardware of one form or another.

They all have RAM, CPU, GPU etc.

The only real difference is the software it runs and the storage medium used to keep the game on.

If you class a PC as running off a hard drive I think probably most games from the late 90's, If you mean running a OS well thats a whole different kettle of fish lol

marioxb

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2017, 10:08:06 am »
I mean I was looking at the manual for Crus'n Blast online. It was talking about, "Make sure the PC is always switched on
", "..plug in a keyboard..", "..reinstall the image from the included flash drive." Terms like this didn't exist in 1982's arcade when Donkey Kong was released.

I'm curious as to, when did games start EXCLUSIVELY having Windows or another OS as the "thing" that runs the software on the cabinet? I mean Killer Instinct still ran on a "naked" pcb with burned eeproms and whatnot and no OS, but had a hard drive attached.

Are there currently any BRAND NEW (as in any game released for the first time in the 2000s, not counting re releases or any MAME-type stuff) games that still use a printed circuit board with burned eeproms that play the intended game, with no OS whatsoever?

Also, what was the last game that used a game console variant, such as GameCube/ Triforce. If not, what was the last game that didn't use a form of Windows/ MAC OS/ Linux/ Android. An example is the arcade Mario Kart games. The first two ran on Triforce, whereas the third one runs on Windows.

Even "simple" games, like the Disneyland/ World Fix it Felix run on Windows. Is it just not profitable to burn an eeproms for one single game anymore?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:15:04 am by marioxb »

JDFan

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2017, 10:23:18 am »
Quote
Is it just not profitable to burn eeproms anymore?

I think it is more that the programming has moved from machine level coding to higher level programming languages because they allow things to be done much quicker/easier without having to worry if your program can fit into 32 or 64Kb of memory space. Instead the higher level languages allow much simpler cut/paste reuse of code without the need to understand what is going on at the lower levels making development easier.

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2017, 10:28:59 am »
Nearly all the classic games in my local barcade  are PC mame cabs.  I should shop them, but it is the only good hang out in town for fat chicks.  So maybe i will live and let live.

---fudgesicle--- that, turn them in.


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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2017, 01:35:51 pm »
     Computers get faster before the board is even built, it would only make sense to use the most power at the time of production, Enduro racer for example is like 3 huge pcb"s a production nightmare one might assume (and really sucks to work on).... :hissy AND FAT CHICKS RULE!!! :hissy.... It"s like arcade cheesecake.

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 01:37:09 pm »
A PC motherboard is a PCB..

just because they're found in our computers doesn't make them any less of a PCB..

Many older boards used the same components as found in PCs even if they weren't 100% the same, many also ran things like Linux based operating systems, even on non x86 hardware.

don't know why people have such a hard time with this and see them as completely different things, it's just become more cost-effective to use an off-the-shelf PCB rather than a custom designed one.

There are still CPUs, ROMs, Hard Discs....



« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 01:39:22 pm by Haze »

jennifer

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2017, 01:51:21 pm »
                                           **EDIT**
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 01:58:36 pm by jennifer »

opt2not

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2017, 02:41:52 pm »
Are there currently any BRAND NEW (as in any game released for the first time in the 2000s, not counting re releases or any MAME-type stuff) games that still use a printed circuit board with burned eeproms that play the intended game, with no OS whatsoever?
Perhaps Skycurser is using their own board. Not sure...
https://www.griffinaerotech.com/skycurser/

But generally, no. All newer games are built using basically a windows machine for the reasons JDFan mentioned. Higher level programming.

opt2not

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2017, 04:44:15 pm »
Btw, check out System 16, it has a list of every arcade hardware with information added.

So far it lists the following as being "PC Based":
  • Atari Media GX
  • CAVE PC
  • Konami PC Based
  • Midway Graphite
  • Midway Quicksilver II
  • Namco N2 Hardware
  • Namco N2 Satellite Terminal Hardware
  • Sega Lindbergh
  • Sega Nu
  • Sega Ringedge
  • Sega Ringwide
  • Taito Type X
  • Taito Type X+
  • Taito Wolf System

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2017, 04:48:02 pm »
A PC motherboard is a PCB..

just because they're found in our computers doesn't make them any less of a PCB..

Many older boards used the same components as found in PCs even if they weren't 100% the same, many also ran things like Linux based operating systems, even on non x86 hardware.

don't know why people have such a hard time with this and see them as completely different things, it's just become more cost-effective to use an off-the-shelf PCB rather than a custom designed one.

There are still CPUs, ROMs, Hard Discs....

When was the last time you went outside and took some time off, like a holiday from your computer?



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marioxb

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2017, 06:06:49 pm »
Thanks. Now you guys are finally understanding what I'm talking about. I was just curious and thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

I wonder if today's arcade game devolopers took some inspiration from MAME. "Well, you know, these hacker types did a pretty good job getting all those old games running on Windows. Why should we go to all the trouble of designing/ burning boards when we can just throw a PC in there?" And I wonder if MAME never existed, would the manufacturers still go in that same direction?

Another thing, has having these games have Windows OS's make them easier or more difficult to emulate? I suppose they aren't so much as emulated anymore as they are just the same game running on a home machine...  I haven't been "in the scene" for a while now. If they do PC versions of the newer arcade games, are they more or less the same?

ark_ader

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2017, 06:52:32 pm »
Thanks. Now you guys are finally understanding what I'm talking about. I was just curious and thought it would make for an interesting discussion.

I wonder if today's arcade game developers took some inspiration from MAME. "Well, you know, these hacker types did a pretty good job getting all those old games running on Windows. Why should we go to all the trouble of designing/ burning boards when we can just throw a PC in there?" And I wonder if MAME never existed, would the manufacturers still go in that same direction?

Another thing, has having these games have Windows OS's make them easier or more difficult to emulate? I suppose they aren't so much as emulated anymore as they are just the same game running on a home machine...  I haven't been "in the scene" for a while now. If they do PC versions of the newer arcade games, are they more or less the same?

There were PC emulators way before MAME.  We had Sparcade by Dave Spicer, who in my opinion did all the heavy lifting in the Mame project, when the rest of your "hackers" just made speed hacks to get the game to be played on older PC hardware, like Final Burn.  The real father of the multi arcade is Dave Foley, who coded arcade emulators way before Mame.  Probably why he tried to obtain the MAME trademark, as it as was in theory correct, and why he tried to protect his business which was ethical at the time, when others were not.  Dave made some bad life choices that went in a tragic downward trajectory.  Still we cannot diminish or ignore his contribution to emulating arcade games. 

I should get some interesting flames for typing this, especially the ebay tards   rejects who got zapped by Dave back in the day.

Today MAME developers are more obsessed in emulating particular games so they can source (and obtain the ROMs) for more rare games from a certain country.  Mahjong anyone?  Personally speaking, the project is in its closing stages as all the hard work has already been done and the existing crew are just "maintainers".  There are only a few coders capable (again in my opinion) and are worth their salt.  To be honest who cares, especially Nintendo, Namco, Atari and Disney as they clearly don't.  Shifting to assimilate other coders console emulator work seems to be more important direction for MAME at the moment IMO as it is easier.

There have been examples where MAME has saved existing software projects, but they are few and far between, and I am sure the Chinese just love all their hard work, so they can profit from it in the form of x-in 1 boards.  Its not all doom and gloom, as the said arcade companies have made money on arcade nostalgia and probably this is what keeps MAME from the brink of legal nirvana.  It is all very interesting stuff.  Similar to Napster in most respects.

Are you writing a paper on how the arcade industry died and its aftermath?
https://ddd.uab.cat/pub/tradumatica/15787559n5/15787559n5a1.pdf

Dave's Site: https://web.archive.org/web/20010122030800/http://www.sparcade.freeserve.co.uk:80/misc.htm
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 07:22:41 pm by ark_ader »
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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2017, 07:51:21 pm »
   Its about time you guys admitted to the timeline of this MAME hoax, I was sold on the preservation way before anyone will admit, back when the games were made (20 years my foot).... Today this bastrdized concept of corrupt source code is not only freeware, but certain aspects of it are not even allowed to be discussed here in this forum....What does that tell you? You wasted your life friend.

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2017, 08:06:45 pm »
I wonder if today's arcade game devolopers took some inspiration from MAME. "Well, you know, these hacker types did a pretty good job getting all those old games running on Windows. Why should we go to all the trouble of designing/ burning boards when we can just throw a PC in there?" And I wonder if MAME never existed, would the manufacturers still go in that same direction?
I doubt they took inspiration from MAME hackers (that would be kind of an insult to today's game developers).

Also, there isn't much of difference in today's game developers for Arcade or Console/PC. A lot of these newer arcade titles started their life on PC and Console. New games that have Arcade versions, for instance Street Fighter 4 are built on Windows platforms from the get-go. So they nativity run on that architecture without the need to engineer some custom propriety architecture. C++, Unreal, Unity, etc... these are all on a Windows codebase, so it makes sense to keep it on the same hardware. You even see iOS games in the arcade these days, like Fruit Ninja or Plants vs. Zombies for instance.
PC based hardware is cheap and readily available, it's what you develop games on in our current age. It wouldn't make sense in terms of finance or effort to build a proprietary platform now-a-days.

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2017, 08:35:43 pm »
I wonder if today's arcade game devolopers took some inspiration from MAME. "Well, you know, these hacker types did a pretty good job getting all those old games running on Windows. Why should we go to all the trouble of designing/ burning boards when we can just throw a PC in there?" And I wonder if MAME never existed, would the manufacturers still go in that same direction?

I doubt they took inspiration from MAME hackers (that would be kind of an insult to today's game developers).


Whoa there sport.  The Mame Devs were exactly this, even strategically placed where copyright infringement laws were still a dark grey area.  Hacking encrypted ROMs is a legal activity?  Why do you think they were encrypted in the first place?  To prevent outright theft?  This is old news and nobody cares really, but I do have a good question to you armchair Mame devs out there.  If the project is about preservation of arcade games, why keep changing the ROM data?  When ROM data is the part of the preservation? 

Changing ROMs to suit poor coding skills is not how preservation works.  How many original ROM sets out in the wild is still original without any modification?  Why keep changing the ROM after every revision, when it is the host emulation software that should be changing and the original ROM kept intact?  What is being preserved?  What I didn't know was that Dave Foley was a Mame contributor too of sorts.  Funny old world eh?

I'm rubbing the magic lamp...waiting for Haze to give us a decent and honest answer.
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lilshawn

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2017, 08:49:39 pm »
back in the 80's it was still worth it for companies to roll their own boards. there was a huge spread between arcade and  home console/computer capabilities. arcade had a huge performance/quality edge over anything out there.

in the 90's the spread narrowed and companies started repurposing home console chips/boards for arcade systems.

Atomis (sega saturn), chihiro (xbox), triforce (gamecube) so on) the spread between arcade and home console systems was at par or better and, hell... the chips were already made. why spend millions in R&D when an already existing chip would do exactly what they wanted

in the 2000's home computer technology exploded and literally could not be beat. using off the shelf components they could build a system and put their effort into coding games instead of hardware. need more video processing power... plop a 750ti in there... easy peasy
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 08:51:33 pm by lilshawn »

Haze

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2017, 10:27:10 pm »
yeah, it's a cost thing, nothing more, and as others have noted, it's really nothing new, home hardware has been used in arcades all the time.

back in the day it was possible to get the better over another manufacturer by doing things your own way, using your own hardware, throwing as much of it in there as you could.

these days it's not cost effective to do that; you're probably developing on a PC and want to be able to port what you've created to other platforms as easily as possible in most cases (large full-scale attractions excluded) also working with standard platforms means there's a good pool of developers to hire from too, rather than having to train them all to work with custom cases.

as I already said, it's not really surprising, even before the boards simply became PC boards you were seeing off-the-shelf PC cards used, look at the Golden Tee Fore! hardware, it might not be x86 based, but it's still quite PC-like in many senses, and even earlier the likes of Taito were experimenting using a standard PC motherboard but coupled with custom cards containing all the game roms and video+sound hardware (Psychic Force 2012)  The x86 processors were a huge leap from what you traditionally saw used on arcade boards, which is also why there's a leap in the emulation requirements if you want to do it all properly.

it's not just arcades either, look at the current gen Sony / Microsoft platforms, they're borrowing heavily from the PC side of things (but are different enough that you can't just hack the code to run.

it wouldn't surprise me if we see some of the smaller manufacturers switching over to lower-cost boards like the R-Pi once there are ones on the market that meet their graphical needs, or can be paired with a PC video card; I'm a little surprised we're not seeing this for non-video redemption machines already but it's possible the devices available don't offer the number of IO ports that would be needed without further expansion either.

but I'll reiterate my original point, it's still a PCB, just one you're more familiar with.  ultimately if we're doing proper emulation, it still needs emulating as a PCB, not simply hacking the code to run on Windows.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:29:15 pm by Haze »

paigeoliver

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Re: Do any current games still use PCBs?
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 05:45:50 pm »
Dynamo's Solitaire titles were running on stock 386 based pc hardware in the early 1990s, although they did boot from an ISA rom card instead of a hard drive.
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