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Author Topic: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?  (Read 2546 times)

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theAEoN

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Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« on: January 12, 2017, 01:59:26 pm »
Looking back now, it's been almost a year since I've updated GroovyMame and crtemudriver. For a while I used MALA, but my friends really like HyperSpin and the only problem I've encountered with it is on closing MAME, I lose sound in HyperSpin. I've read that this has to do with ASIO and am now wondering if it's worth it to keep using ASIO or has the sound latency improved in GroovyMame since last summer that I can do without now?

If I do stick with ASIO, any tips/workarounds on that sound bug when returning to HyperSpin?

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2017, 06:54:45 pm »
Hi, hopefully in the near future there will be no reason to use the ASIO build, a much better option is being considered for inclusion in mainline.

Calamity

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2017, 11:24:25 am »
Hi, hopefully in the near future there will be no reason to use the ASIO build, a much better option is being considered for inclusion in mainline.

https://git.redump.net/mame/commit/?id=32c13ad9292e4138591e1761ddcfc64d607f3034

It's in! Congratulations intealls!

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keropi

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2017, 12:55:04 pm »
If I understand correctly PortAudio is the successor to ASIO?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 12:56:53 pm by keropi »

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2017, 03:02:05 pm »
Hi, hopefully in the near future there will be no reason to use the ASIO build, a much better option is being considered for inclusion in mainline.

https://git.redump.net/mame/commit/?id=32c13ad9292e4138591e1761ddcfc64d607f3034

It's in! Congratulations intealls!

Thanks! :) Also, don't forget that PortAudio was R.Belmont's idea from the start, and I borrowed some things from his initial implementation.

Regarding GM, it's possible we might need the resampler for syncrefresh, we're going to see under/overruns with very tight latencies simply due to resampler granularity. Due to the buffer handling in the PA implementation most of them will probably not be audible. I have a working resampler up and running, if people actually are able to notice audio issues with GM+PA (I can't), I'll release a small patch with only the resampler, which can be put on top of mainline+GM.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2017, 03:04:41 pm by intealls »

B2K24

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2017, 03:11:58 am »
Is PortAudio ready to use right now in mainline if I compile latest GIT with pull request #1973 applied?
https://github.com/mamedev/mame/commit/2fd881e559bb69b1bde1023d17baabb31b953321

 I noticed new options in the mame.ini
What do I set for the pa_api and pa_device?

Code: [Select]
# OSD SOUND OPTIONS
#
sound                     portaudio
audio_latency             1

#
# PORTAUDIO OPTIONS
#
pa_api                    none
pa_device                 none
pa_latency                0

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 10:34:52 am »
Is PortAudio ready to use right now in mainline if I compile latest GIT with pull request #1973 applied?

Yep!

I noticed new options in the mame.ini
What do I set for the pa_api and pa_device?

You can see the supported devices and APIs with -v in the log. However, the easiest way is to define the API and latency to use. The default device of the selected API is then used.

Examples:

Code: [Select]
mame64 -sound portaudio -pa_api "Windows WASAPI" -pa_latency 0.003334 -audio_latency 1

or

mame64 -sound portaudio -pa_api "Windows WDM-KS" -pa_latency 0.001 -audio_latency 1

Also, the same rules apply for PortAudio as for the ASIO build, which is that -nosleep and -priority 1 might help with very low latencies.

B2K24

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2017, 05:22:58 pm »
Thank you very much intealls!!!!  ;D

I will sit down tonight and do some gaming with the examples you've provided. I appreciate your work and thanks for answering :)

B2K24

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2017, 08:27:51 pm »
OK, I think I've got it working correctly, but not 100% sure.

Here's output of -v
http://pastebin.com/hyT9QPR2

Here's contents of mame.ini with sleep set to 0 and priority set to 1

Code: [Select]
# OSD SOUND OPTIONS
#
sound                     portaudio
audio_latency             1

#
# PORTAUDIO OPTIONS
#
pa_api                    "Windows WASAPI"
pa_device                 "Headset Earphone (3- Corsair Ga"
pa_latency                0.003334

Not sure if those are good latency numbers and the numbers of different devices somewhat complicates things, but seems much better than dsound or auto.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 08:48:46 pm by B2K24 »

Paradroid

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2017, 10:00:48 pm »
This is a really exciting development guys! Nice work! :)

Sent from my SM-A300Y using Tapatalk

My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 05:19:48 am »
Not sure if those are good latency numbers and the numbers of different devices somewhat complicates things, but seems much better than dsound or auto.

This should be equivalent to the ASIO build! You can play around with -pa_latency and -audio_latency to add delays (e.g. -pa_latency 0.050 -audio_latency 3), or just skip that and use -pa_api "Windows MME". You'll definitely notice the loveliness of low latency audio.

B2K24

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2017, 05:48:39 am »
WOW! Amazing!

I changed to your posted settings and it's a definite improvement. Thanks so much  ;D


Calamity

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2017, 12:25:40 pm »
I'm testing it from git, man it's like night and day! This one is going to be a big release!  :applaud:
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intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2017, 04:42:27 pm »
I'm testing it from git, man it's like night and day! This one is going to be a big release!  :applaud:

Nice! :)

Once you get used to low latency audio, it's hard to go back. ASIO was always a bit fiddly to get up and running, but this just works, PortAudio is brilliant.

brad808

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2017, 06:57:53 pm »
I'm looking forward to the next release! Thanks guys

Dacasks

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2017, 01:29:01 pm »
Just tested 0182 and with portaudio is ACE! Good Job!

However, sadly I can't make it work properly sampled at 22500.

Most games sound too metallic/edgy at 48000, so I would ask if there's any way to get the 22500 sound but with reduced latency.

One thing I noticed, also, is that input lag increases if the samplerate is lowered. Don't know if it's a new thing or it already happened under older vers. (I mainly used 0.171 ASIO sampled at 22500, so, I couldn't notice difference then)

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2017, 01:41:44 pm »
Most games sound too metallic/edgy at 48000, so I would ask if there's any way to get the 22500 sound but with reduced latency.

What options are you using? Neither WASAPI nor WDM-KS will initialize with a sampling rate of 22050 on my W10 rig (PortAudio error: Invalid device). This was supported by BASSASIO, which most likely upsampled the input data to whatever the sound card wanted (MAME produced 22050 samples/s, BASSASIO made them 48000/s). A low pass filter on the output data should produce similar results.

One thing I noticed, also, is that input lag increases if the samplerate is lowered. Don't know if it's a new thing or it already happened under older vers. (I mainly used 0.171 ASIO sampled at 22500, so, I couldn't notice difference then)

What do you mean by this?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 01:49:09 pm by intealls »

Dacasks

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2017, 02:09:31 pm »
My bad, I meant 22050

I tried with both apis.

I'm using Windows 7. I can make the sound output using pa_latency 0.013334

At 22050 sounds come high pitched/metallic compared to 0.171 ASIO at 22050 anyway, so, it's better stick to 48000 right now (it's specially noticeable with Ghouls n Ghosts :) )

I meant that I noticed that, if I lower the samplerate to 11025, for example, I can notice an increased delay on input. Difference between 22050 and 48000 is subtle, to the point I can't notice, but, 11025 you can really feel the difference comparing it to 48000. But it was noticed only by the "feel" of it, I didn't measure anything. I could be wrong, but, at 11025 it is really noticeable the input lag increase.

Dacasks

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2017, 02:14:57 pm »
Just tried again the "samplerate difference on input lag"... and now I'm not having any difference at all, so, I take that back lol.

Maybe I changed another parameter while I was messing with it... but with Final Fight it was really noticeable from I recall. I'll try more tomorrow again, too tired lolz.

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 03:09:30 pm »
Maybe I changed another parameter while I was messing with it... but with Final Fight it was really noticeable from I recall. I'll try more tomorrow again, too tired lolz.

Please try to reproduce this.

I'm using Windows 7. I can make the sound output using pa_latency 0.013334

At 22050 sounds come high pitched/metallic compared to 0.171 ASIO at 22050 anyway, so, it's better stick to 48000 right now (it's specially noticeable with Ghouls n Ghosts :) )

I meant that I noticed that, if I lower the samplerate to 11025, for example, I can notice an increased delay on input. Difference between 22050 and 48000 is subtle, to the point I can't notice, but, 11025 you can really feel the difference comparing it to 48000. But it was noticed only by the "feel" of it, I didn't measure anything. I could be wrong, but, at 11025 it is really noticeable the input lag increase.

Yeah, BASSASIO also seems to place a pretty hefty low-pass filter on the output, which some like and some don't. Sinc resampling does this "automatically", and the cutoff can be tuned.

I don't know what PA (and Windows in succession) will do with this configuration... WASAPI/WDM-KS is not designed to work with such low sample rates. DirectSound is also supported with PA, you could see how low you can go latency-wise with -pa_api "Windows DirectSound". This will support the lower rates.

Dacasks

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2017, 09:37:07 am »
Maybe I changed another parameter while I was messing with it... but with Final Fight it was really noticeable from I recall. I'll try more tomorrow again, too tired lolz.

Please try to reproduce this.


Yeah, BASSASIO also seems to place a pretty hefty low-pass filter on the output, which some like and some don't. Sinc resampling does this "automatically", and the cutoff can be tuned.

I don't know what PA (and Windows in succession) will do with this configuration... WASAPI/WDM-KS is not designed to work with such low sample rates. DirectSound is also supported with PA, you could see how low you can go latency-wise with -pa_api "Windows DirectSound". This will support the lower rates.

Nope, must've been something else, so sorry for pointing that out. But if I managed to reproduce I'll inform, surely.

NOW, the Directsound Api does work! I mean, I have to test more games if the sound comes right comparing it to regular Mame but, I managed to lower it too 11025 (pretty muffled sound, of course).  I'll try again with the other api's if the results are the same (since now I can compare easily). It does sound different from Asio, and, must be the low pass filter you talk.

Anyway, shows it's a great improvement from now on, so thanks again!

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #21 on: January 27, 2017, 11:59:43 am »
NOW, the Directsound Api does work! I mean, I have to test more games if the sound comes right comparing it to regular Mame but, I managed to lower it too 11025 (pretty muffled sound, of course).

Also, just to be clear, when you use the DirectSound API, latency will be much higher than with WASAPI/WDM-KS. If you use -v, you can see approximately how much is added.

B2K24

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #22 on: January 27, 2017, 01:15:08 pm »
I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, but on my Windows 10 Pro X64 system it seems like it's better to use "Windows WASAPI" over "Windows WDM-KS"
I suppose there's also some bottleneck when it comes down to the actual physical device?

mame64 -sound portaudio -pa_api "Windows WASAPI" -pa_latency 0.003334 -audio_latency 1 sf2 -v

Code: [Select]
PortAudio: Sample rate is 48000 Hz, device output latency is 3.33 ms
PortAudio: Allowed additional buffering latency is 10.00 ms/480 frames

mame64 -sound portaudio -pa_api "Windows WDM-KS" -pa_latency 0.003334 -audio_latency 1 sf2 -v

Code: [Select]
PortAudio: Sample rate is 48000 Hz, device output latency is 10.00 ms
PortAudio: Allowed additional buffering latency is 10.00 ms/480 frames

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #23 on: January 27, 2017, 01:23:36 pm »
mame64 -sound portaudio -pa_api "Windows WDM-KS" -pa_latency 0.003334 -audio_latency 1 sf2 -v

Code: [Select]
PortAudio: Sample rate is 48000 Hz, device output latency is 10.00 ms
PortAudio: Allowed additional buffering latency is 10.00 ms/480 frames

Try -pa_api "Windows WDM-KS" -pa_latency 0.001. When the API cannot use the specified latency, PA reverts to the default.

B2K24

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #24 on: January 27, 2017, 03:19:33 pm »
I just tried that and it didn't change the numbers. It's OK it's sounds amazing anyway :)

Thank You!

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #25 on: January 27, 2017, 03:33:41 pm »
I just tried that and it didn't change the numbers. It's OK it's sounds amazing anyway :)

Ok, you could try to update your sound card drivers and see if that makes a difference. But if WASAPI works with lower latencies, I'd stick to that.

haynor666

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #26 on: January 27, 2017, 04:17:06 pm »
Since WASAPI is not available in XP what choices are left for best audio setup?
For now I set Windows-WDM-KS and latency 0.003.

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2017, 04:43:32 pm »
Since WASAPI is not available in XP what choices are left for best audio setup?
For now I set Windows-WDM-KS and latency 0.003.

If that works, I'd use that. GM works brilliantly on W7, so unless there's a very good reason NOT to upgrade, you probably should.

haynor666

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2017, 08:02:15 am »
Yeah, works but I didn't tested all other options but what I've read  WDM would better option than MME. Is this right?

On windows 7 I get  some crashed with some options combination so another question - are there any safe ranges for latency and prohibited options combinations?

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2017, 10:35:24 am »
Yeah, works but I didn't tested all other options but what I've read  WDM would better option than MME. Is this right?

On windows 7 I get  some crashed with some options combination so another question - are there any safe ranges for latency and prohibited options combinations?

WDM-KS should be the best option, which is _slightly_ better than WASAPI. MME is ancient, but actually seems to provide better latency than DirectSound under some circumstances on modern Windows systems, at least on my test rigs.

What was the crash you got on Windows 7? Can you please try to reproduce this and provide more info (API, latency, audio chip etc)?

Regarding safe ranges - if everything works as it should, WASAPI/0.003334 or WDM-KS/0.001 should be safe.

pakoman

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2017, 11:04:57 am »
Code: [Select]
PortAudio: Using device "Speakers (Auricular y altavoces de HD Audio)" on API "Windows WDM-KS"
PortAudio: Sample rate is 48000 Hz, device output latency is 2.00 ms
PortAudio: Allowed additional buffering latency is 10.00 ms/480 frames
Sound: overflows=12 underflows=8

Code: [Select]
PortAudio: Using device "Altavoces (Dispositivo de High Definition Audio)" on API "Windows WASAPI"
PortAudio: Sample rate is 48000 Hz, device output latency is 3.33 ms
PortAudio: Allowed additional buffering latency is 10.00 ms/480 frames
Sound: overflows=3 underflows=0

I've got these results with the samples Calamity posted:
Code: [Select]
mame64 -sound portaudio -pa_api "Windows WASAPI" -pa_latency 0.003334 -audio_latency 1

or

mame64 -sound portaudio -pa_api "Windows WDM-KS" -pa_latency 0.001 -audio_latency 1


Windows 10, core i5 m430. In this test WASABI sounds better as WDM-KS goes often out of tune.

EDIT: in older Mame releases I get 48 ms.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 11:29:11 am by pakoman »

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2017, 11:12:37 am »
Windows 10, core i5 m430. In this test WASABI sounds better as WDM-KS goes often out of tune.

Ok, one thing to keep in mind with low-latency audio is that it is important to have as few other applications running when using it. For instance, only have MAME running, and if problems are encountered, try using -nosleep and -priority 1. This will probably kill the battery life if run on a laptop though.

But if WASAPI works better on your rig, the latency difference should only be 1.333 ms... Which you'd have to be super-human to notice.

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2017, 11:23:47 am »
Again, this time in this topic additional raport. Info about crash under Windows 7x64:

Pakiet błędów , typ 0
Nazwa zdarzenia: APPCRASH
Odpowiedź: Niedostępny
Identyfikator pliku Cab: 0

Sygnatura problemu:
P1: groovymame32_182.exe
P2: 0.182.0.0
P3: 00000000
P4: ntdll.dll
P5: 6.1.7601.19135
P6: 56a1c6fa
P7: c0000005
P8: 00033593
P9:
P10:

pakoman

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2017, 11:57:42 am »
Windows 10, core i5 m430. In this test WASABI sounds better as WDM-KS goes often out of tune.

Ok, one thing to keep in mind with low-latency audio is that it is important to have as few other applications running when using it. For instance, only have MAME running, and if problems are encountered, try using -nosleep and -priority 1. This will probably kill the battery life if run on a laptop though.

But if WASAPI works better on your rig, the latency difference should only be 1.333 ms... Which you'd have to be super-human to notice.

Thanks for the tip. I was compiling at the same time  ;D

Tried again without compiling and noticed no sound distortions at all.

Being said that it seems that WASABI is more versatile as tolerates much better other running programs without noticeable harm to the sound quality (at the cost of 1.333ms).

In the other hand WDM-KS has better latency but it's more prone to interferences.

RobertJ

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2017, 01:18:32 pm »
I'm running Arch Linux + Attract Mode front end, when I launch MAME from the command line with portaudio enabled, it works just fine. If I launch it from AM I get no sound and it says
Code: [Select]
"portaudio error invalid number of channels" :(

I get sound if I disable portaudio.

Has anyone else had this issue?

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2017, 01:23:06 pm »
Code: [Select]
"portaudio error invalid number of channels"

Could you please post the full log output with -v?

haynor666

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #36 on: January 29, 2017, 04:22:37 pm »
Did anyone tried audio_latency lower than 1.0? If I set audio_latency below 1. Also pa_latency with some values causing crashes.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 04:29:15 pm by haynor666 »

intealls

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #37 on: January 29, 2017, 04:37:41 pm »
Did anyone tried audio_latency lower than 1.0? If I set audio_latency below 1.

This should not be done, Calamity outlined this in the initial post, and will absolutely make GM crash. A setting of 1 will use the lowest latency, and works adaptively. So use 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5.

Also pa_latency with some values causing crashes.

Please post detailed information so that it makes it possible to understand what's going on (GM log and the OS used at minimum).
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 04:39:33 pm by intealls »

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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #38 on: January 29, 2017, 04:47:15 pm »
Please guys, if you really want to help provide proper logs, it's really frustrating that in January 2017 people keep posting bug reports on this forum without a damned log.
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Re: Is GroovyMame + ASIO still a thing?
« Reply #39 on: January 29, 2017, 05:02:50 pm »
Problem is there isn't anything interesting in log :/ All API crash groovymame32.

« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 05:05:53 pm by haynor666 »

  
 

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