Zero Delay USB encoders lag measurements - THEY HAVE LAG - AVOID

[oomek]

I bought 2 Zero Delay USB encoders on eBay. And as I'm crazy about Mame lag control I've decided to test if those Zero Delay encoders actually have no lag.
I've recorded a video using my 400fps camera. It's a test screen of Thunder Cross which has no 1 frame sprite buffer delay.

Here is a picture of my setup and a video link.





On the left my reference Arduino encoder. On the right Zero Delay USB encoder. Both are wired to the same button. For most of the time Zero Delay is behind Arduino by 1 frame. Conclusion. Avoid, go for IPAC instead.

[Nephasth]

For when that 1/400th of a second really matters! 

[oomek]

For when that 1/400th of a second really matters! 

I wrote 1 frame, but screen frame not recording, so 16ms bro. I do not have a 400hz monitor.

[pbj]

Are your wires the exact same type (solid/stranded) and length? 

I'm going to need you to measure resistance from the button to each encoder.

[oomek]

Since when the cable length matters? Do you know the speed at which electrons are travelling? I'ts immeasurable in the home environment.
Both Arduino and Zero Lag share +5V on one pin of the button and have pulldown resistors on the input pins.

[Nephasth]

Actually, it is measurable. And the unit of measure is called ohms...

[pbj]

Since when the cable length matters?

When we're analyzing input speed down to 1 frame, that's when.

[oomek]

Ok, I've measured it for you.
From the button to Arduino pin - 0.3-0.4 ohms
From the button to the zero encoder 0.3-0.4 ohms
Closed loop of my multimeter 0.3-0.4 ohms

[oomek]

Zero Delays have internal 10 Mohm pulldown resistors on each input pin anyway.

[oomek]

And as you are so eloquent in electronics you should know that the capacitance of the microcontroller's input pins is so small that the value of the pulldown resistor should not matter.

[oomek]

What's even more, if that was a matter of the pulldown resistor's value you should observe the delay only on the release of the button.

[oomek]

Since when the cable length matters?

When we're analyzing input speed down to 1 frame, that's when.

1 frame of my monitor has 16.66ms. Are you suggesting that it takes 16ms for electrons to travel through the wire ?

I've recorded it in 400fps just for you to see it.

[pbj]

I would argue you need to test the independently of each other with the same wiring, etc, but I think your video i conclusive enough.  To the people that care, use an Arduino.


Ah, well, I see you've posted 4 messages while I was writing this. 

Good luck, kid.

 

[oomek]

I would argue you need to test the independently of each other with the same wiring, etc, but I think your video i conclusive enough.  To the people that care, use an Arduino.


Ah, well, I see you've posted 4 messages while I was writing this. 

Good luck, kid.

 

Kid ? Thank you, I wish I was, as I'm 40 years old.

I do not see the point of you disproving the basics of electronics, what is your point exactly?

[oomek]

I've checked the input of the button again, but this time using the app I wrote in c#. It seems like when a controller appears in the system as HID game controller it's polling rate is quantized to 1 frame. This is why It's better to use an encoder which simulates a keyboard. Mystery solved.

edit: and yes, I'm using a rawhid library.

[pbj]

Yes, that has been known for a long time.

 

[oomek]

Yes, that has been known for a long time.

 

Well, I thought it's a device specific issue. Anyway it only confirms the lag and proves that Zero Delay encoder is inferior to IPAC.

[pbj]

But you didn't test an IPAC?

[oomek]

No, My ipac is on the way, I will update the topic as soon as I get it, but I do not see a reason of why it should act differently than my Arduino compatible board.

[yotsuya]

That's why it cracks me up when people want to spend $300 on LED button & joysticks, and then cheap out on these crappy zero delay encoders.

[pbj]

Don't you think you ought to have it in hand before declaring it's superior?  Lot of folks here switched over from the Ultimarc products.

[oomek]

That's why it cracks me up when people want to spend $300 on LED button & joysticks, and then cheap out on these crappy zero delay encoders.

Thumbs up to that ^

[oomek]

Don't you think you ought to have it in hand before declaring it's superior?  Lot of folks here switched over from the Ultimarc products.

Fair enough. I take my claim back then and put it on hold. It's inferior to my microcontroller on which I've managed to get a total lag from button to screen of 5ms as you can see on the video I attached. Bear in mind my display is not a CRT.

[yotsuya]

Don't you think you ought to have it in hand before declaring it's superior?  Lot of folks here switched over from the Ultimarc products.

I have had both in hand. The Ultimarc products are way superior, it's not even funny.

[mahuti]

I have swappable panels... each with its own iPac or similar. But I like the zero delays for installing direct to the cab to handle basic admin functions, coin inputs, etc. Good for that stuff.

[Nephasth]

ZD's have their place...

[pbj]

Only Ultimarc product I used were the JPACs and my opinion of them is widely known.  (junk)

The zero delay encoder functions fine for me, but I've only used one of them.  I have it mounted on the underside of the control panel and the USB connector falls out far too easily.  Could fix that with hot glue but it is an annoyance.  Joystick encoders in general are too limited, IMO.



 

[oomek]

It's teasing to sacrifice my Teensy 2.0 and use it as an encoder. At least I have total control over the encoding process. I still can cancel my Mini-PAC delivery....very tempting....

[MaxAsh]

Have you tested the Xin Mo encoder, out of curiosity? I had the ZD ones in a build long ago, but with the cost being almost the same for a Xin Mo, I replaced the ZDs with that when I was rebuilding a few things. I'm curious how it stacks up against Ultimarc.

[oomek]

Have you tested the Xin Mo encoder, out of curiosity? I had the ZD ones in a build long ago, but with the cost being almost the same for a Xin Mo, I replaced the ZDs with that when I was rebuilding a few things. I'm curious how it stacks up against Ultimarc.

No unfortunately not, but I read somewhere XinMos are even more laggy. Can't remember the link I'm afraid.

[oomek]

Oh it was here on the forum

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,113432.msg1212763.html#msg1212763

[oomek]

I'm wiring my Teensy 2.0 now to see how it compares to the A-Star board I used for testing from the 1st post.

I dropped it before as a candidate for an encoder as it has 25 digital inputs and I needed 26, but today I realised I can use an analog ins for left/right and up/down pairs and wire it with a resistor network. I do not need simultaneous left and right do i ?

[MaxAsh]

Oh it was here on the forum
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,113432.msg1212763.html#msg1212763

Interesting. I've experienced no noticeable delay with my Xin Mo. Reading through additional posts in that thread, it seems others haven't had issues either. Perhaps there is simply too much variance in the setups (computer used, etc.) that can come into play. In comparing to some of the actual arcade cabinets I have as well (DK, Pac, etc.) overall I'd say it does a great job emulating without noticeable delay in controls.

Good luck with your testing!

[oomek]

I agree, you would need to do a comparison with some known low lag device like I did with A-Star and record it with high speed camera.

[oomek]

I'm planning to post some guide explaining how to get that total 5ms latency in mame on a LCD as it makes me cry when I see people playing arcade games on a RP with 80-100ms lag. It's not an arcade anymore but more likely a RTS, click and pray game.

[bootsector]

Would you mind to test this flashed to your Teensy 2.0 board?

https://github.com/bootsector/PS3PadMicro

It works on PCs and PS3.

Thanks

[morton]

I would first like to commend the OP for performing an actual test and not basing his opinion on pure speculation without anything to back it up.

What I do take issue with is declaring something to be junk, when it hasn't been compared to the competition. It would be much more constructive to see how it compares to the others on the market. The OP should have collected 3-4 different models and done further comparison to see where each fall on the spectrum. This would give people much more useful information - being able to compare it - rather than just accepting a test with variables that some may or may not agree with. Just my $0.02.

[oomek]

Would you mind to test this flashed to your Teensy 2.0 board?

https://github.com/bootsector/PS3PadMicro

It works on PCs and PS3.

Thanks

I've had a lot of headache today with my Teensy board. It somehow refused to work. It was working few monts ago, so out of desperation I dowgnraded the IDE and Teensy loader and it started working again. It seems like I bought a counterfeit Teensy is a fraction of a ms behind A-Star and I do not know if being a counterfeit somehow affects that. I'm done for today, will try your sketch tomorrow.

[baritonomarchetto]

Zero delay doesn't mean zero lag, as you noticed

One additional frame lag is A LOT, if you keep in mind that emulators loose another frame di-per-se.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many arcade PCBs have 1 frame of lag, too? Wouldn't the introduction of one frame lag make it more authentic? 

Not that I, personally, care about a delay of 1/24th of a second (still, good work, op!)...

[oomek]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many arcade PCBs have 1 frame of lag, too? Wouldn't the introduction of one frame lag make it more authentic? 

Not that I, personally, care about a delay of 1/24th of a second (still, good work, op!)...

Yes, and it's called a sprite buffer, many games have it. I measured the lag on game that does not have the sprite buffer on the service screen, so the only variable here is the hardware, not emulation.

[Haze]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't many arcade PCBs have 1 frame of lag, too? Wouldn't the introduction of one frame lag make it more authentic? 

Not that I, personally, care about a delay of 1/24th of a second (still, good work, op!)...

Not sure if you're joking or not but..

The sprite buffers get emulated, it's often needed to keep them in sync with other parts of the game (backgrounds, internal hitboxes etc.) otherwise you get video rendering glitches.

So we're talking about an extra frame of input lag on top of that ;-)

[oomek]

Not sure what kind of 1 frame input lag you are talking about. There is a variable 1 frame lag on every game that has a static framerate. The lag depends on when during a frame you press a button. I always measure the minimum lag possible. so that's why I take as many measurements as possible.

So for a 60hz game you get the following lag values:
Minimum: 5ms
Maximum 5ms + 16,6ms
Average: 5ms + 8,33ms

Is that what you meant?

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

I don't really know much about arcade technology, I just remember reading that, among others, many Cave games (Mushihimesama etc.) have 1 frame of lag. You can even select it in the menues of some Xbox 360 versions (and also set it to zero). I had no idea of how this one frame made it into the games, so I'm grateful for the info.

[oomek]

Fianlly I got my IPAC2 today, so I did some comparison straight away with my app as promised.

IPAC 2 lags behind Arduino 0-6 ms
Zero Delay lags behind Arduino 0-28ms

Those last 2 values are most likely polling times of those 2 encoders.

So I have the right now to sustain my statement that Zero Delay encoder is worthless.

[Nephasth]

Great... Now what am I going to do with this bag full of Zero Delay Encoders?

[pbj]

Oomek leads a lonely life.

[oomek]

Having a laugh about disabled person who actually IS lonely is a bit inappropriate, don't you think? If you do not have anything constructive to write on the subject don't write at all.

[pbj]

Have you tried a Xin Mo?

[adder]

oomek, thanks for your tests, i was wondering what your final recommendation for the least laggy encoder is, or is there more testing to do?   

ZD's have their place...

quite.

[CheffoJeffo]

Having a laugh about disabled person who actually IS lonely is a bit inappropriate, don't you think? If you do not have anything constructive to write on the subject don't write at all.

To be fair, you've been a bit of a ---tallywhacker--- about things. I haven't seen any mention about your disability or your being lonely (for which you do have my sympathies), but if I had, then yeah, pbj's remarks would be inappropriate. But, then again, pbj gonna pbj, so no surprises there.

FWIW, I dig when people rip things apart and do the quantitative analysis. But if you are going to slag and play smarter than everybody else, best to do it like kowal or Tiger-Heli ... or even that KevSteele guy (although I hear he's off worrying about apostrophes and stuff). More facts than conclusions works better with this crowd.

There's always someone smarter than you are and the people who objected to your methods weren't wrong in doing so.

 

[Nephasth]

ZD's have their place...

quite.

Stand alone controllers built for next to nothing... http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,131366

[CheffoJeffo]

The whole "worthless" and "belong in the toilet" conclusions are personal. Not necessarily wrong (for you), but personal. Not understanding the difference cheapens the work put in to analysis (as does making conclusions *before* conducting the experiment).

You may not want to use ZD encoders. I wouldn't bother using them. I already know what works for me.

Does not mean that they don't have their place and that you are smarter than everybody else.

 

[adder]

joking aside i did very much enjoy getting and using a zero delay encoder from vigo when he was selling them here on this forum.  the main thing being that the price was very cool.  however, that was 5 and a half years ago - myself personally i wouldn't use one today, but in their day i thought they were ace.  now though i have moved onto keyboard encoders and won't ever go back to a joystick encoder, but each to their own, and i respect all fellow arcade freaks out there. always.   

[yotsuya]

The ones I got from Vigo were fine. The ones from eBay... not so much.

[morton]

The ones I got from Vigo were fine. The ones from eBay... not so much.

How can one tell the difference between the various ZD Boards?

[yotsuya]

The ones I got from Vigo were fine. The ones from eBay... not so much.

How can one tell the difference between the various ZD Boards?

Anything you buy now isn't any good.

[adder]

oomek if you are interested i have an original first run 'vigo' ZD board if you want it to do whatever you like with

you dont have to pay shipping and you dont have to return it  (i'm in uk and i noticed in your profile you are also in the uk)

[pbj]

Maybe I'm a little confused here, but my recollection is I sacrificed my wallet on a Xin Mo encoder, found it to be fine, and then Vigo started inexplicably hustling them as "Vigo encoders."  When I look at pictures, these boards are not the same as zero delays,

 

[Nephasth]

Maybe I'm a little confused here, but my recollection is I sacrificed my wallet on a Xin Mo encoder, found it to be fine, and then Vigo started inexplicably hustling them as "Vigo encoders."  When I look at pictures, these boards are not the same as zero delays,

 

The one pictured in the first post looks just like the one I first got from Vigo. Last year, at bandcamp Zapcon, he gave me a bag full of later ZD stuff/boards that look different.

Maybe Vigo can chime in and clear things up.

[oomek]

Have you tried a Xin Mo?

No I haven't as I don't own one but If you are willing to donate a spare one to have it tested you are more than welcome.

oomek, thanks for your tests, i was wondering what your final recommendation for the least laggy encoder is, or is there more testing to do?   

I have tested only 2 encoders so far, so can't tell for sure. But I believe that my final recomendation would be Teensy 3.0 with a sketch polling hid events at unrestricted rate.

oomek if you are interested i have an original first run 'vigo' ZD board if you want it to do whatever you like with

you dont have to pay shipping and you dont have to return it  (i'm in uk and i noticed in your profile you are also in the uk)

Are you suggesting that my ZD may be a clone of a cheap ZD? If this is the case I'm more than happy to compare it against the rest.

[oomek]

FWIW, I dig when people rip things apart and do the quantitative analysis. But if you are going to slag and play smarter than everybody else, best to do it like kowal or Tiger-Heli ... or even that KevSteele guy (although I hear he's off worrying about apostrophes and stuff). More facts than conclusions works better with this crowd.

There's always someone smarter than you are and the people who objected to your methods weren't wrong in doing so.

 

I'm neither trying to play smarter, nor I feel like one, but when I see an evident cattle excrement denying the basics of any subject I'm familiar with I do not hide my opinions about it.

The whole "worthless" and "belong in the toilet" conclusions are personal. Not necessarily wrong (for you), but personal. Not understanding the difference cheapens the work put in to analysis (as does making conclusions *before* conducting the experiment).

You may not want to use ZD encoders. I wouldn't bother using them. I already know what works for me.

Does not mean that they don't have their place and that you are smarter than everybody else.

 

I sometimes rush my opinions and I'm aware of it, but I straightened it up, didn't I? You got the data, and the numbers are not personal opinion, they are data stating the obvious.
What is wrong with warning people about not making the same mistake as I did?

[opt2not]

I'm neither trying to play smarter, nor I feel like one, but when I see an evident cattle excrement denying the basics of any subject I'm familiar with I do not hide my opinions about it.

But you are partially familiar with the subject though, and coming off like a real ---tallywhacker--- about it. You haven't done your research to verify you have a proper ZD encoder, whether it be a later generation or knockoff board. It's definitely not an original run. You haven't tested the alternatives to put out the opinion of avoiding this option over the others. You're claiming science and telling us to avoid this when you haven't even fully researched.

[oomek]

I tested it and confirmed at the end, so just let it go. Besides You have no proof that my ZD is a clone. Do you have any information you can share to back up your theory?

[opt2not]

We don't have proof of anything in this thread besides your word (and a shoddy YouTube vid)! Until someone here takes on the effort of confirming your findings, it's all just wind.

I'm just saying, you're hellbent on disproving this $10 device, and are super defensive if anyone even questions your findings. That's not good science man.

I'm sorry to hear you're disabled and lonely. I'm not sure what your disability is, but all signs point to something mentally influencing your interaction with people. Perhaps if you didn't come off so defensive and confrontational from the get-go, perhaps you'd be less lonely? Or if anything people would take you more seriously. Food for thought.

[oomek]

I'm sorry to hear you're disabled and lonely. I'm not sure what your disability is, but all signs point to something mentally influencing your interaction with people. Perhaps if you didn't come off so defensive and confrontational from the get-go, perhaps you'd be less lonely? Or if anything people would take you more seriously. Food for thought.

It's Fibromyalgia, google it.

[Mike A]

Fibromyalgia doesn't explain why you are a jerk.

[Mike A]

My post is redundant Opt2Not posted while I was typing. I didn't mean to pile on.

[oomek]

I'm done with that thread. Enjoy your laggy encoders. Don't bother answering, I'm unsubscribing.

[Nephasth]

Welp, somebody took their ball and went home...

[keilmillerjr]

Thank you for the test.

[saint]

Please disagree with civility and decorum folks - thanks

[Mike A]

The OP was a jerk. People called him out. He hid behind a disability that has nothing to do with his personality. I don't see the problem with confronting that.

Could you be a little more clear as to what was unacceptable?

This is your playground. I want to respect your rules.

[saint]

Well I know it's not going to always be easy or even possible but I'd like folks to keep things civil and friendly even when vehemently disagreeing. I'll curse like a sailor in my private life but we get people from all walks of life here, from young kids to old farts, and more than a few folks for whom English is not their native language where communication can be difficult. The formal rules are here: http://arcadecontrols.com/arcade_message_rules.html, but it really boils down to Wheaton's Law.

[Mike A]

So it seems to mainly be the word I was using to describe him that was the problem. I thought that was a medical term.

I will try my best to remember not to use that term here.

[pbj]

Mongoloid?

[Mike A]

No. That word is pretty offensive to many people. The word I used was anatomical, but not part of a man's anatomy. I intimated that he had sand in it. I didn't really think it merited a take down.

[bootsector]

I'm done with that thread. Enjoy your laggy encoders. Don't bother answering, I'm unsubscribing.

Did you have the chance to test the teensy with the ps3pad-micro firmware?

[lilshawn]

EVERY form of input will have delay. it's just how things are.

debounce circuit? delay. (i'm sure you accounted for this in your testing right? ...right? ...probably not)
wire length? delay. (however immeasurably small it is. it's still there)
device polling rate? delay.
USB packet? delay. (not to mention multiple packets)
northbridge bus speed? delay
CPU processing time? delay.
Emulator processing time? delay.
PCIe bus speed? delay
monitor refresh rate? delay.
monitor panel refresh rate? delay.

see where i'm going here? you can't get away from it. it doesn't matter WHAT you use. There will ALWAYS be delay/lag whatever you want to call it. Zero delay was a gimmick name they came up with to get suckers to buy them. it doesn't actually describe it's abilities.

besides...The USB's start of frame packet (11-bit frame) is sent by the host every 1mS +/- 500nS on a full speed bus or every 125 uS +/- 0.0625 uS on a high speed bus... in a perfect zero delay system (assuming everything else had absolutely no delays in transmission at all whatsoever...) it would be impossible to have delay shorter than either 125uS or 1mS (depending on bus speed.) because that's how often the data packets go out.

[TapeWormInYourGut]

The OP was a jerk. People called him out. He hid behind a disability that has nothing to do with his personality. I don't see the problem with confronting that.

Could you be a little more clear as to what was unacceptable?

This is your playground. I want to respect your rules.

But m8, Fibromyalgia causes mood issues.

I wish that I was hardcore enough to have night sweats over 9ms more of a delay. Subtracting 9ms from the total time it takes me to press a button isn't going to help me much.

[mahuti]

Personally I've been training hard to get up to 120 button presses per second... I couldn't understand until now why I was starting to hit the wall even with so much training.

[pixel]

I dont see his words as having any sense of negative intent.

 If anything, he was being challenged,  with sarcasm, and in a negative way.

 Im curious out the lag issues.   Some of the hardest and fastest games,  require fraction-of-second time-frames.
Any delay at all.. can be the difference between a record breaking score... or a sad melt-down, with constant failures, that really were not fault of your own.


 I think the sensitivity here is way too touchy,  IMO.

 Let go of the personal emotional attachments,  to free yourself from attack / victim  status...  and pave a greater path to deeper truths, and overall, better playing experiences.

[mahuti]

I dont see his words as having any sense of negative intent.

 If anything, he was being challenged,  with sarcasm, and in a negative way.

Not at first. But it went off the rails pretty fast.

I think the sensitivity here is way too touchy,  IMO.

I took about ten years off of this board and on my rrecent return, I've been a little concerned about the interactions with some new folks. But I've seen plenty of good too. In any case... I find it useful and interesting still.

All I know is that the OPs first response included a "bro" comment. I knew it would go downhill from there.

[ark_ader]

We don't have proof of anything in this thread besides your word (and a shoddy YouTube vid)! Until someone here takes on the effort of confirming your findings, it's all just wind.

I'm just saying, you're hellbent on disproving this $10 device, and are super defensive if anyone even questions your findings. That's not good science man.

I'm sorry to hear you're disabled and lonely. I'm not sure what your disability is, but all signs point to something mentally influencing your interaction with people. Perhaps if you didn't come off so defensive and confrontational from the get-go, perhaps you'd be less lonely? Or if anything people would take you more seriously. Food for thought.

That was pretty harsh.  The OP was making a point, and we can either use the information or take it like a pinch of salt.  I'll throw a wizbanger in here and say that one of the reasons why xgaming has had so much business, is due to the Ultimarc's original encoders. Xgaming's recent and updated controllers produce zero lag, but I am not going to find an oscilloscope, and do a comparison.  That is not my ball of wax, but I have used both, and I know that the xgaming encoder is superior, as is their customer service. 

There seems to be a bit of tension in the air from usual gang of three posters on this board, that need to rein in their comments a bit.  I like a good laugh and poke with a sharp stick like the next guy, but we need to be mindful of other people's feelings.  This is BYOAC and not KLOV.  Reading that thread was hard going.

If oomek is reading, I hope no hard feelings, regarding the in-depth analysis of encoder boards, which I found very interesting and informative.  Thank you. 

[Mike A]

Coming from the guy who called me stupid. Get off your high horse Ark.

[ark_ader]

Coming from the guy who called me stupid.

Obviously the shoe fits really well, Mike and you wear it expertly. Unfortunately for all to see. 

[Mike A]

You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[TapeWormInYourGut]

You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

That can't be true... doing something of such low class, and of all places, coming from a member on this board? 

Honestly I thought this place was a fun hobbyist place to be. Guess I haven't been here long enough.

[Mike A]

He is about the only guy. Mostly everyone else is friendly. I just get ornery when someone is an obvious jerk.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[pbj]

Narcissists, all of you.

[ark_ader]

You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

That can't be true... doing something of such low class, and of all places, coming from a member on this board? 

Honestly I thought this place was a fun hobbyist place to be. Guess I haven't been here long enough.

It was all true but an interesting side note to that story was not told.  The client got a 40" TV and Xbone and a bunch of games as a replacement.  So not all doom and gloom, except maybe he did get doom (which is a sucky game).  Xbox is a far better gaming experience than Mame.  Nice to see the stupid comments the people on this board make are consistent.

Keep digging that hole Mike and let us know when you get to China.

Happy Easter!

[Titchgamer]

You told a story about how you convinced a guy to remove a MAME machine from his business. The employees were upset. You said you felt smug a bout it. That is all I really need to know about you.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

That can't be true... doing something of such low class, and of all places, coming from a member on this board? 

Honestly I thought this place was a fun hobbyist place to be. Guess I haven't been here long enough.

It was all true but an interesting side note to that story was not told.  The client got a 40"
TV and Xbone and a bunch of games as a replacement.  So not all doom and gloom, except maybe he did get doom (which is a sucky game).  Xbox is a far better gaming experience than Mame.  Nice to see the stupid comments the people on this board make are consistent.

Keep digging that hole Mike and let us know when you get to China.

Happy Easter!

Go hang your head in shame!

Doom is awesome and MAME offers more fun games that XBone!

Why are you here!?

[pbj]

I believe the addendum exactly as much as I believe the original story.

[TapeWormInYourGut]

Swapping a mame cab for a console kinda changes everything in that story... I thought it was dumped out of spite or just to be an a-hole. If a cab isn't being played much, then I see no problem with swapping it with something that will be played. That's how arcades operate. I'm sure the guy who received the mame cab was happy.

I will always enjoy the classics due to nostalgia and their impact on me at the time. I'll also never memorize a game's in-and-outs like I did back in the day. However, I am not someone who condemns modern games just because they are of a different platform, and I don't care if someone prefers them. 

[Titchgamer]

Swapping a mame cab for a console kinda changes everything in that story... I thought it was dumped out of spite or just to be an a-hole. If a cab isn't being played much, then I see no problem with swapping it with something that will be played. That's how arcades operate. I'm sure the guy who received the mame cab was happy.

I will always enjoy the classics due to nostalgia and their impact on me at the time. I'll also never memorize a game's in-and-outs like I did back in the day. However, I am not someone who condemns modern games just because they are of a different platform, and I don't care if someone prefers them. 

They didnt get rid because nobody played it.
They got rid because Ark told the boss it breached copyright and then felt "smug" after it was removed.

[CheffoJeffo]

Incidentally I recently visited a client's game room at his place of business which had a proper mame machine installed. I told him it was illegal to have it, and he promptly removed it and took it back to his house (at the dismay of his employees), which I admit I felt rather smug about.

[CheffoJeffo]

Why are you here!?

Ark, why the ---fudgesicle--- do you hang out here ?

[ark_ader]

It doesn't matter what happened to the mame machine, as it went back into storage.  What matters to me, is the fact that a disabled forum member, made a test to determine the states of latency on some commercial encoders.  I found it informative and hoped to learn more on the subject.

What the original poster got back was truly shocking to the point that Saint had to interject.  It seems that this hobby is dying very slowly and now the rot is setting in.  The rot I refer to is the people on this board, who feel compelled to post a nasty remark, then get all defensive when the are taken to book about it.

I do have an opinion that is not shared by most of you, and it is basic ethics.  I know the difference between black and white, where most of you exist in the gray.  I was once like you, downloading all those abandonware, until I got first hand experience of a software development firm, going bust due to piracy, and it changed my view on the industry.  Now I have that stance, which those who play in the gray, throw stones at.  I love how you children vent, and I do admit I find it hillarious at times.  But when you start taunting and abusing a disabled person on this board, becomes a whole different ballgame.  I find such behavior disgusting and not merited anywhere on the internet.

If you want to vent at someone,  direct it at me.  Post the childish quotes, and the general idiotic hate at me. Just don't target the innocent.  How about you just thinking it and not posting such poison.  I'll keep on trying to rebuild my stargate (time permitting) and post my infinite wisdom, for all to benefit from. Deal?

[opt2not]

^ Riiiiight...

[dkersten]

What matters to me, is the fact that a disabled forum member, made a test to determine the states of latency on some commercial encoders.  I found it informative and hoped to learn more on the subject.

What the original poster got back was truly shocking to the point that Saint had to interject. 

I just read this thread, and frankly, the guy came in posting some results that I immediately questioned in my own mind, was called out on exactly the sorts of things I was thinkin by someone who admittedly is not the best politician, and retorted as if he was a genius and everyone else was a complete idiot.  Not only was the response the furthest from shocking as it could be, the drama was somewhat enjoyable, at least right up until the OP played a disability card and ran home crying.  You of all people should recognize that the response he got was fairly mild compared to the sort of hell this board can lay on someone who comes in talking out his ass.

As for the test, he never established a baseline latency so the 11ms difference between the measured latency of the ZD vs the ipac is relative to nothing.  If there is 100ms of inherent latency in the chain from the PC's bus to the monitor's output to begin with, then 11 more ms is fairly insignificant.  "OMG, it's 10% slower and 500% less expensive!"  But throw in the latency of the human reaction system which measures on average around a quarter of a second (250ms) from sight to muscle movement, and that 11ms is now maybe 2-3% of a factor in the average person.  It's all relative, and frankly even in the best possible case the difference in performance doesn't qualify one as a pile of excrement and the other as the clear choice.  It simply means that one should command a price premium over the other, which it does.  Congratulations to the OP, you discovered that the more expensive controller is better.

Just for fun, try this link: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime
I realize it probably doesn't take into account the latency of the monitor, the latency of the USB controller (or wireless if you have a cordless mouse), or even the latency added by the browser, but it gives you a pretty good idea of how fast your reaction time is in a similar environment to a game.  How many people here are able to consistently hit 200ms?  How about 150ms?  Or 50ms?  And this test is for ONE motor movement.. a simple click.  Imagine if you had to not only react, but also decide which direction of 8 possible directions to react.  How much latency would that decision add?  20ms?  50ms?  Whatever the case, add that 11ms difference in controllers to your score and then divide the total back into your score.  That gives you an idea of the performance level of the $10 part compared to the $50 part.  For me it is around 96% as fast but I am fairly slow with a 250ms reaction time.  If my budget were 5x smaller, then I guess to me 5% loss in performance is a pretty good trade off. 

The whole premise of the test, while potentially interesting as an exercise in benchmarking, was not just flawed from the start, but his results were also impossible to defend.  I'm surprised he lasted as long as he did before melting down.

[CheffoJeffo]

The rot I refer to is the people on this board, who feel compelled to post a nasty remark, then get all defensive when the are taken to book about it.

Obviously the shoe fits really well, Mike and you wear it expertly. Unfortunately for all to see. 

Nice to see the stupid comments the people on this board make are consistent.

Your post is completely stupid and I think you were an idiot posting it

Not only will you be more informed, but you will not look like a childish idiot (the kindest observation I can make of you and your compatriots, without lowering myself to your level). 

You sound like a true moron now.

you are an idiot.

I am not making any intentional slights against you with these comments

Are you calling me a liar?

Perhaps I should explain myself like an adult does to a child.

I used to have this "stick up the bum" for ripping off copyrighted material

[jimmer]

If there is 100ms of inherent latency in the chain from the PC's bus to the monitor's output to begin with, then 11 more ms is fairly insignificant.

Well, yes, if you are running a terribly laggy system then you won't notice an extra bit of lag. But some of us are aiming for better than that.

...... How many people here are able to consistently hit 200ms?  ....  Whatever the case, add that 11ms difference in controllers to your score and then divide the total back into your score.

I don't play reaction time games, I play Defender. There is a moving object on screen and I time my shot to hit it. If my shot lags by a frame that is noticeable to me.

I want my whole system to be within 5 or 10ms of the arcade machine, as I think that's when (some) people start to notice the difference.

[SuperGojira2001]

Well, you get what you pay for. I don't think most people are going to notice the lag, but if you want something better the IPAC series is definitely better (and much more expensive  ).

[lilshawn]

If my shot lags by a frame that is noticeable to me.

ya gotta aim for the meat of 'er

if a frame is the only thing between you hitting a slowly vertically moving sprite and missing you need to aim better. enemies don't move at 7 pixels per frame.

[jimmer]

ya gotta aim for the meat of 'er

if a frame is the only thing between you hitting a slowly vertically moving sprite and missing you need to aim better. enemies don't move at 7 pixels per frame.

there was a reason I said 'noticeable' rather than bad or game spoiling. The relationship between lag and performance (score) is probably complex. In the timed shot example my brain might easily adapt to small amounts of input lag.

I've just realised that I can easily test this if I want to,  I can program my encoder so eg the 2player button cycles through different amounts of encoder delay 0ms > 17ms > 34ms > 50ms  > 0ms

[Laythe]

there was a reason I said 'noticeable' rather than bad or game spoiling. The relationship between lag and performance (score) is probably complex. In the timed shot example my brain might easily adapt to small amounts of input lag.

I've just realised that I can easily test this if I want to,  I can program my encoder so eg the 2player button cycles through different amounts of encoder delay 0ms > 17ms > 34ms > 50ms  > 0ms

That'd be an interesting test.  Though, given the response Oomek got to posting the results of an interesting test, I could understand thinking twice before posting your findings here - make sure you're prepared to weather the reaction.

I think that lag is cumulative.  You've got some milliseconds from the encoder.  You've got some ms from the USB bus.  You've got some ms from the OS input polling rate.  I think you've got some ms introduced by emulation overhead, and you've optionally got some ms introduced by waiting for vsync because we're not beam racing anymore, you've potentially got some from multiple frame buffering, and then you may have some milliseconds within your display itself.  All of that is additive, and removing some anywhere you can is going to reduce the total. 

I'd expect different people have different sensitivities to it.  If the amount your setup has is below your personal threshold of noticing, awesome, more power to you, you'll have fun.  If your setup is above your threshold of perception, it's going to annoy you.

I would say the best outcome of that would be to let the people who really care hash it out and benchmark things and advance the state of that art, and if you don't really care, ignore it.  I would think that a community that has Very Strong Opinions about frontends, LCD vs CRT, leafs versus microswitches, the best feel in 4 and 8 way sticks, and on, and on, and on - would be able to do that.

[Paradroid]

Further reading for those looking to lose the lag: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=133194.msg1370641.msg#1370641

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