Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal

[Dragonman73]

Sold something on eBay on 5/1/17, buyer paid with paypal

I noticed the buyer name was Katherine F********* and the "ship to" was John P****** but that isn't anything out of the norm as I have seen husbands / wives, Kids / Parents with paypal accounts tied together.

The address was confirmed and paypal had the flag "ok to ship" so everything seemed on the up and up.

I ship them the next day and tie fedex tracking with the account as I usually do. They were delivered a few days later. Figured everything was good to go.

So here we are and it's 6/7/17, over a month later and I go to check my email this morning and see that I got one from paypal for an unauthorized chargeback??

Apparently Katherine ******** decided that she didn't make this charge and it was done without her authorization.

So now my account is in the negative $147 and I am waiting on Paypal to review this case. I provided tracking already so there is nothing else "I need to do" at this time.

I looked up Katherine F********** address online and John P********* is also listed at that address both are showing to be 66 or so years old. She also shows up as having the same last name as John in some searches. So the package WENT TO the correct address that is shown for both of them as listed by paypal AND what was found through a property search. Basically the person (s) purchased merchandise from me, actually received it to their address.

Best I can tell is maybe a crappy grandson used their account or heck maybe even John P****** used the account and decided to pull an unauthorized charge back to keep the stuff....who knows

But I get to see how much paypal protects the seller in these cases....I followed their guidelines so hopefully it works out. I def shipped to the address they said was "ok to ship to".

[fallacy]

I would like to know as well, you always hear how PayPal is a farce when it comes to actual security, like the TSA.

[ChadTower]

I gave up selling on ebay because of the fraud constantly going on.  Every other item would get submitted for a refund with various claims.  "Not as decribed" despite a dozen clear pictures.  "Did not arrive" even when it was delivery confirmed.  It seemed like most buyers would file claims just to see if you'd fail to respond properly and they'd win by default.  Meanwhile your funds are all tied up and you're still dealing with something you put into Ebay to be rid of in the first place.  It just wasn't worth it anymore unless the item is super rare or expensive.

[Titchgamer]

This exact thing happened to me years ago.

Sadly they found their favour even though I produced all the evidence available to prove it was not my mistake!

[pbj]

The probability of a buyer/seller utilizing Ebay/Paypal feeling that they've been scammed is 100%.

[GrizzlyThunder]

That's sickening that people act this way. I love eBay and it makes my life much easier to find a rare item or a small part. I'm interested in hearing the result.


WeChat: GrizzlyThunder

[Raleigh]

I still sell quite a bit on Ebay and have had my fair share of cases including Unauthorized charge.   My recommendation is to call and talk to someone, usually they look and see that you meet the requirements and remove any holds of money back to your account, I keep mine low so these put me in the negative and I let them know I am unable to print shipping labels with the negative balance due to the claim.  In all my cases they remove the hold and tell me to upload the tracking showing that I shipped to the address on file and that's it.  Chances are Paypal will lose the CC dispute but they will eat the loss as you followed the guidelines to be protected.  Be thankful they are scamming that way and not opening a case of "Not as Described" and lying about what was received, those are the ones that are difficult to win.

[SlammedNiss]

I documented my last eBay buyer issue HERE. It worked out for me in the long run. Either he never filed a complaint, or he attempted to file a complaint and eBay make a snap judgement in my favor. Either way nothing ever came of his threats. I waited the std. 60 days they have to leave feedback then sent him the following snarky message.

I just remembered about your crazy accusations and apparent idle threats. What ever happened to you letting eBay decide? You finally realize you didn't have a case?

LOL!

God I hate eBay sometimes, but for me, it's a necessary evil for an extra income. Anyway, good luck and hope it works out for ya.

[ark_ader]

Well it happened to me and I was the buyer.  I bought a sega saturn off some guy on ebay.  It arrived well shipped but was DOA.  I contacted Paypal and opened a case after the seller ignored my emails for a week.  Sure enough I got my money back plus shipping charges back from paypal.  The seller said that the device was working and he started a case against me.  Sure enough paypal took the money out of my bank account without telling me.  So I have no sega saturn and down one hundred bucks. I also got a charge from my bank for the transaction.

That is why I do not buy on ebay anymore.  I use paypal for cinema tickets but not to a live body.

Sorry to hear of the trouble you had.  Better to make it a lesson learned.  These days it is not worth it.  Is this the same for Worldpay?

[SlammedNiss]

Well it happened to me and I was the buyer.  I bought a sega saturn off some guy on ebay.  It arrived well shipped but was DOA.  I contacted Paypal and opened a case after the seller ignored my emails for a week.  Sure enough I got my money back plus shipping charges back from paypal.  The seller said that the device was working and he started a case against me.  Sure enough paypal took the money out of my bank account without telling me.  So I have no sega saturn and down one hundred bucks. I also got a charge from my bank for the transaction.

That is why I do not buy on ebay anymore.  I use paypal for cinema tickets but not to a live body.

Sorry to hear of the trouble you had.  Better to make it a lesson learned.  These days it is not worth it.  Is this the same for Worldpay?

Their "Payapl Protection" is pretty much hit or miss. It's almost impossible to predict what they'll do. You can be certain they'll side with you then they throw you a curve ball. I try really hard not to buy used electronics there, but sometimes it's your only choice. Something like a Saturn would be damn near impossible to find locally in my area so if I was in the market for one, eBay would probably be my only option.

I did buy a used OG Xbox several years back from a guy in Texas. I got it, and it was throwing an error code. I looked up the error code and soon realized what had happened. The guy likely tried to softmod it and failed in the process. I contacted him, and he gave me some story that it worked before he sent it and must have been damaged during shipping. I explained how the error code that was being displayed was caused by a failed softmod and wouldn't have been caused by being shipped, and he relented. He ended up refunding me like $20 or $25, which was what I told him a local shop would charge to fix it. I bought a duox2 modchip and fixed it myself for $5.

[Dragonman73]

Called paypal when I got home yesterday evening, they said that I had all of my ducks in a row for seller protection and they lifted the negative balance for me. Apparently the buyer filed a chargeback with their credit card with no warning or indication to paypal. They said they will have to deal with the sellers credit card company over this ....but I am good to go now.

[pbj]

Set up two Paypal accounts.  Your real one, and your hobby one.  Have all hobby transactions go through the hobby account.  Transfer any balance to your real account immediately.  That's going to prevent a lot of the problems you guys are having... better to lose a throwaway Paypal account than money.

[fallacy]

when it comes to eBay you only buy from someone with alot of reviews and 98% positive. Most big ebay sellers will make it right even if they have to lose money; as a seller you can not have reviews saying you sent someone a broken item and would not return it.

[mafiafan123]

It's such a headache these days my eBay account I've had since 2002 I would say sometime after 2010 issues started appearing more than once a year. Now in the last two years it's so bad I put as is on everything reserve the right to remove bids and put a restriction on buyers in the settings. Which sucks because new people that might want something lose out.

I basically take a picture of the item with the shipping label and if it's something electronic I'll take a video of packing it and putting in box with label and showing proof of pickup.

I hate scammers but now it's just ridiculous. I love all the fake bids and even fake emails saying payment received but if you open you'll notice it's spoofed or if you don't click the link check your actual account safely funds are not there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dragonman73]

Ok another eBay issue,

So I sold a pair of used Q-Logic speaker kick panels for a 4th gen camaro a few weeks ago. I put up detailed pics and the part number and a link to Q-logics page. Had $75 listed as the price + shipping. These sell for $219 new on their website.

My auctions are listed no refunds and I tried to list these as best as I can and to ask questions before buying.

Just got a return requested from ebay last night from that buyer......she said he had a 4th gen camaro convertible and they don't fit and she wants to return them....I don't really have a choice because she can flag them as not as described and can send them back anyway. So I can do it the easy way or the hard way.... I accepted the return as eBay specified and buyer pays return shipping.

Why even have a "no refund" option? That's what boggles me about eBay...

It's just $75 and honestly it would have came out better for the buyer to just keep them and re-sell themselves. Especially since they will be paying out $30 total in shipping after it's said and done. I'm not taking a hit on the shipping.

I tried to look on the Q-Logic website and it doesn't say anything about not fitting a convertible says it fits 93-02 cars, and since it is such an odd duck I would have know way of knowing either since 99% of the 93-02 camaro's on the road are sport coupes. Very few convertibles were made.

So now I am expecting the package back (buyer pays shipping) and I have to issue the $75 she paid when it is received.

[Raleigh]

Correct, there is no point in having a no return policy, I always have a 30 day return.  I would prefer to get the item back in good condition instead of the buyer potentially damaging the item to open a Not as Described case.  It sucks when there is a return but in my own experience they are not very common especially when you go through the detail of listing many good photos and information like you did.  Looking at my selling dashboard my return rate is 1.54%, 4 out of 260 in the last 12 months. 

As much as people complain about ebay, it is still a great place to buy and sell if you are smart about it, though my experience is only as a hobby and personally treat it like some form of fishing/gambling activity. 

[Dragonman73]

Yeah it defeats the purpose of a refund policy for sure, I was looking at my paypal and it looks like I am going to have to eat the $18 that it cost me to ship it to them too, I actually charged them less than that for shipping. Instead of a $75 refund I have to do the $75 + the shipping costs too

I just hope that they send this back exactly as I shipped it to them and they haven't cut into the panels or try to modify them in any way. I want to be able to re-sell them

Worst case they could send me back a box with a brick in it...but with a 750 feedback rating I wouldn't think they would do that to me

[Raleigh]

You may be able to just refund the $75 and not the original shipping.  As long as it is just a normal return and they didn't open a Not as Described case according to Ebay's policies (http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/return-process.html#shipping-charges) the refund would be "refund is the total purchase price, including item cost, sales tax and other charges, less: Original shipping (unless specified otherwise in your Return policy)" which since you didn't have a Return Policy so the default would be not to refund the original shipping.  With that much feedback I would assume that the buyer knows it was his error in lack of research so personally I would just refund the $75, if he makes a big deal about it I would weigh the pros and cons of just eating that or getting a neg, but you have no duty to refund the original shipping.  I always have free shipping so I eat the cost so I am not sure what it will prompt you to refund when you click refund on ebay, I'd be interested in that when you do.

[Dragonman73]

eBay sent me a form that they would like to return an item, the buyer had already messaged me prior to that so i knew it was coming. I agreed to the return but didn't see any option to for just purchase price, although I had assumed that it would have just been what they paid less any shipping.

Here's the kicker: Paypal has already withheld the funds, the total including shipping so i am in the negative now. I am not sure if they already refunded the buyer or waiting for confirmation of delivery to my address. As of right now I have no signs of any tracking en route back to me so i don't know if it's been shipped yet.

I won't get hit with any negatives, buyer already left me positive feedback last week and I did the same, then a day or so later I get this

[Dragonman73]

Well I went to my ebay and there was a spot to check returns....It shows this transaction and buyer shipped usps on sat and provided a tracking number. I clicked on details and it shows the spot where I can issue the 75 refund and there's a box to tick if I want to refund shipping too. It's unticked right now.

It says do not offer the refund until the package arrives and I inspect it...so maybe I have more control over this than I think ....package should be here in the morning

[Raleigh]

Yes, that's what I was guessing.  Since it seems that the buyer is taking responsibility for the error I would stick to the $75, I am guessing that they just don't ever sell so they just want what they can recoup back and understand they will be out the shipping costs.

[Dragonman73]

Yes, that's what I was guessing.  Since it seems that the buyer is taking responsibility for the error I would stick to the $75, I am guessing that they just don't ever sell so they just want what they can recoup back and understand they will be out the shipping costs.

Yeah, honestly for the low price I sold this for they would have been better off keeping and re-selling themselves on craigslist or something. There was enough room they could have simply marked it up a bit and would have made all their money back.

They def should have done their research first before buying. I knew it would fit standard 4th gen's because that's what it came off of. I didn't even think about convertibles because they only made very few of those and I don't own one. Even the Q-form website doesn't mention anything about convertibles for these panels.

I built a 1971 Camaro from a husk of a shell with tons of parts that didn't come on the car originally. I spent quite a bit of time browsing forums and researching parts for fitment. Even the aftermarket struts I put on my wifes HHR wasn't an impulse buy....I checked forums for best brands and known fitment before I pulled the trigger on the one's I bought.

When you own an obscure car like a 4th gen camaro convertible, check the internet first to see if anyone else has issues with certain parts fitting these cars. They admitted in their reply email they have a hard time finding parts that fit because of the cars design

 

[ChadTower]

That's the real problem with ebay now.  You shouldn't be able to 'retail return' a used item you bought at auction.  That's just stupid.  The item was as described and it didn't suit their specific needs.  That's not a good enough reason for returning something on a used goods purchase.   You don't bring stuff back to a yard sale, do you?

[Dragonman73]

That's the real problem with ebay now.  You shouldn't be able to 'retail return' a used item you bought at auction.  That's just stupid.  The item was as described and it just didn't suit their specific needs.  That's not a good enough reason for returning something on a used goods purchase.  It's just not.  You don't bring stuff back to a yard sale, do you?

I totally agree, if an item is described as best to the sellers ability and it is a used part it should be sold as is. Most eBay sellers are just reg folks trying to sell a few things they have laying around the shop. We can't afford to absorb the costs of multiple returns like a company like Wal-mart...but ebay has made it to hold your average person to that same standard.

[Mike A]

The buyer wins in almost every system. Without buyers you have no market. It is much easier to find sellers.

[ChadTower]

Well, the point here is that the platform always wins.  They don't care about buyers or sellers in reality.  They don't make their money on ebay.  They make it on Paypal.  The real money in our economy is not made with goods or services.  It's made by moving other people's money for them and taking a fee for doing so.  Ebay has no reason to care if either buyer or seller are happy so long as they used Paypal.

[dkersten]

It's like anything else today, if you are going to dabble, you are going to be dealing with the same issues that a full blown business deals with.

Thing is, if you sell 100 items on Ebay that are all legit, you probably won't have a single return.  The rate is pretty low under normal circumstances.  But it happens, and if it happens to someone who doesn't do thousands of transactions on ebay, then it can look like it is some kind of ridiculous situation that "someone" should fix.  When you end up with that perception, there are a couple choices of what to do about it.  You can complain about it, which won't really change a thing.  You can stop selling your used stuff online, but that's just silly talk.  Or you can find a different way to sell it...  But where?

There's always craigslist, but then there are a full set of DIFFERENT problems there.  No guarantees as a seller or buyer, sketchy transactions, and annoying emails from window shoppers.  Or you can find forums where potential customers hang out and post your stuff there.  Again, downsides, like severely limiting your market, and you still have the same problems with sending stuff to someone you don't know.  Or you can open your own store front and then you gotta pay rent, pay taxes, have a license, etc, and people will still bring stuff back. 

If there was a perfect way to sell stuff and never have risk of any kind, someone would have discovered it and everyone would be using it.  There isn't though, so you gotta work with what you have. 

Personally, I already shared my story of fighting a $2500 charge back and winning.  I know you can fight it and win.  I have sold stuff that people want to return, even though I put "no refunds, all sales final" on the listing.  And when it came down to it, I took care of the customer simply because I wanted to keep my reputation perfect in case I sell something else down the road.  I've been burned dozens of times by the shipping company, but I still use them because what else am I going to do?  I just accept that there is risk and use the best solution to sell my stuff. 

[Mike A]

Let's see Paypal collect a fee if nobody is buying anything. They need buyers. That is the whole point of eBay. Sellers are willing to pay for access to a large pool of buyers.

[dkersten]

Well, the point here is that the platform always wins.  They don't care about buyers or sellers in reality.  They don't make their money on ebay.  They make it on Paypal.  The real money in our economy is not made with goods or services.  It's made by moving other people's money for them and taking a fee for doing so.  Ebay has no reason to care if either buyer or seller are happy so long as they used Paypal.

Well, I would disagree with this.
First off, of course Ebay cares about their customers.  But when you have millions of customers, you pay attention to the big dogs, not the ones they make $2.50 off each year.  If what you experienced was a huge problem for an ebayer with 10k sales per month, trust me, it would get fixed.  But it isn't a problem for them.  They already calculated in the risk of problem customers, the risk of fighting scammers, and the high fees for selling. 
Yes, back when they first started out, it was thousands of customers like you who gave ebay the ability to get to where they are today.  But today you are irrelevant to them.  If you stop using ebay, nobody will even notice.  It won't hurt their profits.  In fact, if you have stuff to sell, quitting ebay is probably hurting you more than anyone else. 

Second, ebay makes 12% off every item sold.  Paypal makes upwards of 3% on every item bought.  Believe me, they care about ebay sales.  Sure, there are other ways Paypal is making money, and ebay wouldn't have bought it if they couldn't be profitable.  Paypal is a bank, and while you may feel that banks are all big evil corporations just trying to steal money from everyone, the fact is they are just a business that is important to the economy and chances are you use them to make money as well, albeit most likely indirectly.  But I can't help but ask why there is so much hate toward companies who make money?

[ChadTower]

I never indicated hate or anger or anything similar.  Just pragmatism.  You're projecting on that one.

[dkersten]

I never indicated hate or anger or anything similar.  Just pragmatism.  You're projecting on that one.

They don't care about buyers or sellers in reality. ... .Ebay has no reason to care if either buyer or seller are happy so long as they used Paypal.

Hate is the wrong word, but "hating" sure seems to fit...

Are you not suggesting that Ebay (and hence PayPal) are just preying on people with no regard for the satisfaction of their customers?

I don't understand where this kind of attitude comes from with any company.  I realize media portrays corporations and bankers as a bunch of fat cats in a room smoking cigars and drinking scotch while planning to bilk the common folk of all their money without any regard for the consequences.  It was funny a few decades ago, but now you have people who believe that is how things actually work, lol.

Don't get me wrong, I get pissed when something happens and I get screwed too.  I'm just saying, over time I learned that getting screwed selling something is just par for the course, nothing to do with Ebay or Paypal.  It happens to every business that sells products, even the wholesale business.  You can't escape it, all you can do is factor in the risk.
 Paypal does provide a protection service, but they aren't going to just pay both parties when there is a dispute.  They're going to investigate and if a credit card is involved, they will do mediation with the credit card company.  It isn't perfect, and sometimes when you are in the right, you lose.  Either way your money gets locked up for 90 days.  Blame the scammer though, not Paypal...

[Mike A]

Why are you telling Chad the meaning behind his own statement. He clarified it once for you already.

[yotsuya]

Why are you telling Chad the meaning behind his own statement. He clarified it once for you already.

That's just how we do things around here. :-)

[ChadTower]

Why are you telling Chad the meaning behind his own statement. He clarified it once for you already.

 


He's projecting his own ideas into it.  My point is that Ebay cares that the transaction happens and that the money changes hands.  They make their commission on the sale and the fee on the payment.  They have no compelling reason to care about the satisfaction of either buyer or seller.  They're just the middleman there same as a credit card or a bank.  The part he's projecting is the sense that this is some sort of predation on the part of Ebay.  It's not, it's just realism, they're a transaction clearinghouse and money movement engine.  The seller cares that the buyer is happy, the buyer cares that the buyer is happy, but Ebay only needs to care that the engine keeps running.

[dkersten]

He's projecting his own ideas into it. 

What am I projecting??  You spewed some BS about a company not caring about customer service when in fact that company is one of the most successful companies ever in history based solely on providing services the customers wanted.  And I am not supposed to infer some animosity toward the company?  I called ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---, and I quoted EXACTLY what you said to make me feel that way. 

My point is that Ebay cares that the transaction happens and that the money changes hands.  They make their commission on the sale and the fee on the payment.  They have no compelling reason to care about the satisfaction of either buyer or seller.  They're just the middleman there same as a credit card or a bank.  The part he's projecting is the sense that this is some sort of predation on the part of Ebay.  It's not, it's just realism, they're a transaction clearinghouse and money movement engine.  The seller cares that the buyer is happy, the buyer cares that the buyer is happy, but Ebay only needs to care that the engine keeps running.

If your statements earlier were so crystal clear and not open to interpretation, why did you need a whole paragraph clarifying it?

And the fact is, you are still wrong.  Specifically, this part of it:

They have no compelling reason to care about the satisfaction of either buyer or seller.

If you knew anything about business, you would know that a business cannot survive unless their customers are at the very least, satisfied, and preferably more than satisfied.  They have the biggest compelling reason possible:  if their customers are not satisfied, they will stop being customers, and without customers, the company will not survive. 

Look, You cannot deny that there are "haters" out there, people who selectively pick out the facts about an entity and apply them to justify how they feel about that entity while ignoring anything that would contradict them.  Your statement suggested you are one of them.  If I was wrong about including you with the others here, I'm sorry. 

[Mike A]

If you knew anything about business

You would not have made this statement.

one of the most successful companies ever in history

[pbj]

These rabid arguments about absolutely nothing are the lifeblood of BYOAC.

[Mike A]

I thought it was thread sniping.

[ChadTower]

I don't know that guy very well.  Is he always like that? 


pbj is right.  Saying that highly dissatisfies me but he is correct.

[yotsuya]

I don't know that guy very well.  Is he always like that? 

Verbosely so.