Why are CRT TVs good for MAME?

[yo1dog]

So I have doing a LOT of reading regarding MAME and video output... but I am still pretty lost.

I have a Sony Trinitron WEGA KV-32FS120 TV. I frequently see these mentioned as good TVs for classic consoles (what I am using it for now) and MAME. However, I am confused as to how this TV can produce native arcade resolutions.

I know the resolution is 480i, and that means it draws 480 lines. It is interlaced so it actually draws the first set of 240 lines (even lines) and then the other set of 240 lines (odd lines) after.

• What is the horizontal and vertical frequency of this TV?
• How can this TV display native arcade resolutions like 320x256, 320x224, 288x224, etc?
• What hardware and software is needed to output these resolutions from a PC? Can it be done with a newer nVidia card with DVI out?

Thanks,
 - Mike

[haynor666]

http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=41
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=47
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=46
http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=43

[yo1dog]

Uhhh.. that's a lot to read. Can't you just summarize it for me?


JK I read all the documentation. What a great resource. It needs to be finished, updated, and stickied!

It certainly answered a lot of my questions about required hardware and software. I have some new ones:

• Is there an updated list of ATI cards that are compatible with CRT EmuDriver/ATOM-15? Is the Radeon HD 4890 the newest supported model?
• We don't have SCART input on our TVs in USA, so what input should I use? Component, composite, or S-Video?

Unfortunately, the sections that would answer my questions about the CRT hardware are missing. So I am still not sure how my TV is able to produce native resolutions.

[jtslade]

Don't use a TV for Mame. That is the condensed version..... use an Arcade CRT and Atom15 with GroovyMame on a Radeon 4k series. Choose one that will do the lower dot clocks.

Result is arcade games that look identical to the real thing. Pretty much as close as you can get using a computer..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dawgz Rule]

That particular TV is fine for what you want to do.   In order to get it to display the native resolution you simply need to have your video output at 15khz.   You can do this with a number of ways.  I have done it with an ArcadeVGA as well as Soft15khz and an encoder.  There are others as well.   An arcade monitor is great if you want to pay the price for one.  Otherwise, you can use your TV at a fraction of the cost and the appearance is identical.    Check out this link for more info:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1288832.html#msg1288832

Regards

[yo1dog]

Don't use a TV for Mame. That is the condensed version ... use an Arcade CRT ...

I already own the TV I mentioned above, so I wanted to know how well it could be used for MAME. As I stated I frequently saw that model mentioned as being a good choice for MAME so I figured I would look into it. Buying an arcade CRT is defiantly still a possibility, but since I already have my TV I want to see what kid of performance I can get out of it.

... ArcadeVGA as well as Soft15khz and an encoder ...  Check out this link for more info: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,121491.msg1288832.html#msg1288832

Another great link. Thanks so much for sharing. I'd sticky that too

Some more questions:

• Should I use crt_emudriver 2.0 or stick with the latest stable release? It says it's still in beta.
• I was thinking about getting an ATI Radeon HD 4890 (newest supported model), but it only has S-Video and DVI. Would either of those work or does it have to be VGA? Is there any point in getting a performance GPU? I read once that MAME doesn't even use it. If that's true I guess I'll just get whatever cheap ATI Radeon HD 4xxx card with VGA I can find, as suggested.
• Any suggestions on transcoders? "Crescendo Systems TC1600 VGA to Component" was suggested but they don't seem to be made any more (also $179 USD!?).
• A question about interlacing: 480i draws two 480x180 halves (one with even rows, the other with odd rows) to create the full 480x360 picture, right? The second half is drawn right after the the first, fast enough that our eyes see it as one picture. Does this mean the TV has to refresh twice as fast when drawing a 480x360 (480i) image than it would if it were drawing just a 240x180 (240p) image? If not, when drawing a 240p image, what happens to the time that was used to draw the second half of a 480i image but is not needed?

[haynor666]

Should I use crt_emudriver 2.0 or stick with the latest stable release? It says it's still in beta but that was back in 2008.

Works great on XP x32 and 7 x64 so use it latest version.

I was thinking about getting an ATI Radeon HD 4890 (newest supported model), but it only has S-Video and DVI. Would either of those work or does it have to be VGA? Is there any point in getting a performance GPU? I read once that MAME doesn't even use it. If that's true I guess I'll just get whatever cheap ATI Radeon HD 4xxx card with VGA I can find, as suggested.

MAME does not care about GPU power unless You are using effects built in. Since You are going to get native resolutions without any effects You need cheap card. As mentioned use HD4350 or any cheap model from 5 or 6 serie. If there is only one DVI it will output analog signal but You need DVI-VGA connector (very cheap).

[Dawgz Rule]

Any suggestions on transcoders? "Crescendo Systems TC1600 VGA to Component" was suggested but they don't seem to be made any more (also $179 USD!?).

The key to the transcoder is that you want a converter without scaling.   Here is one that may be worth looking into:   https://www.audioauthority.com/product_details/9A60    I use a TC1600 but was considering this for another build.  Haven't actually tested it though. 

A question about interlacing: 480i draws two 480x180 halves (one with even rows, the other with odd rows) to create the full 480x360 picture, right? The second half is drawn right after the the first, fast enough that our eyes see it as one picture. Does this mean the TV has to refresh twice as fast when drawing a 480x360 (480i) image than it would if it were drawing just a 240x180 (240p) image? If not, when drawing a 240p image, what happens to the time that was used to draw the second half of a 480i image but is not needed?

Don't have an answer for you on this one but can assure you that it will display just fine. 

[yo1dog]

Unfortunately, the last server crash caused us to lose some posts. I'll try to recap what is missing.

A question about interlacing: 480i draws two 480x180 halves (one with even rows, the other with odd rows) to create the full 480x360 picture, right? The second half is drawn right after the the first, fast enough that our eyes see it as one picture. Does this mean the TV has to refresh twice as fast when drawing a 480x360 (480i) image than it would if it were drawing just a 240x180 (240p) image? If not, when drawing a 240p image, what happens to the time that was used to draw the second half of a 480i image but is not needed?

480i is 30fps and 240p is 60fps. This makes sense as 480i images require two draws (one for the even rows and one for the odd rows) to make a complete frame.


I chatted with Alex from AudioAuthority and he confirmed that the 9A60A should work for our purposes.


Alex sold me a refurbished 9A60A for $75. I also bought a new Radeon HD 4550 for $8 + free shipping.  Now I just have to wait for my transcoder to get here and then I can test it out.

[ZoOl007]

Hi, I'm interested in picking up a scart TV for this purpose - what size should I go for?

[yo1dog]

Arcade monitors vary in size depending on the cabinet. I like larger monitors so I would suggest something around 27/29"

[yo1dog]

Update:

Still waiting on my Radeon HD 4550 to get here. I accidentally sent it to the wrong address so now it's lost somewhere in the USPS vortex.

I picked up a Sony PVM (PVM20M2MDU/ST) for $50 off Craigslist. It was originally $150 but I talked them down to $50 because it had some audio problems and it had been listed for 3 weeks. It's only 19" so too small to use as an arcade monitor, but I wanted it anyway . Now I need VGA and SCART (for consoles) to BNC converters.

[ZoOl007]

  I just got myself a Sony Trinitron KV-29X2B I'm curious what the result will be... goes in my next cab
Still waiting for UMSA - Ultimate SCART Adapter to arrive

[Green Giant]

I wanna jump in here real quick.  I am refurbishing my old cab that has a 25" tube tv with RGB connections.  The computer that it ran on is dead, but I had an old ATI video card with DVI out that went to a DVI to RGB adapter.

So I know when I made it back in 06 that ATI was the only way to output to this tv with the adapter.  I just wasn't sure if that is still the case, I have tested on an nvidia card I have where I can customize the resolution to anything and everything, but I can't get it to work.

My questions are, is ATI the only option for this tv style?  And what resolutions are standard for a tube tv through CRT?

[yo1dog]

You can use Soft15k which works with nVidia cards.

I think 480i/240p is typical for SD (not HD) CRT TVs.

[lilshawn]

TL;DR - CRT hides a lot of graphical shortcomings that glaringly show up on LCD.

[Alejo I]

TL;DR - CRT hides a lot of graphical shortcomings that glaringly show up on LCD.

It's far more than that; old games were designed and tested using low definition CRT monitors, so graphics took advantage of scanlines, high contrast, pure blacks and the innate blurriness of the technology. Some games look fine on an LCD monitor, but the most visually detailed ones can be a bit of a mess. Here's a classic example:



The teeth, the eye and the finer colour grading look like ass on an LCD display.

Fighters like KoF also provide a good example of CRTs improving the image quality. Instead of a mess chunky pixels you have well defined abs, pecs and arms on the characters.

[nexusmtz]

Here's a classic example:
The teeth, the eye and the finer colour grading look like ass on an LCD display.

You should be fair and preface the ass evaluation with "By default..." or "Without any processing..."

Yes, Super Contra's attract mode looks pretty bad if you run the PCB directly to a 15k LCD or run it in MAME without adjustments, but since the lower picture is just the same scene with HLSL applied, you're kind of proving that an LCD can look pretty good - even on your example of a difficult scene.

Now, I think you could still show improvement going from that image to a picture of the game on a real CRT, but the difference won't be as striking.

[Alejo I]

Here's a classic example:
The teeth, the eye and the finer colour grading look like ass on an LCD display.

You should be fair and preface the ass evaluation with "By default..." or "Without any processing..."

Yes, Super Contra's attract mode looks pretty bad if you run the PCB directly to a 15k LCD or run it in MAME without adjustments, but since the lower picture is just the same scene with HLSL applied, you're kind of proving that an LCD can look pretty good - even on your example of a difficult scene.

Now, I think you could still show improvement going from that image to a picture of the game on a real CRT, but the difference won't be as striking.

I mean, I don't count with the average dude spending ungodly amounts of time tinkering with HLSL settings. LCDs can look good enough then, although I still have my issues with things such as the lack of deep blacks and motion artifacts, which is why I'm excited for OLED panels.

[Green Giant]

You can use Soft15k which works with nVidia cards.

I think 480i/240p is typical for SD (not HD) CRT TVs.

Gonna drop an update in here.  Never could get soft15kHz to work with my nvidia card.  Apparently wasn't compatible.

Then I did the smart thing and decided to figure out how the hell I used to make it work so well.  Found the old broken pc, tore out the old broken video card, turns out was an ATI radeon x700.

Checked ebay and they had similar models for $20 and then I remember I keep a box of old computer junk for just this purpose.  Turns out I had an ATI radeon x600 in a box that happened to be PCIe.  Fired it up and thankfully windows found a driver that works as I couldn't get the catalyst software to work on windows 7.

After some tweaking I plugged in the DVI to YPbPr dongle and cable.  Fired up the tv and it is working great.  At this point I retried soft15khz to see if the picture would look a little better.  It did recognize things this time around.  Installed 15khz setting and the user setting, whatever that is.  I can't tell if soft15khz actually did anything though.  I think the picture is looking better but the only issue I am seeing is some slight overscan.  Maybe this will be fixed when the ATI radeon x1800 card I picked up last night for $20 arrives. 

Wanted to give a heads up how I got a good picture on a tube tv with YPbPr component connections.  And maybe ask one more question.

Do any frontends allow you to set overscan/underscan?  Oh yeah, I can't tweak it in windows 7 since I have to use the base control panel resolution control.

[yo1dog]

Hope y'all don't mind me digging this thread up again. I am actually doing something with this again!

To recap I have a PC running crt_emudriver 2.0 beta 8 and an ATI Radeon HD 4550. I have two monitor setups: A Sony Trinitron WEGA KV-32FS120 with this VGA to Component Video Transcoder and a Sony PVM (PVM20M2MDU/ST) with a VGA to BNC adapter.

Everything looks great with the Sony PVM. I use Video Mode Maker and select "Sony PVM" for the monitor preset and it worked great. I switched over to my Sony Trinitron and I got a display, but the geometry was off. I figured I needed to regen my modelines. I tried both the "Generic 15.7 kHz" and "NTSC TV 60Hz/525" monitor presets but both produced modelines that were not good. Mostly lots of shaking and other scary looking things.

I figure I need to create a custom monitor specification, but I am having trouble finding the information I need. Any ideas? Here's what I need (from the crt_emudriver docs):

• HfreqMin-HfreqMax (Hz),
• VfreqMin-VfreqMax (Hz),
• HFrontPorch (�s),
• HSyncPulse (�s),
• HBackPorch (�s),
• VfrontPorch (ms),
• VSyncPulse (ms),
• VBackPorch (ms),
• HSyncPol {0|1},
• VSyncPol {0|1},
• ActiveLinesLimit number of lines,
• VirtualLinesLimit number of lines

[buttersoft]

You're looking at outdated information. Take a look at the monitor presets sticky at the top of this subforum. Essentially you're telling us you want a complete monitor range line, each of those variables you list is part of one. Only the last two have been superseded by four new values.

That aside, are *all* the modelines shaking/bad for both the NTSC and PAL presets? Do you ever get a mostly stable image, or one that's rolling vertically, or only coloured garbage? Have you tested the TV with another video source like a console?

[yo1dog]

I clicked through all the stickies but I was not able to find the thread/post you are referring to. I must be missing something. Can you give me a link?

The Trinitron displays my classic consoles fantastically: Atari, NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, etc. Actually, using the NTSC preset, most of the modellines look fine. Not sure what I was doing before. On some of them (like 640x480 interlaced) the image bounces up and down depending on what's being displayed. If it's mostly dark, no bounce at all. If it has some colors, it bounces occasionally. If it's mostly light, it bounces a lot. Some modelines bounce more drastically than others. On all of them the image is slightly too large and offset to the right.

Originally I started with the "Sony PVM" preset. Most of the modelines displayed fine with no bouncing (including 640x480i). I was using Arcade OSD to edit the modelines individually because they were all offset to the top right, but I realized there were a lot of modelines and the docs specifically say it's better to adjust your crt_range/monitor_specs line and regen the modelines.

[B2K24]

yo1dog, You should be working with a better card. The guide suggests 5XXX or better ---> http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=301
They're so cheap I suggest to just bump your version to a better one.

I myself have a Sony Trinitron KV-27FS100 and I found it far easier to just adjust geometry using the TV service mode. 

[yo1dog]

I don't remember why I was looking at the 4XXX series specifically originally. Looking at my posts, that may have been the newest series supported fully at the time (2016). Or it may have been just because I found that 4550 new for $8 shipped. Regardless, I don't think the card really matters as long as it is compatible with crt_emudriver.

I was thinking about getting an ATI Radeon HD 4890 (newest supported model) ... Is there any point in getting a performance GPU? I read once that MAME doesn't even use it. If that's true I guess I'll just get whatever cheap ATI Radeon HD 4xxx card with VGA I can find, as suggested.

MAME does not care about GPU power unless You are using effects built in. Since You are going to get native resolutions without any effects You need cheap card. As mentioned use HD4350 or any cheap model from 5 or 6 serie.

I know I can adjust the geometry on the TV, but not all the created modelines are useable. If I correctly configure Video Mode Maker I should be able to generate optimal modelines.

[buttersoft]

My bad, the monitor presets sticky is at the top of the GroovyMAME subforum on here.

And you probably went with a 4000-series card because that was the top end of the cards supported at the time.

[yo1dog]

Found the sticky in question, but still not sure how I am to find the correct values.

Given that the topic has changed from the original post, I have started a new thread in the Groovy MAME subforum:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=157000.0