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Author Topic: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID  (Read 3041 times)

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oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2017, 08:26:59 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many arcade PCBs have 1 frame of lag, too? Wouldn't the introduction of one frame lag make it more authentic?  :D

Not that I, personally, care about a delay of 1/24th of a second (still, good work, op!)...

Yes, and it's called a sprite buffer, many games have it. I measured the lag on game that does not have the sprite buffer on the service screen, so the only variable here is the hardware, not emulation.

Haze

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #41 on: March 28, 2017, 08:51:47 am »
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many arcade PCBs have 1 frame of lag, too? Wouldn't the introduction of one frame lag make it more authentic?  :D

Not that I, personally, care about a delay of 1/24th of a second (still, good work, op!)...

Not sure if you're joking or not but..

The sprite buffers get emulated, it's often needed to keep them in sync with other parts of the game (backgrounds, internal hitboxes etc.) otherwise you get video rendering glitches.

So we're talking about an extra frame of input lag on top of that ;-)


oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2017, 09:01:36 am »
Not sure what kind of 1 frame input lag you are talking about. There is a variable 1 frame lag on every game that has a static framerate. The lag depends on when during a frame you press a button. I always measure the minimum lag possible. so that's why I take as many measurements as possible.

So for a 60hz game you get the following lag values:
Minimum: 5ms
Maximum 5ms + 16,6ms
Average: 5ms + 8,33ms

Is that what you meant?

ChurchOfSolipsism

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2017, 10:21:38 am »
I don't really know much about arcade technology, I just remember reading that, among others, many Cave games (Mushihimesama etc.) have 1 frame of lag. You can even select it in the menues of some Xbox 360 versions (and also set it to zero). I had no idea of how this one frame made it into the games, so I'm grateful for the info.

oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2017, 07:36:58 pm »
Fianlly I got my IPAC2 today, so I did some comparison straight away with my app as promised.

IPAC 2 lags behind Arduino 0-6 ms
Zero Delay lags behind Arduino 0-28ms

Those last 2 values are most likely polling times of those 2 encoders.

So I have the right now to sustain my statement that Zero Delay encoder is worthless.

Nephasth

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2017, 08:11:59 pm »
Great... Now what am I going to do with this bag full of Zero Delay Encoders? :dunno
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pbj

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2017, 08:26:13 pm »
Oomek leads a lonely life.

oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2017, 08:39:27 pm »
Having a laugh about disabled person who actually IS lonely is a bit inappropriate, don't you think? If you do not have anything constructive to write on the subject don't write at all.

pbj

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2017, 08:49:35 pm »
Have you tried a Xin Mo?

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2017, 09:04:17 pm »
oomek, thanks for your tests, i was wondering what your final recommendation for the least laggy encoder is, or is there more testing to do?   :)

Quote from: Nephasth
ZD's have their place...

quite.

typed using my...

CheffoJeffo

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2017, 09:29:33 pm »
Having a laugh about disabled person who actually IS lonely is a bit inappropriate, don't you think? If you do not have anything constructive to write on the subject don't write at all.

To be fair, you've been a bit of a ---tallywhacker--- about things. I haven't seen any mention about your disability or your being lonely (for which you do have my sympathies), but if I had, then yeah, pbj's remarks would be inappropriate. But, then again, pbj gonna pbj, so no surprises there.

FWIW, I dig when people rip things apart and do the quantitative analysis. But if you are going to slag and play smarter than everybody else, best to do it like kowal or Tiger-Heli ... or even that KevSteele guy (although I hear he's off worrying about apostrophes and stuff). More facts than conclusions works better with this crowd.

There's always someone smarter than you are and the people who objected to your methods weren't wrong in doing so.

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Nephasth

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2017, 09:38:35 pm »
Quote from: Nephasth
ZD's have their place...

quite.



Stand alone controllers built for next to nothing... http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131366
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CheffoJeffo

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2017, 09:48:47 pm »
The whole "worthless" and "belong in the toilet" conclusions are personal. Not necessarily wrong (for you), but personal. Not understanding the difference cheapens the work put in to analysis (as does making conclusions *before* conducting the experiment).

You may not want to use ZD encoders. I wouldn't bother using them. I already know what works for me.

Does not mean that they don't have their place and that you are smarter than everybody else.

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adder

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2017, 10:00:18 pm »
joking aside i did very much enjoy getting and using a zero delay encoder from vigo when he was selling them here on this forum.  the main thing being that the price was very cool.  however, that was 5 and a half years ago - myself personally i wouldn't use one today, but in their day i thought they were ace.  now though i have moved onto keyboard encoders and won't ever go back to a joystick encoder, but each to their own, and i respect all fellow arcade freaks out there. always.   :)
typed using my...

yotsuya

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2017, 10:02:06 pm »
The ones I got from Vigo were fine. The ones from eBay... not so much.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

morton

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2017, 10:07:18 pm »
The ones I got from Vigo were fine. The ones from eBay... not so much.

How can one tell the difference between the various ZD Boards?

yotsuya

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2017, 10:08:41 pm »
The ones I got from Vigo were fine. The ones from eBay... not so much.

How can one tell the difference between the various ZD Boards?
Anything you buy now isn't any good.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

adder

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2017, 10:31:40 pm »
oomek if you are interested i have an original first run 'vigo' ZD board if you want it to do whatever you like with

you dont have to pay shipping and you dont have to return it  (i'm in uk and i noticed in your profile you are also in the uk)
typed using my...

pbj

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2017, 10:40:12 pm »
Maybe I'm a little confused here, but my recollection is I sacrificed my wallet on a Xin Mo encoder, found it to be fine, and then Vigo started inexplicably hustling them as "Vigo encoders."  When I look at pictures, these boards are not the same as zero delays,

 :dunno

Nephasth

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2017, 10:44:43 pm »
Maybe I'm a little confused here, but my recollection is I sacrificed my wallet on a Xin Mo encoder, found it to be fine, and then Vigo started inexplicably hustling them as "Vigo encoders."  When I look at pictures, these boards are not the same as zero delays,

 :dunno

The one pictured in the first post looks just like the one I first got from Vigo. Last year, at bandcamp Zapcon, he gave me a bag full of later ZD stuff/boards that look different.

Maybe Vigo can chime in and clear things up.
%Bartop

oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2017, 06:40:09 am »
Have you tried a Xin Mo?

No I haven't as I don't own one but If you are willing to donate a spare one to have it tested you are more than welcome.

oomek, thanks for your tests, i was wondering what your final recommendation for the least laggy encoder is, or is there more testing to do?   :)

I have tested only 2 encoders so far, so can't tell for sure. But I believe that my final recomendation would be Teensy 3.0 with a sketch polling hid events at unrestricted rate.

oomek if you are interested i have an original first run 'vigo' ZD board if you want it to do whatever you like with

you dont have to pay shipping and you dont have to return it  (i'm in uk and i noticed in your profile you are also in the uk)

Are you suggesting that my ZD may be a clone of a cheap ZD? If this is the case I'm more than happy to compare it against the rest.


oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2017, 06:50:20 am »

FWIW, I dig when people rip things apart and do the quantitative analysis. But if you are going to slag and play smarter than everybody else, best to do it like kowal or Tiger-Heli ... or even that KevSteele guy (although I hear he's off worrying about apostrophes and stuff). More facts than conclusions works better with this crowd.

There's always someone smarter than you are and the people who objected to your methods weren't wrong in doing so.

 :afro:

I'm neither trying to play smarter, nor I feel like one, but when I see an evident cattle excrement denying the basics of any subject I'm familiar with I do not hide my opinions about it.

The whole "worthless" and "belong in the toilet" conclusions are personal. Not necessarily wrong (for you), but personal. Not understanding the difference cheapens the work put in to analysis (as does making conclusions *before* conducting the experiment).

You may not want to use ZD encoders. I wouldn't bother using them. I already know what works for me.

Does not mean that they don't have their place and that you are smarter than everybody else.

 :oldman
I sometimes rush my opinions and I'm aware of it, but I straightened it up, didn't I? You got the data, and the numbers are not personal opinion, they are data stating the obvious.
What is wrong with warning people about not making the same mistake as I did?

opt2not

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2017, 11:38:04 am »
I'm neither trying to play smarter, nor I feel like one, but when I see an evident cattle excrement denying the basics of any subject I'm familiar with I do not hide my opinions about it.
But you are partially familiar with the subject though, and coming off like a real ---tallywhacker--- about it. You haven't done your research to verify you have a proper ZD encoder, whether it be a later generation or knockoff board. It's definitely not an original run. You haven't tested the alternatives to put out the opinion of avoiding this option over the others. You're claiming science and telling us to avoid this when you haven't even fully researched.


oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2017, 01:58:59 pm »
I tested it and confirmed at the end, so just let it go. Besides You have no proof that my ZD is a clone. Do you have any information you can share to back up your theory?

opt2not

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2017, 02:08:02 pm »
We don't have proof of anything in this thread besides your word (and a shoddy YouTube vid)! Until someone here takes on the effort of confirming your findings, it's all just wind.

I'm just saying, you're hellbent on disproving this $10 device, and are super defensive if anyone even questions your findings. That's not good science man.

I'm sorry to hear you're disabled and lonely. I'm not sure what your disability is, but all signs point to something mentally influencing your interaction with people. Perhaps if you didn't come off so defensive and confrontational from the get-go, perhaps you'd be less lonely? Or if anything people would take you more seriously. Food for thought.

oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2017, 02:13:35 pm »

I'm sorry to hear you're disabled and lonely. I'm not sure what your disability is, but all signs point to something mentally influencing your interaction with people. Perhaps if you didn't come off so defensive and confrontational from the get-go, perhaps you'd be less lonely? Or if anything people would take you more seriously. Food for thought.

It's Fibromyalgia, google it.

Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2017, 02:22:03 pm »
Fibromyalgia doesn't explain why you are a jerk.

Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2017, 02:24:13 pm »
My post is redundant Opt2Not posted while I was typing. I didn't mean to pile on.

oomek

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2017, 03:09:58 pm »
I'm done with that thread. Enjoy your laggy encoders. Don't bother answering, I'm unsubscribing.

Nephasth

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2017, 03:17:03 pm »
Welp, somebody took their ball and went home...
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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2017, 05:22:36 pm »
Thank you for the test.

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2017, 09:02:30 pm »
Please disagree with civility and decorum folks - thanks :)
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Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2017, 06:23:53 am »
The OP was a jerk. People called him out. He hid behind a disability that has nothing to do with his personality. I don't see the problem with confronting that.

Could you be a little more clear as to what was unacceptable?

This is your playground. I want to respect your rules.

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2017, 06:59:09 am »
Well I know it's not going to always be easy or even possible but I'd like folks to keep things civil and friendly even when vehemently disagreeing. I'll curse like a sailor in my private life but we get people from all walks of life here, from young kids to old farts, and more than a few folks for whom English is not their native language where communication can be difficult. The formal rules are here: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html, but it really boils down to Wheaton's Law. :)
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Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2017, 08:41:29 am »
So it seems to mainly be the word I was using to describe him that was the problem. I thought that was a medical term. ;D

I will try my best to remember not to use that term here.

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2017, 09:53:28 am »
Mongoloid?


Mike A

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2017, 10:08:36 am »
No. That word is pretty offensive to many people. The word I used was anatomical, but not part of a man's anatomy. I intimated that he had sand in it. I didn't really think it merited a take down.

bootsector

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2017, 04:23:04 pm »
I'm done with that thread. Enjoy your laggy encoders. Don't bother answering, I'm unsubscribing.
Did you have the chance to test the teensy with the ps3pad-micro firmware?

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #78 on: April 13, 2017, 03:40:52 pm »
EVERY form of input will have delay. it's just how things are.

debounce circuit? delay. (i'm sure you accounted for this in your testing right? ...right? ...probably not)
wire length? delay. (however immeasurably small it is. it's still there)
device polling rate? delay.
USB packet? delay. (not to mention multiple packets)
northbridge bus speed? delay
CPU processing time? delay.
Emulator processing time? delay.
PCIe bus speed? delay
monitor refresh rate? delay.
monitor panel refresh rate? delay.

see where i'm going here? you can't get away from it. it doesn't matter WHAT you use. There will ALWAYS be delay/lag whatever you want to call it. Zero delay was a gimmick name they came up with to get suckers to buy them. it doesn't actually describe it's abilities.

besides...The USB's start of frame packet (11-bit frame) is sent by the host every 1mS +/- 500nS on a full speed bus or every 125 uS +/- 0.0625 uS on a high speed bus... in a perfect zero delay system (assuming everything else had absolutely no delays in transmission at all whatsoever...) it would be impossible to have delay shorter than either 125uS or 1mS (depending on bus speed.) because that's how often the data packets go out.

TapeWormInYourGut

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Re: Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2017, 01:43:49 pm »
The OP was a jerk. People called him out. He hid behind a disability that has nothing to do with his personality. I don't see the problem with confronting that.

Could you be a little more clear as to what was unacceptable?

This is your playground. I want to respect your rules.
But m8, Fibromyalgia causes mood issues.

I wish that I was hardcore enough to have night sweats over 9ms more of a delay. Subtracting 9ms from the total time it takes me to press a button isn't going to help me much.

  
 

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