4 player Pedestal using existing media center as base

[KenToad]

I'm back posting on BYOAC forums after a roughly ten year hiatus. I still have my old Williams multicade bartop with modular panels that I made in 2005. It still works great, but I've got the bug to make a free standing piece of furniture that can serve as a place for my kids and their friends to play some games, as well as watch TV and movies.

So I've been contemplating options for this thing. One of the biggest considerations is monitor. Getting the best-sized monitor/TV that isn't too laggy is highest priority at the moment. I was thinking maybe a 40-inch LED would work, but I'm worried about input lag. My kids probably won't notice, but I likely will. I'd appreciate any suggestions.

Beyond that, I haven't decided if I want to mount the TV on the wall and go pedestal or make a wide slim cab  that would potentially make certain viewing angles from the couch less than ideal.

I'll post concept pics in a bit. I need to build this thing in June when my kids and wife will be travelling. Here is a link to my old project thread, if you're curious about my bartop that I'm basically trying to replace.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,37665.0.html

[jimmyfloyd]

Good luck with the new build and can't wait to see the concept. I've seen your original thread and it is one of my springtime goals to do something similar to that.

[NIVO]

hey Ken welcome back. I remember talking to you long ago here.

[leapinlew]

Usually putting the TV in game mode really helps with the input lag. I've never noticed it.

[KenToad]

hey Ken welcome back. I remember talking to you long ago here.

Thanks, Nivo! I remember talking to you, too. And I see that you've got a new bartop project in the works. It looks cool. And I'm really impressed by how popular bartops seem to have become lately. I guess with Led monitors and TV's getting inexpensive and things like Raspberry Pi's, it was inevitable. 

[KenToad]

Usually putting the TV in game mode really helps with the input lag. I've never noticed it.

I have a 50 inch Samsung and, even in game mode, playing Super Mario World just feels off, as in you can't jump at the very edge of a ledge because you'll miss the jump and fall off. You can tell the difference between when you play it on a CRT.

My Raspberry Pi 3 also seems to be even worse with input lag. Maybe I'm imagining it.

[KenToad]

I can't seem to figure out how to link an image from the image thread to here, so I'll just attach it again.

Anyway, this cab was made by ArcadesRFun. It's definitely over the top. I would never pay $5,000 or whatever they're asking for this type of setup, but conceptually I think this type of design could work both as a cab and a media center. One of the challenges is that you don't want the TV to be too small or it's no fun sitting on the couch and you don't want the TV to be too big because then it's like you're watching a tennis match instead of playing games.

I'm thinking that the 40-inch may be the sweet spot. I saw another thread on here asking about these cabs and some of the more experienced guys replying that they thought that the monitor was way too big. I think I might just get the TV and test out the distances. I'm also concerned about the angle of viewing for the people on the couch. I might need to set up a swivel system so that I can tilt it back for arcade controls and tilt it forward for viewing from the couch, if that makes sense.

[KenToad]

Good luck with the new build and can't wait to see the concept. I've seen your original thread and it is one of my springtime goals to do something similar to that.

Cool! Can't wait to see what you put together.

[Mike A]

You can't do both. It will suck at both jobs.

[yotsuya]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

[Mike A]

That is good advice.

[KenToad]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

A fair point. Really this is exactly the conundrum that I've been mulling over: Can I make a functional cab with a screen that can be comfortably viewed from the couch for other media purposes?

The thing that I don't like about a modular pedestal is that they have to be set up. I can just imagine my kids asking me to bring out the pedestal. Put it back, etc. I just want something fixed in place that's relatively foolproof. Whether or not the CP will be a huge distraction for watching media or playing consoles is sort of the big question. I guess I might have to try it out with a TV and a mocked up CP.

[NIVO]

how about adding a 2nd display and simply output a movie to it from the cab? You keep the cab wherever you choose and output somewhere else in the room to the chosen display for the movie(s).  They do make wireless video transmitters as well should cable runs be impossible. Or a smart tv has options. NAS setup to play movies, etc etc.

[rablack97]

Wont work as a media center man, your best bet to use it as its intended, as an arcade cabinet.  What will piss you off is wanting to play a game and somebody is tied up watching Sing or Trolls.  If anything it could double as jukebox for parties, but not a movie theater.

I'd get a Pi or smart TV and stream movies from a server to a 50"-60" tv on a wall.

There's also been the debate of a 40" TV being too much TV for such a short viewing distance.  Max I'd do is 32".

[a1pharm]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

This is perfect advice.  I build my cab to do everything, and intended to use it as a media center of sorts.  Long story short, the angle of the monitor, the height of the monitor, and the joysticks make the TV viewing experience craptastic.  Either make a pedestal or a stand alone.  Don't rely on a stand alone cab to do much of anything useful aside from playing games.  You'll be disappointed if you do, trust me!

[yotsuya]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

This is perfect advice.  I build my cab to do everything, and intended to use it as a media center of sorts.  Long story short, the angle of the monitor, the height of the monitor, and the joysticks make the TV viewing experience craptastic.  Either make a pedestal or a stand alone.  Don't rely on a stand alone cab to do much of anything useful aside from playing games.  You'll be disappointed if you do, trust me!

Thank you, I'm not trying to be a cabsole, but I think it's pretty clear you're going to either need a low built arcade cabinet, or a couch that's really high to have good viewing angles. Just build the pedestal and forget about the Moviecade.

[Ian]

Moviecade???

Just stick a projector out of the back of the arcade machine and angle it against the wall... boom! Moviecade!

[Ian]

You can't do both. It will suck at both jobs.

Like those combo charcoal/gas grills.... two proven grills split in two and combined to give you a small crappy charcoal grill and a small crappy gas grill.

 

[KenToad]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

This is perfect advice.  I build my cab to do everything, and intended to use it as a media center of sorts.  Long story short, the angle of the monitor, the height of the monitor, and the joysticks make the TV viewing experience craptastic.  Either make a pedestal or a stand alone.  Don't rely on a stand alone cab to do much of anything useful aside from playing games.  You'll be disappointed if you do, trust me!

I checked out your cab build. Very cool. So you never hooked any old consoles to it? I'm also in Wisconsin, Milwaukee area, by the way.

[KenToad]

Wont work as a media center man, your best bet to use it as its intended, as an arcade cabinet.  What will piss you off is wanting to play a game and somebody is tied up watching Sing or Trolls.  If anything it could double as jukebox for parties, but not a movie theater.

I'd get a Pi or smart TV and stream movies from a server to a 50"-60" tv on a wall.

There's also been the debate of a 40" TV being too much TV for such a short viewing distance.  Max I'd do is 32".

Thanks for your thoughts. I recently had the opportunity to play on a candy cab. Maybe I'm just imagining it, but it seemed at least as big as a 40" in 4:3 mode. My kids will play literally inches from our 50" upstairs if I let them. And that's on a PS3 in widescreen.

Anyway, I really do appreciate the thoughts. The cab would be primarily an arcade cab and I would not use lighted controls. I would also use a mounting solution that would allow the TV to be easily tilted.

Man, back in 2006 I remember people saying that my bartop didn't have room for two people and that I should have made it single player only. Now there are cottage industries around two player bartops.

So yeah, size, angle, position, I'm definitely going to mock this up before building it.

[KenToad]

how about adding a 2nd display and simply output a movie to it from the cab? You keep the cab wherever you choose and output somewhere else in the room to the chosen display for the movie(s).  They do make wireless video transmitters as well should cable runs be impossible. Or a smart tv has options. NAS setup to play movies, etc etc.

This is a great idea and I would do it, but I'm running out of space. Also, I like the idea of a multipurpose cab.

[Ian]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

This is perfect advice.  I build my cab to do everything, and intended to use it as a media center of sorts.  Long story short, the angle of the monitor, the height of the monitor, and the joysticks make the TV viewing experience craptastic.  Either make a pedestal or a stand alone.  Don't rely on a stand alone cab to do much of anything useful aside from playing games.  You'll be disappointed if you do, trust me!

I checked out your cab build. Very cool. So you never hooked any old consoles to it? I'm also in Wisconsin, Milwaukee area, by the way.

I am from Milwaukee as well! This is a good thread.

[KenToad]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

This is perfect advice.  I build my cab to do everything, and intended to use it as a media center of sorts.  Long story short, the angle of the monitor, the height of the monitor, and the joysticks make the TV viewing experience craptastic.  Either make a pedestal or a stand alone.  Don't rely on a stand alone cab to do much of anything useful aside from playing games.  You'll be disappointed if you do, trust me!

I am from Milwaukee as well! This is a good thread.
I checked out your cab build. Very cool. So you never hooked any old consoles to it? I'm also in Wisconsin, Milwaukee area, by the way.

Another Ian in Milwaukee who posts on BYOAC? That's crazy.

[Ian]

I thought your name was Toad? or Ken?... 

[a1pharm]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

This is perfect advice.  I build my cab to do everything, and intended to use it as a media center of sorts.  Long story short, the angle of the monitor, the height of the monitor, and the joysticks make the TV viewing experience craptastic.  Either make a pedestal or a stand alone.  Don't rely on a stand alone cab to do much of anything useful aside from playing games.  You'll be disappointed if you do, trust me!

I am from Milwaukee as well! This is a good thread.
I checked out your cab build. Very cool. So you never hooked any old consoles to it? I'm also in Wisconsin, Milwaukee area, by the way.

Another Ian in Milwaukee who posts on BYOAC? That's crazy.

Wow, I'm about 40 min from Milwaukee.  Maybe we need to meet up at Lakefront for some beers...

[KenToad]

Just mount the TV on the wall, build a pedestal you can wheel out of the way when you want to watch movies, and do it that way. Seriously, who wants to sit in front of an arcade cabinet for 2 hours watching Star Wars with those joysticks in the way?

This is perfect advice.  I build my cab to do everything, and intended to use it as a media center of sorts.  Long story short, the angle of the monitor, the height of the monitor, and the joysticks make the TV viewing experience craptastic.  Either make a pedestal or a stand alone.  Don't rely on a stand alone cab to do much of anything useful aside from playing games.  You'll be disappointed if you do, trust me!

I am from Milwaukee as well! This is a good thread.
I checked out your cab build. Very cool. So you never hooked any old consoles to it? I'm also in Wisconsin, Milwaukee area, by the way.

Another Ian in Milwaukee who posts on BYOAC? That's crazy.

Wow, I'm about 40 min from Milwaukee.  Maybe we need to meet up at Lakefront for some beers...

Absolutely, I'd be happy to meet up there and have a beer.  I'm in Shorewood, literally half a block from the city line, so that's not far at all.

In project news, I just ordered a 40" TV for about 200 bucks. It's a dumb TV, Sceptre brand. I couldn't find out too much about lag or viewing angles. However, it is 1080p and has a vga input, which I love. All the reviews say the picture is good but the sound is bad. I'll be hooking it up to external speakers anyway.

I should get it next week and start testing input lag and acceptable viewing distances and angles. If it seems to work, I'll use its dimensions to start designing a cabinet around my specific gaming/media requirements. Or maybe I'll just find out that I need to go pedestal, as several of you have suggested.

In 4:3 mode, it seems to be nearly identically proportioned to a 32" CRT, so I'm hopeful that I can make this work.

[Ian]

I think we need definitely need to discuss the plans for this cabinet at lakefront... 

I am in the South Side of Milwaukee by Bayview.

[KenToad]

Yes, sounds like the meetup at Lakefront will happen. Someone suggest a time.

In project news, my off brand not smart 40-inch LED TV is here. So far so good. The size is perfect, at least for me. The couch isn't too far from where the TV will be mounted in the cabinet. I'd say 7-8 feet max from eyes to screen, fully reclined. Viewing movies and TV will be a secondary feature, so this works for me. My kids watched our old 26" from this couch, so this is an upgrade. The picture is pretty good. I can get decently close without eye strain or feeling like I'm going to get simulator sickness.

For its primary purpose, I'm detecting just the tiniest bit of lag. I've tested both on my old bartop through VGA and through HDMI with my raspberry pie 3. One weird thing is that the TV seems unable to change aspect ratio. I don't know if this will be an issue for any emulators or hyperspin. Anyone have any experience? I guess the suckiest part is that my hyperspin themes are almost all 4:3, so I will have to go and find suitable widescreen alternatives. nvm I'm an idiot. It's a menu option. Not ideal, but works.

[fgh]

Instead of a large pedestal you could make a detachable control panel on the wall below the tv, and put a small pc inside.

Might work better on smaller screens though

[KenToad]

For the CP, I'm planning to go full on 4 foot wide frankenpanel with 2 spinners and a trackball.

I'm NOT interested in LED lighting, trigger grips/flight sticks, 4 way controls, analog joysticks, 270 degree steering wheels or tons of admin buttons.

For the spinners and trackball, what do people like? I'm thinking of just getting Groovy Game Gear stuff. Usually, I like RandyT's products. I haven't tried any non-original arcade spinners (besides my own), though.

Speaking of 2 spinners and a trackball, I assume that they will play nice together, ie that I will have 2 mice in Windows that can be recognized and remapped by MAME and other emulators? In other words, how easy is it to setup a trackball interface as a first mouse and 2 spinners as a second mouse? Anyone who has experience or researched this topic, tell me what I should buy.

I'm also going back and forth on whether I should have graphics or a theme. It's a piece of furniture (media center with arcade cab shape), so I would think abstract art would be the way to go. I want to do a CP overlay just for the tactile benefit (much prefer the feel of vinyl as opposed to resting your palms on plexiglass or a painted surface) and being able to label buttons and sort the controls.

[pbj]

Spinner is only one axis.  You can have one connected to the trackball X axis, and the other to your trackball Y, and frankly run all of them off one mouse input. 

Unless for some reason you need them to operate independently from each other.

 

[KenToad]

Just for Off The Wall. And maybe Warlords. 

*Edit* I'm not even sure if MAME supports 2 spinners and the X axis of a trackball for 3 player Off the Wall, probably does.

[pbj]

Ah, well, if you're determined that someday, somehow you're going to get 2 other people interested in playing Off the Wall, then my solution won't work.

[KenToad]

Maybe I'll message RandyT to see what he thinks of the setup.

Does everyone like Groovy Game Gear spinners and​ trackballs​?

[NIVO]

I can speak for the TurboTwist2 spinner. I love it, slim design(no bigger than button hole) and the weighted spin is spot on. Nothing to complain about. The light kit for the trackball works awesome as well.

[PL1]

Just for Off The Wall. And maybe Warlords. 

*Edit* I'm not even sure if MAME supports 2 spinners and the X axis of a trackball for 3 player Off the Wall, probably does.

The answer you're looking for comes in two parts:

1. Two Optiwiz boards with different ID numbers - one for trackball and the other for the spinners.

You can't piggy-back optical axis data lines because optical encoders translate the high-low transitions of the quadrature waveforms on the data lines into mouse movements.

If you piggy-backed two data lines (i.e. trackball X-axis A and spinner X-axis A), I'm not sure if high would beat low, low would beat high, or if they would average together preventing the encoder from reliably detecting a clean transition between high and low.   

All three piggy-back possibilities = fail.



2. Multimouse enabled in mame.ini.

Does everyone like Groovy Game Gear spinners and​ trackballs​?

The TT2 is the best arcade-style control I've ever used.   


Scott

[KenToad]

Awesome! Perfect answers. I will order some stuff from GGG soon.

[KenToad]

Do any of you guys have the premium knob for Turbo Twist 2? If so, do you adjust the tension much?

Anyone have a GGG trackball or a link to a review?

[NIVO]

dont have the premium knob, just the regular black one. Never had to fiddle with the set screw. I did make my own knob out of solid aluminum but havent mounted it yet. I dont foresee any trouble though.

[KenToad]

These are the modular panels that I will be cannibalizing for this project. They have served me well over the years, but I've grown tired of storing extra control configurations. Also, I'm looking forward to upgrading to Turbotwist spinners and a trackball. In other news, I think I'm going to take the advice of the majority and make a pedestal. It seems to offer many advantages. It's​ a smaller building project and I can mount the TV on the wall and just build the pedestal under it. I want the lower part of the pedestal to be shelves for consoles and storage for USB converted original controllers. I just hope my carpentry skills are up to the challenge.

[Mike A]

A pedestal nicely fits your requirements.

[KenToad]

Initially, I was going to give away this old media cabinet that I picked up for free a couple of years ago. But now I'm looking at it with different eyes and thinking that maybe it could be a fine pedestal base. It's a little short, so I think I would need to add some two by four framing at the bottom, but it seems to be very sturdy and I think it's dimensions of 28" by 15.5" are big enough to give my planned four foot wide panel a solid foundation.

Also, it will save me money and time.

[NIVO]

im thinking......

#1 yank the glass
#2 yank the end black pieces
#3 get some black melamine panels and enclose the structure(or laminate your preferred choice of wood)
#4 use inner area for sub/speakers or use the very bottom chamber for sub/speakers with some speaker cloth covering for aesthetics

[KenToad]

im thinking......

#1 yank the glass
#2 yank the end black pieces
#3 get some black melamine panels and enclose the structure(or laminate your preferred choice of wood)
#4 use inner area for sub/speakers or use the very bottom chamber for sub/speakers with some speaker cloth covering for aesthetics

Definitely planning to yank the glass. It's a pain already just with controller wires.

What do you mean by the end black pieces?

Good suggestion to enclose it, but my thought was to leave it open and store game consoles and controllers in the area behind the glass door. I may add another shelf, though.

Similar to above, I was thinking more of opening up the base section and maybe throwing my PS3 down there. I have a feeling that I may have to reinforce it structurally if I do that, though. As for speakers, I already ordered a sound bar that is nearly the width of the TV. Probably not the greatest sound, but I like that it can be easily mounted on the wall under or over the TV.

Thanks for the suggestions, NIVO.

[KenToad]

I have a technical question regarding spinners and trackballs. If I get a pair of TurboTwist 2's from Groovy Game Gear and a Utrack Trackball from Ultimarc with the USB interface, should I make my TurboTwist 2 device interface number 2, assuming that I would like to use the Trackball as the primary mouse?

I'm thinking that maybe the computer will reassign the TT2 and the Utrack to different device numbers upon reboot. And that will cause problems with input assignments. Maybe none of this matters because both devices will be otherwise uniquely identified?

I suppose I should contact Andy and Randy, but I thought that I would ask here first. Thanks for any help.

[PL1]

I have a technical question regarding spinners and trackballs. If I get a pair of TurboTwist 2's from Groovy Game Gear and a Utrack Trackball from Ultimarc with the USB interface, should I make my TurboTwist 2 device interface number 2, assuming that I would like to use the Trackball as the primary mouse?

I'm thinking that maybe the computer will reassign the TT2 and the Utrack to different device numbers upon reboot. And that will cause problems with input assignments. Maybe none of this matters because both devices will be otherwise uniquely identified?

I suppose I should contact Andy and Randy, but I thought that I would ask here first. Thanks for any help.

Device renumbering can only make a difference if multimouse is enabled.

If multimouse isn't enabled, Windows will add the inputs for each axis.

For example, if you accidently bumped the X-axis spinner 3 steps left while moving the trackball 7 steps right, Windows will move the X-axis cursor 4 steps right.

If the spinners and trackball are positioned in a way that using one control is not likely to accidently nudge the other, you don't need to enable multimouse.


Scott

[NIVO]

ok here is what i meant

[KenToad]

NIVO, I agree that that change would make it look better. It's not exactly a pretty cabinet. But, as I said, I'm going to be using the shelving, so I kind of like the open look, just for practical purposes.

Eventually, I might add a hard drive to the PS2 and letter bomb our wii, so that shelving on the side could be used for PS3 or whatever other more modern consoles I decide to shelve within this pedestal.

Thanks again for your input. I appreciate it.

[KenToad]

I have a technical question regarding spinners and trackballs. If I get a pair of TurboTwist 2's from Groovy Game Gear and a Utrack Trackball from Ultimarc with the USB interface, should I make my TurboTwist 2 device interface number 2, assuming that I would like to use the Trackball as the primary mouse?

I'm thinking that maybe the computer will reassign the TT2 and the Utrack to different device numbers upon reboot. And that will cause problems with input assignments. Maybe none of this matters because both devices will be otherwise uniquely identified?

I suppose I should contact Andy and Randy, but I thought that I would ask here first. Thanks for any help.

Device renumbering can only make a difference if multimouse is enabled.

If multimouse isn't enabled, Windows will add the inputs for each axis.

For example, if you accidently bumped the X-axis spinner 3 steps left while moving the trackball 7 steps right, Windows will move the X-axis cursor 4 steps right.

If the spinners and trackball are positioned in a way that using one control is not likely to accidently nudge the other, you don't need to enable multimouse.


Scott

Multimouse doesn't affect MAME or emulators, right? I'll still be able to map the trackball and spinners as individual devices, so that I can play games utilizing three spinners, such as Off the Wall, Ironman Stewart, Warlords and a plethora of PONG variants?

If so, it sounds like I should choose device number 1 for my pair of TT2 spinners.

Thanks for the help.

[PL1]

Multimouse doesn't affect MAME or emulators, right?

Multimouse is a MAME setting in mame.ini. (0=disabled, 1 = enabled)

# CORE INPUT OPTIONS
#
coin_lockout              1
ctrlr                     
mouse                     1
joystick                  1
lightgun                  0
multikeyboard             0
multimouse                1

I'll still be able to map the trackball and spinners as individual devices, so that I can play games utilizing three spinners, such as Off the Wall, Ironman Stewart, Warlords and a plethora of PONG variants?

If you plan on having 3 players at one time that means either 2 on spinners and one on trackball or a second set of spinners.

Either way you will need multimouse enabled to keep the axes separate.


Scott

[KenToad]

Okay, I see what you mean now. So do you think I should get my spinners and associated Opti-Wiz encoder as device 2 or device 1? Maybe it doesn't matter?

[PL1]

So do you think I should get my spinners and associated Opti-Wiz encoder as device 2 or device 1? Maybe it doesn't matter?

It only matters if you plan on getting more than one Opti-Wiz.

Windows and MAME will see the OptiWiz as a different device than the Ultimarc optical encoder.


Scott

[KenToad]

Awesome! Thanks so much, Scott.

[KenToad]

So here is my WIP control panel. I haven't decided where exactly to place the spinners yet. I'm open to suggestions. I also haven't decided if I really want a 4-way joystick on the panel. The angled buttons between the 4-way and the trackball would be mouse buttons. I'm still not entirely sure if I want mouse buttons, but they seem like a good idea.

I should also acknowledge that I used Delusional's quad CP design as a starting point. And I like Slagcoin's button spacing, so I used that for all non-admin style buttons.

[KenToad]

What about button labels? GGG has some graphic inserts, but I can't seem to find translucent buttons to fit them. I'm open to other suggestions. What's the best product on the market for labeling button functions?

[PL1]

What about button labels? GGG has some graphic inserts, but I can't seem to find translucent buttons to fit them. I'm open to other suggestions. What's the best product on the market for labeling button functions?

For LED buttons with a removable cap like these, you can inkjet print your own inserts like the ones here or here on Avery 18665 (10 pack) or Avery 8665 (25 pack) media.



For normal buttons, SlammedNiss does vinyl decals here.


Scott

[KenToad]

The LED buttons look nice. Where did you get those? NVM, I see that I must follow the links in your post. Thanks!

[PL1]

One other hard-to-find option and an important note on yellow buttons.

I really like these  low-profile black-rimmed buttons (Rick is the only vendor I've found that stocks these  ) with inkjet printed inserts on Avery 18665 or 8665 labels.

The ring between the nut and bezel is removable.



There are many vendors that carry translucent-rimmed or "sawed-off volcano" LED buttons.



I usualy get 12v LEDs and power them with 5v -- not as bright and much longer lasting. 
PROTIP: Get white LEDs for yellow buttons -- yellow LED + yellow diffuser = muddy orange.

Scott

[KenToad]

Thanks again! I don't want lit controls, but I like having labeled translucent buttons for things like adding credits and exiting. I suppose I could label things on an overlay, but I'm not sure what, if any, graphics I'm going to have on there. In fact, I'm not even sure if I'm going to use an overlay. I'm using a decent piece of plywood as the top of the control panel. My wife likes the look of light, natural wood grain. I might just slap a few layers of poly on the top of the control panel and call it done.

[KenToad]

Another minor detail that I'm wrestling with is start buttons. I don't really like the usual method of putting players 3 and 4 on the outsides of the CP. I certainly see the practicality of it, since Player 1 and 2 will naturally use the middle 2 sticks for games that only allow 2 players. However, my experience is that people don't really look at whether they are pressing player 1 or 2. They just see that they're pressing a player start button. So my thought is that most people won't notice or understand that player 3 is the farthest to the left. And I'm pretty sure that I will want to remap the joysticks so that player 1's controls are the furthest to the left for most 3 and 4 player games.

Anyway, I'm thinking that I will just have player 1 buttons across the board as a sort of generic start button. Do any of you think that this might be a bad idea? I might be overthinking this.

[PL1]

I'm pretty sure that I will want to remap the joysticks so that player 1's controls are the furthest to the left for most 3 and 4 player games.

This idea has been well-received in several older threads.   

my experience is that people don't really look at whether they are pressing player 1 or 2. They just see that they're pressing a player start button. So my thought is that most people won't notice or understand that player 3 is the farthest to the left.

Anyway, I'm thinking that I will just have player 1 buttons across the board as a sort of generic start button. Do any of you think that this might be a bad idea? I might be overthinking this.

"Player outline"-style buttons like the quarter+P2 pic above can make things confusing.

You can make it easier with generic labeling (i.e. "Start" instead of player outlines), color coding and button placement.

If the center-left player (P1) has red player buttons and a nearby translucent-red "Start" button next to a coin button, it is easier to think in terms of "Red Player buttons" instead of "P1 buttons".


Scott

[KenToad]

Progress, I extended the dimensions to 48 by 27-ish.

[KenToad]

I made my first ever order from Ultimarc. Andy Warner has lived up to his legendary customer service. Firstly, the shipping was incredibly fast. Ordered on the weekend. Got here to Wisconsin from England on Wednesday.

Unfortunately, somebody packed the order wrong and gave me an Ipac 2 instead of an Ipac 4 and no USB cable. I sent an email with a picture of the Ipac and invoice. Less than 12 hours later, probably just because of it being the middle of the night in England when I emailed, Andy emailed back, apologizing and saying that he would send out the Ipac 4. And I even had the invoice and shipping notification already in my inbox.

Wow! And I'm really impressed with the quality of the Ultralux buttons and the Utrak trackball.

Meanwhile, Randy at Groovy Game Gear has sent me an email clarifying one element of my order, to be 100% certain that he gets my order perfect.

We hobbyists really are lucky to have two fantastic and innovative retailers in Ultimarc and Groovy Game Gear.

[pbj]

Legendary customer service... yet sent you the wrong items....

 

I'm glad it worked out for you in the end.

[yotsuya]

Legendary customer service... yet sent you the wrong items....

 

I'm glad it worked out for you in the end.

Yes, legendary. He shipped out the order super fast, and when there was an issue, he didn't beat around the bush or disappear. Get over your dislike and deal with it.

[KenToad]

Progress.

[KenToad]

I am struggling with final button and joystick placements. Also, the turbotwist 2 spinners are amazing. I got the black aluminum dome knobs, which are really nice. Additionally, I got the accu-twist setup, but I forgot it was there because there were no instructions about how to use it and it's really discreet. Maybe I'll never use it? Anyone who has one of these can confirm how much they use the accu-twist system? Unfortunately, I forgot to order the second energy storage cylinder for the second spinner. 

For now, I'm going to install both spinners, one with the energy storage cylinder and one without. It's a bit stupid because I designed my CP depth around the weights. But I guess I'll get a chance to compare the performance of the spinners with and without the extra weight before I spring for another shipping fee.

What are people using the soften the closing of the CP lid? I've got two toy box style hinge supports and it helps, but I think I might need two or three more to really make the lid close more slowly and safely. Maybe someone knows a better solution?

[KenToad]

Messing around with joystick layouts and realizing that the Smash TV joys aren't necessary. I can use an Xbox 360 controller with staggered twin sticks, so why not actual arcade controls.

It was just too tight of a fit for 4 players with 6 joysticks. Also, 4 joysticks will be more easily grokked by newbies.

I still haven't decided where to put my spinners.

also, my pinball button placement is not ideal under the wings of the CP top. Basically, you have no place to rest your palms. Now I see the benefit of the aircraft carrier design more clearly.

[pbj]

You'll adjust to offset joysticks for Smash TV in about 5 seconds.  I play it with Player 1 & 3 joysticks on my pedestal.  I'd really advise against a dedicated setup for Smash TV unless you REALLY like that game.  (you don't)

[KenToad]

Thanks, PBJ! The part that I was hung up on was that player 1 and player 2 will have to have opposite offsetting. But, yeah, standing in front of it, I don't foresee any issues. Also, we're talking 2 games, probably beat both in an hour. They are some of my all time favorites. However, it would be silly to sacrifice the playability of dozens of other games just to make Smash/Total Carnage perfect.

I'm preparing to modify the shape of my CP top to an aircraft carrier. I just like visual pinball that much. It's probably the thing I play most often when I'm by myself (less now that I have a real pin).

[KenToad]

Progress. A few hours later my wiring has turned into a rat's nest, despite my best intentions. I am blending my old wiring from my modular panels with wires from a jamma harness.

I have a PS2, an N64 and soon a PS3 on the shelves of the media center that now acts as the base of the pedestal. There is space in the bottom section of the media center for all my USB adapted original controllers. I will connect and store NES SNES and Genesis controllers down there.

The joys and trackball are blind mounted from the underside of the CP. What a pain! I drilled through the top of the CP twice. I will not blind mount again. I'll go with carriage bolts next time for that classic look and simplicity of installation.

The top of the control panel took 7 coats of poly to get smooth. I'll post a picture of the finished product hopefully soon, as I'm entering the final stretch of this project.

[Ian]

I see some Riverwest stein! Good stuff!

[KenToad]

Okay, I'm feeling like an idiot. I'm using commandline Mame64 .177 and I cannot figure out how to get it to utilize the most screen real estate while maintaining aspect ratio. What am I missing? I'll paste in my ini.

#
# CORE CONFIGURATION OPTIONS
#
readconfig                1
writeconfig               0

#
# CORE SEARCH PATH OPTIONS
#
rompath                   roms
hashpath                  hash
samplepath                samples
artpath                   artwork
ctrlrpath                 ctrlr
inipath                   .;ini;ini/presets
fontpath                  .
cheatpath                 cheat
crosshairpath             crosshair
pluginspath               plugins
languagepath              language

#
# CORE OUTPUT DIRECTORY OPTIONS
#
cfg_directory             cfg
nvram_directory           nvram
input_directory           inp
state_directory           sta
snapshot_directory        snap
diff_directory            diff
comment_directory         comments

#
# CORE OUTPUT DIRECTORY OPTIONS
#
hiscore_directory         hi

#
# CORE STATE/PLAYBACK OPTIONS
#
state                     
autosave                  0
playback                 
record                   
record_timecode           0
exit_after_playback       0
mngwrite                 
aviwrite                 
wavwrite                 
snapname                  %g/%i
snapsize                  auto
snapview                  internal
snapbilinear              1
statename                 %g
burnin                    0

#
# CORE PERFORMANCE OPTIONS
#
autoframeskip             0
frameskip                 0
seconds_to_run            0
throttle                  1
sleep                     0
speed                     1.0
refreshspeed              0

#
# CORE RENDER OPTIONS
#
keepaspect                1
unevenstretch             0
unevenstretchx            0
unevenstretchy            0
autostretchxy             0
intoverscan               0
intscalex                 0
intscaley                 0

#
# CORE ROTATION OPTIONS
#
rotate                    1
ror                       0
rol                       0
autoror                   0
autorol                   0
flipx                     0
flipy                     0

#
# CORE ARTWORK OPTIONS
#
artwork_crop              0
use_backdrops             1
use_overlays              1
use_bezels                1
use_cpanels               1
use_marquees              1

#
# CORE SCREEN OPTIONS
#
brightness                1.0
contrast                  1.0
gamma                     1.0
pause_brightness          0.65
effect                    none

#
# CORE VECTOR OPTIONS
#
beam_width_min            1.0
beam_width_max            1.0
beam_intensity_weight     0
flicker                   0

#
# CORE SOUND OPTIONS
#
samplerate                48000
samples                   1
volume                    0

#
# CORE INPUT OPTIONS
#
coin_lockout              1
ctrlr                     xarcade
mouse                     1
joystick                  1
lightgun                  1
multikeyboard             0
multimouse                1
steadykey                 0
ui_active                 0
offscreen_reload          0
joystick_map              auto
joystick_deadzone         0.3
joystick_saturation       0.85
natural                   0
joystick_contradictory    0
coin_impulse              0

#
# CORE INPUT AUTOMATIC ENABLE OPTIONS
#
paddle_device             keyboard
adstick_device            lightgun
pedal_device              keyboard
dial_device               mouse
trackball_device          mouse
lightgun_device           lightgun
positional_device         mouse
mouse_device              mouse

#
# CORE DEBUGGING OPTIONS
#
verbose                   0
log                       0
oslog                     0
debug                     0
update_in_pause           0
debugscript               

#
# CORE COMM OPTIONS
#
comm_localhost            0.0.0.0
comm_localport            15112
comm_remotehost           127.0.0.1
comm_remoteport           15112

#
# CORE MISC OPTIONS
#
drc                       1
drc_use_c                 0
drc_log_uml               0
drc_log_native            0
bios                     
cheat                     0
skip_gameinfo             0
uifont                    default
ui                        cabinet
ramsize                   
confirm_quit              0
ui_mouse                  1
autoboot_command         
autoboot_delay            0
autoboot_script           
console                   0
plugins                   1
plugin                   
noplugin                 
language                  English

#
# CORE MKChamp OPTIONS
#
disable_hiscore_patch     0

#
# OSD KEYBOARD MAPPING OPTIONS
#
uimodekey                 SCRLOCK

#
# OSD FONT OPTIONS
#
uifontprovider            auto

#
# OSD OUTPUT OPTIONS
#
output                    auto

#
# OSD INPUT OPTIONS
#
keyboardprovider          auto
mouseprovider             auto
lightgunprovider          auto
joystickprovider          auto

#
# OSD DEBUGGING OPTIONS
#
debugger                  auto
debugger_font             auto
debugger_font_size        0
watchdog                  0

#
# OSD PERFORMANCE OPTIONS
#
numprocessors             auto
bench                     0

#
# OSD VIDEO OPTIONS
#
video                     auto
numscreens                1
window                    0
maximize                  1
waitvsync                 1
syncrefresh               0

#
# OSD PER-WINDOW VIDEO OPTIONS
#
screen                    auto
aspect                    auto
resolution                auto
view                      auto
screen0                   auto
aspect0                   auto
resolution0               auto
view0                     auto
screen1                   auto
aspect1                   auto
resolution1               auto
view1                     auto
screen2                   auto
aspect2                   auto
resolution2               auto
view2                     auto
screen3                   auto
aspect3                   auto
resolution3               auto
view3                     auto

#
# OSD FULL SCREEN OPTIONS
#
switchres                 0

#
# OSD ACCELERATED VIDEO OPTIONS
#
filter                    1
prescale                  1

#
# OpenGL-SPECIFIC OPTIONS
#
gl_forcepow2texture       0
gl_notexturerect          0
gl_vbo                    1
gl_pbo                    1
gl_glsl                   0
gl_glsl_filter            1
glsl_shader_mame0         none
glsl_shader_mame1         none
glsl_shader_mame2         none
glsl_shader_mame3         none
glsl_shader_mame4         none
glsl_shader_mame5         none
glsl_shader_mame6         none
glsl_shader_mame7         none
glsl_shader_mame8         none
glsl_shader_mame9         none
glsl_shader_screen0       none
glsl_shader_screen1       none
glsl_shader_screen2       none
glsl_shader_screen3       none
glsl_shader_screen4       none
glsl_shader_screen5       none
glsl_shader_screen6       none
glsl_shader_screen7       none
glsl_shader_screen8       none
glsl_shader_screen9       none

#
# OSD SOUND OPTIONS
#
sound                     auto
audio_latency             2

#
# BGFX POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
bgfx_path                 bgfx
bgfx_backend              auto
bgfx_debug                0
bgfx_screen_chains        default
bgfx_shadow_mask          slot-mask.png
bgfx_avi_name             auto

#
# WINDOWS PERFORMANCE OPTIONS
#
priority                  0
profile                   0

#
# WINDOWS VIDEO OPTIONS
#
menu                      0

#
# DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
hlslpath                  hlsl
hlsl_enable               0
hlsl_oversampling         0
hlsl_write                auto
hlsl_snap_width           2048
hlsl_snap_height          1536
shadow_mask_tile_mode     0
shadow_mask_alpha         0.0
shadow_mask_texture       shadow-mask.png
shadow_mask_x_count       6
shadow_mask_y_count       4
shadow_mask_usize         0.1875
shadow_mask_vsize         0.25
shadow_mask_uoffset       0.0
shadow_mask_voffset       0.0
distortion                0.0
cubic_distortion          0.0
distort_corner            0.0
round_corner              0.0
smooth_border             0.0
reflection                0.0
vignetting                0.0
scanline_alpha            0.0
scanline_size             1.0
scanline_height           1.0
scanline_variation        1.0
scanline_bright_scale     1.0
scanline_bright_offset    0.0
scanline_jitter           0.0
hum_bar_alpha             0.0
defocus                   0.0,0.0
converge_x                0.0,0.0,0.0
converge_y                0.0,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_x         0.0,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_y         0.0,0.0,0.0
red_ratio                 1.0,0.0,0.0
grn_ratio                 0.0,1.0,0.0
blu_ratio                 0.0,0.0,1.0
saturation                1.0
offset                    0.0,0.0,0.0
scale                     1.0,1.0,1.0
power                     1.0,1.0,1.0
floor                     0.0,0.0,0.0
phosphor_life             0.0,0.0,0.0

#
# NTSC POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
yiq_enable                0
yiq_jitter                0.0
yiq_cc                    3.57954545
yiq_a                     0.5
yiq_b                     0.5
yiq_o                     0.0
yiq_p                     1.0
yiq_n                     1.0
yiq_y                     6.0
yiq_i                     1.2
yiq_q                     0.6
yiq_scan_time             52.6
yiq_phase_count           2

#
# VECTOR POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
vector_beam_smooth        0.0
vector_length_scale       0.5
vector_length_ratio       0.5

#
# BLOOM POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
bloom_blend_mode          0
bloom_scale               0.0
bloom_overdrive           1.0,1.0,1.0
bloom_lvl0_weight         1.0
bloom_lvl1_weight         0.64
bloom_lvl2_weight         0.32
bloom_lvl3_weight         0.16
bloom_lvl4_weight         0.08
bloom_lvl5_weight         0.06
bloom_lvl6_weight         0.04
bloom_lvl7_weight         0.02
bloom_lvl8_weight         0.01

#
# FULL SCREEN OPTIONS
#
triplebuffer              0
full_screen_brightness    1.0
full_screen_contrast      1.0
full_screen_gamma         1.0

#
# INPUT DEVICE OPTIONS
#
global_inputs             0
dual_lightgun             1

[KenToad]

Okay, I figured out how to use my video card to set the output resolution to 1440x1080. That solves the issue of Hyperspin looking stretched. It also makes most emulators look correct and fill up the screen vertically. However, I still cannot figure out what settings in MAME will make the black bars on the top and bottom go away.

[KenToad]

Pictorial example, notice how the game doesn't fill the screen vertically.

[yamatetsu]

Okay, I'm feeling like an idiot. I'm using commandline Mame64 .177 and I cannot figure out how to get it to utilize the most screen real estate while maintaining aspect ratio. What am I missing?

#
# CORE RENDER OPTIONS
#
keepaspect                1

You already are using the most screen real estate you are going to get while maintaining aspect ratio. Displaying 4:3 games on a 16:9 or 16:10 will always result in black bars at the border.
You can turn keeping the aspect ratio off if you set keepaspect to 0, this will give you a full screen, but it will be stretched either horizontally or vertically. Some games look ok doing that, most probably will not.

You might take a look at this thread, perhaps it will help you. http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,153387.msg1606912.html#msg1606912

[KenToad]

I'll check out the thread and try changing the settings, but I should have been more clear that there are black bars both vertically and horizontally.

Thanks so much for the reply.

[KenToad]

Even vertically oriented games are shrunken. It's almost like Mame is adding a blank bezel.

[yamatetsu]

It's almost like Mame is adding a blank bezel.

That may indeed be your problem. Try setting use_bezels to 0. Maybe even set everything in that section to 0 for good measure.

#
# CORE ARTWORK OPTIONS
#
artwork_crop              0
use_backdrops             1
use_overlays              1
use_bezels                1
use_cpanels               1
use_marquees              1

[KenToad]

It's late. I'll try it tomorrow. 

[KenToad]

I still can't get the games to extend nicely to the borders. Interestingly, even when I manually stretch the image through the tab menu, I can stretch it horizontally no problem, but there are black bars at the top and bottom of the screen that cover the the vertical stretch. I can move the mouse pointer around in those spaces, but I can't view the game screens there.

I guess I'll move this question to the software forum.

[KenToad]

Ugh, I replaced the ini file with a backup and now everything works well.

[yamatetsu]

Heh. I was just about to post my suggestion to try a fresh .ini when I got the warning that a new reply has been posted.

Problem solved, now off you go to tackle the next one 

[KenToad]

Crap, I don't know what's wrong with my Mame installation. Now it refuses to recognize mouse inputs, although I definitely have them turned on in the ini. I've successfully dealt with dual spinners and other mice devices in older versions of Mame.

*Edit* I figured it out. There was another place in the ini to tell Mame to use the mouse instead of keyboard for various forms of input.

[KenToad]

Now I can't get Mame to recognize multiple mice inputs as independent, even though multimouse is enabled. I had hoped that it would be automatic. No big deal, I guess. 

[KenToad]

My son and daughter playing 4 player Simpsons with their friends.

[KenToad]

The view from the couch.

[KenToad]

Side view.

[KenToad]

So the building part of the project is done. I'm still dealing with setting up emulators and lists and such. Frankly, software could be a forever project. It will be done when I decide to stop working on it. However, I reached a couple of milestones. One, I got multimouse on MAME working. Apparently, directinput doesn't work for multimouse. You need to set mouseprovider to rawinput. Mine was set to auto, but I think my specific build was set to force directinput, so it recognized all the different mice as one mouse, which was frustrating and difficult to research, since it doesn't seem to be too common of a problem.

I didn't document much of the build process, mainly because I don't think the process that I use is very professional or repeatable. I don't use plans. I downloaded sketchup, but couldn't be bothered to learn it. All my measurements were approximations based upon what felt right. I'm not overly concerned with exact anything. I smoothed things out with a random orbital sander and filled gaps with wood filler. Frankly, I'm not much of a woodworker. I'm impressed if anything ends up plumb or square.

Even if you fly by the seat of your pants like me when it comes to woodworking, I would still suggest hanging or propping up your monitor at the correct-ish height, mocking up your CP, testing different seating and standing positions with other people, and then keeping in mind that you can always alter the plans on the fly and that you should do so, if necessary. Also, I suggest not blind mounting your controls under the CP. Just go with carriage bolts drilled all the way through. If you're not countesinking them under an overlay, maybe spray paint them black with a good spray paint made for metal, like rustoleum. Definitely use slagcoin button and joystick templates. Print out a bunch, paste them onto your mockup CP, and go with the layout that feels right. Plan on a 5 degree slope on the front. If you have a big panel, just use regular hinges and don't worry about latches or fancy supports. At that slope, it will stay shut and you can easily prop it open. If you have a 4 player setup, square all of the joysticks up with the monitor and don't try to squeeze more than 4 joysticks onto your CP. For wiring, order one jamma harness per 20-ish buttons. I ordered one harness from www.pyb-arcade.com (through ebay), but I wish I had ordered three harnesses for my 56 inputs. It made wiring so much easier and neater.

I'll just use this space to say a big thank you to those who helped out during the planning part of the thread, especially Scott (PL1) and NIVO, but also anyone who took the time to post a reply. I appreciate this community very much and it feels good to be visiting again on a regular basis.

[DaredevilDave]

Just wanted to comment on the Media Center / Arcade combo - maybe it's too late for any comments, I skipped page 2.

I use my arcade for both, but I have a separate 60" TV across the room for movies and driving games. It is hooked up to the arcade cab.

I can set one monitor up for the game and one up for the TV if I want. I can run MAME and movies at the same time, each with independent audio outputs. I can surf the web on the TV as well and use it as a computer.

That photo of the kids playing is great. Makes it all worth it when someone else finds joy in something you made.

[KenToad]

Thanks, Dave! Yeah, the kids and their friends are loving the new setup. I swear I spend more time fiddling with the software than playing, but I have gotten several hours in. The funny part is seeing the kids through a nostalgia lens and remembering myself at their ages. My son Dylan is the biggest gamer. Ironically, he's also the one who complains about the Control Panel's lack of graphics. But he loves multiplayer arcade games, especially, so he probably also enjoys playing it the most. My old bartop is basically retired at this point. I'm considering selling off the dual 49-way joystick setup. I even have rotary attachments, but it's always made the 49 ways have an uneven resistance that I don't like. I get better results playing the rotary games with spinners.

Your setup sounds awesome! I suppose I could do something like that, too. I considered installing a 2nd 26 inch monitor on the wall near the couch, so that it could swivel out and act as a work monitor or another way to play console games on the couch. I scrapped the idea because I have plenty of room on this CP to fit a keyboard and mouse. We have had a couple of instances where my son wants to play PS3 when I'm working on the computer, but we have plenty of gaming systems, including a wii and an N64 with a flashcart upstairs, so it hasn't been a big issue.

Thanks for the comment. I need to turn on subscriptions so I can reply sooner.