Aimtrak 4 points of reference?

[AchillesPDX]

Got a question for people on here - hopefully I'm in the right place.

I don't currently have any Aimtraks but am hoping to find a satisfactory solution to light guns on my new cabinet and am concerned that the lack of 1:1 accuracy is going to drive me nuts.

Is there a technical reason that Aimtrak doesn't use 3 or 4 points of light for tracking instead of just two? It seems to me that any and all calibration issues could be completely resolved by having more than two points of light for reference. 4 points at the corners of the screen seems like it would completely alleviate any issues from moving closer to or further from the screen and would also allow for perfect "down the rails" aiming.

I've seen reference to projects in the past for Wii Remotes and GlovePIE that use two sensor bars to give perfect 1:1 aiming, but all the GlovePIE related forums have either disappeared or are inaccessible, taking all their information with them.

Any insight or reassurance that Aimtraks work just fine would be most appreciated.

Thanks!

[Titchgamer]

I have 2 on my cab and they work fine.

They have the usual problems faced by light guns ie they can loose calibration by moving forwards/backwards/sideways or changes in height also they dont like heavy sunlight or reflective surfaces (lots of glass around etc).

However unlike pretty much all the others I have tried they keep their calibration when not being used.
I can pull my aim trak out of its holster stand where I normally do and have pretty much spot on aim.

Also unlike most others they can also be calibrated on the fly so to speak if required.

Hope that helps.

[AchillesPDX]

They have the usual problems faced by light guns ie they can loose calibration by moving forwards/backwards/sideways or changes in height...

Thanks, this is kind of my point though. If they were tracking more than 2 points of IR light, all those issues would go away - seems odd that these were created for light gun use and yet the issue of moving around wasn't really taken into consideration.

[argonlefou]

I'm affraid only Andy has the answer...so unless he makes a detour in this thread we may never know

From a user point of view, Aimtrak is not a perfect solution (and I don't know if there is a perfect lightgun solution) but it's very solid, and compatible with a lot of systems/games

[Titchgamer]

I dont think it would help having more than 1 sensor bar tbh.
I may be wrong here and I have no hard proof but I believe the problem all of these guns suffer is basically a parallax error.

Also the aim traks tracking module is angled upward slightly (to see the top of the screen) so I dont think it would help to have one at the bottom.

As i said above they work fine unless you plan to duck and strafe when you are playing :p

Think i may do a video of the calibration etc of these at some point as it seems to come up allot.

[Titchgamer]

Ok I quickly knocked this up just to show the calibration situ of the aim traks.

[BadMouth]

Pointing it only at the center while moving around is kind of deceptive.  The issue shows itself progressively more as the cursor moves toward the edges, at least in my experience.

I also don't keep the gun perpendicular to the screen, I aim it.

I'm not saying they are a bad product.  They are the best solution for LCD screens short of an original Sega ir arcade setup.  I do feel obligated to keep people's expectations in check.  They do not feel like the old CRT guns my generation grew up with.  With those you could stand wherever you wanted, including a lot closer, and they were accurate to within a few pixels.  With the aimtrak I have to use on-screen cross hairs which ruins it for me.  It doesn't feel like I'm playing the games I played as a kid.  It feels like I'm playing a Wii port.

[Titchgamer]

I did move it around the screen??

Allthough I normally aim it I couldnt really do that and hold the camera behind it at the same time so I had to modify my usual hold!

As for the old guns never looseing calibration thats just not true, They suffered similar problems to the modern ones when it came to switching positions etc. Allthough yes you are right you could use them alot closer to the screen if you wished but I like to be far back, I could of had them calibrated closer if I wanted to.

And I can play games without cross hairs no problem now, Its just a case of moving into the correct place (or re-calibrating the gun) before starting.
much the same as in the video where I shuffled forward slightly to get my aim on to start with.

They really are the best light guns I have come accross that work with LCD's and god knows ive used lots of them! Including the top gun.

[Titchgamer]

Ah sorry just worked out what you meant, You mean moving closer to the edge would make it worse when not in orginal position right?

If so then yes it would be worse at the extremes of the screen, Like I said before I believe they suffer from a parallax effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallax


I didnt bother showing that on the video as even aiming centre screen shows the effect so I didnt bother trying to make it worse!

[AchillesPDX]

Ok I quickly knocked this up just to show the calibration situ of the aim traks.

Thanks for the video! It seems like they hold their calibration pretty well as long as you stand in the same spot - unfortunately that's also just highlighting their major flaw and something that could be fairly easily remedied with at least one other point of IR light to track. Parallax can be compensated for if you're able to create a 3D plane in space which can be achieved with 3 points, and would be even more stable with 4.

For the cost of the Aimtraks, I was expecting the perfect solution, but what you're showing with the Aimtraks doesn't seem much better than my current janky-as-hell Wii Remote-in-a-gun-shell + GlovePIE solution with one sensor bar. I was playing Lethal Enforcers last night without the crosshairs and as long as I marked my position on the floor with masking tape was able to do pretty well. I'll have to dig around on archive.org and see if I can find any of the GlovePIE scripts that were written to support two sensor bars and look at the math involved and see if I can implement it in my current setup.

I don't know where I'm going with all this, honestly - how do we get Andy to pop in here and comment?

Thanks again peeps.

[argonlefou]

In my opinion, even if - as I already said - they are far from perfect, they are still waaaaay more accurate than a regular Wiimote for what I could test.

Parallax is a thing, accuracy is another

[Titchgamer]

Well you can buy additional sensor bars, but if the guns/software will be able to use more than 1 at a time I really dont know!

I wont be trialing it though, I have a spare bar that came with my 2nd gun but I cant be arsed making another hole in my cab to test it :p

[AchillesPDX]

Well you can buy additional sensor bars, but if the guns/software will be able to use more than 1 at a time I really dont know!

I wont be trialing it though, I have a spare bar that came with my 2nd gun but I cant be arsed making another hole in my cab to test it :p

The software would need to be modified to support tracking 4 points - definitely don't put more holes in your cab!

[Titchgamer]

But they are defo better than a wii mote.

They look better, they track better and you cancalibrate them on the fly without having to exit out of whatever game you are in

[BadMouth]

I managed to get my hands on a pair of those third party Walther P99 replica wiimote controllers.
I'd get the blue screen of death every time I tried to pair the second one because the device IDs were identical or some nonsense.   

The best solution I ever personally owned was a pair of the Act Labs USB S-video ray guns paired with an old 32" CRT TV.
Of course both those things are hard to find now.  Steer clear of the older guns that connect via gameport.  Also steer clear of fancy old CRTs that had video processing like line doublers built in.  It didn't work for any of the positional (mounted) gun games, but behaved exactly as it should for the light gun games.  That was my experience.  There are other people who had all kinds of trouble getting them to work and hated them with a passion.  Of course you get the white flash which bothers some, but it's how the guns function.
I sold them because I was renting and didn't want to move CRT TVs around anymore.
Shortly thereafter, I bought the house I'd been renting and now regret getting rid of them. 

]

EDIT: maybe I do keep the gun perpendicular to the screen, lol

[Titchgamer]

The best light gun I ever had was called a Scorpion (i think) and it was for the PS1.
I played soooo much time crisis with that gun it was untrue and was pretty accurate and comfy to use.
Really regret selling that one as I never had a gun the worked the same again.

Ive always loved light gun games and I have had guns for every console I ever owned from the SNES through to the PS4 but none of the modern ones (that work via sensor bar for LCD) come close to the Aim Traks for reliability and accuracy.

As a foot not if you didnt think you held the gun perpendicular to the screen how the hell do you play gun games??? Lol

[BadMouth]

As a foot not if you didnt think you held the gun perpendicular to the screen how the hell do you play gun games??? Lol

I expected the gun to be at more of an angle when shooting far left or far right.
I guess when you're only shooting at a small box 6ft away, it stays pretty perpendicular.
 

[Titchgamer]

As a foot not if you didnt think you held the gun perpendicular to the screen how the hell do you play gun games??? Lol

I expected the gun to be at more of an angle when shooting far left or far right.
I guess when you're only shooting at a small box 6ft away, it stays pretty perpendicular.

Pretty much :p

It would be different if you were playing on a projector or something but I guess thats why Ultimarc makes the bigger sensor bars to.

Ive never played on a projector but It would be intresting I think, Bigger targets but also more movement

[Titchgamer]

As a foot not if you didnt think you held the gun perpendicular to the screen how the hell do you play gun games??? Lol

I expected the gun to be at more of an angle when shooting far left or far right.
I guess when you're only shooting at a small box 6ft away, it stays pretty perpendicular.

Indeed LOL

Though it would be different playing on a projector, Never done it though ide like to give it a shot.
Afterall you have bigger targets but also more space to cover with movements so different kind of challenge.

*note to self - must play time crisis on a projector*

Also just had a thought, Dont the top guns use multi IR for the sensors? I remember mine having 2 sensor bars 1 either side of the TV.
Though I found it lost calibration as soon as you pointed it away from the general direction of the sensor bars so never really got on with it.
Shame really as it was a good all in 1 gun otherwise with its recoil etc.

[AchillesPDX]

I don't suppose any of you live in the Portland, OR area and would let me come try out your guns? That would certainly help ease my concerns 

[Titchgamer]

Nope, but if u fancy a trip to the UK you can try mine lol

Have to get yaself a hotel though lol

[Titchgamer]

Yeah the Gcon 2's were good guns, never used the saturn guns though. Never had one.
The most fun one has to be the SNES scope

This is one of the scorpions I had for the PS1 really was excellent.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=scorpion+light+gun&rlz=1CDGOYI_enGB590GB591&hl=en-GB&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_-9eYhajOAhWkNJoKHbc2CywQ_AUICCgC&biw=375&bih=591#imgrc=Z9smAzM4NH5HnM%3A

[jmcginley]

...The best solution I ever personally owned was a pair of the Act Labs USB S-video ray guns paired with an old 32" CRT TV.
Of course both those things are hard to find now.  Steer clear of the older guns that connect via gameport...

I purchased the Act-Lab gun shown in the box in this picture (bought two of them actually). When I bought these I saw 1 of the ray gun kind, but went for these because there were 2. Bottom line... Are these going to suck?

[BadMouth]

...The best solution I ever personally owned was a pair of the Act Labs USB S-video ray guns paired with an old 32" CRT TV.
Of course both those things are hard to find now.  Steer clear of the older guns that connect via gameport...

I purchased the Act-Lab gun shown in the box in this picture (bought two of them actually). When I bought these I saw 1 of the ray gun kind, but went for these because there were 2. Bottom line... Are these going to suck?

The small silver pistols work the same, but aren't as comfortable in your hand because the corners are kind of sharp. They came with a crazy long trigger that was uncomfortable.  Someone has already chopped those down which you'd probably want to do anyway.

I haven't used one of the big red or blue guns.  They are probably more comfortable.

[jmcginley]

The small silver pistols work the same, but aren't as comfortable in your hand because the corners are kind of sharp. They came with a crazy long trigger that was uncomfortable.  Someone has already chopped those down which you'd probably want to do anyway.

I haven't used one of the big red or blue guns.  They are probably more comfortable.

Thanks, that's a relief. I can definitely cut the trigger down if need be. Has anyone placed the internals into a Happ light gun shell? Was thinking this would give it a more authentic arcade feel, but I don't really want to end up breaking the Act Lab gun in the process.