Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal

[Howard_Casto]

These rabid arguments about absolutely nothing are the lifeblood of BYOAC.

I whole-heartedly disagree with this statement.  Now let us commence with the thread derailment. 

[ChadTower]

I want coffee but am too lazy to go downstairs and buy some.

[Dragonman73]

Now I have another one. Sold a brand new Spectre Air filter a few days ago and the buyer got it today.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/192196992790?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

They initiated a return request on this -

Spectre Universal Air Filter New HPR9881B
Item ID: 192196992790
Order ID: --------------
Buyer email:------------
Sale price: $32.00
Sale date: Jun-11-17 16:21:22 PDT
Buyer ID: -----------------
Return ID: -----------------
Return opened: Jun-14-17 20:45:37 PDT
Return shipping: seller pays
Return reason: Doesn't seem authentic
Comments: IT to much big for my car.

^ It seems like this jackass bought the air cleaner without doing any research. I listed the part number in the auction and took a photo of the side of the box showing the part number and physical size.

He has 15 feedback and I had a feeling this was going to be trouble. He filed a "not as described" claim on this admitting it was too big for his car and wants a full refund and me pay shipping to get it back....

I figure I will have to take a hit on this one and not giving the refund willingly, even though I provided pictures and described it as best as I possibly could in the listing.

If they pull the money from me it's only $32

Sad thing is I wasn't going to list it as it wasn't going to be a money maker, but I figured someone else could have used it. Screwed myself on this one.

[SlammedNiss]

Sometimes ya gotta stand your ground. Get him to explain HOW it was "not as described" in your correspondence. If his only retort is that it didn't fit his car, I don't see where he has a case as you sold it as being a "universal" fit and not specific to any particular vehicle. In the meantime, take down ALL your auctions from eBay and take a vacation because it seems you're getting bent over right and left.

Edit:

n/m. I see he said it didn't seem authentic. Which means he's fishing to excuses to return it. Definitely bring that up to eBay re: his comment that "IT to much big for my car" and that that's only an excuse because he didn't check to see if it would fit his car prior to purchase.  Good luck with this one...

[Mike A]

If you are going to use eBay for business, then you have to act like you are in business. You need to factor returns into your business plan. If you do not have a business plan, you need to stop selling stuff until you have one. My company ships products by truck and by UPS. We take back returns every week. We don't love it but we have it built into our profit projections. EBay wasn't really meant for this. It was intended to be used to sell left over junk you had laying around in your house. It's like an internet garage sale. It evolved into a mail order business. eBay and PayPal take too much off of the top for a business to profit efficiently.

[Dragonman73]

If you are going to use eBay for business, then you have to act like you are in business. You need to factor returns into your business plan. If you do not have a business plan, you need to stop selling stuff until you have one. My company ships products by truck and by UPS. We take back returns every week. We don't love it but we have it built into our profit projections. EBay wasn't really meant for this. It was intended to be used to sell left over junk you had laying around in your house. It's like an internet garage sale. It evolved into a mail order business. eBay and PayPal take too much off of the top for a business to profit efficiently.

It's a double edge sword here, I don't sell enough stuff to be classified as a "business".

it's like an insurance company, the rates go down the more people that buy in to it and they can afford to take individual losses here and there. I can't compete with power sellers that sell hundreds of thousands a month, buying merchandise at a low price and selling at a mark up.

These are the ones that can factor in returns / chargebacks by writing off every 11th item of every ten items sold.

I'm left over from the early days of ebay where your average guy will clean out his garage and list stuff...but apparently that business model is long gone with companies like Jegs and Chinese companies jumping in the mix. I've been on eBay since 2001 as a buyer and a seller and this is the first time I have been hit three times in a week like this over issues I had no control over.

It looks like I am going to have to quit selling there as having three issues in a week is a bit much, it's either going to break me mentally or financially.

[Mike A]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you are low volume you may not be able to charge enough to recoup losses from returns.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Dragonman73]

Sometimes ya gotta stand your ground. Get him to explain HOW it was "not as described" in your correspondence. If his only retort is that it didn't fit his car, I don't see where he has a case as you sold it as being a "universal" fit and not specific to any particular vehicle. In the meantime, take down ALL your auctions from eBay and take a vacation because it seems you're getting bent over right and left.

Edit:

n/m. I see he said it didn't seem authentic. Which means he's fishing to excuses to return it. Definitely bring that up to eBay re: his comment that "IT to much big for my car" and that that's only an excuse because he didn't check to see if it would fit his car prior to purchase.  Good luck with this one...

Yeah on this one I am going to stand my ground and not willingly give the refund.

For one I am not going to pay shipping 2x because he couldn't do research before buying the merchandise, part number was in the listing and the size and specs was on the label in the pic

plus since it wasn't a lot of money I get to test out who's side eBay takes in this. A person who has been a member since 2001 as both a seller and a buyer. With a outstanding seller rating or a guy who joined last year and has only a 15 feedback rating as a buyer...spaced out apart.

Like you said, he's fishing for excuses to return it and pulling it out of his ass. And wants me to take the hit on the shipping. Personally that's abusing the system, doesn't make it right but he is.

Yeah your right I need to take a vacation from ebay for a bit

[ChadTower]

There is also the thought that you could end up losing a lot more here if you waste time fighting over an item that wasn't going to make anything anyway.  What is your time worth?

[Dragonman73]

Well not letting a buyer take advantage of me at my expense is worth more to me than my time.

If I am forced by eBay to give him a refund, then so be it. But I won't encourage negligent buyer behavior by issuing a full refund simply because. And do you really think this buyer is going to take the time to print a label, slap it on that box and mail it back to me? I didn't have that option.....all eBay gave me as choices in the claim was:

1. Full Refund (seller pays shipping)

2. Partial Refund

3. Message the buyer

They want to leave it up to me to sort out how I was getting it back

The terms were stated and implied in my listing - No returns. I listed the item as described and did what I was supposed to, as well as shipping quickly and packing well. I shipped the buyer exactly what I had listed. It was listed by part number and I didn't say it fit specific vehicles as this was a universal filter.  Nothing wrong with the merchandise and buyer admitted to not fitting his car. 

Even though this was listed as new, I listed it at a lower cost than competing ebay sellers such as Jegs and A1 Auto. These sellers have a return policy because they sell these items in large quantities. I just had one. If the buyer wanted that "no questions asked" return guarantee then they should have went with the bigger companies and paid 20% more for the product.

I've noticed a trend on eBay that the number of seller negatives increase in direct correlation with buyer feedback and cost of item. For example the lower the cost of the item and feedback the buyer has...the chance of them leaving a negative on the buyer increases.

[pbj]

Perhaps, some day, we'll be able to handle online transactions with VR.  All it takes is you plebes dropping $2,000 on hardware to make it a reality.

[Mike A]

The VR thread is spreading everywhere. Somebody make it stop.

[yotsuya]

Perhaps, some day, we'll be able to handle online transactions with VR.  All it takes is you plebes dropping $2,000 on hardware to make it a reality.

Don't cross the threads, bro. You'll have Dave y Chaddles talking so much it'll break the server again.

[Howard_Casto]

Virtual insanity is what we're livin' in.... yeah....

[dkersten]

If you knew anything about business

You would not have made this statement.

one of the most successful companies ever in history

Yet they made more than Amazon last year by more than double (and that is par for the course).  And they don't produce anything.  And for every dollar in revenue, nearly 80% is profit.  There are only a handful of companies in history that can claim that kind of success. 

Furthermore, their revenue is almost 100% based on customers using their services, and hence their success is based on customers being happy enough to keep doing business and NOT going to the competitors.  That doesn't happen when the company doesn't care about customer service, and it sure as hell doesn't happen when a company completely ignores customers.  To say anything otherwise is complete absurdity.

But what do I know?  Of course ebay is the big evil corporation that is only looking to screw as many people as they can with policies that are only in place to entice unsuspecting customers into trusting them before stealing all their money, and their success as a company is only due to their predatory practices.  Much better to just rely on a garage sale to sell your old crap.

[Mike A]

Gross profit is not the whole picture by a long shot. Look at their revenue compared to Amazon. eBay 9 billion. Amazon 136 billion. Walmart is something like 500 billion. These companies are not seeking high profit margins. It would interfere with their growth and acquisition strategies.


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[ark_ader]

The VR thread is spreading everywhere. Somebody make it stop.

During CES 2015 you had to really work hard to miss all the VR offerings.  Nearly all the attendees had a VR of some sort.  And no antiseptic wipes in sight.  The colds and itchies you could catch.....

[ChadTower]

I totally got pink eye from the Scott Baio VR demo.

[SlammedNiss]

Well not letting a buyer take advantage of me at my expense is worth more to me than my time.

If I am forced by eBay to give him a refund, then so be it. But I won't encourage negligent buyer behavior by issuing a full refund simply because. And do you really think this buyer is going to take the time to print a label, slap it on that box and mail it back to me? I didn't have that option.....all eBay gave me as choices in the claim was:

1. Full Refund (seller pays shipping)

2. Partial Refund

3. Message the buyer

They want to leave it up to me to sort out how I was getting it back

The terms were stated and implied in my listing - No returns. I listed the item as described and did what I was supposed to, as well as shipping quickly and packing well. I shipped the buyer exactly what I had listed. It was listed by part number and I didn't say it fit specific vehicles as this was a universal filter.  Nothing wrong with the merchandise and buyer admitted to not fitting his car. 

Even though this was listed as new, I listed it at a lower cost than competing ebay sellers such as Jegs and A1 Auto. These sellers have a return policy because they sell these items in large quantities. I just had one. If the buyer wanted that "no questions asked" return guarantee then they should have went with the bigger companies and paid 20% more for the product.

I've noticed a trend on eBay that the number of seller negatives increase in direct correlation with buyer feedback and cost of item. For example the lower the cost of the item and feedback the buyer has...the chance of them leaving a negative on the buyer increases.

any new updates on the air filter buyer?

[Dragonman73]

Well not letting a buyer take advantage of me at my expense is worth more to me than my time.

If I am forced by eBay to give him a refund, then so be it. But I won't encourage negligent buyer behavior by issuing a full refund simply because. And do you really think this buyer is going to take the time to print a label, slap it on that box and mail it back to me? I didn't have that option.....all eBay gave me as choices in the claim was:

1. Full Refund (seller pays shipping)

2. Partial Refund

3. Message the buyer

They want to leave it up to me to sort out how I was getting it back

The terms were stated and implied in my listing - No returns. I listed the item as described and did what I was supposed to, as well as shipping quickly and packing well. I shipped the buyer exactly what I had listed. It was listed by part number and I didn't say it fit specific vehicles as this was a universal filter.  Nothing wrong with the merchandise and buyer admitted to not fitting his car. 

Even though this was listed as new, I listed it at a lower cost than competing ebay sellers such as Jegs and A1 Auto. These sellers have a return policy because they sell these items in large quantities. I just had one. If the buyer wanted that "no questions asked" return guarantee then they should have went with the bigger companies and paid 20% more for the product.

I've noticed a trend on eBay that the number of seller negatives increase in direct correlation with buyer feedback and cost of item. For example the lower the cost of the item and feedback the buyer has...the chance of them leaving a negative on the buyer increases.

any new updates on the air filter buyer?

Called eBay yesterday and they said that the buyer has never contacted them further or replied to their emails. Today or tomorrow is when they are going to review it (three days had to go by) and they told me my listing was accurate and this was a clear case of buyers remorse.

They wanted me to send one more email asking why the filter didn't seem authentic and why it was too big for their car...basically reiterating the stuff listed in the description, like the size and part number.

This is supposed to show eBay I am doing what I am doing something and proving my case. That this was as described, I provided plenty of info and that it was listed as no returns.

I'll find out more when they rule and close the case in the next day or so.

[Dragonman73]

any new updates on the air filter buyer?

Got a email from eBay this morning telling me I still have a buyer claim pending, when I clicked on the think this time I had an 4th option to message eBay. After I clicked that I had an option to say I don't agree with the return, and a comments field. I restated that did my part as a seller and described the item accurately and as a seller I shouldn't have to pay shipping 2x's and eat the cost of the transaction because the buyer said it didn't fit his car. This was a universal part and he had to verify fitment before the purchase based on the description and item number in my auction.

I clicked sent....and just a few minutes ago I noticed it was closed and paypal released my money, worked in my favor.

[SlammedNiss]

......just a few minutes ago I noticed it was closed and paypal released my money, worked in my favor.

Nice to see one work out in the seller's favor!!

[dkersten]

Gross profit is not the whole picture by a long shot. Look at their revenue compared to Amazon. eBay 9 billion. Amazon 136 billion. Walmart is something like 500 billion. These companies are not seeking high profit margins. It would interfere with their growth and acquisition strategies.

Yes, I will concede that profit does not equal success.  But neither does size.  Nor does revenue.  It is the relationship of size, revenue, gross profit, and overhead, that leads to determining the success of the company.  EBay is not a big company, but you can't find a company their size that is more profitable.  That 6+ billion eBay made last year is NET profit, not GROSS.  Amazon had to make 136 Billion in revenue to make LESS net profit.  I didn't say eBay was one of the biggest companies out there, I said they were one of the most successful.  Name one other company that can do 9 billion in revenue and NET 6 billion in profit.  When you can pull billions in profit with almost no overhead, you are extremely successful.

Amazon provides similar services to eBay, and is also an incredibly successful company in different ways as well, which is why I compare it.  Could Amazon survive losing that part of their business?  Sure, they are huge and have many other (albeit less profitable) revenue streams as well as tons of assets.  Could eBay survive losing that part of their business?  Hell no.  It is their ENTIRE business.  Paypal is just a relatively small bank that gets most of it's business from the eBay transactions, and without those eBay transactions, there is just a small bank that doesn't have much else to offer.  Bottom line: eBay is not big enough to treat their customers as if they are irrelevant, as was suggested.

[dkersten]

....and just a few minutes ago I noticed it was closed and paypal released my money, worked in my favor.

That's good to hear.  Sounds like they are paying attention to the customers after all..

[Dragonman73]

beginning to think these speaker kick panels I got back and gave the eBay buyer a refund are cursed

I got them back safe and sound so I threw a couple of ads up on facebook groups.

The first one to reply acted interested, we went back and forth and I sent him my paypal.

Thinking he was ready to buy them, he replied back and asked if I could hold them for a week until he got paid....I said yeah no prob (normally don't do that)

A day later someone else that lived close by message and said he was coming to buy them, before I could reply he was calling my phone through some faceboook messaging system

I replied and said I agreed to hold them for someone else until Friday so I wanted to give them a chance first. He said ok.

He then went to the post and told that first person if they didn't buy them he was.....really aggressive like.

I kid you not, over the next four-five days he messaged me three time if the guy bought them yet, he wanted to get them while he had the money. The third time I said it wasn't Friday yet. 

So Friday roles around and the first person pays as agreed via paypal, I send him tracking and said I was dropping them off at fedex kinkos 1st thing sat morning.

I drop them off, get my proof of receipt and they are now in transit......last night I get a frantic message from the buyer asking why they haven't been shipped yet? Kind of rude.

I said they have, pulled the tracking up and sent him the URL. It's actually being delivered today, was in the next town over last night.

Sent him a picture of the receipt as well

Apparently he used the tracking number I gave him on his phone, and the fedex app wasn't showing updates, other than the fact I made the label.

But it was updated and correct in a web browser.....not once did the guy apologize....my guess is he has been checking the tracking since Monday and Tuesday and got himself worked up and responded to me like I was trying to scam him or something. But still no apology for overreacting.

[pbj]

Overreactions abound.

[Dragonman73]

Yeah your gonna need to chill out

[RandyT]

Ebay is one of those things where you had better be handy if you want to use it.  Sellers misrepresent condition a LOT.  Unless it's unfixable junk, I rarely file a claim against a seller.  I usually get very good deals, and expect to have to do some handy work.  But, I DO make good use of their feedback system if an item is grossly misrepresented.

Case in point:  I just received a knife sharpener for a friend who just started as a meat cutter at the local grocery store.  He asked me to find him a sharpener like the one I had been using for him in my kitchen, and I did.  It was a very good price, and included priority shipping.  The seller had ~41000 transactions, and a 99.8% positive rating.   It played out not well.  First, the package arrived very quickly, but $13 postage due because there was no postage on the package at all.  Told the PO to return to sender, and it was sent out again quickly.  When it arrived the second time, I unpacked it and found that the unit was obviously dropped onto a hard floor from countertop height onto the foot recess, causing a large part of the bottom to be broken out and broke a part of the inside, which was rattling around.  Every part of the unit was shown in the photographs EXCEPT the section which was broken, and the seller described the condition as "It is Used Condition showing some light normal use."

Because the price was so low after his shipping costs, and because I was able to verify that the unit was functional, I just got out the screwdriver and gorilla glue and went at it.  I did, however, leave a neutral feedback, and noted the issues as accurately as possible in the limited space.

I almost never return items.  A fixable item in the hand, at a very low price, is always better than nothing.  The rest of the time, Paypal is usually very good.  And when they aren't, I'll chalk it up to a "gambling" loss at the "ebay casino", and factor it against the times I've done better than most would imagine possible.  But I still make sure to leave an honest, negative feedback.

Sellers and buyers alike are often guilty of bad behavior, and in my experience, the number of positive feedbacks provides minimal insurance that you won't get the pointy end of the stick.  If more people used, and were honest in the feedback they leave, it would be a lot easier.  But that gets manipulated as well, so it's not a great indicator.

Buyers and sellers alike should treat ebay as a casino.  You can't win if you don't play, but if you don't have the stomach for losses, you probably shouldn't put your money on the table.

[yotsuya]

lol

[dkersten]

I just gambled in the eBay casino...  I finally decided on what whole house audio controller I wanted to use, a Russound MCA-88x.  These things are like $3500 just for the unit, and you still need speakers, control pads, and of course to have wires in place in the walls.  They go for around $1800 on eBay usually, but I saw one that was pulled from a working system for around $1200.  It was missing the connectors for the speakers, but I found those on eBay for like $23.  So I pulled the trigger.  Controller pads, of which I need 6 total, are going for $130-170 on eBay ($200-$500 new), and so far I purchased 2, one of the bigger 2 gang units, and one of the single gang.  I also sprung for the tuner for this system, which is ridiculously expensive for a damned FM tuner, but my personal use of my in-wall system has always been 90% radio (morning talk show I like that is not available in a stream).  I also needed 8 more channels of amplification for the system, and I found a 12 channel Elan amp that was also a pull from a working system for super cheap ($179, usually stuff like this is in the $400-600 range).

So it will all get in early next week, and I will hook it all up and see if I made a bad gamble.  If it works, I just got into a system that has one of the best API's for connecting to home automation controllers for 30-40% of the cost of new and equivalent in price to an entry level system with marginal API support.  If not, I return it.

The description clearly said it works.  If all it had said was "it powers up", I would have passed and sprung for the additional $400-600 for an overstock from a dealer.  "powers up" is way too vague and doesn't give me an out if it powers up but doesn't work.  Either way, without a certified installer, I don't get warranty anyway, and the extra $2-4k to buy through a dealer and have it installed is not worth a year of warranty to me. 

To me, this is the best part about eBay... the chance to save big money on something you are going to buy either way, but with better protection than if you just buy it on craigslist or through a forum.  Like Randy said, it is a gamble, but it isn't nearly as big a gamble as just about any other way to buy used crap.