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Author Topic: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID  (Read 3331 times)

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mahuti

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #80 on: April 14, 2017, 02:49:48 pm »
Personally I've been training hard to get up to 120 button presses per second... I couldn't understand until now why I was starting to hit the wall even with so much training.

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pixel

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #81 on: April 14, 2017, 06:00:07 pm »
I dont see his words as having any sense of negative intent.

 If anything, he was being challenged,  with sarcasm, and in a negative way.

 Im curious out the lag issues.   Some of the hardest and fastest games,  require fraction-of-second time-frames.
Any delay at all.. can be the difference between a record breaking score... or a sad melt-down, with constant failures, that really were not fault of your own.


 I think the sensitivity here is way too touchy,  IMO.

 Let go of the personal emotional attachments,  to free yourself from attack / victim  status...  and pave a greater path to deeper truths, and overall, better playing experiences.

mahuti

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #82 on: April 14, 2017, 08:29:13 pm »
Quote
I dont see his words as having any sense of negative intent.

 If anything, he was being challenged,  with sarcasm, and in a negative way.

Not at first. But it went off the rails pretty fast.

Quote
I think the sensitivity here is way too touchy,  IMO.

I took about ten years off of this board and on my rrecent return, I've been a little concerned about the interactions with some new folks. But I've seen plenty of good too. In any case... I find it useful and interesting still.

All I know is that the OPs first response included a "bro" comment. I knew it would go downhill from there.
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ark_ader

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #83 on: April 15, 2017, 05:00:32 am »
We don't have proof of anything in this thread besides your word (and a shoddy YouTube vid)! Until someone here takes on the effort of confirming your findings, it's all just wind.

I'm just saying, you're hellbent on disproving this $10 device, and are super defensive if anyone even questions your findings. That's not good science man.

I'm sorry to hear you're disabled and lonely. I'm not sure what your disability is, but all signs point to something mentally influencing your interaction with people. Perhaps if you didn't come off so defensive and confrontational from the get-go, perhaps you'd be less lonely? Or if anything people would take you more seriously. Food for thought.

That was pretty harsh.  The OP was making a point, and we can either use the information or take it like a pinch of salt.  I'll throw a wizbanger in here and say that one of the reasons why xgaming has had so much business, is due to the Ultimarc's original encoders. Xgaming's recent and updated controllers produce zero lag, but I am not going to find an oscilloscope, and do a comparison.  That is not my ball of wax, but I have used both, and I know that the xgaming encoder is superior, as is their customer service. 

There seems to be a bit of tension in the air from usual gang of three posters on this board, that need to rein in their comments a bit.  I like a good laugh and poke with a sharp stick like the next guy, but we need to be mindful of other people's feelings.  This is BYOAC and not KLOV.  Reading that thread was hard going.

If oomek is reading, I hope no hard feelings, regarding the in-depth analysis of encoder boards, which I found very interesting and informative.  Thank you.  :cheers:
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Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #84 on: April 15, 2017, 05:43:36 am »
Coming from the guy who called me stupid. Get off your high horse Ark.

ark_ader

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #85 on: April 15, 2017, 06:24:06 am »
Coming from the guy who called me stupid.

Obviously the shoe fits really well, Mike and you wear it expertly. Unfortunately for all to see.  ::)
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #86 on: April 15, 2017, 06:49:32 am »
You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

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TapeWormInYourGut

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #87 on: April 15, 2017, 10:08:00 am »
You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

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That can't be true... doing something of such low class, and of all places, coming from a member on this board?  :blank:

Honestly I thought this place was a fun hobbyist place to be. Guess I haven't been here long enough.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 10:09:45 am by TapeWormInYourGut »

Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #88 on: April 15, 2017, 10:13:44 am »
He is about the only guy. Mostly everyone else is friendly. I just get ornery when someone is an obvious jerk.

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pbj

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2017, 09:07:00 pm »
Narcissists, all of you.




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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #90 on: April 16, 2017, 12:30:42 am »
You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
That can't be true... doing something of such low class, and of all places, coming from a member on this board?  :blank:

Honestly I thought this place was a fun hobbyist place to be. Guess I haven't been here long enough.

It was all true but an interesting side note to that story was not told.  The client got a 40" TV and Xbone and a bunch of games as a replacement.  So not all doom and gloom, except maybe he did get doom (which is a sucky game).  Xbox is a far better gaming experience than Mame.  Nice to see the stupid comments the people on this board make are consistent.

Keep digging that hole Mike and let us know when you get to China.

Happy Easter!
"I really do feel pity for those who go out of their way to perform a personal slight, than taking the effort in joining the conversation and creating some useful dialogue which would benefit the persons' perusal of this topic.  Yet where would we be without the persistant antagonist?"

Titchgamer

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #91 on: April 16, 2017, 03:16:20 am »
You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
That can't be true... doing something of such low class, and of all places, coming from a member on this board?  :blank:

Honestly I thought this place was a fun hobbyist place to be. Guess I haven't been here long enough.

It was all true but an interesting side note to that story was not told.  The client got a 40"
TV and Xbone and a bunch of games as a replacement.  So not all doom and gloom, except maybe he did get doom (which is a sucky game).  Xbox is a far better gaming experience than Mame.  Nice to see the stupid comments the people on this board make are consistent.

Keep digging that hole Mike and let us know when you get to China.

Happy Easter!

Go hang your head in shame!

Doom is awesome and MAME offers more fun games that XBone!

Why are you here!?



pbj

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #92 on: April 16, 2017, 08:11:51 am »
I believe the addendum exactly as much as I believe the original story.


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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #93 on: April 16, 2017, 08:17:21 am »
Swapping a mame cab for a console kinda changes everything in that story... I thought it was dumped out of spite or just to be an a-hole. If a cab isn't being played much, then I see no problem with swapping it with something that will be played. That's how arcades operate. I'm sure the guy who received the mame cab was happy.

I will always enjoy the classics due to nostalgia and their impact on me at the time. I'll also never memorize a game's in-and-outs like I did back in the day. However, I am not someone who condemns modern games just because they are of a different platform, and I don't care if someone prefers them. 

:cheers:

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2017, 08:58:25 am »
Swapping a mame cab for a console kinda changes everything in that story... I thought it was dumped out of spite or just to be an a-hole. If a cab isn't being played much, then I see no problem with swapping it with something that will be played. That's how arcades operate. I'm sure the guy who received the mame cab was happy.

I will always enjoy the classics due to nostalgia and their impact on me at the time. I'll also never memorize a game's in-and-outs like I did back in the day. However, I am not someone who condemns modern games just because they are of a different platform, and I don't care if someone prefers them. 

:cheers:

They didnt get rid because nobody played it.
They got rid because Ark told the boss it breached copyright and then felt "smug" after it was removed.

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2017, 10:07:37 am »
Incidentally I recently visited a client's game room at his place of business which had a proper mame machine installed. I told him it was illegal to have it, and he promptly removed it and took it back to his house (at the dismay of his employees), which I admit I felt rather smug about.
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CheffoJeffo

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2017, 01:30:44 pm »
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ark_ader

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #97 on: April 18, 2017, 02:18:47 am »
It doesn't matter what happened to the mame machine, as it went back into storage.  What matters to me, is the fact that a disabled forum member, made a test to determine the states of latency on some commercial encoders.  I found it informative and hoped to learn more on the subject.

What the original poster got back was truly shocking to the point that Saint had to interject.  It seems that this hobby is dying very slowly and now the rot is setting in.  The rot I refer to is the people on this board, who feel compelled to post a nasty remark, then get all defensive when the are taken to book about it.

I do have an opinion that is not shared by most of you, and it is basic ethics.  I know the difference between black and white, where most of you exist in the gray.  I was once like you, downloading all those abandonware, until I got first hand experience of a software development firm, going bust due to piracy, and it changed my view on the industry.  Now I have that stance, which those who play in the gray, throw stones at.  I love how you children vent, and I do admit I find it hillarious at times.  But when you start taunting and abusing a disabled person on this board, becomes a whole different ballgame.  I find such behavior disgusting and not merited anywhere on the internet.

If you want to vent at someone,  direct it at me.  Post the childish quotes, and the general idiotic hate at me. Just don't target the innocent.  How about you just thinking it and not posting such poison.  I'll keep on trying to rebuild my stargate (time permitting) and post my infinite wisdom, for all to benefit from. Deal?
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opt2not

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #98 on: April 18, 2017, 12:01:14 pm »
^ Riiiiight...



dkersten

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #99 on: April 18, 2017, 07:07:09 pm »
What matters to me, is the fact that a disabled forum member, made a test to determine the states of latency on some commercial encoders.  I found it informative and hoped to learn more on the subject.

What the original poster got back was truly shocking to the point that Saint had to interject. 
I just read this thread, and frankly, the guy came in posting some results that I immediately questioned in my own mind, was called out on exactly the sorts of things I was thinkin by someone who admittedly is not the best politician, and retorted as if he was a genius and everyone else was a complete idiot.  Not only was the response the furthest from shocking as it could be, the drama was somewhat enjoyable, at least right up until the OP played a disability card and ran home crying.  You of all people should recognize that the response he got was fairly mild compared to the sort of hell this board can lay on someone who comes in talking out his ass.

As for the test, he never established a baseline latency so the 11ms difference between the measured latency of the ZD vs the ipac is relative to nothing.  If there is 100ms of inherent latency in the chain from the PC's bus to the monitor's output to begin with, then 11 more ms is fairly insignificant.  "OMG, it's 10% slower and 500% less expensive!"  But throw in the latency of the human reaction system which measures on average around a quarter of a second (250ms) from sight to muscle movement, and that 11ms is now maybe 2-3% of a factor in the average person.  It's all relative, and frankly even in the best possible case the difference in performance doesn't qualify one as a pile of excrement and the other as the clear choice.  It simply means that one should command a price premium over the other, which it does.  Congratulations to the OP, you discovered that the more expensive controller is better.

Just for fun, try this link: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
I realize it probably doesn't take into account the latency of the monitor, the latency of the USB controller (or wireless if you have a cordless mouse), or even the latency added by the browser, but it gives you a pretty good idea of how fast your reaction time is in a similar environment to a game.  How many people here are able to consistently hit 200ms?  How about 150ms?  Or 50ms?  And this test is for ONE motor movement.. a simple click.  Imagine if you had to not only react, but also decide which direction of 8 possible directions to react.  How much latency would that decision add?  20ms?  50ms?  Whatever the case, add that 11ms difference in controllers to your score and then divide the total back into your score.  That gives you an idea of the performance level of the $10 part compared to the $50 part.  For me it is around 96% as fast but I am fairly slow with a 250ms reaction time.  If my budget were 5x smaller, then I guess to me 5% loss in performance is a pretty good trade off. 

The whole premise of the test, while potentially interesting as an exercise in benchmarking, was not just flawed from the start, but his results were also impossible to defend.  I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did before melting down.

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #100 on: April 18, 2017, 09:36:22 pm »
The rot I refer to is the people on this board, who feel compelled to post a nasty remark, then get all defensive when the are taken to book about it.

Obviously the shoe fits really well, Mike and you wear it expertly. Unfortunately for all to see.  ::)

Nice to see the stupid comments the people on this board make are consistent.

Your post is completely stupid and I think you were an idiot posting it

Not only will you be more informed, but you will not look like a childish idiot (the kindest observation I can make of you and your compatriots, without lowering myself to your level). 

You sound like a true moron now.

you are an idiot.

I am not making any intentional slights against you with these comments

Are you calling me a liar?

Perhaps I should explain myself like an adult does to a child.

I used to have this "stick up the bum" for ripping off copyrighted material
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jimmer

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2017, 07:14:12 am »
Quote from: dkersten
If there is 100ms of inherent latency in the chain from the PC's bus to the monitor's output to begin with, then 11 more ms is fairly insignificant.
Well, yes, if you are running a terribly laggy system then you won't notice an extra bit of lag. But some of us are aiming for better than that.

Quote from: dkersten
...... How many people here are able to consistently hit 200ms?  ....  Whatever the case, add that 11ms difference in controllers to your score and then divide the total back into your score.
I don't play reaction time games, I play Defender. There is a moving object on screen and I time my shot to hit it. If my shot lags by a frame that is noticeable to me.

I want my whole system to be within 5 or 10ms of the arcade machine, as I think that's when (some) people start to notice the difference.


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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2017, 10:58:03 am »
Well, you get what you pay for. I don't think most people are going to notice the lag, but if you want something better the IPAC series is definitely better (and much more expensive  :angry:).

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2017, 02:12:21 pm »
If my shot lags by a frame that is noticeable to me.

ya gotta aim for the meat of 'er

if a frame is the only thing between you hitting a slowly vertically moving sprite and missing you need to aim better. enemies don't move at 7 pixels per frame.

jimmer

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2017, 03:14:55 pm »
ya gotta aim for the meat of 'er

if a frame is the only thing between you hitting a slowly vertically moving sprite and missing you need to aim better. enemies don't move at 7 pixels per frame.

there was a reason I said 'noticeable' rather than bad or game spoiling. The relationship between lag and performance (score) is probably complex. In the timed shot example my brain might easily adapt to small amounts of input lag.

I've just realised that I can easily test this if I want to,  I can program my encoder so eg the 2player button cycles through different amounts of encoder delay 0ms > 17ms > 34ms > 50ms  > 0ms




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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #105 on: April 19, 2017, 04:39:27 pm »
there was a reason I said 'noticeable' rather than bad or game spoiling. The relationship between lag and performance (score) is probably complex. In the timed shot example my brain might easily adapt to small amounts of input lag.

I've just realised that I can easily test this if I want to,  I can program my encoder so eg the 2player button cycles through different amounts of encoder delay 0ms > 17ms > 34ms > 50ms  > 0ms

That'd be an interesting test.  Though, given the response Oomek got to posting the results of an interesting test, I could understand thinking twice before posting your findings here - make sure you're prepared to weather the reaction.

I think that lag is cumulative.  You've got some milliseconds from the encoder.  You've got some ms from the USB bus.  You've got some ms from the OS input polling rate.  I think you've got some ms introduced by emulation overhead, and you've optionally got some ms introduced by waiting for vsync because we're not beam racing anymore, you've potentially got some from multiple frame buffering, and then you may have some milliseconds within your display itself.  All of that is additive, and removing some anywhere you can is going to reduce the total. 

I'd expect different people have different sensitivities to it.  If the amount your setup has is below your personal threshold of noticing, awesome, more power to you, you'll have fun.  If your setup is above your threshold of perception, it's going to annoy you.

I would say the best outcome of that would be to let the people who really care hash it out and benchmark things and advance the state of that art, and if you don't really care, ignore it.  I would think that a community that has Very Strong Opinions about frontends, LCD vs CRT, leafs versus microswitches, the best feel in 4 and 8 way sticks, and on, and on, and on - would be able to do that.

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #106 on: April 20, 2017, 05:25:08 am »
Further reading for those looking to lose the lag: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=133194.msg1370641.msg#1370641

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