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Author Topic: Monolith - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"  (Read 31046 times)

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yotsuya

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...more poorly formatted stuff I had to trim out. For the sake of ---fudgesicle---, man, learn to quote.

Your logic is pretty bad.

LCDs are perfectly acceptable replacements for CRTs, especially in custom builds. It doesn't affect gameplay.

MAME is perfectly acceptable to use as opposed to PCBs, especially in custom builds. It generally doesn't affect gameplay.

There has been plenty of actual anecdotal evidence, including a post in this thread right after yours, that shows angled joysticks are a bad design decision. It's been pointed out over time by people who have done it that it's something they regret, usually costing them time and money to fix later.

But yes, let's keep telling the OP to build what he wants, even though experience shows otherwise.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

vwalbridge

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #41 on: October 05, 2016, 11:44:11 am »
99% of people wouldn't notice the angled orientation

I'm happily in the 1% camp. :)


Case and point...I'm convinced this is partly why Zaxxon wasn't a more popular game. The Joystick wasn't angled but the screen was. Resulting in frustrating and non-intuitive game play.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 11:52:57 am by vwalbridge »
If you can read this, it means Photobucket's money grab ruined my signature photos.

yotsuya

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99% of people wouldn't notice the angled orientation

I'm happily in the 1% camp. :)
It's funny, the way companies like Williams, Atari , and Midway all designed their cabinets back in the day to cater to that 1%. I guess it's up to us MAME Builders to show those ---uvula--- engineers the right and fix their clearly grievous error, correct?
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

yotsuya

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99% of people wouldn't notice the angled orientation

I'm happily in the 1% camp. :)
It's funny, the way companies like Williams, Atari , and Midway all designed their cabinets back in the day to cater to that 1%. I guess it's up to us MAME Builders to show those ---uvula--- engineers the right and fix their clearly grievous error, correct?

Dude, you shouldn't have rotated your joystick on the Q*Bert, makes it impossible to play.
Enh, I'll just invite a bunch of 99%ers over,  they won't know the difference.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Laythe

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2016, 12:21:29 pm »
Make it as tall as it needs to be for the ergonomics to work out.
It's not like you need the space above it for anything.

Certainly, build whatever makes you happy.

If he goes for the full height version, I wanna see this running on it.

yotsuya

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* yotsuya high-fives Laythe
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2016, 06:06:39 pm »
Make it as tall as it needs to be for the ergonomics to work out.
It's not like you need the space above it for anything.

Certainly, build whatever makes you happy.

If he goes for the full height version, I wanna see this running on it.



lol well i could definitely include that on the side art. maybe even create a real one with LED's lol.
if you go to an arcade and see these modern cabinets they are tall. and sure its usual, but so is anything new. but really this isnt any taller than a bookcase or shelving unit. if the height does become an issue V2 might be a sit-down cab, switch the height issue for depth but really you'd be making everything lower and adding a chair. Screen unit wouldn't need to be so thick either. so many idas

« Last Edit: October 06, 2016, 11:40:27 pm by chito »

yotsuya

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Good luck with your build, chito.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2016, 12:29:33 am »
Time to talk about the illuminated T-moulding.
The aim is to create something like this



While i was doing my research I found this vid on youtube
Illuminated T-Molding by Daron Thomas

the vid is a demo of what he created. in the comments, he describes what he did
  • cut a half inch groove
  • stuck the leds in the groove
  • poured transparent epoxy resin
  • cut t-moulding groove
  • installed t-moulding



While this is easy enough for a single straight edge, I can't figure out how he did all the edges, especially since they are on the sides. The resin is very runny. I can only assume he taped up the edges with something, except for an opening where he would pour in the resin. then stand up the board so the opening is on top, and then pour in the resin.

I've never worked with resin before, does anyone have any ideas? if i can find out what material to use to cover up the side ill attempt the above this weekend (i hope). Ill also experiment with painting the inside of the groove silver to reflect more light

I've got all the parts i need to prototype it. (still need to find my plunge router or buy a new one).
  • 12V rgb led strip
  • router bit 10mm x 10mm (2/5 x 2/5)
  • 16mm (31/51 inch) MDF
  • 2 part clear epoxy resin
  • sample translucent t-moulding from t-moulding.com
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:26:51 am by chito »

jmike

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #49 on: October 07, 2016, 03:06:18 am »
Did you see this light-up t-molding on the t-molding.com website? Looks like regular t-molding but with a hollow groove so you can insert the LED strip. Should have no issues with any of the curves on your build. A bit expensive
but you'll avoid any headaches with the epoxy.

https://www.t-molding.com/t-molding-illuminated.html


 :cheers:

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2016, 03:16:08 am »
Yeah, Ive even got a sample of it. The problem with that one is that you get the led dots. this other method gives you an uninterrupted glow.
Really dont like the dot look.



Others have used EL wire and it can even run through the hollow t-moulding. The problem is the inverter, the can be loud/annoying and to really get the glow im after you would need EL-tape, which is alot more expensive especially with the inverter/inverters to run such long strips
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 09:28:38 am by chito »

Mike A

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2016, 08:47:56 am »
You are going to need a welding helmet to stand in front of that thing for any period of time. 8)

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2016, 09:24:02 am »
im pretty sure you can dim the leds. if not via the controller then via adding resistors.
it would be the same as watching a TV in a dark room. An open window during the day or the living room lights on at night would soften the light coming from the cab.

You can see these cabs at an arcade, they arent that bright

Mike A

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2016, 10:23:14 am »
I was referring mainly to the giant display. Most people don't sit 2 feet away from their large screen TV. You might want to try that out before you start cutting wood.

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2016, 10:42:20 am »
oh lol. sorry thought we were talking about the t-moulding
Yeah ive got 2 55 inch tvs, when your close and in the dark, yeah its bright! lol and it hard to tell where to look. but when its rotated to portrait, its equivalent to a 33inch TV... nice a comfy but still kinda bright, the other areas of the screen arent doing much. A person would be about 88cm which is about 2.9 feet lol. really wouldnt want to watch flashing anime on it maybe lol

« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 10:47:42 am by chito »

BadMouth

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2016, 10:48:38 am »
My rough rule of thumb is that the distance to your eyeballs should be at least as far away as the diagonal measurement of the 4:3 image being displayed.
That would just be the playfield, not the bezel art if it were being used.

One thing I've found with large screens is that shmups are more difficult if you have to move your head around to look at the enemies rather than being back far enough to take it all in.


lettuce

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2016, 07:42:09 pm »
Just don't angle player 3 & 4 joysticks.
The player can stand at an angle.  The buttons can be at an angle.
But the joysticks should be installed oriented the same way as P1&P2.
QFT.

Green = good.  Red = bad.




Scott

I cant agree with this!, P3 & P4 would be standing at an angle to the screen and not straight on like players 1 & 2 would be, and because of this the joysticks for P3 and P4 should be at the same angle as the player would be standing at!, so for me P4 is correct and P3 is incorrect as P3 the buttons arent even the same orientation as the joystick!!, after all this is how the 4 player Konami cabs are setup as!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 07:45:56 pm by lettuce »

yotsuya

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Just don't angle player 3 & 4 joysticks.
The player can stand at an angle.  The buttons can be at an angle.
But the joysticks should be installed oriented the same way as P1&P2.
QFT.

Green = good.  Red = bad.




Scott

I cant agree with this!, players 3 & 4 would be standing at an angle to the screen and not straight on like players 1 & 2 would be and because of this the joysticks for P3 and P4 should be at the same angle the player would be standing at!
It's been proven and tested, lettice. Stop passing on bad information. Your eyes and hands, not body orientation, is what determines how you move. Don't overthink it
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

lettuce

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It's been proven and tested, lettice. Stop passing on bad information. Your eyes and hands, not body orientation, is what determines how you move. Don't overthink it

Proven and tested by who??, the button orientation doesnt even match the joystick in you example.....its completely backwards! P3 and P4 wil be standing at a 45 degree angle to the screen so in your example they would have to push up and to the left for them to do up in the game as there not standing straight on to the screen. Konami 4P cabs are setup like P3 in your example!

The fact that you have place the buttons at a 45 degree angle and not the sticks shows that your idea doesn't hold any water, otherwise why not have the buttons in the same orientation as the stick for P1 and P2????
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 07:52:13 pm by lettuce »

DudeRegular

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That angled joystick deal gets posted everywhere and is in folks signatures for a reason. Come on guys. Build your own stuff all busted but quit encouraging new builds to be jacked up.

yotsuya

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It's been proven and tested, lettice. Stop passing on bad information. Your eyes and hands, not body orientation, is what determines how you move. Don't overthink it

Proven and tested by who??, the button orientation doesnt even match the joystick in you example.....its completely backwards! P3 and P4 wil be standing at a 45 degree angle to the screen so in your example they would have to push up and to the left for them to do up in the game as there not standing straight on to the screen. Konami 4P cabs are setup like P3 in your example!

Sigh. Lest you think I'm speaking out ---my bottom---... look at the time stamp on this post I MADE....

This weekend, when I went to Castles N' Coasters, I decided to try this out for myself. My natural inclination would be that yes, P3 and P4 should be angled to the screen in order for things to feel right. They have a few 4 player games there, and I checked - all the joysticks from the factory are installed straight up (no angling).

I put some credits in and I used the P3 controls (far left). I started off by playing straight-forward, directly in front of the machine. Obviously, I had no issues. I then, stepped to the side, playing as if I were the third player and someone were occupying the P1 area. Although my body was angled towards the screen, I had NO issues with the joystick. When I wanted to move up on screen, reflexively I pushed the joystick in the up direction relative to the screen, not "up" relative to me. It the same with the sides. I even moved so that I was standing on the side of the cabinet altogether (you should have seen the looks I got), but it made no difference. You just instinctively know where to go.

So there you go, tested out in an arcade on a real machine 5 days ago. You don't need to angle your sticks.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

yotsuya

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It's been proven and tested, lettice. Stop passing on bad information. Your eyes and hands, not body orientation, is what determines how you move. Don't overthink it

Proven and tested by who??, the button orientation doesnt even match the joystick in you example.....its completely backwards! P3 and P4 wil be standing at a 45 degree angle to the screen so in your example they would have to push up and to the left for them to do up in the game as there not standing straight on to the screen. Konami 4P cabs are setup like P3 in your example!

The fact that you have place the buttons at a 45 degree angle and not the sticks shows that your idea doesn't hold any water, otherwise why not have the buttons in the same orientation as the stick for P1 and P2????

Heh.... wait a minute... now that I read your post carefully, I think we're arguing for the SAME THING.

Edit: Or maybe not. I dunno. What the ---fudgesicle---?
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lettuce

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2016, 07:56:25 pm »
I think it just depends on the person, its the whole inverted and un-inverted of controls for flight sims, just because one way feels 'right' to you doesn't mean it feels the same for the next person!.

All i know is when i built my 4P cab many moons ago i try a mock up of both ways and the 45 degree angle way felt much more intuitive to me as the button layout was also at a 45 degree angle, and just felt 'right'
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 07:58:51 pm by lettuce »

yotsuya

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2016, 07:59:15 pm »
I think it just depends on the person, its the whole inverted and un-inverted of controls for flight sims, just because one way feels 'right' to you doesn't mean it feels the same for the next person!

Naaaaaaaa........... I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Plenty of people over the years have weighed in, regretting doing the angled joysticks (hint: look in this very thread). The fact that none of the actual arcade manufacturers themselves DIDN'T ANGLE THEIR FOUR PLAYER GAMES should also be evidence enough. But hey, go smoke a few bowls, put on some Black Sabbath, and build whatever you wanna build, right?
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

opt2not

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2016, 07:59:45 pm »
I cant agree with this!, P3 & P4 would be standing at an angle to the screen and not straight on like players 1 & 2 would be, and because of this the joysticks for P3 and P4 should be at the same angle as the player would be standing at!, so for me P4 is correct and P3 is incorrect as P3 the buttons arent even the same orientation as the joystick!!, after all this is how the 4 player Konami cabs are setup as!
Everything in this post is absolute ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.

Show me any 4-player cabinet that does this.

It's been proven over and over, but lets keep beating this down for people propagating misinformation:

Gauntlet:


Gauntlet converted to a Golden Axe 2:


Golden Axe 2:


Rampage:


TMNT 2:


Simpsons:


X-men 6-player:


Notice anything similar?  All the mounting screws for the joysticks are aligned in the same orientation. Not like P4 in the example above.
Even the X-men 6-player with the Dazzler and Cyclops positions in the most extreme angles are still aligned with Wolverine and Storm's positions.

Seriously, just stop with the angled BS. It's a noob mistake that seems to still be sticking around after all this time.

yotsuya

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2016, 08:00:35 pm »
Dammit, Opt, I was just doing the same thing!!!!!
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

opt2not

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2016, 08:00:39 pm »
Nice edit, lettuce.  ::)

Dammit, Opt, I was just doing the same thing!!!!!

great minds man... ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 08:03:57 pm by opt2not »

yotsuya

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2016, 08:06:18 pm »
great minds man... ;)

It's all that circle jerkin'.....

Look, if you want to angle them, angle them. But it's bad design.

Although, like PBJ is fond of pointing out...

"Not sweat on players 3 & 4, you'll never have more than one player on that thing."
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

BadMouth

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after all this is how the 4 player Konami cabs are setup as!

Awe man.  I'm too late to the party to shoot this down.  See Konami cab pics already posted (and take note of the joystick bolt pattern orientation).






yotsuya

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2016, 08:32:42 pm »

Awe man.  I'm too late to the party to shoot this down.  See Konami cab pics already posted (and take note of the joystick bolt pattern orientation).

Stop using facts and evidence. We should be encouraging people to build what they dig, bro. Build what they dig.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 08:35:32 pm by yotsuya »
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2016, 09:58:05 pm »
i think its really great to see how pasionate people get about their builds and cabients ingeneral. when i started researching for this build a few months back, it seem counter intuitive to me to orientate them to the screen. i mean when you're on a console and you're angled to screen, you dont often, if ever, have issues. but asking around and reading up on it, too me its pretty clear what the best practice is.

Laythe

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2016, 10:01:51 pm »
I'm starting to think that the best argument for a two player control panel isn't that it's smaller... isn't that it's cheaper... isn't that you'll almost never have three or four people interested in playing your cab at once...  isn't that it fits so neatly between the cabinet sides... isn't that it's more tasteful...

... those may all be true, but, no. 

The best argument for a two player control panel is that you only have a 15-20% chance of the "Angled P3/P4 joysticks" argument showing up in your build thread if you don't have P3/P4 joysticks.   :lol

(That said?  Don't angle your P3/P4 joysticks, it's wrong.  It's just a matter of opinion... and some people's opinion is wrong.)




The deep-routed LED illuminated T-molding idea is interesting.  I'd be loathe to pour epoxy resin in there as a diffuser though - someday, one of those LEDs is going to burn out, and if you can't get in there to replace it when it does, you'll be Sad.  Maybe loose-roll some cellophane diffuser material or something into that space.

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2016, 10:49:09 pm »
The deep-routed LED illuminated T-molding idea is interesting.  I'd be loathe to pour epoxy resin in there as a diffuser though - someday, one of those LEDs is going to burn out, and if you can't get in there to replace it when it does, you'll be Sad.  Maybe loose-roll some cellophane diffuser material or something into that space.

The lifetime of Leds is meant to be very long, losing brightness over time .
Quote
LEDs have a general life expectancy of 50 000 hrs. If you use your lights for 10 hours a day, this should be 13.7 yrs

that been said im in the process of talking to someone about creating a replaceable version using clear silicone rubber, which should make it easier to work with. If that was achieved it would be easier to replace.. if not and if just 1 led burns out that's going to suck lol might need to replace the whole panel. but hopefully, that wouldnt happen for a few years, at least 5 years. worse case i leave them off.

If you go to the sites of the companies that manufacture these cabinets, in their spare parts they dont list the t-moulding... im guessing they use a similar permanent method

rablack97

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2016, 10:49:56 pm »
Lit t-moulding.......... :whap

Don't you dare do it, i had the same fascination a year ago, the bros talked me out of it.

You need to think long term and maintenance man, unless you are commissioned for it, making a tron machine only makes sense on a TRON machine.  You don't want to kill the project with the circus clown act, plus as stated above, if those leds go out, you got a piece of half lit crap on your hands.

Go big but stay classy as the homies would say, you'll regret making your machine look like Fast N Furious.
   

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chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2016, 11:17:29 pm »
Lit t-moulding.......... :whap

Don't you dare do it, i had the same fascination a year ago, the bros talked me out of it.

You need to think long term and maintenance man, unless you are commissioned for it, making a tron machine only makes sense on a TRON machine.  You don't want to kill the project with the circus clown act, plus as stated above, if those leds go out, you got a piece of half lit crap on your hands.

Go big but stay classy as the homies would say, you'll regret making your machine look like Fast N Furious.

I think lights are a defining feature of arcades, its part of their personality. i don't think it's tacky at all, maybe on a car but not on an arcade. I want this cab to feel like your stepping into an arcade, which means lights. If they burn out they burn out and i replace them or find a way. necessities inspire innovation ;)

« Last Edit: October 07, 2016, 11:45:04 pm by chito »

Laythe

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2016, 11:54:59 pm »
The lifetime of Leds is meant to be very long, losing brightness over time .

LEDs have a general life expectancy of 50 000 hrs. If you use your lights for 10 hours a day, this should be 13.7 yrs

True, but do keep in mind you are on the wrong end of redundancy here.  As an example:

If a twin engine airplane will fly on one engine, the odds of an engine failure related crash are roughly halved versus a single engine airplane - both of them have to fail before it's an emergency.

If a twin engine airplane won't fly on one engine, the odds of an engine failure related crash are about doubled versus a single engine airplane - EITHER of them can fail and it's an emergency.

This setup is going to have, what, four hundred LEDs in it?  And you're going to notice and be irked at the dead spot if one of them burns out.

The average life of an LED in a properly cooled, properly regulated environment might be 50,000 hours, but that's the average.  Some of them are going to live a whole lot longer... and some of them are going to be the ones that pulled that average back down.

(That's my argument for trying to keep it user-serviceable, anyway.  If you don't think you'd be bugged by one dying, maybe it's no big deal.)

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2016, 12:22:19 am »
Eh, if some burn out you just unplug them and it looks like regular t molding.

chito

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2016, 12:24:17 am »
This setup is going to have, what, four hundred LEDs in it?  And you're going to notice and be irked at the dead spot if one of them burns out.

The average life of an LED in a properly cooled, properly regulated environment might be 50,000 hours, but that's the average.  Some of them are going to live a whole lot longer... and some of them are going to be the ones that pulled that average back down.

(That's my argument for trying to keep it user-serviceable, anyway.  If you don't think you'd be bugged by one dying, maybe it's no big deal.)

you make a good point, I have thought about this as well but i dont have an answer. But there has to be way. if the manufactured cabinets are doing it.
I may just settle to do it this way for now and see if i can discover/engineer something later. something more workable/usable... if anyone has ideas or can prototype that would be awesome.

I really think clear silicone rubber instead of the epoxy resin is the answer
maybe add exhaust ports? or increase the depth of the of the groove and allow a gap between the silicone rubber (not epoxy)

anyway ill muck around with this more for a version 2 and upgrade this build with new panels
whoever nails this will  make a huge impact on cabinet makers i think

Eh, if some burn out you just unplug them and it looks like regular t molding.
yeah there is that too lol. i was looking at regular white t-moulding for the teme of this cab
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 12:29:03 am by chito »

RetroGreg

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2016, 01:46:43 am »
I have to agree with Laythe on the leds. I'd go with the t molding you can insert the strip in or not do it at all. it just seems like one of those things that could go really wrong with the slot cutting, the filling, the lights, or the overall durability. I'd also see about trying to make it not quite as tall like everyone else said. I know it might seem like everyone is piling on you, but we're not. I bet you could make it a little shorter and still be satisfied with it.

I tried to incorporate too many things in my first build and it ended up being a tear down after a couple years. This forum over the past 10 years has really taught me that less is more. You probably don't need 4 players, you don't need a million games, and excess features can just complicate and end up making the cab worse if you're not careful.

That being said, I really do like the shape and the modernized style so I would like to see you finish this and post pics. It's modeled after the new style cabs and I think it's cool that you're going to make one.

rablack97

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Re: Pixel Playcade - 55inch vertical screen - project name "go for broke"
« Reply #79 on: October 08, 2016, 09:25:33 am »
At this point the man has a vision of what he wants regardless of the warnings.  It's barring on a project type of  ' I just wanna see if I can do it'.

Which is fine, the fellas are just giving you the answers to the test to avoid the 'what the hell was i thinking' look a year from now.

If your stuck on the idea of fast n furious, look up illumicade (no longer in business - hint hint)  it belonged to a guy on the klov forums, he figured out a way using chinese parts to do what you want.  I think he sold one batch and then disappeared.  You might try contacting him on the forum and he may either tell you what parts to buy or sell you a kit.  Shot in the dark but its a lead.

http://forums.arcade-museum.com/showthread.php?t=339197

   

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