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nitrogen_widget:

--- Quote from: yotsuya on March 14, 2022, 03:40:22 pm ---
--- Quote from: RandyT on March 14, 2022, 03:38:23 pm ---
--- Quote from: yotsuya on March 14, 2022, 03:25:35 pm ---Remember there was a time when the only place you could find a computer was a college campus? Yeah.

--- End quote ---

Sorry. I don't see that as refuting the points I made :) Widespread adoption, which is brought about by ease of use, reliability, price tags and intense consumer desire for what the technology offers is what brought about the information age. FDM printing, as incredibly useful as it is for a certain segment of the population, just isn't as enticing to average, non-creative, and/or non-mechanically inclined consumers.

--- End quote ---
I had a friend here reach out about printing some replacement handles for his shower doors. When people realize they can do stuff like that, and the technology is there to make it easier for them (in, say, 20 years), they’ll find it incredibly useful.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

--- End quote ---

I actually printed replacement handles for the sliding access door on my keggerator.
It had been broken for a while and just sucked to use because it was more of a piece of raised plastic you pushed and pulled on instead of an actual handle you could grip.
PET-G of course since it is outside.

RandyT:

--- Quote from: nitrogen_widget on March 15, 2022, 07:03:24 pm ---i belong to the FB groups where people post their problems and 95% of it is user error / ignorance on how these printers work.
90% of their problems is bed adhesion from not leveling the bed.
very few of the people who have had problems legit had a bad part or dead board on their printer.
it comes down to people seeing pretty pictures of prints and not understanding it's a PITA to dial a printer in to get great prints.
usually.
i'm still amazed by the vyper. lol.

--- End quote ---

I'd say that was a pretty good assessment of the situation. It doesn't matter how many times it is stated that the first layer is the most important for achieving a good print. What's as important is that the individual needs to fully understand how to reach that delicate balance between bed adhesion and thickness/uniformity for that first layer. And of course, how to get there varies with type/brand of filament being used. But it's absolutely true, assuming the rest of the machine is assembled and functioning as intended.

Time will tell, but I'm currently convinced that the "bed slingers" upgraded with dual Z-Axis, an optics-based bed probe (with appropriate mesh-leveling firmware), and a direct extruder, optionally with an all-metal hot-end, will provide the best bang-for-buck and help to achieve that balance more easily. The mid-grade machines like the Vyper already have these (or similar) installed, which is what I believe accounts for the better experience you are having with it. Fortunately for you, Anycubic hasn't deviated too much in the design, so you'll have options down the road for repairs/upgrades when needed

I actually ordered a similar Cubicon Prime unit, but immediately regretted it when I looked more deeply into the cost of ownership and ease of getting parts, specifically the nozzles for their fancy hot-end. The company is relatively obscure, and the parts are patented/uncommon so less likelihood of 3rd party replacements. And of course, this leads to them being able to charge whatever they desire for them, or ceasing production when the next revision arrives. This happens to be exactly what I am experiencing with the Zortrax and UP! units and it's not a fun ride. It's a shame that many of the nice, feature-rich machines end up like this and I understand that it's somewhat necessary for the sake of progress. But I've learned my lesson :) Even the "perfectly functioning out-of-the-box" units will eventually need TLC and as far as I'm concerned, the easier it is to provide it, the better the printer is.

*edit*
Oh, and forgot to mention...Amazon screwed up and eventually declared the package lost, so I bailed on the Cubicon.

RandyT:
Quick note for those who might care. An ET4 printer seems to be an ET4 printer, regardless of manufacturer, so long as features are the same. If you directly flash the MCU, that probably doesn't matter either, as the boards are identical.

My Labists works again and now thinks it's an Anet. Silent steppers to boot! :)

nitrogen_widget:

--- Quote from: RandyT on March 16, 2022, 11:17:16 am ---
--- Quote from: nitrogen_widget on March 15, 2022, 07:03:24 pm ---i belong to the FB groups where people post their problems and 95% of it is user error / ignorance on how these printers work.
90% of their problems is bed adhesion from not leveling the bed.
very few of the people who have had problems legit had a bad part or dead board on their printer.
it comes down to people seeing pretty pictures of prints and not understanding it's a PITA to dial a printer in to get great prints.
usually.
i'm still amazed by the vyper. lol.

--- End quote ---

I'd say that was a pretty good assessment of the situation. It doesn't matter how many times it is stated that the first layer is the most important for achieving a good print. What's as important is that the individual needs to fully understand how to reach that delicate balance between bed adhesion and thickness/uniformity for that first layer. And of course, how to get there varies with type/brand of filament being used. But it's absolutely true, assuming the rest of the machine is assembled and functioning as intended.

Time will tell, but I'm currently convinced that the "bed slingers" upgraded with dual Z-Axis, an optics-based bed probe (with appropriate mesh-leveling firmware), and a direct extruder, optionally with an all-metal hot-end, will provide the best bang-for-buck and help to achieve that balance more easily. The mid-grade machines like the Vyper already have these (or similar) installed, which is what I believe accounts for the better experience you are having with it. Fortunately for you, Anycubic hasn't deviated too much in the design, so you'll have options down the road for repairs/upgrades when needed

I actually ordered a similar Cubicon Prime unit, but immediately regretted it when I looked more deeply into the cost of ownership and ease of getting parts, specifically the nozzles for their fancy hot-end. The company is relatively obscure, and the parts are patented/uncommon so less likelihood of 3rd party replacements. And of course, this leads to them being able to charge whatever they desire for them, or ceasing production when the next revision arrives. This happens to be exactly what I am experiencing with the Zortrax and UP! units and it's not a fun ride. It's a shame that many of the nice, feature-rich machines end up like this and I understand that it's somewhat necessary for the sake of progress. But I've learned my lesson :) Even the "perfectly functioning out-of-the-box" units will eventually need TLC and as far as I'm concerned, the easier it is to provide it, the better the printer is.

*edit*
Oh, and forgot to mention...Amazon screwed up and eventually declared the package lost, so I bailed on the Cubicon.

--- End quote ---

agree on dual z's.
i'm redoing my chirons hot end along with wire harness and didn't want to go the direct drive route because i just replaced the extruder and calibrated e-steps.
but, if i'm replacing the whole hot end bracket i'm thinking of printing up the direct drive also.

edit: yeah i have a right hand duel drive extruder.
just need the slim stepper so going direct drive.
it took so much to convince also. lol.

was planning on v6 volcano with copper heat break.
I have a BLtouch also and it looks like there is some voodoo i can do to make that work with the stock board so i may go there also.
though i manually leveled the giant glass bed good enough to fill the whole tray with parts and not have adhesion issues.

RandyT:

--- Quote from: nitrogen_widget on March 16, 2022, 07:06:21 pm ---agree on dual z's.
i'm redoing my chirons hot end along with wire harness and didn't want to go the direct drive route because i just replaced the extruder and calibrated e-steps.
but, if i'm replacing the whole hot end bracket i'm thinking of printing up the direct drive also.

edit: yeah i have a right hand duel drive extruder.
just need the slim stepper so going direct drive.
it took so much to convince also. lol.

was planning on v6 volcano with copper heat break.
I have a BLtouch also and it looks like there is some voodoo i can do to make that work with the stock board so i may go there also.
though i manually leveled the giant glass bed good enough to fill the whole tray with parts and not have adhesion issues.

--- End quote ---

Just watch for "ringing" in the print surface if using a direct extruder on such a large machine. If the parts are functional rather than purely cosmetic, it's not really an issue and direct is usually a better overall setup. Auto-bed leveling is more a quality-of-life thing, but I think that it's especially important on a dual-Z machine and that leveling is performed at least once when the machine is powered on, although it's best done before each print if you can afford the time. I believe the Chiron has dual Z homing sensors, so that would take some of the possible issues out of the equation. But if you're ok with doing it manually, and the firmware supports manual mesh leveling, then the bed probe sensor isn't really a necessity.

Through a series of fortunate events, I ended up with the Cubicon PRIME unit anyway. It got itself "un-lost" and showed up on my doorstep yesterday. Amazon told me to just keep it when I informed them. Never before have I felt so dirty opening a box, but I set it up and checked it out. At first glance, it looks like a normal "bed slinger" of the ET4 style, with a nice fully enclosed steel bottom section and a touch screen which also has a knob for navigating the advanced functions of the firmware. I have to say, the unit is very well-built and feels more solid and heavy than something like an Ender 3 v2. There is a lot of attention to detail that seems to be missing on other units and it comes mostly assembled out of the box. One thing which jumps out immediately is the huge direct extrusion hot-end/fan assembly which necessitated a double height cross extrusion just to support it's weight. It's clear that the machine's frame was designed around this assembly. One of the first things I do with a new machine is force it to print one of it's demo files in ABS by tweaking the temps and fan at run-time, instead of using the supplied PLA the files are meant for. Aside from being a bit difficult to change the values on the fly without grinding the filament, the resulting print passed with flying colors. No curling, perfect bed adhesion and a very uniform surface. It also printed faster than I would usually go with ABS and it did it without a problem. The transducer in the extruder section worked exactly as it should. There are NO bed adjustment knobs on the unit whatsoever. You just tell the unit to perform it's mesh leveling procedure, which it does directly from the nozzle tip, and afterward set the Z-offset from the center of the table with a slip of paper or the included card. That's it. Done.

I really didn't want to like this printer, but I really do. The only thing which would keep me from recommending it is the question of long-term reliability and accessibility of the specialized parts. But if they hold up over time, it's possibly the nicest printer I have seen for the $320 (with the current $80 coupon on Amazon). Especially when it would cost more in total to add those features to an Ender 3 V2, and still not have the same build quality. Out of the box, and replacement parts aside, I'd have been extremely happy having this as my first 3D printer.

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