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Author Topic: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV  (Read 1139 times)

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opt2not

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Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« on: September 27, 2016, 08:09:03 pm »

Extremely janky solution, but this could be a good start for someone to come up with a kit.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 11:57:42 pm by opt2not »

Locke141

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2016, 08:58:04 am »
OMG
:applaud:

Nice find.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 09:04:59 am by Locke141 »

pbj

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2016, 09:30:08 am »
This smells like BS, how the hell does the system know which target you're shooting if there's more than one on screen?

I'd believe it more if he showed us missing some shots. 

NES games have extremely forgiving hit boxes, as do House of the Dead and Virtua Cop.   

I want to believe... but.....


Locke141

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2016, 10:08:01 am »
This smells like BS, how the hell does the system know which target you're shooting if there's more than one on screen?

I'd believe it more if he showed us missing some shots. 

NES games have extremely forgiving hit boxes, as do House of the Dead and Virtua Cop.   

I want to believe... but.....

It could do it the same way same way as the original system's did. Each target was timed differently, IE targets on the left come before the ones on the right, Top before the bottom and the Arduino/Rpi knows the timing.

I wonder if this way of thinking could be used in retropie. It would be great to be able to use a wii mot to play duck hunt.

Titchgamer

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2016, 10:39:10 am »
But ultimately its still useing a sensor bar so it has the same limitations as the aim traks.

pbj

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2016, 10:45:24 am »
And he's dropping the "too busy at work" excuse for not giving any further details.


Howard_Casto

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2016, 02:36:04 pm »
On the NES, hit-boxes were cycled one frame at a time.  So it's the same principal as traditional light guns only much quicker as only 3 targets are scanned as opposed to 1 for each pixel. 

Here is the problem with this solution.....Like Titch said, it's not a lightgun anymore.  You are using the wiimote for aiming, and since the Wii VC supports every major console under the sun, you've got to think that it's just simpler to play them on the Wii or a Wii U in wii mode.  There's nothing wrong with a wiimote, but it isn't the same. 

RandyT

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2016, 01:19:48 pm »
Bleah.  So much effort to make real light guns work like poor substitutes.  It would be easier, and definitely better, for lightgun gaming aficionados to grab a decent tube TV (while you still can) and dedicate it to this purpose.

That's what I did, and nothing else compares.

As for it being "BS", it's not.  The extra circuitry simply monitors the split-off video signal, and when the trigger is pressed, his hardware knows this because it recognizes the change in video information (solid white screen, etc...)  As the hardware knows where the EB gun is located, it simply flashes the LED any time in which the position indicated by the Wiimote data, and the position of the EB (Electron Beam) gun are synced.  This is why he is able to increase the "hit zone".  He is simply modulating the LED over the larger range of difference between the actual EB gun position and the actual Wiimote position data.

lilshawn

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2016, 02:54:08 pm »
duck hunt is kind of a bad example to use in this case. it doesn't figure out positioning this way. in fact, it doesn't figure positioning at all. the pixel counting is a more modern technology.

in the duckhunt and atari days, light gun hits where done differently in a few frames in a go/no go type hit detection... When the trigger on the Zapper is pressed, the game causes the entire screen to become black for one frame. Then, on the next frame, all valid targets that are on screen are drawn all white as the rest of the screen remains black. The Zapper detects this change from low light to bright light, and determines if any of the targets are in the zapper's hit zone. If a target is hit, the game determines which one was hit based on the duration of the flash, as each target flashes for a different duration.

so...

- pull trigger
- draw screen black and check gun and see if it's dark (sanity check) if so, then the hit will be legit (not shining at a light bulb)

- draw a blcak frame with a white box for the hit box and check gun and see if it's seeing light. if so, the hit is good if not...miss.



I did the math one time to see if you could do the CRT type "scan" timing to work with an LCD or plasma display.

the problem is, you would need to send a new frame with an additional pixel drawn on in white... every frame and wait for the signal back. this would take 2,073,600 frames to completely draw the screen white one pixel per frame at a time on a 1080p FHD display.

60 frames a second.... 2,073,600 frames....do the math.... you want to wait that long to see if you hit a target?

a big buck hunter pro CRT game checks the gun position ~10 times when you pull the trigger. (It actually uses about 3 to 4 of them to narrow down the area. and discards the rest) at 60 frames per second... using 20 frames to check. (black to white frames) takes ~1/3rd or 0.3333 of a second. (give or take.)

Howard_Casto

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2016, 03:37:09 pm »
That isn't exactly how duck hunt is done.  A black screen isn't really required and many games don't do it.  What is required is a frame with a white box drawn around target 1, then another frame with a white box drawn around target 2, ect.  Since a frame is required for each target, games with too many targets (operation wolf on the nes) don't always register properly and a hit might kill the wrong target.

Also one of the issues with lcds is there isn't a whole lot of difference between a white pixel and any other color when it comes to the light output detected by a light sensor.  So a light sensor won't work and a color sensor is needed.  Those are a bit trickier to use. 

The only way I see a lightgun style detection on a lcd working would be a dongle that sits between the console/pc/whatever and the display.  This dongle keeps one frame in a buffer and whenever the trigger is pulled that frame is sent to the display multiple times with each pixel turning white one at a time simulating the crt effect.  Timing would be critical.  Then you have to figure out how to make a gun with a color sensor or some sensor that would do the job. 

IF and this is a big if, a person could make that work then the gun could be made universal and would work on virtually any console.  Typically all a lightgun sends to the console is when the trigger is pressed and when a hit is detected.  So four outputs, two hi and two low.... that would cover it 90% of the time. 

Nes games, ironically, would be much more difficult to get working due to the fact that screen position at a certain point in time doesn't really apply.

pbj

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2016, 03:59:12 pm »
Meh, I'm still in this BS camp on this one.  There are a lot of people out there that think light guns work on Xbox MAME because of one youtube video....


Titchgamer

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2016, 04:52:58 pm »
Meh, I'm still in this BS camp on this one.  There are a lot of people out there that think light guns work on Xbox MAME because of one youtube video....

Not sure about mame running on xbox but you can use lightguns with the xbox so I dont see why it wouldn't be possible?

pbj

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2016, 04:59:25 pm »
Don't go down that rabbit hole, bro.


Titchgamer

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Re: Lightgun work-around on a modern TV
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2016, 05:00:18 pm »
Oh I wont....

Ime a playstation guy ;)

  
 

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