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Author Topic: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there  (Read 8925 times)

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BadMouth

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Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« on: December 31, 2016, 04:54:05 pm »
(Starting a thread might be a bit premature, but it will make me get off my butt and work on it more.)

The goal is to come up with a rotary joystick option that's fairly cheap and easy to add, but still has a good feel to it.
I've done a rotary joystick mockup with an optical encoder, but the lack of detents took a lot away from the games IMO.
For that reason, this attempt will use a mechanical ALPS 12 position rotary switch:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-ALPS-1-Wafer-1-Pole-12-Position-cycling-Rotary-Switch-Made-in-JAPAN-/152296969200?hash=item23759b53f0:g:chgAAOSwxH1UKmMJ


A cheaper rotary switch could be used, but I came across a couple of these, attached them to custom joystick shafts with couplers, and they had a really good feel to them.
Not too much pressure to turn, but still a good snap to the next detent.  Although I have these custom made joystick shafts, they don't really fit with a cheap and easy for everyone solution, so I'll be using the original JLF shafts for this project.  I'm starting with the JLF because it's what's in my cab and I have a spare.  I also have a JLW on the parts pile and it shouldn't be too much trouble to modify the design for that.

Part 1 is the coupler.  This will join the joystick and potentiometer shafts.  Since there isn't any extra shaft there to work with, my plan is for the coupler to incorporate the actuator and be held in place with the original e-clip.  To do that though, it will need to have a slot cut in the side and enough of an opening to be able to remove the e-clip if needed.  That leaves a weak spot in the setup.  The easiest way for me to tell if it will be strong enough is to build and test it.

The other problem is that the joystick shaft can still spin freely.  As said previously, I am trying to make this an easy mod, so I don't want people to have to drill a hole through the joystick shaft.  Hopefully it won't come to that.  The only keyed thing on the original joystick shaft though is the 1mm notch in the bottom for tightening the balltop.  The rotary switch also has a 1mm slot. I can't imagine a 1mm bump of plastic holding up very long.  I didn't think a metal key that small would either, but then I tried the side of a large picture hanging hook and it felt pretty solid.

I figure these are easy to find and most people have dremels, so people could cut their own key out of them.  I might have to find something larger, but it will still be something readily available.

Here is what I'm currently printing to test (is upside down):


This should tell me if the sizing for the shafts is correct, if the slot is large enough to get the e-clip on there, if the opening on the slot is large enough to get the e-clip off, etc.
If all that works out, I'll also see how much twisting force it takes to break it.  (printing in PLA for now)

When the coupler is done, we'll have the yoke that attaches to the potentiometer and the post that will keep the yoke oriented.
I'm somewhat reluctant to 3D print the post.  A metal one would me much smoother.

After the mechanical stuff is done, we have the problem of converting input from a 12 position switch into two key presses for Turn Left and Turn Right in MAME.
GroovyGameGear's GPWiz has this feature built in, but I already have an encoder.  There is KADE firmware out there (and I do have a couple AVRs left), but KADEs and compatible AVRs are getting harder to find.  I don't really want any more devices showing up on my PC, not even another keyboard.  So my plan is to use an Arduino Nano knock-off to determine which way the joystick is being turned, then have it pull an input on my keyboard encoder to ground.  That way nothing in my setup changes.  I'll just have to map those 4 extra keys (2 per player) in MAME.  Once I have the Arduino sketch, it shouldn't be hard to incorporate it into other sketches that use the arduino as a keyboard encoder.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 08:55:06 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2016, 07:08:17 pm »
Cool project!

Am I understanding correctly that you want the shaft to rotate freely and only the ball top will rotate the directions? Maybe adding a shaft cover to the shaft will give a similar feeling? I know from using rubber grommet centering sticks that a fixed shaft feels weird if you're used to one that rotates along with how your hand moves.

I have Seimitsu LS-30 sticks I haven't mounted in a panel in case you need photos of how they've solved how the rotation part is fixed so it doesn't just move along with the top when that's rotated manually.

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2016, 09:36:30 pm »
Am I understanding correctly that you want the shaft to rotate freely and only the ball top will rotate the directions?

No, I'm just trying to lock the joystick shaft to the coupler.  Then the ball top will be loc-tited on to keep it from unscrewing.
So when you turn the balltop, the shaft turns with it, the coupler turns with it, etc.

The idea is to make this a crazy simple mod without any custom machining.
I'm not having very good luck so far.  The slot for the E-clip needed to be much more than half the diameter.
It ends up only having a small block of material on one side which breaks easily.
I need to find a way other than the E-clip to secure the actuator in place.

I looked at the JLW and it's no better.


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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2016, 11:31:39 pm »
Here is what I'm currently printing to test (is upside down):

I'm not having very good luck so far.  The slot for the E-clip needed to be much more than half the diameter.
It ends up only having a small block of material on one side which breaks easily.
Hopefully a thicker wall (wider than the e-clip so you can extend support forward) on the section above the actuator will help.

If that isn't enough, how about adding vertical ribs that slide into slots on an outer sleeve? (ribs above and below the e-clip opening)

The outer sleeve provides strength and the ribs distribute the twisting force over a larger area than the weak area by the e-clip.


Scott
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 11:34:58 pm by PL1 »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2017, 08:17:17 am »
The problem is that the diameter is basically limited to the current diameter of the bottom part of the actuator because it doesn't extend hardly any past the restrictor plate.  I guess I could make a new restrictor plate with a wider opening.....

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2017, 05:39:37 pm »
I have some concerns about the overall height the switch will add to the JLF. Too bad using cogwheels to put the switch to the side rather than underneath would be overly complicated as each nudge to the shaft would need to be compensated for.

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2017, 09:20:06 am »
I have some concerns about the overall height the switch will add to the JLF. Too bad using cogwheels to put the switch to the side rather than underneath would be overly complicated as each nudge to the shaft would need to be compensated for.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I'm trying to find a solution other than using my custom extended shafts and a stepper motor coupling.
I don't think this will be that bad.  My own cab's CP is very shallow.  For it I'd probably have to hack off half the potentiometer shaft and modify the design accordingly.

On the retention clip front, I came across this alternative on a drone board:



I think it might be workable as long as the part that sticks out doesn't hit the restrictor plate.  Maybe even pause the print and insert it during printing.
They also make rings with the standard two holes that don't stick out as far, but it would be pretty tight getting the special tool in there to release it.

EDIT: I will swing by Fastenal tomorrow morning and hopefully pick up various options for retaining clips.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 10:01:45 am by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2017, 11:22:24 am »
(posting thoughts here just to keep my place)

The Kowal oversized actuator is 1mm larger, so making the coupler that size will hopefully leave enough extra material around the outside to be strong enough.

There are octagon restrictor plate models for both the JLF and JLW on Thingiverse.  If an even thicker actuator is needed, it should be easy enough to take one of those and make the opening wider to compensate.  Right now I'm shooting for the standard opening with the Kowal sized actuator so it will have reduced throw.
Printing the restrictor plate would give us options on how the post that keeps the body of the pot from turning is handled.

There are better ways to do this if you have access to machining tools, but again I'm trying to design this to be easy for anyone to print and install.

EDIT: (some more thoughts, but don't want to bump the thread).
I was having a hard time with 1mm or smaller holes or protrusions on my 3D printer (monoprice mini).
It dawned on me today that my nozzle is .4mm and I have the wall thickness set to 1.2mm
Maybe if I drop the thickness down to .8, I can get clean .8mm lines.
If so, maybe a two piece printed collar  with another collar that slides over it to hold it tight would be strong enough to replace the E-Clip.
Looks like I'm in for an evening of bowl games and test prints.  :)

attached JLF shaft measurements so I don't have to keep looking them up.



« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 03:11:18 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2017, 05:33:59 pm »
Nice find of that piece, fingers crossed!

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2017, 09:06:52 pm »
I was able to get a much better defined 1mm internal rings by printing the coupler on its side.
As long as the two halves are held together tightly, I don't think there will be any issue replacing the e-clip with this setup.  Still might have to use a metal tab for the slot in the bottom since it's smaller. 

Next draft will have .5mm thinner walls and an actuator section that slides down over it to lock the halves together.
(and it will extend further up the joystick shaft)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 09:50:00 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2017, 04:07:43 pm »
Cool!

Here's an idea for the locking of the switch. Using an L-shaped bracket with two openings. Explained more in detail below.


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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2017, 11:23:03 am »
Current plan is to make something similar to the Happ rotary (but more compact).



My last incarnation was cut by hand out of a sheet of ABS Plastic.
You could feel any bumps on the inside edge.

I'll give your idea some thought.  Maybe a combination would work better.


I decided to take a break from this last night, but the night before I experimented with printing the coupler in various ways and tweaking it for a more precise fit.
On this level (.5-1mm), 3D printing isn't as precise as I thought it would be.  I can print the halves with the opening up and they fit good, but need to be printed with a brim (a thin raft) which would have to be sanded away.  When printed face down the opening comes out smaller, the shaft doesn't fit in it, and the ring that replaces the retention clip isn't nearly as crisp and perfect.  If I print them standing up, the overhangs come out too sloppy despite my printer pulling off a 1"+ straight-as-an-arrow bridge with no support on another project.
So at this point, it's about tweaking the design for the best printing results and least amout of modification needed after printing.

I don't think this is going to be something that will print out perfect and the correct size on other people's printers without them doing some trial and error.
Once I get my own machine and method dialed in though, I have no problem with cranking out a couple dozen to share.   ;)

I plan to tinker with it more this evening.  (I'm doing laundry in the basement, the printer is in the basement, it only takes 10 minutes to print one to test....)

Not much different, but here is a print from the last round.  It feels more solid than expected given the thin walls.
I want it to extend further up the joystick shaft, but the actuator can only slide up about 5mm.  So if the actuator supposed to be put on first and then slide back down over this, then it can only extend up 5mm.  The plan is still a WIP and I may have to come up with a different plan such as installing the actuator from the bottom before installing the rotary switch.



« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 01:50:18 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2017, 12:46:35 pm »
HAPP solution is pretty similar to the Seimitsu LS-30, a shaft in a hole that has some wiggle room. ;)



I don't have a JLF at hand, so I can't really look into how to attach a bracket to it, but I think adding the "wiggle" part to that (top) side rather than the bottom end could enhance the feeling from the HAPP/Seimitsu solution. Or not work at all. ;)

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2017, 10:32:42 pm »
First draft of the yoke.  This one has some issues, but you get the idea:


This was how I envisioned it working.  The yoke goes on the rotary switch.  The two halves of the coupler join the switch and the joystick shaft while also doing the job of the e-clip on the joystick shaft.  The two halves are then held together by sliding the actuator down over them.  The problem is that once assembled, there is less room to work with than I thought, so I'll probably have to find another way to join the halves from the bottom.


To get an idea of how things would work, I trimmed the end of the coupler and installed it with the stock actuator.
Friggin' taller than I expected, but still not as bad as my previous experiment that used custom extended shafts and step motor couplers.
It adds 45mm from the end of the shaft to the bottom of the rotary switch.


Before seeing it together, I was thinking about possibly threading a bolt into one of the tabs on the sides as a post.
An M5 would cut its own threads perfectly.  Of course it would use a different style bolt without threads on the upper part.
Not sure if this is a good idea now that I see how tall everything is.


EDIT: I figured out how to print the coupler halves on their backs without using a brim.  Adding a .5mm thick tab on each end holds it down well enough to print every time so far.
The tabs are easily torn off.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2017, 10:40:37 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2017, 09:44:47 am »
Exciting development.  :cheers:

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2017, 04:34:46 pm »
Since the last design showed that it was going to be a PITA to install on the joystick while assembled, I decided to revisit the original 1 piece design.
I ordered a set of the e-clip alternatives pictured on the motor earlier.
The 6mm is too big and the 5mm has to be bent way out of shape to get it on the joystick shaft.
I'm not sure it would be workable if trying to install it through a small slot.

So it looks like I'm sticking with the "halves held together by the actuator" design shown last.
The actuator needs to be shorter to be able to attach it to an already assembled stick.
Since that's not going to allow it to overlap the "halves" section much, I'll add a ring that will be lifted onto the bottom edge as well.

I probably won't have time to work on this again until the weekend.

Once I work out all the kinks, I'll switch over to ABS and have to resize everything again to allow for shrinkage!  :lol  :'(

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2017, 03:13:05 pm »
Thanks for the update! :cheers:

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2017, 06:10:58 pm »
After being sidetracked by some home improvement projects, I was able to mess with this a bit more today.

Having a 3D printed actuator that slides back down over the coupler was too much of a PITA to install.  Now I've switched to just using the stock actuator and having the top of the coupler be where the e-clip would normally be. 

Originally didn't want to do it this way because I didn't think it would be durable enough, but it seems solid.  Now I just have to go back to a thinner version with a collar that slides up farther from the bottom.

Currently having tolerance issues after my last round of revisions.  Hoping I have an old draft to go back to....

EDIT:  Instead of having collars, I could just put a bolt through the middle, but that would require making it taller, which I'm trying to avoid.  It actually might fit in my cab with some modifications at this point.


« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 06:16:00 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2017, 06:42:05 pm »
I had a thought. There's no way of taking the pot apart and printing something that goes inside it attached to the joystick's shaft, is there? That could shave off the height a bit.

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - early stages
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2017, 08:33:28 pm »
I don't think so.  I think a plastic shaft would wear out real fast.

Here is the final (for now) design:


 
For the post that keeps the yoke from turning, a 75mm Hex cap bolt that is only threaded on the very end will screw into one of the extra plastic mounting tabs on the side of the joystick body.

Those might not get here until the beginning of next week.

In the meantime, I guess I will start tinkering with a coupler for the JLW (rotary & 4/8 way switching in one!).

Will probably use an AVR with the KADE rotary firmware for testing (next week), but will do a "current keyboard encoder compatible" device by the end.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2017, 08:58:48 pm by BadMouth »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2017, 11:16:25 am »
Did anyone else see an "everything but the shaft" 3D printed rotary joystick project posted last night?
I saw it through Tapatalk and planned to comment this morning, but now I can't find the thread anywhere.
It even had a 3D printed LS-30 style top.

If the creator is reading this, cool stuff and please share your arduino script.
I have a thread in the automated projects subforum about how an interface device would have to work.
There might be some useful info there like combining the 12 posts down to 3 if you weren't aware of that yet.

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2017, 11:22:35 am »
Did anyone else see an "everything but the shaft" 3D printed rotary joystick project posted last night?
I saw it through Tapatalk and planned to comment this morning, but now I can't find the thread anywhere.
Here it is.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,153219.0.html


Scott

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2017, 12:20:06 pm »
Thanks PL1.  Not sure how I missed checking in the automated projects subforum or why it didn't come up when I searched the entire forum.  :dunno

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2017, 01:01:26 pm »
The M5 bolts came in, so I was able to get the yoke sized to fit and wrap this revision up.  I added a slot on the other end to zip tie the wires from the switch.

It feels great except for one thing which someone may or may not notice or get used to.  Moving left or right, you can't the difference between this joystick and one without the rotary stuff attached. 

Moving up or down though, the yoke causes the joystick shaft to rotate maybe 5 degrees and you can feel the balltop move slightly.  I didn't have this issue with optical rotary hacks because they just spun freely rather than having solid detents like this switch.

I guess this is why original designs had the yoke bend upward so it intersects the post closer to the pivot point of the joystick.  This is going to be harder to print, but I guess I should at least try it and see if it makes much difference.

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2017, 06:03:41 pm »


Not as nice looking IMO, but the rotation experienced when pushing up or down is barely noticeable now.  Gonna add some gussets to the next revision.  We can go down to a 45-50mm M5 bolt for the post now.  These might actually fit in my cab if I switch to top mount.

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2020, 03:13:12 pm »
are the 3d files available on thingiverse or somewhere else on the web?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2020, 04:56:23 pm by etb »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2020, 04:08:27 pm »

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 07:44:43 am »
Never finished this, but for anyone else that wants to mess with this approach:

bracket for Alps switch   https://www.tinkercad.com/things/77OzLAC8Q1L 
coupler: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/fVXXvPPj2ju
sleeve to hold coupler halves together: https://www.tinkercad.com/things/jzYmrPW284t
possibly useful "tolerance test: : https://www.tinkercad.com/things/6sh9aQ2vu2M
DISCLAIMER: IT HAS BEEN YEARS SINCE I MESSED WITH THIS AND YOUR PRINTER COULD HAVE DIFFERENT TOLERANCES.

DOUBLE EDIT: OMG, blocky faces on those rounded parts!  I've improved, but am still limited to Tinkercad.  :lol

etb

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2021, 03:35:48 am »
Thanks for the uploads. I wanted to share my progress.

movement video clip

modified 3d model


WIP seimitsu ls-32 joystick + GRS USB Button Hole Spinner mod.
Misc parts:
  shaft extension
  octagonal gate
  8mm to 10mm coupler
  3d printed part.
  long m5 screw
So far the concept seems solid.

PL1

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2021, 04:47:42 am »
Looks good.   ;D

The only downside is that it is a "non-clicky" optical rotary stick (like the Loop-24 or Happ optical rotary) instead of the more commonly used 12-position "clicky" mechanical rotary stick. (like the LS-30 or Happ mechanical rotary)

AFAIK there were only four games that used optical rotary sticks.
    Caliber .50
    Exterminator
    Touchdown Fever
    Touchdown Fever II

The good news is that if you want the mechanical version, it should be easy to remix your mod for a 12-position rotary switch instead of the spinner.   ;)


Scott

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2021, 07:22:15 pm »
It was intentional. It's going in a cabinet running emulators so it has a magnetic 1024 point per rev usb mouse wheel encoder built in. I can just adjust the settings per game and support a lot more games.

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Re: Cheap 3D Printed Sanwa Rotary mod WIP - halfway there
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2021, 09:33:56 pm »
I hope it works well enough for your purposes, but there's a good reason that Ultimarc offers a mechanical rotary option (but no optical rotary option) for the J-Stick.   ;)
- IIRC that mechanical rotary option was released several years after an optical rotary option was released for the U360.

A number of people have complained about using optical rotary sticks for games that used mechanical rotary sticks.

The detents of the mechanical swtch make it easier to maintain aim direction when using the joystick to move U/D/L/R.

An optical rotary stick has no detents which makes it hard to tell how close you are to the aim transition points.
- Moving the joystick lever can change the spinner aim by several degrees which can cause an unexpected change in aim direction.


Scott
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 09:44:51 pm by PL1 »