QBert with rotated 4/8-way joysick?

[Willard_Bones]

  Hi all!

  I'm in the planning stage of building a MAME control panel.  Trying to make it both minimalist AND versatile.  The only stumbling block I've run into is QBert!  I don't want a dedicated 45 degree 4-way joystick for this one game.  But, QBert is one of the few games that my wife likes...

  I plan on two 8-way joysticks (Robotron).  I thought I would get the 4/8-way convertible ones, that allow you to pull the joystick up, and twist, to change between 4-way and 8-way. 

  Here's my idea, and my question:  What if I install one of these joysticks at 45 degrees, so that when it is in the 4-way mode, it is diagonal?  That way, my wife will have a diagonal 4-way for QBert, and I still have the 8-way for Robotron.  The other, non-rotated joystick would work for dedicated 4-way games.

  Is there a problem that I am overlooking?  Has anyone else done this, and if so, how well did it work?

  Thanks!

[PL1]

  I plan on two 8-way joysticks (Robotron).  I thought I would get the 4/8-way convertible ones, that allow you to pull the joystick up, and twist, to change between 4-way and 8-way.

  Here's my idea, and my question:  What if I install one of these joysticks at 45 degrees, so that when it is in the 4-way mode, it is diagonal?  That way, my wife will have a diagonal 4-way for QBert, and I still have the 8-way for Robotron.  The other, non-rotated joystick would work for dedicated 4-way games.

  Is there a problem that I am overlooking?

The main problem is that changing between 4-way and 8-way involves moving the restrictor plate, not moving the switches -- the switches remain at 0, 90, 180, and 270.

For QBert, a 4-way stick is rotated 45 degrees clockwise so "up+right" relative to the panel is "up" relative to the stick.

You have to turn the whole stick for the switches to be in the right orientation for QBert.

You could probably design something like this with Lazy Suzan bearings (red/green) and a lever arm to switch between 0 and 45 degrees.

The fixed side of each Lazy Susan (red) is attached to the wood, the other side (green) rotates with the stick

You'll need 4 screws with threaded inserts (or tee nuts) -- tight enough to eliminate wiggle, loose enough for the bearings to still turn.

Also, add a magnetic stop on each side ***not the top*** of the lever arm so the stick stays exactly where it belongs.

You could also try a version with only the top Lazy Susan bearing, but they usually aren't designed to hang upside-down like that. 


Scott

[yamatetsu]

I would use two pieces of wood that connect via dowels. The idea is to make a disc that the joystick is mounted to which is set on a plate with dowels. To rotate the joystick, lift the disc, rotate it and put it back onto the dowels.

- cut a square piece of wood and cut out a circle in the middle that is big enough to let the whole joystick including the wiring go through

- drill eight holes and put dowels in



This will be mounted under the CP, the dowels facing up.

- cut a circle out of the CP. This has to be big enough that the joystick can be mounted to it and there has to be space for eight holes corresponding to the dowels of the square piece.

- drill eight holes corresponding to the dowel locations, don't drill the holes completely through, otherwise they will be visible later

- drill a hole in the middle of the disc so that the joystick shaft can go through it

So now you have a disc that can be put onto the dowels of the square piece. In order to be able to lift the disc, either the holes on the underside of the disc have to be made a little bit bigger or the part of the dowels that sticks out has to be sanded a bit at the sides so that they become thinner.

The underside of the disc looks like this :



It will probably a challenge to mount the square plate exactly right under the CP and have the dowels and the corresponding holes in the disc line up perfectly, but it should work.

[GeoMan]

Or you can buy an Ultrastick 360 which you can mount normally and program through software to act as you like: 2-way, 4-way, 4-way diagonal, 8-way, full analog, ...

[yotsuya]

Or you can buy an Ultrastick 360 which you can mount normally and program through software to act as you like: 2-way, 4-way, 4-way diagonal, 8-way, full analog, ...

This,  man. So much this.

[Laythe]

I play QBert with an 8-way stick unrotated.  You can map the inputs in MAME such that up = up+right, right = right+down, etc. 

The result isn't 100% perfect, as you have to hit the corner of the 8-way restrictor and close both switches to get the input in the game, but it's pretty playable.  Certainly good enough for me.

[Titchgamer]

I play QBert with an 8-way stick unrotated.  You can map the inputs in MAME such that up = up+right, right = right+down, etc. 

The result isn't 100% perfect, as you have to hit the corner of the 8-way restrictor and close both switches to get the input in the game, but it's pretty playable.  Certainly good enough for me.

This is what I do to.
You dont have the 4 way restriction but if you have a square or octagonal gate works fine.

Set up to up & right, down to down & left,
Right to down & right and left to left & up
(Think thats right...)
And you are good to go!

[Willard_Bones]

Or you can buy an Ultrastick 360 which you can mount normally and program through software to act as you like: 2-way, 4-way, 4-way diagonal, 8-way, full analog, ...

  Can you elaborate on this?  You've got my attention!

[Willard_Bones]

I play QBert with an 8-way stick unrotated.  You can map the inputs in MAME such that up = up+right, right = right+down, etc. 

The result isn't 100% perfect, as you have to hit the corner of the 8-way restrictor and close both switches to get the input in the game, but it's pretty playable.  Certainly good enough for me.

This is what I do to.
You dont have the 4 way restriction but if you have a square or octagonal gate works fine.

Set up to up & right, down to down & left,
Right to down & right and left to left & up
(Think thats right...)
And you are good to go!

  This is along the lines I was thinking.  By rotating the joystick 45 degrees, when the restrictor plate is in 4-way mode, it allows diagonal movement.  When it is in 8-way mode, it still works for Robotron.

  Of course, all the switches are rotated too, but I can just handle that when mapping the controls.  With this approach, I'm hoping it would work without having to make the mount for the joystick movable.

[Titchgamer]

It wont allow diagonal movement in 4 way, just 8 way.

4 way restricts the stick to 4 directions - up, down, left, right.
So for it to work "diagonally" you would have to rotate the stick 45 degrees.

Which would then bugger you up playing games like pac man etc.

By using the diagonals in 8 way mode you can leave all the other 4 and 8 way games standard and just modify the config for q-bert which is how my system is set up.

[GeoMan]

Or you can buy an Ultrastick 360 which you can mount normally and program through software to act as you like: 2-way, 4-way, 4-way diagonal, 8-way, full analog, ...

  Can you elaborate on this?  You've got my attention!

You can buy the Ultrastick 360 from Ultimarc http://ultimarc.com/ultrastik_info.html

The joystick is analog and doesn't use the normal switches as it's operation is based on a magnet at the center of the joystick - that means less moving parts and less maintenance needed.

You use the Ultramap software to create "maps" which define how the joystick responds to movement - you can block certain directions, make other directions more sensitive, you can make sharp or soft changes to direction, e.t.c.



These "maps" can be assigned automatically based on the MAME game you load or you can load them manually. You can also add a restrictor if you like, a longer shaft or a harder spring.

I have 3 of them and i no longer worry about specific joysticks for specific games.

[Willard_Bones]

It wont allow diagonal movement in 4 way, just 8 way.

4 way restricts the stick to 4 directions - up, down, left, right.
So for it to work "diagonally" you would have to rotate the stick 45 degrees.

Which would then bugger you up playing games like pac man etc.

By using the diagonals in 8 way mode you can leave all the other 4 and 8 way games standard and just modify the config for q-bert which is how my system is set up.

  I think I'm not explaining it right... 

  I plan to have two 4/8-way joysticks.  Using both to play Robotron.  The right-hand one would be mounted normally.  It can be switched to 4-way for Pac-Man and similar games.  The left-hand one would be mounted at 45 degrees.  That way, when restricted to 4-way operation, it would be diagonal for QBert.  When set on 8-way, it should be fine for Robotron.

  Maybe that makes sense.  Or, maybe _I'm_ missing something! 

  Lots of great suggestions in this thread!  Keep 'em coming!  I try to over-think things _before_ I build them.  Extra planning helps to avoid mistakes.

[yotsuya]

You are overthinking it. U360 or set the mapping in Mame on a regular eight way. Do not rotate the joystick 45°. You'll ---fudgesicle--- everything up, and won't be happy.

[Laythe]

  I think I'm not explaining it right... 

  I plan to have two 4/8-way joysticks.  Using both to play Robotron.  The right-hand one would be mounted normally.  It can be switched to 4-way for Pac-Man and similar games.  The left-hand one would be mounted at 45 degrees.  That way, when restricted to 4-way operation, it would be diagonal for QBert.  When set on 8-way, it should be fine for Robotron.

  Maybe that makes sense.  Or, maybe _I'm_ missing something! 

I'll take a stab at explaining. 

Most joysticks have 4 switches in them.

A "4-way" stick lets you mechanically close one of them at a time.
An "8-way" stick lets you mechanically close two of them at a time, when you hit the corners.

If you mount the stick like most people do, at 0' of rotation, those switches are "up", "down", "left", "right".
An 8-way lets you get "up" and "right" together.

If you rotate that 45', like Q-bert, your "up" switch means the stick moved up-and-right.  (Or maybe up-and-left, I can't remember which twist it uses.)

I will henceforth call that switch "UR" for UpRight.

Q-bert in the original uses a 4-way mounted so the switches are "UL", "UR", "DL" and "DR".   The game responds with those movements when it sees the respective switch close.  It expects only one switch at a time can be closed.

You are proposing mounting an 8-way stick rotated like Q-bert.

That means your switches are UL, UR, DL and DR.  But because it's an 8-way, you can also hit the "corners" - which are now the cardinal directions.
So when you push right on your 45' 8-way, you are electrically signalling UR+DR, and you want that to mean, "Right".


You would have a really hard time getting Robotron - which expects one input going high to mean "right" - that UR+DR means that.  And simultaneously, that when you send one input high, "UR", that you want it to respond as though it saw the "right" input and the "up" input closed. 

See the problem now?

[mahuti]

I second or third or whatever the U360s. There are a lot of options for them, like rotary add-on, bat-tops, longer shafts, harder spring.

The only gripe I might have on the U360 is that it (out of the box) has a pretty light touch. Which you can fix with the harder spring. That said though, once configured, you don't have to explain anything to anyone else playing. It just changes the map when you enter a specified game. Has a good feel for 4-way, 8-way and diagonal, and can run as an analog stick which makes games like Sinistar or Pigskin a lot easier to play.

If you have a purist cabinet with a really specific feel in mind, it's not optimal. But for the simplest and most flexible option, nothing beats it in my opinion. GroovyGameGear's 49way controller was pretty good, but the decent 49-way sticks that work best with it (if I recall correctly) aren't made anymore. Plus, like I said, the other options on the Ultrastik make it a good option.

Anyway, a dedicated 4-way diagonal is cool too if that's your thing. It'll feel more legit with the hard corners.

[Willard_Bones]

  I think I'm not explaining it right... 

  I plan to have two 4/8-way joysticks.  Using both to play Robotron.  The right-hand one would be mounted normally.  It can be switched to 4-way for Pac-Man and similar games.  The left-hand one would be mounted at 45 degrees.  That way, when restricted to 4-way operation, it would be diagonal for QBert.  When set on 8-way, it should be fine for Robotron.

  Maybe that makes sense.  Or, maybe _I'm_ missing something! 

I'll take a stab at explaining. 

Most joysticks have 4 switches in them.

A "4-way" stick lets you mechanically close one of them at a time.
An "8-way" stick lets you mechanically close two of them at a time, when you hit the corners.

If you mount the stick like most people do, at 0' of rotation, those switches are "up", "down", "left", "right".
An 8-way lets you get "up" and "right" together.

If you rotate that 45', like Q-bert, your "up" switch means the stick moved up-and-right.  (Or maybe up-and-left, I can't remember which twist it uses.)

I will henceforth call that switch "UR" for UpRight.

Q-bert in the original uses a 4-way mounted so the switches are "UL", "UR", "DL" and "DR".   The game responds with those movements when it sees the respective switch close.  It expects only one switch at a time can be closed.

You are proposing mounting an 8-way stick rotated like Q-bert.

That means your switches are UL, UR, DL and DR.  But because it's an 8-way, you can also hit the "corners" - which are now the cardinal directions.
So when you push right on your 45' 8-way, you are electrically signalling UR+DR, and you want that to mean, "Right".


You would have a really hard time getting Robotron - which expects one input going high to mean "right" - that UR+DR means that.  And simultaneously, that when you send one input high, "UR", that you want it to respond as though it saw the "right" input and the "up" input closed. 

See the problem now?

Ah HA!  Thanks so much!  _Now_ I understand!  That's probably what some of the other posters were trying to tell me.  Yes, I see why rotating the 4/8-way wouldn't work.  I was assuming 8 switches. 

  Thanks to everyone for the advice, and the group effort to make me understand!

[Laythe]

See the problem now?

Ah HA!  Thanks so much!  _Now_ I understand!  That's probably what some of the other posters were trying to tell me.  Yes, I see why rotating the 4/8-way wouldn't work.  I was assuming 8 switches. 

  Thanks to everyone for the advice, and the group effort to make me understand!

Sure thing!  Glad to help.


Extra credit portion:

So you may be wondering, wait, with everything I said above, how the heck do you play Q-Bert with an 8-way unrotated stick, then?

The answer is:  Q-Bert is expecting one switch input that says "move up-and-right".  MAME is just smart enough about mapping inputs that you can tell it that that switch is a key combination, and there's two keys that need to be held for it to apply.  Set that combo to "up"+"right", your two physical switches on a non-rotated 8-way, and it works.

Set that way,  up (alone) means nothing, right (alone) means nothing, but up+right is a key combo that means the "up-and-right" switch.  Similar for the other diagonals.  That actually works.  It's not 100% perfect feeling, you get the input when the second switch closes, in whichever order they fired as you hit the corner of your restrictor, but it works pretty well.

It's an edge case of what mame configs allow.  Mame doesn't do a full matrix of every possible input state to every possible output state, which is what you'd need to demux your initially proposed rotated-8-way back into Robotron.