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Author Topic: *Fixed* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad  (Read 1532 times)

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urbecrisch

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*Fixed* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« on: December 10, 2016, 10:46:05 pm »
Hi guys.  I got this Sinbad around 7 years ago from an auction. Needed a lot of work so I took it to a local pinball guy to fix.  I added a new Ni-Wumpf CPU board and everything was running smooth with the game.  I moved and the machine sat undisturbed in storage for the past 5 years.  I plugged in the machine tonight after getting it from storage and unfortunately it didn't work.  I'm not a pinball guy but I hope someone out there could maybe steer me in the right direction if you think it could be a quick fix.  I can't think of anything that would have damaged since it was not moved for so long. 

I checked all connectors and connections and all seem solid.
There is no recognizable loose or broken wiring.
When I power up the machine all playfield lights turn on as well as some backglass lighting. (PIC)

One thing I noticed immediately is that the Ni-Wumpf green LED light is not lit (PIC), which I believe means that that board is not getting any power.  The backglass score display shows E E  E E.(PIC)  I assume that means "error".

Any idea what could be wrong?  I'm assuming I need to check power to the Ni-Wumpf.  Possibly one of the old transformers is bad? (PIC)

Take a look at the pics and let me know what you think.

I will also contact the folks at Ni-Wumpf to try and troubleshoot with them.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2017, 11:04:12 pm by urbecrisch »

Ken Layton

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2016, 10:50:26 pm »
Test all fuses.

Measure the voltages coming out of the power supply board.

urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2016, 11:12:06 pm »
Hi Ken.  Be gentle with me :)  As a newbie for testing the fuses and voltage from the power supply, how do i go about doing that?

pbj

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2016, 11:14:45 pm »
Lights coming on mean nothing besides transformers are working, MPU is not involved in that.

Email ace@ni-wumpf.com


Those Ni Wumpf boards are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, btw.  Don't tell him I sent you.




urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2016, 11:25:09 pm »
If worse case scenario that the board does not work.  What is the next best solution? Would the PI-1/X4 board be an option?

ed12

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2016, 12:32:26 am »
do as ken said chk all fuses
+5 is the logic voltage for that board
btw david is 1 hell of a nice person, ( met him personal like)
that board however is now super seeded
u would need to send it to dave (do not expect warrnety) after 7 years
as he crew is the olny 1's doing service work that i know of in usa
i have done some in canada for dave. but if u are usa bound send to him

ed
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ed12

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2016, 12:59:48 am »
i do however have a few questions for u
did u up-grade the very ---smurfy--- power supply ?
did u replace the split plugs going into the system 1 board ?
davids board or that 1 has been super seeded (they no longer make that 1)
there was a (tbs) sent out to all sellers and myself about this change over a year ago
btw here is a link to everything u ever want to know
>http://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2159<

ed
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Ken Layton

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2016, 01:21:44 am »
You say it was in storage for several years. Lots of things can happen during that time. Connector pins can tarnish/crack, fuseholders can fatigue/tarnish/crack, moisture/dampness can corrode electronic components such as on the power supply.

Has the power supply ever been rebuilt?

When you got the Ni-Wumpf board, did you have the machine's connectors repinned?

Were any of the ground mods ever performed?

Was the power supply board to cpu board power cable replaced?

ed12

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2016, 01:30:42 am »
ground mods
dam good point ken
thank you for catching that 1 :)

ed
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pbj

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2016, 01:09:49 pm »
It's probably a connector problem, it almost always is with these machines.

Check the pins on the cables going to your Ni Wumpf boards.  Hose em down with contact cleaner.  Unplug and replug them a few times.  That will probably get you running again.


urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2016, 01:21:32 pm »
As far as I know all ground mods were done. The fact that the Ni-Wumpf board is getting no power has to be the problem. The power supply was not replaced but I do recall the gentleman who repaired it years ago replaced the known capacitor issue.  Once I find my multi meter I will check the fuses. I will also clean the connectors again and see what happens.

urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2016, 04:52:32 pm »
Tested the fuses and they all seem to be functioning fine.  According to pinrepair.com I tested the voltage coming from the transformer to the power supply board.  All volts tested fine except for the last 2 wires which tested only about half of what they should have (35v instead of 69).  Any reason for this?  The power supply board is hot when I touch the back as well.

A2-P1 pin 1 = 11.5 volts AC (wht/blue). LEFT MOST PIN.
A2-P1 pin 2 = 11.5 volts AC Return (wht/org)
A2-P1 pin 3 = common (ground, black)
A2-P1 pin 4 = 14 volts AC (wht/brn)
A2-P1 pin 5 = 14 volts AC (wht/purple)
A2-P1 pin 6 = 69 volts AC (blue/wht/red)
A2-P1 pin 7 = 69 volts AC Return (org/wht/red)

urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2016, 06:40:27 pm »
After more research I was told that the 35 VAC reading I was getting on the 2 pins was sufficient as the 69 V should not get to the CPU.  I did check the power out of the power supply board and found that the -12 DC is showing but I was only getting a +1 instead of a +5.  I think I will go ahead and just get a replacement power supply from Rottendog or GPE.  In the meantime I will shop the game out to make it look as pretty as it can.

Ken Layton

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2016, 10:16:49 pm »
The modern System 1 replacement power supplies are sooooo much better than the original power supply.

urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2016, 10:28:50 pm »
Ken, I have heard that from multiple members on the forum.  Since all fuses are good and I'm not getting +5 out of the power supply it is time for an upgrade.  I just hope once I get the replacement nothing else is wrong.  I'll post once I get it installed.  Just hoping the driver board isn't damaged...  All ground mods mods were completed in the past including bypassing the slam switch.  It needed a good cleaning anyways, especially the rings since it sat for so long most were cracked.  One question about the upper rubber rebound.  Looks like a new one came in my ring kit however the old one seems to have been welded in or something.  The old one is not being held in with a screw or anything... not sure how to swap it out?

Ken Layton

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2016, 10:56:07 pm »
The rebound rubber is easy to swap out. Just grab the rubber and pull straight off. You might need to do a little rocking action, but it should slide right up over the head of the riveted post.

urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2016, 05:24:04 pm »
**UPDATE**

So after messing with the power supply I realized I was reading the power out voltage wrong.  I am getting +5 and -12 out to the Ni-Wumpf board.  I started over only plugging in one display at a time, etc and now when I power on the game I get all displays working and it will display credits.  All of the drop targets pop up on the table but the ball kick, flippers, chimes are not working.  I took the playfield art off and most of the rings but the leaf switches to the drop targets, etc do keep score.  Any ideas on where to start the diagnostic on those?  All fuses including the solenoid fuse are working.

pbj

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2016, 09:48:06 pm »
And here I've been saying it was a connector problem, and you got the damned thing booting by doing nothing more than reseating the connectors a few times.  Told you so.

 :lol

Did you check the fuse on the underside of the playfield?


urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2016, 09:51:18 pm »
Yeah. All fuses working... but last time I booted machine the drop targets didn't reset upon game start when prior they would reser whenever I would start a new game. Also, what's the best spray to use to clean contacts and best tool to remove connector pins? The tool I was using didn't work for crappy! Those connectors are hard to remove.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:54:28 pm by urbecrisch »

pbj

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2016, 12:41:43 am »
This and a wire brush:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/CRC-Electronic-Cleaner-11-Oz./16817418

You can remove the connector pins by pushing the tabs in the narrow slots with a jewellers screwdriver.

What you're describing sounds like dirty connections between the CPU and the driver board.  That cable plugged in almost directly beneath the leaking battery on the original motherboards.  Replacing the pins in that connector will probably fix you up.

 :cheers:


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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2016, 01:56:57 pm »
**UPDATE**

So after messing with the power supply I realized I was reading the power out voltage wrong.  I am getting +5 and -12 out to the Ni-Wumpf board.  I started over only plugging in one display at a time, etc and now when I power on the game I get all displays working and it will display credits.  All of the drop targets pop up on the table but the ball kick, flippers, chimes are not working.  I took the playfield art off and most of the rings but the leaf switches to the drop targets, etc do keep score.  Any ideas on where to start the diagnostic on those?  All fuses including the solenoid fuse are working.

The slings, flippers and chimes not working sounds like it could be an issue with the game over and/or tilt relays on the underside of the playfield.  See http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gottlieb_System_1#Solenoids_and_Relays
My Projects:
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Pin-Dog a mini pin-cab on vpforums.org  Star Wars a wedgehead pincab on vpinball.com

pbj

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2016, 02:56:40 pm »
99.9% chance those relays are fine.  Definitely worth verifying that they are being activated when a game starts, though.  You can also manually activate it (by pushing on it and closing the switches) and see if your flippers and bumpers come to life.


urbecrisch

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Re: **PICS** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2016, 03:14:15 pm »
I still think some of the connectors are probably bad going from Ni-Wumpf board to driver board. Now the drop targets don't reset when a new game is credited. I ordered a new harness connecting thwith boards cause I'm too lazy and don't have the parts to do it now. Just thought it was easier that way. I still may upgrade my power supply just to avoid the oberheating... Regarding testing the relays...what do you mean by pushing on it and closing the switches?

urbecrisch

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Re: **SOLVED** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2016, 08:55:41 am »
PBJ was right all along...bad connectors. I received my new CPU to driver board harness and she fired right up!  Tested the flippers, bumpers, ect and seems like everything is working. Started reinstalling the playfield and rubber ring kit so hopefully I will be good to go.  If I have any issues I'll report back. Thanks to everyone on the forum for suggestions/feedback. Happy gaming!

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Re: **SOLVED** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2016, 09:33:54 am »
That's great news, thanks for posting a follow up.

 :cheers:

Ken Layton

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Re: **SOLVED** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2016, 10:49:32 am »
I mentioned connectors too, back in post # 7. ;)

Glad it's up and running. :)

urbecrisch

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Re: **SOLVED** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2016, 10:59:00 am »
Yes Ken. Thanks. You also pointed out the grounding mods and fuses which was helpful. It was educational going through the pinwiki system 1 document. I learned a lot about my machine which I didn't know before. Makes me want to check CL for another system 1 I can bring back to life! Amazing though how much these older machines have gone up in price. I bought mine (working) for $200 at auction. Granted I put some time and money into it but some machines in the same condition as mine are asking +1K !  I'm bummed that there are no more actions in Milwaukee. 5 years ago we would get at least 4-5/year with loads of machines! Should have bought more back then :)

Ken Layton

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Re: **SOLVED** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2016, 12:27:11 pm »
Sure those system 1 machines are a bit "primitive" in terms of technology, but they're still fun to play IMO.

If a Pascal Janin replacement cpu or all-in-one board gets installed, then the game is also so much the better because of improved hardware and software.

In my area, pinball prices are still high, but nobody is buying any machines.

urbecrisch

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Re: **SOLVED** Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2016, 03:48:01 pm »
Well, I spoke to soon. Lol. What is happening is that I can put in credits and starthe a game but then when I hit the flippers a few times the game stalls and then the flippers,chimes, etc stop working. Not sure how to trouble shoot this. Is it a grounding issue? I can start a new game but it happens again with the flippers and chimes, etc again.

urbecrisch

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Re: *Still have issues* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2016, 04:13:55 pm »
Man this thing is glitchy now. Well, after messing with the connectors again I can play a game but some of the leafs aren't activating right away. Even the ball kick sometime seems to get stuck. I will give all connectors a good cleaning. Have some quick drying spray I hope will do the trick. I may replace some leaf switches cause some are corroded pretty good. Where is the best place for replacement leafs?

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Re: *Still have issues* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2016, 08:32:24 pm »
Pinch the leaf switches onto a business card and rub it back and forth.  Those things rarely go bad.


urbecrisch

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Re: *Still have issues* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2016, 10:27:22 pm »
Looks like I need to repin some connectors which is causing some inconsistencies with gameplay. What size are the CPU and driver board pins? .156?

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Re: *Still have issues* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2016, 11:09:18 pm »
just call these ppl
http://www.marcospecialties.com
they make a interface cable complete for you
will be cheaper and faster then what u want to do
plus if u are a novice then u will have no fear of frying your driver board

ed
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Re: *Still have issues* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2016, 11:37:03 pm »
I have already replaced the entire connector from CPU to driver board. I just need to repin a few connections that came loose by me pulling lightly on them. I cannot replace the entire connector because it goes to the displays and under the playfield. I already replaced a few pins I ordered from Marcos 5 years ago.  I just don't know the size and I need more. I think they're .156

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Re: *Still have issues* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2016, 02:02:07 am »
You want the .156" size. Great Plains Electronics has them.

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/products.asp?cat=77

The ones you will be buying are these:

08-50-0108 for 22 to 26 gauge wires (typically used on the switches and displays)

08-52-0072 for 18 to 20 gauge wires (typically used for power wires, ground wires, and to solenoids)

urbecrisch

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Re: *Fixed* Need Help With Gottlieb Sinbad
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2017, 11:11:26 pm »
Just a quick update... after repinning the display connector on the CPU board, pinball plays like I remember it.  I am having a few bulb issues but nothing I can't handle.  I have some new bulbs, the brighter ones but I read they can damage the playfield so I may just use the dimmed lights.  The game is not on all that often so maybe the brighter bulbs would be fine?  The only other problem is the ball kick.  The leaf is not connecting well.  I tried cleaning and doing the business card trick but it doesn't want to play nice.  Its like I have to "bend" the leaf more or put something between the plastic of the ball return and the metal leaf switch underneath.  Kinda hard to explain but I think I can get it to work better.  I needed to raise the back legs a bit more because the ball would get stuck in certain spots so I think I'm good there.  Thanks for all your help.  Couldn't have done it without you guys :)  Any other problems I know where to come!

  
 

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