Please Need Some Help - GroovyMAME+ATI 4980+Windows+...

[krazyscotsman]

Hello Everyone. I'm trying to get my arcade cabinet running again. First I'll share my system details: Intel i5 3.10Ghz, 8GB RAM, Nvidia 650 TI (replacing this with the ATI 4980 to use 15Hz mode), arcade monitor WG (Don't know model purchased from X-Arcade years ago 800x600 max resolution at 60Hz). I'm having all kinds of problems getting a configuration working that does what I would like it to do. First I'll start with what I did. I tried completing rebuilding and upgrading OS and configurations to RL and Hyperspin. I had the old hard coded launcher running years ago with Windows XP 32 bit and just a standard build MAME. When I started building the new system and configuration, I wanted to go with Windows 7 64 bit as I wanted to run a lot of modern PC fighting games and Demul on it and needed DX10/DX11. I configured everything outside of the cabinet and had everything launching and running perfectly on a standard Samsung LCD. When I put the computer back in the arcade and powered up, the monitor wouldn't display anything other than some wavy colored lines. NO matter what I tried it would do anything other than display wavy colored lines. I did a ton of research and found out this was somewhat a known problem and caused by the Windows initial video driver resolution set to high. I could get it to work in a way by plugin the system into an old CRT monitor I had stored, get in the Windows 7 desktop, and then unplug the old CRT and plug into the arcade monitor; but this isn't a solution. I never found a work around. So I started a new OS build having saved off all of my configurations and files on a home server.

While doing the research I found GroovyMAME and the 15Hz information that I never knew about before. I assumed MAME ran all the roms correctly but I did notice that something was off the last time I played MS PACMAN compared to an actual arcade game of MS PACMAN - timing or something? So what I would like to do is to use 15Hz so I can play all the classics in the correct aspect ratio, resolution, and refresh. I bought an ATI 4980 to replace the Nvidia 650 TI as Calamity's drivers only support up to 4980 from what I read. I would also like to play all the supported DEMUL games as many aren't playable in MAME yet. The problem is I can get my monitor to correctly load Windows XP 64bit and display it correctly but I'm limited to DX9. DEMUL runs DX10 or DX11. To get DX10/11 requires going to Vista. I don't know if my monitor will handle Vista. Of course, I can always try to install Vista and test whether the screen is displayed correctly - my guess is it will not but I don't know. I know that Calamity drivers work in Windows XP 64. Will the drivers work in Vista? Will I have any issues installing the Calamity drivers in Vista and still configuring on an LCD until I'm ready to put the system back in the cabinet? I guess my concern is I feel like I'm going to have to make a decision, give up basically all of DEMUL games and stay in XP 64 to get my arcade monitor to work with Calamity Drivers. Any thoughts about what I options I have at this time? Guess the big one is does Calamity Drivers work in Vista? I can always install Vista and then dump it if it won't work with my monitor.

Lastly, is there a suggested way to get everything working - meaning when to install the calamity drivers, any changes I have to do to the MAME install such as changing the .ini file or other files, is there something I need to do to setup so MAME actually runs the games at the original settings and not the scaled 640x480 resolution my ini is currently set too? I know this is a ton of questions. I'm just beaten down by this rebuild. I spent years literally between down time at work trying to get my arcade back up and running on Windows 7.

Thanks for all of your help and for the community. I love having a cabinet but this has really beat me down to get It back up.

Dave

[krazyscotsman]

Well - I went ahead and tried to install Vista 64 bit. It actually worked with my monitor. So, I'm moving forward with installing all the patches, etc. I'm really hoping I can get the CRT_Emu drivers working under Vista.

[Jonny G]

So why Vista and not 7? (I might have missed something  )

[krazyscotsman]

I wish I could say. I tried many different settings in Windows 7. Tried QRes, tried setting the configuration manually (640x480 and 800x600). None of it worked. Not sure what's different. Maybe simply as luck. But Vista booted right up. Windows 7 never did. What I read online was there was something about Windows 7 switching resolution on boot to 1280x720 and that messed up the arcade monitor from going into a different resolution later. Is that correct? I don't know. But I do know I searched and found others with the exact same issues under Windows 7 that I had with their arcade monitors and they were going back to Windows XP over it. Wish I knew. I would much rather run Windows 7.

[Jonny G]

I think I'm right I'm saying the only issue with Win7 is that yeah, the bootscreen is of a higher res than XP's and so CRT's aren't able to display it although something tells me there's a way to get it to revert back to the lo-res version. Either way, with all the tools available, It's definitely possible to run GM under Win 7 on a CRT, many are doing just that, including me.

It is worth nothing that ATI 4xxx card's aren't recommended for Win7, my 5454 does the job no problem under Win7 although I think much newer cards are now supported thanks to a CRT Emudriver update. 4xxx should still work though.

Have you followed this tutorial?
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=298

That's how I got my cab set up.

[krazyscotsman]

Jonny G - Thanks for the link. I'll take a look at it. I didn't know that newer cards are supported. I'll see about finding a list. What I may do is try on a different hard drive an install of Windows 7 again. I tried many different options to get Windows 7 to work before I finally gave up as it seemed like a losing battle. Thank you for the link on installing the drivers. I will follow that when I get to the point. I would love to use windows 7 as it's definitely the better option. I will report what I find out. Is there a link to what the top ATI / AMD card I can use? Ideally, I want to have a DX11/12 option in cards. I know the 4980 is a DX10 card only. I will only be gaming at a max resolution of 800x600 on my arcade so I don't think I need AMD's newest card to get fully 60 fps max settings on games such as Mortal Komat X, Street Fighter V, etc.

Thanks again for the tutorial link!

[snappleman]

I've used an HD4550, 5450 and 6450 for this, and I've had increasingly better results with each going up that list, so I recommend Win7+6450 for good stable results. Definitely read through the link Jonny G posted, if you follow Calamity's guides you should be totally set.

As far as how I do things with the 6450, it's really simple:

- plug a pc monitor into the displayport or HDMI for setup or use a second video card in the same machine
- install the crt_emudriver
- open vmmaker and set the correct edid emulation (on the correct display, meaning not the one I'm currently using)
- go to the mame tab and check export monitor settings to groovy mame, get video modes from mame xml and generate xml from mame exe.
- then generate modes/install modes
- unplug from the HDMI and plug my CRT into the VGA/DVI output (my card only has a DVI so I use a VGA->DVI adapter, if the card had a VGA  then I'd just use that)


That's all I need to do in order to get things working right, the process might be totally different for you so don't get discouraged. My CRT still has wavy colored lines as it boots since the driver doesn't kick in until Windows is started, but once it logs in everything works well, and GroovyMame switches resolutions on its own properly without me having to touch the .ini settings.

Another thing to note, until you get your setup working exactly as you like it I recommend you load games from the command prompt with -verbose so you can have logs of anything that goes wrong, that way you can get proper help with it.

[krazyscotsman]

Thanks Snappleman for the reply. I just gave Windows 7 another go. I don't know what it is but my arcade monitor just refuses to play nicely with it. I ran QRes at both 640x480 and 800x600. Neither worked. I'm forced to go with Vista to get anything with DX10 or above working. I Truly have no idea why my CRT monitor refuses to work with Windows 7 but it works great with XP and Vista. I may try one more test with a fresh load of Windows 7 on a laptop just to see if I can anything out of it.

Since I'm going to try to make Vista work with the drivers, would it be worth while to go with a higher end graphics card? Not sure if going above the 4980 will generate much improvements in Vista. Possibly. I'll look on eBay and see what I can find.

Thanks for the help. I truly appreciate it.

[Jonny G]

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295

Link to video card compatibility for you. Have a look around the rest of that site. It might throw up some answers why Win 7 isn't behaving on your monitor.

[krick]

There's lots of us using Windows 7 with GroovyMAME.  It absolutely works.

The first thing is to pick up a newer AMD/ATI card.  A Radeon HD 5xxx or higher is best for Windows 7.  I have a 7750

Then make sure you're using CRT Emudriver 2.0...  http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=295

..and follow these instructions...  http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052#p1052

If it doesn't work, please post some pictures/video of what you're seeing.

[krazyscotsman]

Thanks Krick. I'll do that. What's the most advance ATI/AMD card that can be used? It seems like everyone is using a x000 series card. Can I use an R280/R3xx?

It's not Windows 7 that's the problem. It's Windows 7 and my CRT that's the problem. Not sure why but using Windows 7 and my CRT results in not useable. The desktop never correctly displays. It is just a bunch of lines - See attachments. I can't get anything to display past these lines in Windows 7. However, Windows XP and Windows Vista boot directly into the desktop and displays correctly. So, right now I'm installing Windows Vista 64 bit. I just did a new install on Windows 7 on an old laptop. I'm going to play with the laptop to see if I can possibly get it to display correctly, but I don't have any expectations that it will work. Hopefully, either the Windows XP CRT_Emu drivers or Win 7 drivers will work in Vista.

Dave

[krick]

According to the CRT Emudriver 2.0 page, these are the latest "GCN" desktop GPUs that are supported...

AMD Radeon HD 7700-7900, HD 8500-8900 Series
AMD Radeon R7 200, R7 300, R9 200, R9 300, R9 Nano, R9 Fury Series



Out of curiosity, do you get a picture if you connect it to your PC monitor?  Maybe something didn't install correctly with CRT Emudriver.

Also, did you change the desktop resolution in Windows to 800x600 before installing CRT Emudriver?

I don't know if this page will be useful but it explains how to get into "Low resolution mode" in Windows...
https://www.winhelp.us/low-resolution-video-vga-mode-in-windows.html

[Jonny G]

Just a thought, but have you tried adjusting your monitor's sync controls when using Win 7?

[Jonny G]

Also, are you able to select 640x480 under Win 7? From my own experience with my Hantarex MTC 9000 that's the highest resolution which produces a visible signal.

[krazyscotsman]

Krick - The lines as shown in the photos is from a Win 7 load with a Nvidia 650 TI. I do receive an image and usable connected to a standard LCD or CRT monitor. I have an old 19" CRT that shows everything accurately. According to X-Arcade and my previous experience with the arcade CRT, it supports 800x600 and 640x480. I used QRes to put Windows 7 in 640x480 at 60Hz and 800x600 at 60Hz. Using QRes works on the standard LCD and CRT. What is very strange about the whole thing is, if I boot into Win 7 on the CRT and wait for the desktop to load, I can plug into the arcade CRT and I have an image at both 800x600 and 640x480. When I do this, I can switch resolutions, play games, etc. BUT as soon as I reboot, I receive the unusable images that are listed in the attachments. I can boot directly into Windows XP and Vista connected to the arcade monitor and it displays correctly. The only thing I can figure is my arcade CRT does not recover from the Win 7 boot animation, but there's no reason why it shouldn't.

[krick]

I'm confused.  Why are you using an Nvidia 650?  In order to use GroovyMAME with an arcade monitor, you need to use CRT Emudriver and a compatible ATI/AMD Radeon card.

Regarding your monitor, it probably only suppports 800x600 and 640x480 using interlaced modes.  My monitor just barely supports 800x600 interlaced, but it's touchy and I have to fiddle with the monitor controls to get a stable picture.

Can you get more information about your monitor?  Maybe get some pictures of labels on the chassis?

Regarding being able to boot then swap the cable over and get a picture.  This appears to be a problem with EDID detection.  Windows 7 is trying to detect your monitor to determine which driver and resolution to use but an arcade monitor doesn't provide that EDID info.  Fortunately, when you use CRT Emudriver 2.0 with a Radeon HD 5xxx or higher card, you can enable EDID emulation as discussed in this thread...   http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052

Trust me, everything will go much smoother when you have the right video card.

[krazyscotsman]

Hi Krick - Originally, I wasn't considering or using GroovyMAME. I was running a Windows 7 build with Nvidia 650 TI and just MAME64. I tried this configuration with my CRT and nothing worked - I got the screens I added in the attachment with this build. I began searching for a solution for the arcade CRT and my Win 7 Nvidia configuration when I happen to stumble on this site and groovymame. I decided that since I have to troubleshoot my arcade CRT anyway, I would buy an ATI/AMD graphics card and try to get 15Hz with GroovyMAME working. I've always wanted to try to have my arcade emulation as accurate as possible. So, I decided to work with this build oppose to the standard MAME64.

I actually just purchased an AMD R7 360. This was listed in the compatibility list so, I think I'm good now in terms of GPU.

See attached images on the arcade monitor details. These are the only details I can access really due to the cabinet.

[krick]

I think you'll be very happy once you get the new video card.  The results you get with GroovyMAME are definitely worth the hassle to set it up.

Those monitor pictures are of the tube part, which appears to be made by Philips..  To identify the monitor manufacturer, we'd need pictures of the circuit board and chassis part of the monitor, even if there isn't visible numbers.

The reason I ask is that you can definitely set up GroovyMAME using one of the generic 15KHz settings, but it's nice to know exactly what model your monitor is so you can use one of the custom presets for best results...  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,116023.0.html

Off hand, do you know if your monitor is a tri-sync model?

[krazyscotsman]

I agree. I think it will be well worth it. The R7 360 should be here on Wednesday. Now, I'm reconfiguring the controls since I had to do a new OS build.

Do you think the problem with the CRT and Win 7 is the EDID? I would love to go back to Win 7. I have Vista 64 working and it displays on my CRT correctly. Hating the thought of loading Win 7 and not having it work again.

Here's some shots of the chassis of the CRT.

[krazyscotsman]

Three more shots. The front chassis is not accessible.

[krick]

OK, I think we got a positive identification on the monitor.  It's most likely a Wells Gardner D9800...
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,154898.0.html

This is a tri-sync monitor.  Which means that it's capable of accepting a normal 31KHz PC video signal as well as low-res 15KHz, and mid-res 25KHz.

When you get your new video card, install CRT Emudriver 2.0, and go through the installation instructions...
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052
...one of the steps will be to enable EDID emulation.  You'll want to select the D9800 from the list.  This should make it be recognized properly by Windows 7...

[krazyscotsman]

Krick -

Thanks for all of your help so far!!! Can't thank you enough. I did find the sticker and verified. The CRT is a D9810 Rev 4. Question - is the screen grab you show, is that from the drivers or from GroovyMAME?

When configuring GroovyMAME, do I need to specify individual games and the correct refresh rate and resolution? I remember seeing somewhere an .ini file that listed many different games and the settings in terms of resolution and refresh rate. I don't recall where I sall it - I think a Soft15 thread. I know I'm getting a little a head of myself. Really wanting to get this up and going as soon as the card arrives. I'm hoping Wednesday or Thursday, it will be up and running.

Thanks again for all the help.

[krick]

The screenshot is from VMMaker (Video Mode Maker).  This is bundled with CRT Emudriver 2.0.

It's used in step 2 of this setup guide...  http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052

The beauty of using GroovyMAME is that it generates refresh rate and resolution settings on the fly based on your monitor's capabilities.  So you don't need to create ini files for every game.  Occasionally, you may want to create a custom ini file to override GroovyMAME, but that should be very rare.

Individual ini files for every game are required when using an ArcadeVGA with standard MAME.

One final note about the setup guide...  At the very end, it states something that I believe is no longer valid...

The final step is to edit mame.ini and with the options -resolution 2560x0 -cleanstretch 2.

I don't think you need to do that anymore.

[krazyscotsman]

Krick - Thanks. Can't thank you enough. I'll report back when I get my new card. now just getting my Win 7 rebuilt. Fortunately I had all my emulators saved including configurations.

[krazyscotsman]

Update - Sorry for the long delay. I had to go on business travel for roughly a week. I just had a chance tonight to work on my arcade. I have the AMD R7 360 installed, CRTEmu drivers loaded and working, GroovyMAME installed in my MAME directory (with an mame.ini file that was created by GroovyMAME), custom  resolutions generated and installed. Windows 7 is running with the new CRTEmu drivers; however, I did have to set Windows 7 to run in base video (640x480). I think everything is working correct except for a couple of problems, some of this could be the frontend (Hyperspin) and/or RLauncher. GroovyMAME games seem to work in the correct resolution and refresh rate (to be honest, I don't know how to verify entirely). One problem is when I exit GroovyMAME and go to a different emulator via Hyperspin, the screen is squashed into a rectangle. The newly launched emulator runs but its running in a very strange resolution (I'm guessing the last resolution that GroovyMAME used). If I exit Hyperspin into Windows 7, it is similar results; Windows 7 takes the entire screen but it looks like its taking the GroovyMAME resolution and stretching it across the full screen.

My questions are 1) has anyone seen this resolution problem where another emulator does not launch correctly (like it is using the last GroovyMAME resolution)? If so, how did you fix it? Was it GroovyMAME, Hyperspin (or other frontend), or RLauncher? 2) Is there any tests that I can run to verify that I have GroovyMAME setup correctly - that the custom resolution and refresh rates are being used? 3) In GroovyMAME, there is some settings that I think I need to turn off V sync is currently set to on? 3) Some other emulators that use MAME such as Atari 5200 appears to be at stretched or something, it does not look like it's the correct aspect. Do I need to set anything for these systems or should I just go back to using a MAME install for these? It seems like I would be receiving the systems (Atari 5200, etc.) in the wrong refresh as I think it would be 60Hz.

Thanks again for all the help getting this setup. I think I should be able to finish this setup over the weekend. Thank you again for all the answers to my questions.

[krazyscotsman]

Could someone share their GroovyMAME ini file? I just want to verify that the ini I am using is correct. I think it is. I generated it from GroovyMAME and then just copied over my default control settings.

Thanks again.

[krick]

So, you went through the setup as documented here...
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1052
...especially "Step 3" where it sets up the "Super" resolutions.  Correct?

Since you have a tri-sync monitor that supports higher resolutions, I believe there's a way to modify the resolutions list to include a higher resolution for the windows desktop but I don't know how to do it.

From what I understand, "super" resolutions are designed specifically to work with GroovyMAME.  I don't believe other emulators will work with super resolutions.  This probably explains the weird results you're seeing.

There's a way to generate a list of resolutions from the MAME.xml file as well as a way to include specific resolutions needed for other emulators.  This was the way it was done back before super resolutions.

Fire up Video Mode Maker (VMM) and look at the "User Modes" tab.

Here's some documentation... http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46

Maybe Calamity or someone else will see this thread and chime in.

[krazyscotsman]

Thanks Krick. I did go through steps 3. Only thing I didn't do is run GroovyMAME from command line and I didn't set the -resolution 2560x0 -cleanstretch 2. I believe you mentioned that I did not need to actually set -resolution 2560x0 -cleanstretch 2. Should I do this anyway? If so, is there a place in the mame.ini that I should modify? I looked through the mame.ini and saw resolution which is set to auto. I did not see a line for cleanstretch. I'm assuming I would change resolution from auto to -resolution 2560x0 -cleanstretch 2. Also when I was looking through GroovyMAME settings, there's some settings for VBLOCK (I think that was the setting) and it was set to auto, but auto says it uses Windows default refresh rate. I'm not sure if that's correct.

Thank you for the link to additional documentation. I'll look through it. What is strange is, if I start Demul and play a game it works with 640x480 (not sure refresh rate) but it is displayed correctly. If I open MAME and run a game, it seems to be working correctly at the right refresh and resolution. If I close MAME and run Demul, then I receive that strange narrow band of resolution that I described.

Is there a way to verify that I GroovyMAME is running at the correct refresh and resolution in a MAME game? I tried asteroids and it looked EXACTLY like the arcade but I don't know if that's a good choice to compare since it's black and white.

I do hope someone will chime in also. I really would love to finish this build. Krick - I just want to say thank you. You've helped me tremendously!

[krick]

There's some discussion in this thread (starting at the post that I have linked) regarding cleanstretch and resolution...

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,141855.msg1605677.html#msg1605677

cleanstretch doesn't exist anymore so ignore it.  resolution is optional and Calamity gives a case where you might want to use it.

Most of the setting in the mame.ini should not be touched as GroovyMAME will change them on the fly as needed.