DUAL PC Virtual Guns and Mame Analog+ success!!

[1UP]

Has anyone tried Mame Analog+ with dual lightguns other than the act-labs tv guns?  I'm especially interested in any guns that look more realistic and less like something out of a 60's sci-fi series.  Just wondering what my options are...

BTW, I am using a VGA monitor, so they can't be TV based guns.

Thanks

[Generic Eric]

check out this thread

[crashwg]

What happened to the T2 guns?

[GamingGreg]

I know of only three: Act-Labs Gun, PC Virtual Gun, and PC Bio Gun.  Only Act-Labs has a TV based version, but all three have a VGA version. I'm also interested in a gun that doesn't look like a ray gun (probably the PC Virtual Gun is what I'll get).

Kevin has an excellent review of the three guns on his RetroBlast site here, and GSXRMovistar has a review of the PC Virtual Gun on his site here.

Also, a number of people have mentioned that they had trouble getting a light gun to work with the ArcadeVGA card, but the resolution (I believe) was to make sure the H an V syncs on the monitor were not connected together.  (If using the Ultimarc power amp, there's a place on the board that needs to be cut.)

As far as using two guns, I believe this can be accomplished with Analog+ MAME, in all versions of Windows now, including XP (raw input support was added recently to do this).  I don't know if anyone has tried this or not though with light guns; it has been done with mice.

[GamingGreg]

On a related note.  Does anyone know the best place to buy a couple of PC Virtual Guns? (I'm in the US)

I've found it here on the lik-sang site for $25.
I've also found it here on the Hong Kong Toys site for $20.

I know next to nothing about these companies.  Are they ligit? are they realiable? Anyone have good or bad experiences with them?

[jerryjanis]

As far as using two guns, I believe this can be accomplished with Analog+ MAME, in all versions of Windows now, including XP (raw input support was added recently to do this).  I don't know if anyone has tried this or not though with light guns; it has been done with mice.

U_rebelscum mentioned that he tested MameAnalog+ XP with 2 Act Labs PC lightguns back in September and verified that they work.

I finally got to test it today and it works (of course), including with two lightguns.

The Bio Gun and the Virtual Guns sound like they should also work in combination with the others (judging from KevSteele's review saying that they all seem to work the same in that they are generic HID devices, requiring no drivers).

[shmokes]

Hey 1up.  Update to Mame .78 and run a "mame.exe -cc" to generate a new mame.ini.  I just got it set up and noticed that one of the options available is to enable/disable dual light gun support.  According to Howard there was no reason to do this for the TV-out guns since they already worked.  I'm thinking that you might not even need Analog+.  That said, I have no way of testing it because I have the TV-out guns....and my cabs not even quite finished yet anyway.

Long story short, some kind of support appears to be built into the plain vanilla Mame for dual light guns now.

[Jakobud]

I just wish it was possible to not have to recalibrate the stupid guns everytime the resolution changes.  Why can't the calibrations be saved and reused?

[jerryjanis]

Hey 1up.  Update to Mame .78 and run a "mame.exe -cc" to generate a new mame.ini.  I just got it set up and noticed that one of the options available is to enable/disable dual light gun support.  According to Howard there was no reason to do this for the TV-out guns since they already worked.  I'm thinking that you might not even need Analog+.  That said, I have no way of testing it because I have the TV-out guns....and my cabs not even quite finished yet anyway.

Long story short, some kind of support appears to be built into the plain vanilla Mame for dual light guns now.

I looked through the new Mame code (version 78), and it looks to me like the dual lightgun support is specific to the act labs TV light guns.

Quoting Mame code:

   // Act-Labs dual lightgun - _only_ works with Windows messages for input location
   if (use_lightgun_dual)
   {
      if (player==0)
      {
         point.x=lightgun_dual_player_pos\[0\].x; // Button 0 is player 1
         point.y=lightgun_dual_player_pos\[0\].y; // Button 0 is player 1
      }
      else if (player==1)
      {
         point.x=lightgun_dual_player_pos\[2\].x; // Button 2 is player 2
         point.y=lightgun_dual_player_pos\[2\].y; // Button 2 is player 2
      }

  ...

   }

"Button 0 is player 1" and "Button 2 is player 2": That's how the TV light guns work, not the original PC lightguns   (I traced back in the code and it's true - this code is not differentiating between the mice, only the button which is pressed.)

According to Howard there was no reason to do this for the TV-out guns since they already worked.

It's true, Mame worked with dual TV lightguns with a little bit of confiuration.  I'm not sure why the Mame team needed to add this code in there - perhaps to make it easier to set up?

The PC lightguns (including the Bio/Virtual guns) don't have such a switch, so either DirectX (windows 9x) or RawInput (Windows XP) needs to be used to differentiate between different mice (and not the button number), so MameAnalog+ will still need to be used for the VGA-based light guns.

[GamingGreg]

I just wish it was possible to not have to recalibrate the stupid guns everytime the resolution changes.  Why can't the calibrations be saved and reused?

You can force all of your light gun games to use a specific resolution (ie 640x480), using the INI files.  This would allow you to not have to callibrate the gun each time (as the resolution wouldn't change).  I know that this means the game isn't running in it's native resolution, but it would elimate that hastle.  It's a trade-off.

[1UP]

What happened to the T2 guns?

T2 guns are still there, but I'm bringing in my cab to work, and don't want anyone to have to mount and hook them up.  The lightguns can always be hooked up and holstered on the sides.  Anyway, they're better for games like Area 51...

[1UP]

I just wish it was possible to not have to recalibrate the stupid guns everytime the resolution changes.  Why can't the calibrations be saved and reused?

You can force all of your light gun games to use a specific resolution (ie 640x480), using the INI files.  This would allow you to not have to callibrate the gun each time (as the resolution wouldn't change).  I know that this means the game isn't running in it's native resolution, but it would elimate that hastle.  It's a trade-off.

Maybe HWStretch only the gun games...

[1UP]

Well, after reading the reviews, I've ordered 2 of the PC Virtual guns, and 2 Happ holsters.  They'd better work or I'm screwed.  I dont' think returning them to HK would be easy...

Why these guns?  I know the Act-Labs is supposed to be a little more accurate, but I really want them to fit in standard holsters, and I really hate the look of the A-L's but I'm tired of hacking stuff.  I haven't heard of anyone successfully hacking the Act guts into another shell, so they must be a little too bulky to allow this.  I'd rather have something that looks good right out of the box...

[menace]

...I'm tired of hacking stuff...

ah the end of an era...sigh

Let us know how it goes, service and performance wise--I too preferred the more gun looking guns but am leery of a site overseas. (no offence andy )

[NoOne=NBA=]

I've got one Act-Labs at the moment.
I'm planning to get another one soon.
I went with them because, dumb shape or not, I want ACCURACY.
Gun games are far and away my favorite type of game, and there is nothing worse to me than shooting at something and missing, when I KNOW my sight picture was good.
The same goes for calibration.
If it helps me hit what I'm shooting at, it's a tolerable inconvenience.
That is much better to me than a gun that isn't hitting, and CAN'T be calibrated.

The best review I've seen on the PC Virtual Gun claims that it has OK accuracy.

As far as my personal review of the Act-Labs, I have found it to be VERY accurate on most games when properly calibrated.
The fit on it is perfect for my hands, as well.
When using a two-handed grip on it, with my off-hand palm below the butt of the gun, my off-hand thumb falls PERFECTLY on the reload button.
If they ever do come out with a REAL style gun, I'm definitely going to pick one up, but for now the Space-Gun's it, I guess.

[1UP]

I guess OK accuracy is OK with me...    My main consideration at the moment is that I am planning to bring this machine to work with me soon.  A lot of people will be using it, so it needs to be as dummy-proof as possible.  I can't ask the company to come to a halt so I can explain to 30 people how to calibrate a lightgun.

There is also the fact that there are ready-made Happ cabinet holsters that will fit an automatic-type gunshell.  Their Uzi holster might hold the Act-Labs, but I don't have any way to know until I buy it.

In the heat of  a fast-paced arcade shootout, there really isn't enough time to use line up the sights perfectly, so my typical method is to aim with both eyes open, centering my target roughly between the two images of the gun (one from each eye) and rattle off 2 or 3 shots.  My shot accuracy stats may be a little lower that way, but I always hit the target with one of those shots.  Supposedly the Virtual gun stays reasonably calibrated as long as you always use 640x480.  That's not a problem and is easily configured.

Anyway, I played many a game in ardcade where the guns weren't perfectly calibrated.  Actually, I'm sure they are rarely calibrated.  What's good enough for the real thing is good enough for me.

I'll let you know how it goes when I get the guns.

[Trenchbroom]

On a related note.  Does anyone know the best place to buy a couple of PC Virtual Guns? (I'm in the US)

I've found it here on the lik-sang site for $25.
I've also found it here on the Hong Kong Toys site for $20.

I know next to nothing about these companies.  Are they ligit? are they realiable? Anyone have good or bad experiences with them?

I'm in the US and I've ordered from Lik-Sang a couple of times before.  The shipping is a bit much straight from Hong Kong (I bought one of those PSX-USB adaptors when they first came out and paid $18 air mail for a parcel that only weighed about 10 oz.) but they seem reliable and they are respectible, as Hong Kong outfits go.  Your experience may vary of course  

[1UP]

Lik-Sang is good.  I ordered the guns from Hong Kong and they arrived in Los Angeles in 2 days.    No delay in filling that order!

As for the guns...well, they were a pain to set up.  When GSXRMovistar said the instructions on the box were in very broken english, he was putting it mildly.  I got about as much info from the english as from the chinese instructions.  Basically all you need to know are these two numbers: 640x480, and 60Hz.  Set MAME to run your gun games at these settings, and you're halfway there.  Any other resolution, and the screen may not flash properly.  Any other frequency, and your calibration will be way off.

Oh yeah, calibration: there is none.  I learned right away that the crosshairs would never match up at all with the sights except near the bottom-right corner.  But I was able to get pretty darn good accuracy just by changing the Lightgun X & Y Sensitivity settings in MAME.  I cranked the X up to about 75%, and the Y up to 105%.  This got the crosshairs almost dead on with the sights about 75% of the time.

The other 25% of the shots tend to drift off from the sights by about 5-20 pixels at random intervals, in random directions.  This seems to be due to loss of sync when the screen flashes white.  When the gun is fired, it draws a bunch of white horizontal lines, about 3 or 4 scanlines apart.  This seems to freak out my monitor, as each line appears to be a different length from the others, and some protrude beyond the edges of the game screen.  I believe that the lines are being drawn slightly out of sync with each other, causing the occasional miscalibration.  Anyway, 9 times out of 10 when take the time to sight in an alien in Area 51, I get him with one shot.  There is the occasional miss, but usually the shot is close enough.

One good thing: the video passthru quality is excellent.  I saw absolutely no signs of ghosting or fuzziness after hookup.

I have yet to try dual guns, as this requires a download and setup of Analog +, which will have to wait until tomorrow...

[1UP]

OK, I'm having a bit of trouble getting two guns to work in analog+.  I found the -mouse -multimousexp option that must be used, which allows mame to identify two separate sets of mouse buttons.  But when I run in dual mouse mode, the crosshairs are nowhere to be found.  Also, it is impossible for me to hit anything, although I hear gunshots.

Not sure what to do about this.  Although I thank dear sweet jesus for that urebelscum and jake has made this possible, documentation on the process of configuration could be better.  I would welcome a walkthrough on this...I have only one day a week to do anything on my cab, and I have spent all day just trying to get dual guns working, rather than all the cab finishing stuff I need to do so I can bring this thing in to work next week!  

Another problem:  the Area51.chd that used to work just fine under mame.71b now refuse to work under newer versions.  It reports a checksum error.  Any way to get mame to just ignore the checksum and just play the damn thing?  I'm tired of having to re-download megs and megs of stuff everytime a new mame comes out.  

[1UP]

Hold the phone--I got 'em working!  12 hours later...

It finally dawned on me...something that Einstein said: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results."  Or words to that effect...

So I did a little basic troubleshooting.  I took out the lightguns, and plugged in two USB mice.  After a quick chdman -update (to fix the problem with Mame not recognizing the HD image), I launched Area51, and voila, dual mice!  I almost jumped out the window when I saw those two crosshairs moving!!!  

So I quit Mame, pulled the mice and put the guns back in, launched again using the exact same commandline (mameanalogxp -mouse -multimousexp area51) and damned if the thing didn't finally work!  The crosshairs were a bit off, but I finally had two guns aiming at two different spots.  A quick tab to "controls - this game" revealed the problem: MameAnalog+ had been seeing the two guns as mouse2 and mouse3.  Thru some miracle, the reconnecting of the guns brought them back as Mouse1 and Mouse2.  This was verified by remapping the buttons, as the names of the mice/guns changed.

Went back to the "analog controls" setting, and tweaked the settings to calibrate the guns as best as possible (x sensitivity 75%, y sensitivity 110% on both guns).  Hit F1 to hide the crosshairs, and I'm a happy camper.

All I'm waiting for now are my two holsters from Happ...  Funny, I paid the same for shipping, but the guns from Hong Kong came almost a full week before the holsters are due to arrive...  

[jerryjanis]

Phew, I'm glad they worked!

Is it safe to assume that since the Virtua guns need to run at 640x480@60khz that they would never work with an arcade monitor?

[1UP]

Phew, I'm glad they worked!

Is it safe to assume that since the Virtua guns need to run at 640x480@60khz that they would never work with an arcade monitor?

Actually, I have gotten them to work at 320x240.  They may work with other low resolutions too.  They also seem to work OK with low resolutions hardware-stretched to 640x480.

However, in one of the reviews linked above, it was stated that none of the available lightguns worked with the ArcadeVGA card, so I don't know how else you would interface the monitor.  The guns do require a VGA connection.

BTW, I said 60Hz, not 60kHz.  I'm talking about the refresh rate in Windows or Mame, which they recommend at 60Hz.

Also BTW, I will probably still find a way to use my T2 guns, as the lightguns SUCK at rapid-fire games.  Too much flashy not good for the eyes...

[Minwah]

Also BTW, I will probably still find a way to use my T2 guns, as the lightguns SUCK at rapid-fire games.  Too much flashy not good for the eyes...

I'd be interested to see what you can do...I bought an Act-Labs gun and to be honest am disappointed by the poor accuracy/wierd random aiming of the thing...calibrating is a pain also.

Seems stupid that in 1984 people were playing gun games at home on the NES with no probs, but in 2004 on a PC it's so difficult - who would've thought...

[NoOne=NBA=]

Minwah,

What are you playing, what setup are you using, and how are you calibrating it?
My gun has really good accuracy on all but a few games that I think have problems in how they read the mouse movement.

[Sasquatch!]

This thread is BOOKMARKED!  Thanks for the info, 1UP!

[GamingGreg]

Phew, I'm glad they worked!

Is it safe to assume that since the Virtua guns need to run at 640x480@60khz that they would never work with an arcade monitor?

Actually, I have gotten them to work at 320x240.  They may work with other low resolutions too.  They also seem to work OK with low resolutions hardware-stretched to 640x480.

However, in one of the reviews linked above, it was stated that none of the available lightguns worked with the ArcadeVGA card, so I don't know how else you would interface the monitor.  The guns do require a VGA connection.

BTW, I said 60Hz, not 60kHz.  I'm talking about the refresh rate in Windows or Mame, which they recommend at 60Hz.

Also BTW, I will probably still find a way to use my T2 guns, as the lightguns SUCK at rapid-fire games.  Too much flashy not good for the eyes...

Glad you got them working.  The arcadeVGA with Lightguns issue may have something to do with how the arcade monitor is hooked up.  If the Hsync and Vsyncs are tied together (which they often are), that might be the issue (see this thread
here).