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Author Topic: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal  (Read 2424 times)

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Dragonman73

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Sold something on eBay on 5/1/17, buyer paid with paypal

I noticed the buyer name was Katherine F********* and the "ship to" was John P****** but that isn't anything out of the norm as I have seen husbands / wives, Kids / Parents with paypal accounts tied together.

The address was confirmed and paypal had the flag "ok to ship" so everything seemed on the up and up.

I ship them the next day and tie fedex tracking with the account as I usually do. They were delivered a few days later. Figured everything was good to go.

So here we are and it's 6/7/17, over a month later and I go to check my email this morning and see that I got one from paypal for an unauthorized chargeback??

Apparently Katherine ******** decided that she didn't make this charge and it was done without her authorization.

So now my account is in the negative $147 and I am waiting on Paypal to review this case. I provided tracking already so there is nothing else "I need to do" at this time.

I looked up Katherine F********** address online and John P********* is also listed at that address both are showing to be 66 or so years old. She also shows up as having the same last name as John in some searches. So the package WENT TO the correct address that is shown for both of them as listed by paypal AND what was found through a property search. Basically the person (s) purchased merchandise from me, actually received it to their address.

Best I can tell is maybe a crappy grandson used their account or heck maybe even John P****** used the account and decided to pull an unauthorized charge back to keep the stuff....who knows

But I get to see how much paypal protects the seller in these cases....I followed their guidelines so hopefully it works out. I def shipped to the address they said was "ok to ship to".
« Last Edit: June 07, 2017, 12:28:10 pm by Dragonman73 »

fallacy

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2017, 09:12:56 am »
I would like to know as well, you always hear how PayPal is a farce when it comes to actual security, like the TSA.

ChadTower

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2017, 09:41:31 am »



I gave up selling on ebay because of the fraud constantly going on.  Every other item would get submitted for a refund with various claims.  "Not as decribed" despite a dozen clear pictures.  "Did not arrive" even when it was delivery confirmed.  It seemed like most buyers would file claims just to see if you'd fail to respond properly and they'd win by default.  Meanwhile your funds are all tied up and you're still dealing with something you put into Ebay to be rid of in the first place.  It just wasn't worth it anymore unless the item is super rare or expensive.

Titchgamer

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2017, 11:21:48 am »
This exact thing happened to me years ago.

Sadly they found their favour even though I produced all the evidence available to prove it was not my mistake! [emoji35]

pbj

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2017, 12:15:08 pm »
The probability of a buyer/seller utilizing Ebay/Paypal feeling that they've been scammed is 100%.


GrizzlyThunder

Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2017, 12:21:01 pm »
That's sickening that people act this way. I love eBay and it makes my life much easier to find a rare item or a small part. I'm interested in hearing the result.


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Raleigh

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2017, 05:04:25 pm »
I still sell quite a bit on Ebay and have had my fair share of cases including Unauthorized charge.   My recommendation is to call and talk to someone, usually they look and see that you meet the requirements and remove any holds of money back to your account, I keep mine low so these put me in the negative and I let them know I am unable to print shipping labels with the negative balance due to the claim.  In all my cases they remove the hold and tell me to upload the tracking showing that I shipped to the address on file and that's it.  Chances are Paypal will lose the CC dispute but they will eat the loss as you followed the guidelines to be protected.  Be thankful they are scamming that way and not opening a case of "Not as Described" and lying about what was received, those are the ones that are difficult to win.

SlammedNiss

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 12:22:40 am »
I documented my last eBay buyer issue HERE. It worked out for me in the long run. Either he never filed a complaint, or he attempted to file a complaint and eBay make a snap judgement in my favor. Either way nothing ever came of his threats. I waited the std. 60 days they have to leave feedback then sent him the following snarky message.

Quote
I just remembered about your crazy accusations and apparent idle threats. What ever happened to you letting eBay decide? You finally realize you didn't have a case?

LOL!


God I hate eBay sometimes, but for me, it's a necessary evil for an extra income. Anyway, good luck and hope it works out for ya.
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ark_ader

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 01:42:53 am »
Well it happened to me and I was the buyer.  I bought a sega saturn off some guy on ebay.  It arrived well shipped but was DOA.  I contacted Paypal and opened a case after the seller ignored my emails for a week.  Sure enough I got my money back plus shipping charges back from paypal.  The seller said that the device was working and he started a case against me.  Sure enough paypal took the money out of my bank account without telling me.  So I have no sega saturn and down one hundred bucks. I also got a charge from my bank for the transaction.

That is why I do not buy on ebay anymore.  I use paypal for cinema tickets but not to a live body.

Sorry to hear of the trouble you had.  Better to make it a lesson learned.  These days it is not worth it.  Is this the same for Worldpay?
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

SlammedNiss

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 08:09:41 am »
Well it happened to me and I was the buyer.  I bought a sega saturn off some guy on ebay.  It arrived well shipped but was DOA.  I contacted Paypal and opened a case after the seller ignored my emails for a week.  Sure enough I got my money back plus shipping charges back from paypal.  The seller said that the device was working and he started a case against me.  Sure enough paypal took the money out of my bank account without telling me.  So I have no sega saturn and down one hundred bucks. I also got a charge from my bank for the transaction.

That is why I do not buy on ebay anymore.  I use paypal for cinema tickets but not to a live body.

Sorry to hear of the trouble you had.  Better to make it a lesson learned.  These days it is not worth it.  Is this the same for Worldpay?

Their "Payapl Protection" is pretty much hit or miss. It's almost impossible to predict what they'll do. You can be certain they'll side with you then they throw you a curve ball. I try really hard not to buy used electronics there, but sometimes it's your only choice. Something like a Saturn would be damn near impossible to find locally in my area so if I was in the market for one, eBay would probably be my only option.

I did buy a used OG Xbox several years back from a guy in Texas. I got it, and it was throwing an error code. I looked up the error code and soon realized what had happened. The guy likely tried to softmod it and failed in the process. I contacted him, and he gave me some story that it worked before he sent it and must have been damaged during shipping. I explained how the error code that was being displayed was caused by a failed softmod and wouldn't have been caused by being shipped, and he relented. He ended up refunding me like $20 or $25, which was what I told him a local shop would charge to fix it. I bought a duox2 modchip and fixed it myself for $5.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 03:57:26 pm by SlammedNiss »
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Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 08:53:13 am »
Called paypal when I got home yesterday evening, they said that I had all of my ducks in a row for seller protection and they lifted the negative balance for me. Apparently the buyer filed a chargeback with their credit card with no warning or indication to paypal. They said they will have to deal with the sellers credit card company over this ....but I am good to go now.

pbj

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 10:13:19 am »
Set up two Paypal accounts.  Your real one, and your hobby one.  Have all hobby transactions go through the hobby account.  Transfer any balance to your real account immediately.  That's going to prevent a lot of the problems you guys are having... better to lose a throwaway Paypal account than money.


fallacy

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 05:32:17 pm »
when it comes to eBay you only buy from someone with alot of reviews and 98% positive. Most big ebay sellers will make it right even if they have to lose money; as a seller you can not have reviews saying you sent someone a broken item and would not return it.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2017, 07:19:26 pm »
It's such a headache these days my eBay account I've had since 2002 I would say sometime after 2010 issues started appearing more than once a year. Now in the last two years it's so bad I put as is on everything reserve the right to remove bids and put a restriction on buyers in the settings. Which sucks because new people that might want something lose out.

I basically take a picture of the item with the shipping label and if it's something electronic I'll take a video of packing it and putting in box with label and showing proof of pickup.

I hate scammers but now it's just ridiculous. I love all the fake bids and even fake emails saying payment received but if you open you'll notice it's spoofed or if you don't click the link check your actual account safely funds are not there.


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Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2017, 07:39:49 pm »
Ok another eBay issue,

So I sold a pair of used Q-Logic speaker kick panels for a 4th gen camaro a few weeks ago. I put up detailed pics and the part number and a link to Q-logics page. Had $75 listed as the price + shipping. These sell for $219 new on their website.

My auctions are listed no refunds and I tried to list these as best as I can and to ask questions before buying.

Just got a return requested from ebay last night from that buyer......she said he had a 4th gen camaro convertible and they don't fit and she wants to return them....I don't really have a choice because she can flag them as not as described and can send them back anyway. So I can do it the easy way or the hard way.... I accepted the return as eBay specified and buyer pays return shipping.

Why even have a "no refund" option? That's what boggles me about eBay...

It's just $75 and honestly it would have came out better for the buyer to just keep them and re-sell themselves. Especially since they will be paying out $30 total in shipping after it's said and done. I'm not taking a hit on the shipping.

I tried to look on the Q-Logic website and it doesn't say anything about not fitting a convertible says it fits 93-02 cars, and since it is such an odd duck I would have know way of knowing either since 99% of the 93-02 camaro's on the road are sport coupes. Very few convertibles were made.

So now I am expecting the package back (buyer pays shipping) and I have to issue the $75 she paid when it is received.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2017, 07:41:32 pm by Dragonman73 »

Raleigh

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2017, 11:13:49 am »
Correct, there is no point in having a no return policy, I always have a 30 day return.  I would prefer to get the item back in good condition instead of the buyer potentially damaging the item to open a Not as Described case.  It sucks when there is a return but in my own experience they are not very common especially when you go through the detail of listing many good photos and information like you did.  Looking at my selling dashboard my return rate is 1.54%, 4 out of 260 in the last 12 months. 

As much as people complain about ebay, it is still a great place to buy and sell if you are smart about it, though my experience is only as a hobby and personally treat it like some form of fishing/gambling activity. 

Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2017, 11:19:26 am »
Yeah it defeats the purpose of a refund policy for sure, I was looking at my paypal and it looks like I am going to have to eat the $18 that it cost me to ship it to them too, I actually charged them less than that for shipping. Instead of a $75 refund I have to do the $75 + the shipping costs too

I just hope that they send this back exactly as I shipped it to them and they haven't cut into the panels or try to modify them in any way. I want to be able to re-sell them

Worst case they could send me back a box with a brick in it...but with a 750 feedback rating I wouldn't think they would do that to me

Raleigh

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2017, 11:38:45 am »
You may be able to just refund the $75 and not the original shipping.  As long as it is just a normal return and they didn't open a Not as Described case according to Ebay's policies (http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/return-process.html#shipping-charges) the refund would be "refund is the total purchase price, including item cost, sales tax and other charges, less: Original shipping (unless specified otherwise in your Return policy)" which since you didn't have a Return Policy so the default would be not to refund the original shipping.  With that much feedback I would assume that the buyer knows it was his error in lack of research so personally I would just refund the $75, if he makes a big deal about it I would weigh the pros and cons of just eating that or getting a neg, but you have no duty to refund the original shipping.  I always have free shipping so I eat the cost so I am not sure what it will prompt you to refund when you click refund on ebay, I'd be interested in that when you do.

Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2017, 11:46:13 am »
eBay sent me a form that they would like to return an item, the buyer had already messaged me prior to that so i knew it was coming. I agreed to the return but didn't see any option to for just purchase price, although I had assumed that it would have just been what they paid less any shipping.

Here's the kicker: Paypal has already withheld the funds, the total including shipping so i am in the negative now. I am not sure if they already refunded the buyer or waiting for confirmation of delivery to my address. As of right now I have no signs of any tracking en route back to me so i don't know if it's been shipped yet.

I won't get hit with any negatives, buyer already left me positive feedback last week and I did the same, then a day or so later I get this

Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2017, 12:02:43 pm »
Well I went to my ebay and there was a spot to check returns....It shows this transaction and buyer shipped usps on sat and provided a tracking number. I clicked on details and it shows the spot where I can issue the 75 refund and there's a box to tick if I want to refund shipping too. It's unticked right now.

It says do not offer the refund until the package arrives and I inspect it...so maybe I have more control over this than I think ....package should be here in the morning
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 12:25:23 pm by Dragonman73 »

Raleigh

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2017, 12:10:44 pm »
Yes, that's what I was guessing.  Since it seems that the buyer is taking responsibility for the error I would stick to the $75, I am guessing that they just don't ever sell so they just want what they can recoup back and understand they will be out the shipping costs.

Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2017, 12:33:49 pm »
Yes, that's what I was guessing.  Since it seems that the buyer is taking responsibility for the error I would stick to the $75, I am guessing that they just don't ever sell so they just want what they can recoup back and understand they will be out the shipping costs.

Yeah, honestly for the low price I sold this for they would have been better off keeping and re-selling themselves on craigslist or something. There was enough room they could have simply marked it up a bit and would have made all their money back.

They def should have done their research first before buying. I knew it would fit standard 4th gen's because that's what it came off of. I didn't even think about convertibles because they only made very few of those and I don't own one. Even the Q-form website doesn't mention anything about convertibles for these panels.

I built a 1971 Camaro from a husk of a shell with tons of parts that didn't come on the car originally. I spent quite a bit of time browsing forums and researching parts for fitment. Even the aftermarket struts I put on my wifes HHR wasn't an impulse buy....I checked forums for best brands and known fitment before I pulled the trigger on the one's I bought.

When you own an obscure car like a 4th gen camaro convertible, check the internet first to see if anyone else has issues with certain parts fitting these cars. They admitted in their reply email they have a hard time finding parts that fit because of the cars design

 

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2017, 12:45:28 pm »



That's the real problem with ebay now.  You shouldn't be able to 'retail return' a used item you bought at auction.  That's just stupid.  The item was as described and it didn't suit their specific needs.  That's not a good enough reason for returning something on a used goods purchase.   You don't bring stuff back to a yard sale, do you?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2017, 12:47:54 pm by ChadTower »

Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2017, 12:51:37 pm »



That's the real problem with ebay now.  You shouldn't be able to 'retail return' a used item you bought at auction.  That's just stupid.  The item was as described and it just didn't suit their specific needs.  That's not a good enough reason for returning something on a used goods purchase.  It's just not.  You don't bring stuff back to a yard sale, do you?


I totally agree, if an item is described as best to the sellers ability and it is a used part it should be sold as is. Most eBay sellers are just reg folks trying to sell a few things they have laying around the shop. We can't afford to absorb the costs of multiple returns like a company like Wal-mart...but ebay has made it to hold your average person to that same standard.




Mike A

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2017, 01:59:44 pm »
The buyer wins in almost every system. Without buyers you have no market. It is much easier to find sellers.

ChadTower

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2017, 02:10:34 pm »



Well, the point here is that the platform always wins.  They don't care about buyers or sellers in reality.  They don't make their money on ebay.  They make it on Paypal.  The real money in our economy is not made with goods or services.  It's made by moving other people's money for them and taking a fee for doing so.  Ebay has no reason to care if either buyer or seller are happy so long as they used Paypal.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2017, 02:22:45 pm »
It's like anything else today, if you are going to dabble, you are going to be dealing with the same issues that a full blown business deals with.

Thing is, if you sell 100 items on Ebay that are all legit, you probably won't have a single return.  The rate is pretty low under normal circumstances.  But it happens, and if it happens to someone who doesn't do thousands of transactions on ebay, then it can look like it is some kind of ridiculous situation that "someone" should fix.  When you end up with that perception, there are a couple choices of what to do about it.  You can complain about it, which won't really change a thing.  You can stop selling your used stuff online, but that's just silly talk.  Or you can find a different way to sell it...  But where?

There's always craigslist, but then there are a full set of DIFFERENT problems there.  No guarantees as a seller or buyer, sketchy transactions, and annoying emails from window shoppers.  Or you can find forums where potential customers hang out and post your stuff there.  Again, downsides, like severely limiting your market, and you still have the same problems with sending stuff to someone you don't know.  Or you can open your own store front and then you gotta pay rent, pay taxes, have a license, etc, and people will still bring stuff back. 

If there was a perfect way to sell stuff and never have risk of any kind, someone would have discovered it and everyone would be using it.  There isn't though, so you gotta work with what you have. 

Personally, I already shared my story of fighting a $2500 charge back and winning.  I know you can fight it and win.  I have sold stuff that people want to return, even though I put "no refunds, all sales final" on the listing.  And when it came down to it, I took care of the customer simply because I wanted to keep my reputation perfect in case I sell something else down the road.  I've been burned dozens of times by the shipping company, but I still use them because what else am I going to do?  I just accept that there is risk and use the best solution to sell my stuff. 

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2017, 02:36:55 pm »
Let's see Paypal collect a fee if nobody is buying anything. They need buyers. That is the whole point of eBay. Sellers are willing to pay for access to a large pool of buyers.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2017, 02:43:17 pm »
Well, the point here is that the platform always wins.  They don't care about buyers or sellers in reality.  They don't make their money on ebay.  They make it on Paypal.  The real money in our economy is not made with goods or services.  It's made by moving other people's money for them and taking a fee for doing so.  Ebay has no reason to care if either buyer or seller are happy so long as they used Paypal.
Well, I would disagree with this.
First off, of course Ebay cares about their customers.  But when you have millions of customers, you pay attention to the big dogs, not the ones they make $2.50 off each year.  If what you experienced was a huge problem for an ebayer with 10k sales per month, trust me, it would get fixed.  But it isn't a problem for them.  They already calculated in the risk of problem customers, the risk of fighting scammers, and the high fees for selling. 
Yes, back when they first started out, it was thousands of customers like you who gave ebay the ability to get to where they are today.  But today you are irrelevant to them.  If you stop using ebay, nobody will even notice.  It won't hurt their profits.  In fact, if you have stuff to sell, quitting ebay is probably hurting you more than anyone else. 

Second, ebay makes 12% off every item sold.  Paypal makes upwards of 3% on every item bought.  Believe me, they care about ebay sales.  Sure, there are other ways Paypal is making money, and ebay wouldn't have bought it if they couldn't be profitable.  Paypal is a bank, and while you may feel that banks are all big evil corporations just trying to steal money from everyone, the fact is they are just a business that is important to the economy and chances are you use them to make money as well, albeit most likely indirectly.  But I can't help but ask why there is so much hate toward companies who make money?

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2017, 02:59:13 pm »



I never indicated hate or anger or anything similar.  Just pragmatism.  You're projecting on that one.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #30 on: June 12, 2017, 06:59:50 pm »
I never indicated hate or anger or anything similar.  Just pragmatism.  You're projecting on that one.
Quote from: ChadTower
They don't care about buyers or sellers in reality. ... .Ebay has no reason to care if either buyer or seller are happy so long as they used Paypal.
Hate is the wrong word, but "hating" sure seems to fit...

Are you not suggesting that Ebay (and hence PayPal) are just preying on people with no regard for the satisfaction of their customers?

I don't understand where this kind of attitude comes from with any company.  I realize media portrays corporations and bankers as a bunch of fat cats in a room smoking cigars and drinking scotch while planning to bilk the common folk of all their money without any regard for the consequences.  It was funny a few decades ago, but now you have people who believe that is how things actually work, lol.

Don't get me wrong, I get pissed when something happens and I get screwed too.  I'm just saying, over time I learned that getting screwed selling something is just par for the course, nothing to do with Ebay or Paypal.  It happens to every business that sells products, even the wholesale business.  You can't escape it, all you can do is factor in the risk.
 Paypal does provide a protection service, but they aren't going to just pay both parties when there is a dispute.  They're going to investigate and if a credit card is involved, they will do mediation with the credit card company.  It isn't perfect, and sometimes when you are in the right, you lose.  Either way your money gets locked up for 90 days.  Blame the scammer though, not Paypal...

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #31 on: June 12, 2017, 07:09:38 pm »
Why are you telling Chad the meaning behind his own statement. He clarified it once for you already.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #32 on: June 12, 2017, 09:17:47 pm »
Why are you telling Chad the meaning behind his own statement. He clarified it once for you already.
That's just how we do things around here. :-)
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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2017, 12:32:51 pm »
Why are you telling Chad the meaning behind his own statement. He clarified it once for you already.




 :laugh2:


He's projecting his own ideas into it.  My point is that Ebay cares that the transaction happens and that the money changes hands.  They make their commission on the sale and the fee on the payment.  They have no compelling reason to care about the satisfaction of either buyer or seller.  They're just the middleman there same as a credit card or a bank.  The part he's projecting is the sense that this is some sort of predation on the part of Ebay.  It's not, it's just realism, they're a transaction clearinghouse and money movement engine.  The seller cares that the buyer is happy, the buyer cares that the buyer is happy, but Ebay only needs to care that the engine keeps running.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2017, 03:53:43 pm »
He's projecting his own ideas into it. 
What am I projecting??  You spewed some BS about a company not caring about customer service when in fact that company is one of the most successful companies ever in history based solely on providing services the customers wanted.  And I am not supposed to infer some animosity toward the company?  I called ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---, and I quoted EXACTLY what you said to make me feel that way. 

Quote
My point is that Ebay cares that the transaction happens and that the money changes hands.  They make their commission on the sale and the fee on the payment.  They have no compelling reason to care about the satisfaction of either buyer or seller.  They're just the middleman there same as a credit card or a bank.  The part he's projecting is the sense that this is some sort of predation on the part of Ebay.  It's not, it's just realism, they're a transaction clearinghouse and money movement engine.  The seller cares that the buyer is happy, the buyer cares that the buyer is happy, but Ebay only needs to care that the engine keeps running.
If your statements earlier were so crystal clear and not open to interpretation, why did you need a whole paragraph clarifying it?

And the fact is, you are still wrong.  Specifically, this part of it:
Quote
They have no compelling reason to care about the satisfaction of either buyer or seller.
If you knew anything about business, you would know that a business cannot survive unless their customers are at the very least, satisfied, and preferably more than satisfied.  They have the biggest compelling reason possible:  if their customers are not satisfied, they will stop being customers, and without customers, the company will not survive. 

Look, You cannot deny that there are "haters" out there, people who selectively pick out the facts about an entity and apply them to justify how they feel about that entity while ignoring anything that would contradict them.  Your statement suggested you are one of them.  If I was wrong about including you with the others here, I'm sorry. 

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2017, 04:25:42 pm »
Quote
If you knew anything about business

You would not have made this statement.
Quote
one of the most successful companies ever in history

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2017, 05:25:40 pm »
These rabid arguments about absolutely nothing are the lifeblood of BYOAC.


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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2017, 05:30:01 pm »
I thought it was thread sniping.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2017, 05:56:26 pm »



I don't know that guy very well.  Is he always like that? 


pbj is right.  Saying that highly dissatisfies me but he is correct.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #39 on: June 13, 2017, 09:07:21 pm »



I don't know that guy very well.  Is he always like that? 


Verbosely so.
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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2017, 09:24:41 pm »
These rabid arguments about absolutely nothing are the lifeblood of BYOAC.

I whole-heartedly disagree with this statement.  Now let us commence with the thread derailment. 

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2017, 09:52:37 am »



I want coffee but am too lazy to go downstairs and buy some.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2017, 12:53:09 am »
Now I have another one. Sold a brand new Spectre Air filter a few days ago and the buyer got it today.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/192196992790?ssPageName=STRK:MESOX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1559.l2649

They initiated a return request on this -

Spectre Universal Air Filter New HPR9881B
Item ID: 192196992790
Order ID: --------------
Buyer email:------------
Sale price: $32.00
Sale date: Jun-11-17 16:21:22 PDT
Buyer ID: -----------------
Return ID: -----------------
Return opened: Jun-14-17 20:45:37 PDT
Return shipping: seller pays
Return reason: Doesn't seem authentic
Comments: IT to much big for my car.

^ It seems like this jackass bought the air cleaner without doing any research. I listed the part number in the auction and took a photo of the side of the box showing the part number and physical size.

He has 15 feedback and I had a feeling this was going to be trouble. He filed a "not as described" claim on this admitting it was too big for his car and wants a full refund and me pay shipping to get it back....

I figure I will have to take a hit on this one and not giving the refund willingly, even though I provided pictures and described it as best as I possibly could in the listing.

If they pull the money from me it's only $32

Sad thing is I wasn't going to list it as it wasn't going to be a money maker, but I figured someone else could have used it. Screwed myself on this one.

SlammedNiss

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2017, 02:30:06 am »
Sometimes ya gotta stand your ground. Get him to explain HOW it was "not as described" in your correspondence. If his only retort is that it didn't fit his car, I don't see where he has a case as you sold it as being a "universal" fit and not specific to any particular vehicle. In the meantime, take down ALL your auctions from eBay and take a vacation because it seems you're getting bent over right and left.

Edit:

n/m. I see he said it didn't seem authentic. Which means he's fishing to excuses to return it. Definitely bring that up to eBay re: his comment that "IT to much big for my car" and that that's only an excuse because he didn't check to see if it would fit his car prior to purchase.  Good luck with this one...
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 02:34:01 am by SlammedNiss »
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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2017, 04:41:58 am »
If you are going to use eBay for business, then you have to act like you are in business. You need to factor returns into your business plan. If you do not have a business plan, you need to stop selling stuff until you have one. My company ships products by truck and by UPS. We take back returns every week. We don't love it but we have it built into our profit projections. EBay wasn't really meant for this. It was intended to be used to sell left over junk you had laying around in your house. It's like an internet garage sale. It evolved into a mail order business. eBay and PayPal take too much off of the top for a business to profit efficiently.

Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2017, 06:58:17 am »
If you are going to use eBay for business, then you have to act like you are in business. You need to factor returns into your business plan. If you do not have a business plan, you need to stop selling stuff until you have one. My company ships products by truck and by UPS. We take back returns every week. We don't love it but we have it built into our profit projections. EBay wasn't really meant for this. It was intended to be used to sell left over junk you had laying around in your house. It's like an internet garage sale. It evolved into a mail order business. eBay and PayPal take too much off of the top for a business to profit efficiently.

It's a double edge sword here, I don't sell enough stuff to be classified as a "business".

it's like an insurance company, the rates go down the more people that buy in to it and they can afford to take individual losses here and there. I can't compete with power sellers that sell hundreds of thousands a month, buying merchandise at a low price and selling at a mark up.

These are the ones that can factor in returns / chargebacks by writing off every 11th item of every ten items sold.

I'm left over from the early days of ebay where your average guy will clean out his garage and list stuff...but apparently that business model is long gone with companies like Jegs and Chinese companies jumping in the mix. I've been on eBay since 2001 as a buyer and a seller and this is the first time I have been hit three times in a week like this over issues I had no control over.

It looks like I am going to have to quit selling there as having three issues in a week is a bit much, it's either going to break me mentally or financially.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2017, 07:08:10 am »
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. If you are low volume you may not be able to charge enough to recoup losses from returns.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2017, 07:10:20 am »
Sometimes ya gotta stand your ground. Get him to explain HOW it was "not as described" in your correspondence. If his only retort is that it didn't fit his car, I don't see where he has a case as you sold it as being a "universal" fit and not specific to any particular vehicle. In the meantime, take down ALL your auctions from eBay and take a vacation because it seems you're getting bent over right and left.

Edit:

n/m. I see he said it didn't seem authentic. Which means he's fishing to excuses to return it. Definitely bring that up to eBay re: his comment that "IT to much big for my car" and that that's only an excuse because he didn't check to see if it would fit his car prior to purchase.  Good luck with this one...

Yeah on this one I am going to stand my ground and not willingly give the refund.

For one I am not going to pay shipping 2x because he couldn't do research before buying the merchandise, part number was in the listing and the size and specs was on the label in the pic

plus since it wasn't a lot of money I get to test out who's side eBay takes in this. A person who has been a member since 2001 as both a seller and a buyer. With a outstanding seller rating or a guy who joined last year and has only a 15 feedback rating as a buyer...spaced out apart.

Like you said, he's fishing for excuses to return it and pulling it out of his ass. And wants me to take the hit on the shipping. Personally that's abusing the system, doesn't make it right but he is.

Yeah your right I need to take a vacation from ebay for a bit


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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2017, 09:10:07 am »



There is also the thought that you could end up losing a lot more here if you waste time fighting over an item that wasn't going to make anything anyway.  What is your time worth?

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #49 on: June 15, 2017, 09:30:40 am »
Well not letting a buyer take advantage of me at my expense is worth more to me than my time.

If I am forced by eBay to give him a refund, then so be it. But I won't encourage negligent buyer behavior by issuing a full refund simply because. And do you really think this buyer is going to take the time to print a label, slap it on that box and mail it back to me? I didn't have that option.....all eBay gave me as choices in the claim was:

1. Full Refund (seller pays shipping)

2. Partial Refund

3. Message the buyer

They want to leave it up to me to sort out how I was getting it back

The terms were stated and implied in my listing - No returns. I listed the item as described and did what I was supposed to, as well as shipping quickly and packing well. I shipped the buyer exactly what I had listed. It was listed by part number and I didn't say it fit specific vehicles as this was a universal filter.  Nothing wrong with the merchandise and buyer admitted to not fitting his car. 

Even though this was listed as new, I listed it at a lower cost than competing ebay sellers such as Jegs and A1 Auto. These sellers have a return policy because they sell these items in large quantities. I just had one. If the buyer wanted that "no questions asked" return guarantee then they should have went with the bigger companies and paid 20% more for the product.

I've noticed a trend on eBay that the number of seller negatives increase in direct correlation with buyer feedback and cost of item. For example the lower the cost of the item and feedback the buyer has...the chance of them leaving a negative on the buyer increases.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 09:40:51 am by Dragonman73 »

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2017, 11:05:23 am »
Perhaps, some day, we'll be able to handle online transactions with VR.  All it takes is you plebes dropping $2,000 on hardware to make it a reality.


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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2017, 12:15:56 pm »
The VR thread is spreading everywhere. Somebody make it stop.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2017, 12:42:27 pm »
Perhaps, some day, we'll be able to handle online transactions with VR.  All it takes is you plebes dropping $2,000 on hardware to make it a reality.

Don't cross the threads, bro. You'll have Dave y Chaddles talking so much it'll break the server again.
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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2017, 12:52:14 pm »
Virtual insanity is what we're livin' in.... yeah....


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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2017, 01:20:58 pm »
Quote
If you knew anything about business

You would not have made this statement.
Quote
one of the most successful companies ever in history
Yet they made more than Amazon last year by more than double (and that is par for the course).  And they don't produce anything.  And for every dollar in revenue, nearly 80% is profit.  There are only a handful of companies in history that can claim that kind of success. 

Furthermore, their revenue is almost 100% based on customers using their services, and hence their success is based on customers being happy enough to keep doing business and NOT going to the competitors.  That doesn't happen when the company doesn't care about customer service, and it sure as hell doesn't happen when a company completely ignores customers.  To say anything otherwise is complete absurdity.

But what do I know?  Of course ebay is the big evil corporation that is only looking to screw as many people as they can with policies that are only in place to entice unsuspecting customers into trusting them before stealing all their money, and their success as a company is only due to their predatory practices.  Much better to just rely on a garage sale to sell your old crap.


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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2017, 02:26:23 pm »
Gross profit is not the whole picture by a long shot. Look at their revenue compared to Amazon. eBay 9 billion. Amazon 136 billion. Walmart is something like 500 billion. These companies are not seeking high profit margins. It would interfere with their growth and acquisition strategies.


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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2017, 07:11:07 pm »
The VR thread is spreading everywhere. Somebody make it stop.


During CES 2015 you had to really work hard to miss all the VR offerings.  Nearly all the attendees had a VR of some sort.  And no antiseptic wipes in sight.  The colds and itchies you could catch..... :o
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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #57 on: June 19, 2017, 09:12:19 am »



I totally got pink eye from the Scott Baio VR demo.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #58 on: June 19, 2017, 02:13:38 pm »
Well not letting a buyer take advantage of me at my expense is worth more to me than my time.

If I am forced by eBay to give him a refund, then so be it. But I won't encourage negligent buyer behavior by issuing a full refund simply because. And do you really think this buyer is going to take the time to print a label, slap it on that box and mail it back to me? I didn't have that option.....all eBay gave me as choices in the claim was:

1. Full Refund (seller pays shipping)

2. Partial Refund

3. Message the buyer

They want to leave it up to me to sort out how I was getting it back

The terms were stated and implied in my listing - No returns. I listed the item as described and did what I was supposed to, as well as shipping quickly and packing well. I shipped the buyer exactly what I had listed. It was listed by part number and I didn't say it fit specific vehicles as this was a universal filter.  Nothing wrong with the merchandise and buyer admitted to not fitting his car. 

Even though this was listed as new, I listed it at a lower cost than competing ebay sellers such as Jegs and A1 Auto. These sellers have a return policy because they sell these items in large quantities. I just had one. If the buyer wanted that "no questions asked" return guarantee then they should have went with the bigger companies and paid 20% more for the product.

I've noticed a trend on eBay that the number of seller negatives increase in direct correlation with buyer feedback and cost of item. For example the lower the cost of the item and feedback the buyer has...the chance of them leaving a negative on the buyer increases.

any new updates on the air filter buyer?
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Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #59 on: June 19, 2017, 02:56:54 pm »
Well not letting a buyer take advantage of me at my expense is worth more to me than my time.

If I am forced by eBay to give him a refund, then so be it. But I won't encourage negligent buyer behavior by issuing a full refund simply because. And do you really think this buyer is going to take the time to print a label, slap it on that box and mail it back to me? I didn't have that option.....all eBay gave me as choices in the claim was:

1. Full Refund (seller pays shipping)

2. Partial Refund

3. Message the buyer

They want to leave it up to me to sort out how I was getting it back

The terms were stated and implied in my listing - No returns. I listed the item as described and did what I was supposed to, as well as shipping quickly and packing well. I shipped the buyer exactly what I had listed. It was listed by part number and I didn't say it fit specific vehicles as this was a universal filter.  Nothing wrong with the merchandise and buyer admitted to not fitting his car. 

Even though this was listed as new, I listed it at a lower cost than competing ebay sellers such as Jegs and A1 Auto. These sellers have a return policy because they sell these items in large quantities. I just had one. If the buyer wanted that "no questions asked" return guarantee then they should have went with the bigger companies and paid 20% more for the product.

I've noticed a trend on eBay that the number of seller negatives increase in direct correlation with buyer feedback and cost of item. For example the lower the cost of the item and feedback the buyer has...the chance of them leaving a negative on the buyer increases.

any new updates on the air filter buyer?

Called eBay yesterday and they said that the buyer has never contacted them further or replied to their emails. Today or tomorrow is when they are going to review it (three days had to go by) and they told me my listing was accurate and this was a clear case of buyers remorse.

They wanted me to send one more email asking why the filter didn't seem authentic and why it was too big for their car...basically reiterating the stuff listed in the description, like the size and part number.

This is supposed to show eBay I am doing what I am doing something and proving my case. That this was as described, I provided plenty of info and that it was listed as no returns.

I'll find out more when they rule and close the case in the next day or so.

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2017, 10:38:53 am »


any new updates on the air filter buyer?

Got a email from eBay this morning telling me I still have a buyer claim pending, when I clicked on the think this time I had an 4th option to message eBay. After I clicked that I had an option to say I don't agree with the return, and a comments field. I restated that did my part as a seller and described the item accurately and as a seller I shouldn't have to pay shipping 2x's and eat the cost of the transaction because the buyer said it didn't fit his car. This was a universal part and he had to verify fitment before the purchase based on the description and item number in my auction.

I clicked sent....and just a few minutes ago I noticed it was closed and paypal released my money, worked in my favor.


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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #61 on: June 21, 2017, 02:56:47 pm »
......just a few minutes ago I noticed it was closed and paypal released my money, worked in my favor.

Nice to see one work out in the seller's favor!!
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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #62 on: June 21, 2017, 03:37:54 pm »
Gross profit is not the whole picture by a long shot. Look at their revenue compared to Amazon. eBay 9 billion. Amazon 136 billion. Walmart is something like 500 billion. These companies are not seeking high profit margins. It would interfere with their growth and acquisition strategies.
Yes, I will concede that profit does not equal success.  But neither does size.  Nor does revenue.  It is the relationship of size, revenue, gross profit, and overhead, that leads to determining the success of the company.  EBay is not a big company, but you can't find a company their size that is more profitable.  That 6+ billion eBay made last year is NET profit, not GROSS.  Amazon had to make 136 Billion in revenue to make LESS net profit.  I didn't say eBay was one of the biggest companies out there, I said they were one of the most successful.  Name one other company that can do 9 billion in revenue and NET 6 billion in profit.  When you can pull billions in profit with almost no overhead, you are extremely successful.

Amazon provides similar services to eBay, and is also an incredibly successful company in different ways as well, which is why I compare it.  Could Amazon survive losing that part of their business?  Sure, they are huge and have many other (albeit less profitable) revenue streams as well as tons of assets.  Could eBay survive losing that part of their business?  Hell no.  It is their ENTIRE business.  Paypal is just a relatively small bank that gets most of it's business from the eBay transactions, and without those eBay transactions, there is just a small bank that doesn't have much else to offer.  Bottom line: eBay is not big enough to treat their customers as if they are irrelevant, as was suggested.

dkersten

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #63 on: June 21, 2017, 03:42:08 pm »
....and just a few minutes ago I noticed it was closed and paypal released my money, worked in my favor.
That's good to hear.  Sounds like they are paying attention to the customers after all..

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2017, 08:22:40 am »
beginning to think these speaker kick panels I got back and gave the eBay buyer a refund are cursed

I got them back safe and sound so I threw a couple of ads up on facebook groups.

The first one to reply acted interested, we went back and forth and I sent him my paypal.

Thinking he was ready to buy them, he replied back and asked if I could hold them for a week until he got paid....I said yeah no prob (normally don't do that)

A day later someone else that lived close by message and said he was coming to buy them, before I could reply he was calling my phone through some faceboook messaging system

I replied and said I agreed to hold them for someone else until Friday so I wanted to give them a chance first. He said ok.

He then went to the post and told that first person if they didn't buy them he was.....really aggressive like.

I kid you not, over the next four-five days he messaged me three time if the guy bought them yet, he wanted to get them while he had the money. The third time I said it wasn't Friday yet.  ???

So Friday roles around and the first person pays as agreed via paypal, I send him tracking and said I was dropping them off at fedex kinkos 1st thing sat morning.

I drop them off, get my proof of receipt and they are now in transit......last night I get a frantic message from the buyer asking why they haven't been shipped yet? Kind of rude.

I said they have, pulled the tracking up and sent him the URL. It's actually being delivered today, was in the next town over last night.

Sent him a picture of the receipt as well

Apparently he used the tracking number I gave him on his phone, and the fedex app wasn't showing updates, other than the fact I made the label.

But it was updated and correct in a web browser.....not once did the guy apologize....my guess is he has been checking the tracking since Monday and Tuesday and got himself worked up and responded to me like I was trying to scam him or something. But still no apology for overreacting.









« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 08:29:56 am by Dragonman73 »

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2017, 09:02:54 am »
Overreactions abound.


Dragonman73

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2017, 09:09:59 am »
Yeah your gonna need to chill out

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2017, 02:52:04 pm »
Ebay is one of those things where you had better be handy if you want to use it.  Sellers misrepresent condition a LOT.  Unless it's unfixable junk, I rarely file a claim against a seller.  I usually get very good deals, and expect to have to do some handy work.  But, I DO make good use of their feedback system if an item is grossly misrepresented.

Case in point:  I just received a knife sharpener for a friend who just started as a meat cutter at the local grocery store.  He asked me to find him a sharpener like the one I had been using for him in my kitchen, and I did.  It was a very good price, and included priority shipping.  The seller had ~41000 transactions, and a 99.8% positive rating.   It played out not well.  First, the package arrived very quickly, but $13 postage due because there was no postage on the package at all.  Told the PO to return to sender, and it was sent out again quickly.  When it arrived the second time, I unpacked it and found that the unit was obviously dropped onto a hard floor from countertop height onto the foot recess, causing a large part of the bottom to be broken out and broke a part of the inside, which was rattling around.  Every part of the unit was shown in the photographs EXCEPT the section which was broken, and the seller described the condition as "It is Used Condition showing some light normal use."

Because the price was so low after his shipping costs, and because I was able to verify that the unit was functional, I just got out the screwdriver and gorilla glue and went at it.  I did, however, leave a neutral feedback, and noted the issues as accurately as possible in the limited space.

I almost never return items.  A fixable item in the hand, at a very low price, is always better than nothing.  The rest of the time, Paypal is usually very good.  And when they aren't, I'll chalk it up to a "gambling" loss at the "ebay casino", and factor it against the times I've done better than most would imagine possible.  But I still make sure to leave an honest, negative feedback.

Sellers and buyers alike are often guilty of bad behavior, and in my experience, the number of positive feedbacks provides minimal insurance that you won't get the pointy end of the stick.  If more people used, and were honest in the feedback they leave, it would be a lot easier.  But that gets manipulated as well, so it's not a great indicator.

Buyers and sellers alike should treat ebay as a casino.  You can't win if you don't play, but if you don't have the stomach for losses, you probably shouldn't put your money on the table.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 09:45:30 am by RandyT »

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2017, 04:55:45 pm »
lol
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

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Re: Got my first unauthorized charge-back as a seller with paypal
« Reply #69 on: July 04, 2017, 02:26:31 pm »
I just gambled in the eBay casino...  I finally decided on what whole house audio controller I wanted to use, a Russound MCA-88x.  These things are like $3500 just for the unit, and you still need speakers, control pads, and of course to have wires in place in the walls.  They go for around $1800 on eBay usually, but I saw one that was pulled from a working system for around $1200.  It was missing the connectors for the speakers, but I found those on eBay for like $23.  So I pulled the trigger.  Controller pads, of which I need 6 total, are going for $130-170 on eBay ($200-$500 new), and so far I purchased 2, one of the bigger 2 gang units, and one of the single gang.  I also sprung for the tuner for this system, which is ridiculously expensive for a damned FM tuner, but my personal use of my in-wall system has always been 90% radio (morning talk show I like that is not available in a stream).  I also needed 8 more channels of amplification for the system, and I found a 12 channel Elan amp that was also a pull from a working system for super cheap ($179, usually stuff like this is in the $400-600 range).

So it will all get in early next week, and I will hook it all up and see if I made a bad gamble.  If it works, I just got into a system that has one of the best API's for connecting to home automation controllers for 30-40% of the cost of new and equivalent in price to an entry level system with marginal API support.  If not, I return it.

The description clearly said it works.  If all it had said was "it powers up", I would have passed and sprung for the additional $400-600 for an overstock from a dealer.  "powers up" is way too vague and doesn't give me an out if it powers up but doesn't work.  Either way, without a certified installer, I don't get warranty anyway, and the extra $2-4k to buy through a dealer and have it installed is not worth a year of warranty to me. 

To me, this is the best part about eBay... the chance to save big money on something you are going to buy either way, but with better protection than if you just buy it on craigslist or through a forum.  Like Randy said, it is a gamble, but it isn't nearly as big a gamble as just about any other way to buy used crap. 

  
 

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