So ... 3d Printers....

[PL1]

The photos you posted here show the info that I wanted to confirm. (click for full-size)   
- Looks like there is probably enough vertical clearance for the PCB screws to go straight through the back cover.










Scott

[pbj]

Definitely enough clearance.  Maybe the simplest solution is drill through the back, and just glue the front on with something that's firm but not permanent (hot glue, silicon...)

[yotsuya]

Man, oh man, I am loving the M600 command….


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[Vigo]

Looks good! 

[bobbyb13]

That's rad.

I have to keep telling myself...

Don't need another hobby-
Don't need another hobby-
Don't need another hobby-

[eds1275]

Don't need another hobby-
Don't need another hobby-
Don't need another hobby-

Me either... but... I can't stop being creative!

[yotsuya]

I don’t look at it as a hobby so much as a tool. In 20 years, these things will be standard in any new home, watch.


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[nitrogen_widget]

Man, oh man, I am loving the M600 command….


/img]

very cool.

[BadMouth]

I don’t look at it as a hobby so much as a tool. In 20 years, these things will be standard in any new home, watch.


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....a tool that's always one upgrade away from being better, but somehow will always be short of what you'd like it to be.

I print a bunch of oddball stuff around the house, but the time and money spent on the printer, designing parts, and experimenting with new materials will always be a net loss.  I accept because it is a hobby.

[RandyT]

I don’t look at it as a hobby so much as a tool. In 20 years, these things will be standard in any new home, watch.

As user-friendly as modeling tools have become, there's likely to still be a broad swath of people who won't have the mechanical ability, patience or interest in learning, to actually make a scenario like that very likely.  Heck, most home wiring and plumbing is pretty simple and has been for quite a long time, yet electricians and plumbers always seem to have plenty of work at the prices they demand.

As complicated as these machines can be in use and maintenance, I just don't see it.  Now, if someone comes up with a water washable. food-safe resin one could strike with a hammer or screw into without worry of it breaking, an SLA printer with modular, plug-in replacement parts from Home Depot and AI-driven modeling software capable of creating models from natural-speech descriptions,  I  might say "maybe"

[yotsuya]

I don’t look at it as a hobby so much as a tool. In 20 years, these things will be standard in any new home, watch.

As user-friendly as modeling tools have become, there's likely to still be a broad swath of people who won't have the mechanical ability, patience or interest in learning, to actually make a scenario like that very likely.  Heck, most home wiring and plumbing is pretty simple and has been for quite a long time, yet electricians and plumbers always seem to have plenty of work at the prices they demand.

As complicated as these machines can be in use and maintenance, I just don't see it.  Now, if someone comes up with a water washable. food-safe resin one could strike with a hammer or screw into without worry of it breaking, an SLA printer with modular, plug-in replacement parts from Home Depot and AI-driven modeling software capable of creating models from natural-speech descriptions,  I  might say "maybe"

That’s why I’m thinking it will be about 20 years down the road. The ease of use isn’t there yet, but my experience with the Prusa shows it’s well on the way.

I used to recommend to people to get a cheap Chinese printer to learn about 3D printing. Not anymore. I’m going to tell them to open their wallet and invest in a Prusa.


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[bobbyb13]

I don’t look at it as a hobby so much as a tool. In 20 years, these things will be standard in any new home, watch.

As user-friendly as modeling tools have become, there's likely to still be a broad swath of people who won't have the mechanical ability, patience or interest in learning, to actually make a scenario like that very likely.  Heck, most home wiring and plumbing is pretty simple and has been for quite a long time, yet electricians and plumbers always seem to have plenty of work at the prices they demand.

As complicated as these machines can be in use and maintenance, I just don't see it.  Now, if someone comes up with a water washable. food-safe resin one could strike with a hammer or screw into without worry of it breaking, an SLA printer with modular, plug-in replacement parts from Home Depot and AI-driven modeling software capable of creating models from natural-speech descriptions,  I  might say "maybe"

That’s why I’m thinking it will be about 20 years down the road. The ease of use isn’t there yet, but my experience with the Prusa shows it’s well on the way.

I used to recommend to people to get a cheap Chinese printer to learn about 3D printing. Not anymore. I’m going to tell them to open their wallet and invest in a Prusa.


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I can appreciate your enthusiasm for the discipline yotsuya! but I suspect RandyT is correct as regards the populace in general.
All of you posting here are an anomaly, certainly as regards intellect, interest, discpline, etc.

The bread and circuses crew will never get to where you are until a 3d printer works like a microwave.
Most people couldn't bother to read a package or even pay attention to what was going on once they pressed 'Start' , so now even such a mindless machine as a microwave has a 'Popcorn' button.

Scratch that even.
Never mind everything I wrote after the word 'are.'

[yotsuya]

I don’t look at it as a hobby so much as a tool. In 20 years, these things will be standard in any new home, watch.

As user-friendly as modeling tools have become, there's likely to still be a broad swath of people who won't have the mechanical ability, patience or interest in learning, to actually make a scenario like that very likely.  Heck, most home wiring and plumbing is pretty simple and has been for quite a long time, yet electricians and plumbers always seem to have plenty of work at the prices they demand.

As complicated as these machines can be in use and maintenance, I just don't see it.  Now, if someone comes up with a water washable. food-safe resin one could strike with a hammer or screw into without worry of it breaking, an SLA printer with modular, plug-in replacement parts from Home Depot and AI-driven modeling software capable of creating models from natural-speech descriptions,  I  might say "maybe"

That’s why I’m thinking it will be about 20 years down the road. The ease of use isn’t there yet, but my experience with the Prusa shows it’s well on the way.

I used to recommend to people to get a cheap Chinese printer to learn about 3D printing. Not anymore. I’m going to tell them to open their wallet and invest in a Prusa.


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I can appreciate your enthusiasm for the discipline yotsuya! but I suspect RandyT is correct as regards the populace in general.
All of you posting here are an anomaly, certainly as regards intellect, interest, discpline, etc.

The bread and circuses crew will never get to where you are until a 3d printer works like a microwave.
Most people couldn't bother to read a package or even pay attention to what was going on once they pressed 'Start' , so now even such a mindless machine as a microwave has a 'Popcorn' button.

Scratch that even.
Never mind everything I wrote after the word 'are.'

You’d be surprised how many 3-8 graders are learning to create and print objects in school due to STEM programs. That’s why I say 20 years.


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[bobbyb13]

I hope you're right!

The kids in my household are sharp as a scalpel compared to their peers, but I truly do fear for the future- certainly in the islands.
I'm from the NE corridor myself and it is remarkable how behind the curve we are out here in regards to scholastics on average.
Producing more NFL players than astronauts, for sure.

Heaven above do I sound old, just to myself even-

[RandyT]

I guess even microwaves and toasters break and stop working, but really not nearly at the frequency of most 3d printers.  I wonder how ubiquitous microwaves would be if they suddenly stopped working because you tried heating the wrong food or set the time incorrectly.  Consumers tend to expect reliability from appliances which cost more than a couple hundred dollars and since what we are talking about are using precision motion- control mechanical components, the cost is in line with refrigerators, washing machines and stoves, which usually last a couple of decades with constant use.  I.e. unless something changes drastically, it'll be a hard sell to "normies". 

I've finally made a bit of progress in my never ending saga. My "little guy" is finally back up and running.  It was literally spitting out it's all-metal hot end, thanks to some questionable engineering, and the filament advance was broken due to age and constant stressing of the 3d printed ABS parts designed to flex.  A drilled and tapped hole for a grub screw, some well-placed massaging with a hot soldering iron and a new heating cartridge put it back into action.  After watching how well this little printer seems to like ABS (with a raft on perfboard), I'm happy to have it back in the arsenal to help with repairs.

The photos show it in progress on an ABS direct extruder motor mount for the big guy next to it.  Right from the Chinese factory, that $2000 beast had many stripped screws and the poorly thought-out hot end was oozing plastic at the threads after the third print.  It eventually spat out the nozzle and tube when those threads failed.  I'm currently converting it from a 3mm Bowden extruder to a more standard 1.75mm direct extrusion meant for a completely different printer.  I'll lose about 50mm in the Y, but at least it should actually work.  Fortunately the old firmware on the machine allows for tuning steps and I was actually able to air print something from the computer, so I'll give it a chance before changing it's brain.

Now waiting for some longer stepper cables and I'll need to machine some large standoffs on the lathe and get some longer screws to raise the bed, so it reaches the new nozzle position.  Getting closer!

[nitrogen_widget]

I don’t look at it as a hobby so much as a tool. In 20 years, these things will be standard in any new home, watch.

As user-friendly as modeling tools have become, there's likely to still be a broad swath of people who won't have the mechanical ability, patience or interest in learning, to actually make a scenario like that very likely.  Heck, most home wiring and plumbing is pretty simple and has been for quite a long time, yet electricians and plumbers always seem to have plenty of work at the prices they demand.

As complicated as these machines can be in use and maintenance, I just don't see it.  Now, if someone comes up with a water washable. food-safe resin one could strike with a hammer or screw into without worry of it breaking, an SLA printer with modular, plug-in replacement parts from Home Depot and AI-driven modeling software capable of creating models from natural-speech descriptions,  I  might say "maybe"

That’s why I’m thinking it will be about 20 years down the road. The ease of use isn’t there yet, but my experience with the Prusa shows it’s well on the way.

I used to recommend to people to get a cheap Chinese printer to learn about 3D printing. Not anymore. I’m going to tell them to open their wallet and invest in a Prusa.


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compared to my chiron the vyper feels like cheating.
i just finished a 54 hour print.
no issues.
with a cura profile off the FB group.
i'd recommend this printer to first timers.

[yotsuya]

I guess even microwaves and toasters break and stop working, but really not nearly at the frequency of most 3d printers.  I wonder how ubiquitous microwaves would be if they suddenly stopped working because you tried heating the wrong food or set the time incorrectly.  Consumers tend to expect reliability from appliances which cost more than a couple hundred dollars and since what we are talking about are using precision motion- control mechanical components, the cost is in line with refrigerators, washing machines and stoves, which usually last a couple of decades with constant use.  I.e. unless something changes drastically, it'll be a hard sell to "normies". 

That’s why I’ve clearly stated I think it’ll be about two decades down the road. Come on, you know that technology is constantly improving. E3D has just come out with a nozzle that you can change with your fingers, no tools or fear of burning yourself. Technology advancements and improvements like that will benefit consumers 20 years from now.


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[RandyT]

That’s why I’ve clearly stated I think it’ll be about two decades down the road. Come on, you know that technology is constantly improving. E3D has just come out with a nozzle that you can change with your fingers, no tools or fear of burning yourself. Technology advancements and improvements like that will benefit consumers 20 years from now.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=post;topic=152421.1200;last_msg=1753359#postmodify

The catch with these is that unless they are WIDELY accepted, the cost of these types of systems will be prohibitive.  A 49 cent nozzle which works fine in the hands of the actual enthusiast will prevent that wide adoption when the alternatives are 100x+ more costly.

In 20 years, I find a much more likely scenario is that FDM printers are relegated to history and will be supplanted by something more capable and user-friendly.  As I mentioned earlier, FDM is literally built upon a 70 year old concept, which just happens to be one of it's majorly limiting facets.

compared to my chiron the vyper feels like cheating.
i just finished a 54 hour print.
no issues.
with a cura profile off the FB group.
i'd recommend this printer to first timers.

And that's the FDM rub.  Amazon reviews (taken for what they are) show the Vyper to have ~25% of reviewers being somewhat to terribly dissatisfied with the purchase.  And it looks like a very nice printer!  While some of that can be chalked up to manufacturing issues, which should only be a few percent, there's still a lot of "not happy" purchasers.   I believe a good chunk of it is nearly impossible expectations given the technology in use.

I've actually had a change in thought.  The fact that just about every printer at a price point is nearly identical nowadays, it gives a good indication that, for the money, that design delivers the best possible result.  Unless one has mushrooms growing between their ears ( ) I think a good recommendation would be to jump in on one with the least negative reviews for manufacturing issues, play with it and learn it well.  Then, if the hobby is found to be enticing, begin doing the upgrades yourself to turn it into a better printer.  Because the models are so similar, there is an abundance of inexpensive options for upgrading it to a very good printer.  And doing it yourself means that if you need to fix something (you will) you will know right where to go and how to do it.

Everyone else should throw money at it if available.

[yotsuya]

Remember there was a time when the only place you could find a computer was a college campus? Yeah.


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[RandyT]

Remember there was a time when the only place you could find a computer was a college campus? Yeah.

Sorry.  I don't see that as refuting the points I made   Widespread adoption, which is brought about by ease of use, reliability, price tags and intense consumer desire for what the technology offers is what brought about the information age.  FDM printing, as incredibly useful as it is for a certain segment of the population, just isn't as enticing to average, non-creative, and/or non-mechanically inclined consumers.

[yotsuya]

Remember there was a time when the only place you could find a computer was a college campus? Yeah.

Sorry.  I don't see that as refuting the points I made   Widespread adoption, which is brought about by ease of use, reliability, price tags and intense consumer desire for what the technology offers is what brought about the information age.  FDM printing, as incredibly useful as it is for a certain segment of the population, just isn't as enticing to average, non-creative, and/or non-mechanically inclined consumers.

I had a friend here reach out about printing some replacement handles for his shower doors. When people realize they can do stuff like that, and the technology is there to make it easier for them (in, say, 20 years), they’ll find it incredibly useful.


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[RandyT]

I had a friend here reach out about printing some replacement handles for his shower doors. When people realize they can do stuff like that, and the technology is there to make it easier for them (in, say, 20 years), they’ll find it incredibly useful.

No doubt.  But if that same friend had to spend what you did , learned how to design the models, waited 4 hours for his handles to prints, nicked himself a couple of times with the sharp tools required to clean up the print and had to listen to his wife always asking when he was going to get REAL handles for her shower, his interest will likely have waned considerably.  And God help him if he experienced a machine malfunction or clog somewhere during the process

FDM (and current SLA) technology doesn't really deliver on the promise average consumers want to believe is true. Those who do enough research into the technology already know this and either accept it for what it is (an investment/toy unlikely to ever pay for itself for many who use it) or immediately discard the notion of investing their time and capital to get involved in it.

There are always those for whom it is a godsend and I am one of them.  I am atypical (in more ways than one )

[yotsuya]

I don’t disagree with you on a lot of points, I’m just not discounting the fact that
a) there are a lot of young kids right now learning about 3-D printing technology, so by the time they’re adults, it won’t be so foreign and
b) I’m assuming the industry is going to innovate and refine in the next two decades. I have no doubt it’s not gonna look the same as it does today.

Is my mom gonna run out and buy a 3D printer in 20 years when she’s 87? Probably not. Will my daughter, who is taking design classes in college right now and learning about 3-D printing? You bet, if she doesn’t already have one because she’s already learned the basic principles and has already experimented with them.


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[BadMouth]

In 20 years, I find a much more likely scenario is that FDM printers are relegated to history and will be supplanted by something more capable and user-friendly.  As I mentioned earlier, FDM is literally built upon a 70

I am with Randy on this one.  If they become a standard household appliance, it won't be the FDM version.
I handed an air duct adapter to a friend to show off the print quality.  He has no experience with 3D printing and was very put off by the .2mm layer lines.
It was not the reaction I expected.

The only technology I see as a possibility is PolyJet.  InkJet printer style nozzles deposit resin and are followed by a UV light that cures the resin as it is deposited.
If an affordable desktop PolyJet printer could print three dimensional objects as well and as simply as inkjet printers print photographs, then we would have something.
This isn't a new technology either and the price would have to come down tenfold before even hobbyists mess with it.

[Howard_Casto]

I also agree with Randy.   It's very much one of those specialty tools that the average consumer isn't going to want or need but that's compounded by the fact that it just doesn't work reliably.   Is a microwave a ---smurfy--- way to cook food?  Sure, but it does heat things pretty reliably, so it caught on.  3d printers need to do at least one thing reliably before they will ever go mainstream and due to the limits to the technology, I don't see that ever happening.   

[yotsuya]

Well, let’s just check in in 20 years and see what’s going on.


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[bobbyb13]

Well, let’s just check in in 20 years and see what’s going on.


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You very well could be right.
Ironically, it will be YOU all here who succeed in re-engineering these things into units functional enough that one COULD build a printer for the masses.

I always check in on this thread because I enjoy watching you all take products that are still in beta- as far as I am concerened and turn them into functional machines.

Maybe I deal with the public more often or intimately than some of you but I can tell you that you gents are not the norm.

I'm sharper than your average bowling ball and there are scads of discussione here that I sometimes read a few times just to remind myself that they had been typed in english.

[RandyT]

The only technology I see as a possibility is PolyJet.  InkJet printer style nozzles deposit resin and are followed by a UV light that cures the resin as it is deposited.
If an affordable desktop PolyJet printer could print three dimensional objects as well and as simply as inkjet printers print photographs, then we would have something.
This isn't a new technology either and the price would have to come down tenfold before even hobbyists mess with it.

The latest craze in sign making are the printers which use UV curable "ink".  The major issues with the earlier printers are the solvent -based inks, which are nasty to work near, but which also quickly dry up on and around the tiny print nozzles, leading to clogs and very costly repairs.  The UV curable inks are much slower to dry, and really only do so fully in the presence of UV.  They are already printing multiple layers with the machines for raised lettering you can feel, which also increases durability and fade resistance.

The problem is that this technology is SLOW as the head must use raster motion algorithms to lay down the tiny layers.  Obviously, the smaller the layer, the better the quality, so something like this may be worth the wait.

I have no idea if this already exists, but an interesting machine would be one which uses a UV curable resin "goop" which can be accurately dispensed from a nozzle and subsequently cured by UV to create the layers.  However, unless the "goop" is sufficiently stringy and fast curing enough to deal with unsupported overhangs, without negatively affecting print quality, then the method wouldn't be very useful.  "Goop" also tends to easily trap air, so it would need to come in vacuum treated and sealed pouches, and a certain amount would need to be expelled when changing or adding resin, just to make sure none got in the dispensing path.

That's just one possibility which borrows from current (old) technology and blends with it, something newer.  Just removing the heat and thermal breakdown from the materials would go a long way to alleviate the current issues with FDM (which it technically would still be ).  But this seems like an unlikely path for the technology, as SLA printers work much more efficiently and results would be limited in the same ways due to the current state of resin formulation.  The good news is that technology is actually pushing forward on this front, with new and better resins being formulated at a pretty good pace.  This is why I believe that SLA (or similar) technology is the future of 3D printing.  Simpler operation, less moving parts, better results and a more viable path moving forward for achieving durable and genuinely useful parts.

[pbj]

If it floats, flies, 3D prints, or ---smurfs--- - borrow your friend's.

[nitrogen_widget]

That’s why I’ve clearly stated I think it’ll be about two decades down the road. Come on, you know that technology is constantly improving. E3D has just come out with a nozzle that you can change with your fingers, no tools or fear of burning yourself. Technology advancements and improvements like that will benefit consumers 20 years from now.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?action=post;topic=152421.1200;last_msg=1753359#postmodify

The catch with these is that unless they are WIDELY accepted, the cost of these types of systems will be prohibitive.  A 49 cent nozzle which works fine in the hands of the actual enthusiast will prevent that wide adoption when the alternatives are 100x+ more costly.

In 20 years, I find a much more likely scenario is that FDM printers are relegated to history and will be supplanted by something more capable and user-friendly.  As I mentioned earlier, FDM is literally built upon a 70 year old concept, which just happens to be one of it's majorly limiting facets.

compared to my chiron the vyper feels like cheating.
i just finished a 54 hour print.
no issues.
with a cura profile off the FB group.
i'd recommend this printer to first timers.

And that's the FDM rub.  Amazon reviews (taken for what they are) show the Vyper to have ~25% of reviewers being somewhat to terribly dissatisfied with the purchase.  And it looks like a very nice printer!  While some of that can be chalked up to manufacturing issues, which should only be a few percent, there's still a lot of "not happy" purchasers.   I believe a good chunk of it is nearly impossible expectations given the technology in use.

I've actually had a change in thought.  The fact that just about every printer at a price point is nearly identical nowadays, it gives a good indication that, for the money, that design delivers the best possible result.  Unless one has mushrooms growing between their ears ( ) I think a good recommendation would be to jump in on one with the least negative reviews for manufacturing issues, play with it and learn it well.  Then, if the hobby is found to be enticing, begin doing the upgrades yourself to turn it into a better printer.  Because the models are so similar, there is an abundance of inexpensive options for upgrading it to a very good printer.  And doing it yourself means that if you need to fix something (you will) you will know right where to go and how to do it.

Everyone else should throw money at it if available.

I will say the most common problem with the vyper is the strain gauge which is used for leveling can break way too easily if the printhead crashed into the bed or a print.
i'm the type of guy who drops his fricken build plate into his resin printer's vat wrecking the FEP and the screen so i ordered a spare.
sometimes they do come broke from the factory and almost all of the anycubic fdm's suffer from loose fasteners.

i belong to the FB groups where people post their problems and 95% of it is user error / ignorance on how these printers work.
90% of their problems is bed adhesion from not leveling the bed.
very few of the people who have had problems legit had a bad part or dead board on their printer.
it comes down to people seeing pretty pictures of prints and not understanding it's a PITA to dial a printer in to get great prints.
usually.
i'm still amazed by the vyper. lol.

I just bought an aquila fdm for $100 in pieces.
that's almost half price.
it was a return.
it looks like the person who bought it couldn't assemble it.
it was never heated up with filament in it.
that much i can tell.
could be a dead board.

i'll find out after i finish replacing the wire harness on my 3yr old chiron. 

[nitrogen_widget]

Remember there was a time when the only place you could find a computer was a college campus? Yeah.

Sorry.  I don't see that as refuting the points I made   Widespread adoption, which is brought about by ease of use, reliability, price tags and intense consumer desire for what the technology offers is what brought about the information age.  FDM printing, as incredibly useful as it is for a certain segment of the population, just isn't as enticing to average, non-creative, and/or non-mechanically inclined consumers.

I had a friend here reach out about printing some replacement handles for his shower doors. When people realize they can do stuff like that, and the technology is there to make it easier for them (in, say, 20 years), they’ll find it incredibly useful.


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I actually printed replacement handles for the sliding access door on my keggerator.
It had been broken for a while and just sucked to use because it was more of a piece of raised plastic you pushed and pulled on instead of an actual handle you could grip.
PET-G of course since it is outside.

[RandyT]

i belong to the FB groups where people post their problems and 95% of it is user error / ignorance on how these printers work.
90% of their problems is bed adhesion from not leveling the bed.
very few of the people who have had problems legit had a bad part or dead board on their printer.
it comes down to people seeing pretty pictures of prints and not understanding it's a PITA to dial a printer in to get great prints.
usually.
i'm still amazed by the vyper. lol.

I'd say that was a pretty good assessment of the situation.  It doesn't matter how many times it is stated that the first layer is the most important for achieving a good print.  What's as important is that the individual needs to fully understand how to reach that delicate balance between bed adhesion and thickness/uniformity for that first layer.  And of course, how to get there varies with type/brand of filament being used.  But it's absolutely true, assuming the rest of the machine is assembled and functioning as intended.

Time will tell, but I'm currently convinced that the "bed slingers" upgraded with dual Z-Axis, an optics-based bed probe (with appropriate mesh-leveling firmware), and a direct extruder, optionally with an all-metal hot-end, will provide the best bang-for-buck and help to achieve that balance more easily.  The mid-grade machines like the Vyper already have these (or similar) installed, which is what I believe accounts for the better experience you are having with it.  Fortunately for you, Anycubic hasn't deviated too much in the design, so you'll have options down the road for repairs/upgrades when needed

I actually ordered a similar Cubicon Prime unit, but immediately regretted it when I looked more deeply into the cost of ownership and ease of getting parts, specifically the nozzles for their fancy hot-end.  The company is relatively obscure, and the parts are patented/uncommon so less likelihood of 3rd party replacements.  And of course, this leads to them being able to charge whatever they desire for them, or ceasing production when the next revision arrives.  This happens to be exactly what I am experiencing with the Zortrax and UP! units and it's not a fun ride.  It's a shame that many of the nice, feature-rich machines end up like this and I understand that it's somewhat necessary for the sake of progress.  But I've learned my lesson   Even the "perfectly functioning out-of-the-box" units will eventually need TLC and as far as I'm concerned, the easier it is to provide it, the better the printer is.

*edit*
Oh, and forgot to mention...Amazon screwed up and eventually declared the package lost, so I bailed on the Cubicon.

[RandyT]

Quick note for those who might care.  An ET4 printer seems to be an ET4 printer, regardless of manufacturer, so long as features are the same.  If you directly flash the MCU, that probably doesn't matter either, as the boards are identical.

My Labists works again and now thinks it's an Anet.  Silent steppers to boot!

[nitrogen_widget]

i belong to the FB groups where people post their problems and 95% of it is user error / ignorance on how these printers work.
90% of their problems is bed adhesion from not leveling the bed.
very few of the people who have had problems legit had a bad part or dead board on their printer.
it comes down to people seeing pretty pictures of prints and not understanding it's a PITA to dial a printer in to get great prints.
usually.
i'm still amazed by the vyper. lol.

I'd say that was a pretty good assessment of the situation.  It doesn't matter how many times it is stated that the first layer is the most important for achieving a good print.  What's as important is that the individual needs to fully understand how to reach that delicate balance between bed adhesion and thickness/uniformity for that first layer.  And of course, how to get there varies with type/brand of filament being used.  But it's absolutely true, assuming the rest of the machine is assembled and functioning as intended.

Time will tell, but I'm currently convinced that the "bed slingers" upgraded with dual Z-Axis, an optics-based bed probe (with appropriate mesh-leveling firmware), and a direct extruder, optionally with an all-metal hot-end, will provide the best bang-for-buck and help to achieve that balance more easily.  The mid-grade machines like the Vyper already have these (or similar) installed, which is what I believe accounts for the better experience you are having with it.  Fortunately for you, Anycubic hasn't deviated too much in the design, so you'll have options down the road for repairs/upgrades when needed

I actually ordered a similar Cubicon Prime unit, but immediately regretted it when I looked more deeply into the cost of ownership and ease of getting parts, specifically the nozzles for their fancy hot-end.  The company is relatively obscure, and the parts are patented/uncommon so less likelihood of 3rd party replacements.  And of course, this leads to them being able to charge whatever they desire for them, or ceasing production when the next revision arrives.  This happens to be exactly what I am experiencing with the Zortrax and UP! units and it's not a fun ride.  It's a shame that many of the nice, feature-rich machines end up like this and I understand that it's somewhat necessary for the sake of progress.  But I've learned my lesson   Even the "perfectly functioning out-of-the-box" units will eventually need TLC and as far as I'm concerned, the easier it is to provide it, the better the printer is.

*edit*
Oh, and forgot to mention...Amazon screwed up and eventually declared the package lost, so I bailed on the Cubicon.

agree on dual z's.
i'm redoing my chirons hot end along with wire harness and didn't want to go the direct drive route because i just replaced the extruder and calibrated e-steps.
but, if i'm replacing the whole hot end bracket i'm thinking of printing up the direct drive also.

edit: yeah i have a right hand duel drive extruder.
just need the slim stepper so going direct drive. 
it took so much to convince also. lol.

was planning on v6 volcano with copper heat break.
I have a BLtouch also and it looks like there is some voodoo i can do to make that work with the stock board so i may go there also.
though i manually leveled the giant glass bed good enough to fill the whole tray with parts and not have adhesion issues.

[RandyT]

agree on dual z's.
i'm redoing my chirons hot end along with wire harness and didn't want to go the direct drive route because i just replaced the extruder and calibrated e-steps.
but, if i'm replacing the whole hot end bracket i'm thinking of printing up the direct drive also.

edit: yeah i have a right hand duel drive extruder.
just need the slim stepper so going direct drive. 
it took so much to convince also. lol.

was planning on v6 volcano with copper heat break.
I have a BLtouch also and it looks like there is some voodoo i can do to make that work with the stock board so i may go there also.
though i manually leveled the giant glass bed good enough to fill the whole tray with parts and not have adhesion issues.

Just watch for "ringing" in the print surface if using a direct extruder on such a large machine.  If the parts are functional rather than purely cosmetic, it's not really an issue and direct is usually a better overall setup.  Auto-bed leveling is more a quality-of-life thing, but I think that it's especially important on a dual-Z machine and that leveling is performed at least once when the machine is powered on, although it's best done before each print if you can afford the time.  I believe the Chiron has dual Z homing sensors, so that would take some of the possible issues out of the equation.  But if you're ok with doing it manually, and the firmware supports manual mesh leveling, then the bed probe sensor isn't really a necessity.

Through a series of fortunate events, I ended up with the Cubicon PRIME unit anyway.  It got itself "un-lost" and showed up on my doorstep yesterday.  Amazon told me to just keep it when I informed them.  Never before have I felt so dirty opening a box, but I set it up and checked it out.  At first glance, it looks like a normal "bed slinger" of the ET4 style, with a nice fully enclosed steel bottom section and a touch screen which also has a knob for navigating the advanced functions of the firmware.  I have to say, the unit is very well-built and feels more solid and heavy than something like an Ender 3 v2.  There is a lot of attention to detail that seems to be missing on other units and it comes mostly assembled out of the box.  One thing which jumps out immediately is the huge direct extrusion hot-end/fan assembly which necessitated a double height cross extrusion just to support it's weight.  It's clear that the machine's frame was designed around this assembly.  One of the first things I do with a new machine is force it to print one of it's demo files in ABS by tweaking the temps and fan at run-time, instead of using the supplied PLA the files are meant for.  Aside from being a bit difficult to change the values on the fly without grinding the filament, the resulting print passed with flying colors.  No curling, perfect bed adhesion and a very uniform surface.  It also printed faster than I would usually go with ABS and it did it without a problem.  The transducer in the extruder section worked exactly as it should.  There are NO bed adjustment knobs on the unit whatsoever.  You just tell the unit to perform it's mesh leveling procedure, which it does directly from the nozzle tip, and afterward set the Z-offset from the center of the table with a slip of paper or the included card.  That's it.  Done.

I really didn't want to like this printer, but I really do.  The only thing which would keep me from recommending it is the question of long-term reliability and accessibility of the specialized parts.  But if they hold up over time, it's possibly the nicest printer I have seen for the $320 (with the current $80 coupon on Amazon).  Especially when it would cost more in total to add those features to an Ender 3 V2, and still not have the same build quality.  Out of the box, and replacement parts aside, I'd have been extremely happy having this as my first 3D printer.

[BadMouth]

Had a look at that Cubicon Prime...
Proprietary nozzles?
Randy, please stop buying these things.

[RandyT]

Had a look at that Cubicon Prime...
Proprietary nozzles?
Randy, please stop buying these things.

I tried!  They wouldn't take no for an answer and gave me a 100% discount .  There is a saving grace with that machine, though.  It's built quite well and reportedly is using an MKS Robin Nano V3.0 main board for it's brain with TMC2209 motor drivers , running what looks like fairly normal Marlin 2.0 firmware.  From the looks of it, it wouldn't be too hard to slap just about any extruder on that substantial cross member/carriage plate, tweak the steps/mm and be back in business.  Much easier to do on the Cubicon than either the Zortrax or the UP! units I have.

And to be fair, they do provide a spare and the nozzles don't seem so complex that I couldn't knock off a dozen or so in a couple of hours, based on readily available parts, but who wants to do that?

But in the end, I agree.   It's hard to get past anything on a printer made from unobtainium.


*edit* Forgot the need for an alternative bed leveling device like the BLTouch/CRTouch in the mod, but still not terrible as I would want that anyway .

[nitrogen_widget]

agree on dual z's.
i'm redoing my chirons hot end along with wire harness and didn't want to go the direct drive route because i just replaced the extruder and calibrated e-steps.
but, if i'm replacing the whole hot end bracket i'm thinking of printing up the direct drive also.

edit: yeah i have a right hand duel drive extruder.
just need the slim stepper so going direct drive. 
it took so much to convince also. lol.

was planning on v6 volcano with copper heat break.
I have a BLtouch also and it looks like there is some voodoo i can do to make that work with the stock board so i may go there also.
though i manually leveled the giant glass bed good enough to fill the whole tray with parts and not have adhesion issues.

Just watch for "ringing" in the print surface if using a direct extruder on such a large machine.  If the parts are functional rather than purely cosmetic, it's not really an issue and direct is usually a better overall setup.  Auto-bed leveling is more a quality-of-life thing, but I think that it's especially important on a dual-Z machine and that leveling is performed at least once when the machine is powered on, although it's best done before each print if you can afford the time.  I believe the Chiron has dual Z homing sensors, so that would take some of the possible issues out of the equation.  But if you're ok with doing it manually, and the firmware supports manual mesh leveling, then the bed probe sensor isn't really a necessity.

Through a series of fortunate events, I ended up with the Cubicon PRIME unit anyway.  It got itself "un-lost" and showed up on my doorstep yesterday.  Amazon told me to just keep it when I informed them.  Never before have I felt so dirty opening a box, but I set it up and checked it out.  At first glance, it looks like a normal "bed slinger" of the ET4 style, with a nice fully enclosed steel bottom section and a touch screen which also has a knob for navigating the advanced functions of the firmware.  I have to say, the unit is very well-built and feels more solid and heavy than something like an Ender 3 v2.  There is a lot of attention to detail that seems to be missing on other units and it comes mostly assembled out of the box.  One thing which jumps out immediately is the huge direct extrusion hot-end/fan assembly which necessitated a double height cross extrusion just to support it's weight.  It's clear that the machine's frame was designed around this assembly.  One of the first things I do with a new machine is force it to print one of it's demo files in ABS by tweaking the temps and fan at run-time, instead of using the supplied PLA the files are meant for.  Aside from being a bit difficult to change the values on the fly without grinding the filament, the resulting print passed with flying colors.  No curling, perfect bed adhesion and a very uniform surface.  It also printed faster than I would usually go with ABS and it did it without a problem.  The transducer in the extruder section worked exactly as it should.  There are NO bed adjustment knobs on the unit whatsoever.  You just tell the unit to perform it's mesh leveling procedure, which it does directly from the nozzle tip, and afterward set the Z-offset from the center of the table with a slip of paper or the included card.  That's it.  Done.

I really didn't want to like this printer, but I really do.  The only thing which would keep me from recommending it is the question of long-term reliability and accessibility of the specialized parts.  But if they hold up over time, it's possibly the nicest printer I have seen for the $320 (with the current $80 coupon on Amazon).  Especially when it would cost more in total to add those features to an Ender 3 V2, and still not have the same build quality.  Out of the box, and replacement parts aside, I'd have been extremely happy having this as my first 3D printer.

I was told the fact the chiron is such a big machine the direct drive affects it less than a smaller printer.
however many people have done this mod without any issues plus i'm using a shorter stepper with less weight.
yeah i don't need the bl-touch but i bought it for a different printer (mini delta) and then found better firmware with a higher mesh for auto leveling and decided i didn't need it.

so i want to use it because i have it. And honestly most of my prints on the chiron go hours to days so a few minutes auto leveling are no big deal.
i do all my small stuff on my mini-delta anyways.

i wouldn't feel too bad. i've heard of people getting shipped two printers accidently and amazon told them to keep it.
the cubicon - never heard of it but let us know how it works.
auto leveling is a nice feature.

[RandyT]

I was told the fact the chiron is such a big machine the direct drive affects it less than a smaller printer.

Hmmm... I've always interpreted the issue as being from oscillations at the nozzle or bed caused by an overall lack of frame or motion component rigidity.  As the size of the structure increases, the more difficult it becomes to maintain that rigidity.  The addition of weight on any of these moving, suspended structures would tend to exacerbate such an issue.

Even so, it can be managed even if it happens, through acceleration and jerk value tuning.  With slower accelerations and direction changes, rigidity becomes less of an issue.  I doubt the large machine will have any issues which can't be addressed in one way or another.  I suppose I'll find out first-hand, as I just set up an SV-03 last night.  Not quite as big a machine as yours, but probably larger than I'll likely take advantage of very often, unless it proves reliable enough to fill that large bed with parts.   

[nitrogen_widget]

I was told the fact the chiron is such a big machine the direct drive affects it less than a smaller printer.

Hmmm... I've always interpreted the issue as being from oscillations at the nozzle or bed caused by an overall lack of frame or motion component rigidity.  As the size of the structure increases, the more difficult it becomes to maintain that rigidity.  The addition of weight on any of these moving, suspended structures would tend to exacerbate such an issue.

Even so, it can be managed even if it happens, through acceleration and jerk value tuning.  With slower accelerations and direction changes, rigidity becomes less of an issue.  I doubt the large machine will have any issues which can't be addressed in one way or another.  I suppose I'll find out first-hand, as I just set up an SV-03 last night.  Not quite as big a machine as yours, but probably larger than I'll likely take advantage of very often, unless it proves reliable enough to fill that large bed with parts.

yep. I will find out.
people are claiming 100 mm/s print speed with direct drive and volcano.
not expecting that speed. But if i can do it.

should get my right handed dual drive extruder today.
I only had the left handed which doesn't fit the bracket.

Bracket and cooling vent are painted but man paint isn't drying.
too cold outside and basement.
going to bring the parts in and put them on the heat vent to dry.

the wiring in this chiron has issues.
every wire placed in a screw terminal is tinned.
I don't care about the non-load carrying stuff like sensors and stepper wires, but the wires for the heat bed and hot end need to be fixed.
there are also many points of failure in this printer's wiring.
WAY too many junctions for sub PCB's just for the connector to the wiring harness (main reason i'm doing this).
going to eliminate them and go directly to the control board with as much as I can before going to perf board with screw terminals on the print head.
tired of stupid little clips that are non-standard size where i have to solder a clip every time i replace a thermistor or heating element.
going straight screw terminal so i can just strip the wire and jam it in there and be done.

all this said, i've never had a wiring issue or a fire with my chiron despite this happening to others.
I just have broken wires in my main harness.

there are a dozen videos on this but i'll take pics of each step and post them up.