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Author Topic: Super Off-Road Multi 360  (Read 7488 times)

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n3wt0n

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Super Off-Road Multi 360
« on: June 26, 2016, 02:09:54 pm »
Hi everyone.  I would like to build a 3 player racing cab to play games like super sprint, badlands, indy heat and super off-road. I have perused the main sites for arcade parts but haven't come across a replacement wheel for these applications. Are these wheels what you refer to as 360 wheels because they spin freely? Does anyone make a legit clone of these wheels or do I have to scour ebay/klov for replacements? Thanks for the help.

n3wt0n
« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:02:27 pm by n3wt0n »

Howard_Casto

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2016, 02:12:17 pm »
360 degree wheels are optical wheels, basically spinners with a steering wheel on the end.  Yes that is what you would want for this sort of application. 

You can buy the parts new, but they are quite expensive.  Ebay is your best bet. 

BadMouth

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2016, 02:24:30 pm »
Suzo Happ still sells 360 degree wheels on their site.IIRC they use the same wheel(hoop) as their 270 degree setups, which I don't think looks or feels right.

Ultimate sells a 6 inch wheel accessory for their spinner, but it won't be as durable as an original arcade wheel.

As said, most people use old original parts and interface them with an optipac,u-hid, or optiwiz.


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n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2016, 02:56:25 pm »
Great info. Thanks for the help. It is a few projects back so that gives me some time to watch for them.

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2016, 04:15:05 pm »
Yeah, since you're not in a rush, your best bet might be to hold out for a dead Off-road cab and go from there....
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2016, 07:54:40 pm »
Yeah, since you're not in a rush, your best bet might be to hold out for a dead Off-road cab and go from there....

Thanks Yotsuya.

vandale

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2016, 02:33:24 am »
hi, I have a pair of Atari badlands wheels and button panel for a small fee if you don't mind the shipping costs from New Zealand to Canada

cheers

n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2016, 08:03:56 am »
hi, I have a pair of Atari badlands wheels and button panel for a small fee if you don't mind the shipping costs from New Zealand to Canada

cheers

Vandale, I sent you a PM about the wheels.

BadMouth

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2016, 12:10:04 pm »
If you get the badlands wheels, get the Ultimarc interface for them.

Most 360 degree arcade wheels are "active low", but a few (including badlands IIRC) is "active high".
GroovyGameGear's OptiWiz only works with active low wheels.
Ultimarc's Opti-Pac or U-HID can be programmed to work with either.

baritonomarchetto

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2016, 12:49:59 am »
Arduino could be the cheapest (and effective) way to go.
There are plenty of examples out there on how to use rotary encoders and, believe me, a 1X resolution is enought for this application (easy sketch).

n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2016, 11:58:46 am »
Thanks for the Advice Badmouth. I am really new to the wheel part of the arcade so I had no idea there was a difference.

Thank you baritonomarchetto, I will keep that in mind when the time comes.

n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2016, 09:41:39 am »
Still in the planning stages, I am quickly realizing that there is a real good chance that I won't find a couple Atari wheels at a respectable price so I am starting to search out alternatives. Can someone tell me how wide an original wheel was? I can't seem to find that measurement anywhere on the net.

Thanks,
n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2016, 11:41:55 pm »
So this just happened...

 




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yotsuya

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2016, 11:49:26 pm »
There you go, my friend!!! :cheers:
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

BadMouth

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2016, 10:30:45 am »
I now have the theme music from that game stuck in my head, but I don't mind.
Lots of good memories.


n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2016, 07:50:49 am »
There you go, my friend!!! :cheers:

Thanks Yotsuya. I wasn't really ready to start this project but the opportunity to get the cab was hard to pass up since it was exactly what I was looking for.

I now have the theme music from that game stuck in my head, but I don't mind.
Lots of good memories.

I hear ya. I tossed quarters at this one all the time growing up. I know a lot of people like the older classics but this one fits the era where I put my hours in at the arcade. I am excited to get this project up and running.

n3wt0n

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2016, 08:31:18 am »
One of my first steps will be to check the status of all the steering wheels and pedals. I am assuming that the steering wheels work similar to a trackball but with only one axis. Is the testing routine the same? I have found a diagram that tells me the +5VDC power and ground for the optic boards but can anyone tell me what I am looking for as far as meter readings from pins 3 and 4?  According to the diagram, pins 2 and 4 are unused.

I am aware of the trick using your cell phone camera to see if the LED's are lit but I couldn't see it with my phone last time I tested a trackball.

Potentiometers as pedals - I tried to search the wiki but it seems to be unavailable. I have read up on how to clean and test the pots but what kind of interface is required to integrate these into my project?

Thanks for the help.

PL1

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 03:42:17 pm »
One of my first steps will be to check the status of all the steering wheels and pedals. I am assuming that the steering wheels work similar to a trackball but with only one axis. Is the testing routine the same? I have found a diagram that tells me the +5VDC power and ground for the optic boards but can anyone tell me what I am looking for as far as meter readings from pins 3 and 4?  According to the diagram, pins 2 and 4 are unused.
When you slowly turn the axis, the data lines should alternate between logic high (near 5v) and logic low. (near 0v)

This quadrature waveform shows what you would see on the data lines (A and B) when you slowly turn the axis clockwise.



Potentiometers as pedals - I tried to search the wiki but it seems to be unavailable. I have read up on how to clean and test the pots but what kind of interface is required to integrate these into my project?
For potentiometers, you need an analog encoder.

The three best options are U-HID, A-Pac, or KADESTICK.

U-HID series encoders like the Nano are hybrid keyboard/gamepad/optical/analog encoders.

A-Pac and KADESTICK are gamepad-style analog encoders that output analog stick and gamepad buttons.

IIRC, the Ultimarc products have adjustment sliders that allow you to change the range/sensitivity/offset of the potentiometer via software.

KADESTICK is less expensive but lacks the software adjustment sliders. (you use Windows to calibrate it)

Until Saint gets the wiki running again, here's an Internet Wayback Machine link to the Analog Encoder wiki page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20150625124501/http://newwiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?title=Analog_Encoders


Scott

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Re: close replacement wheel options
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2016, 04:42:57 pm »
I simple terms, you've got the IR LED emitting light all the time and across from it you have the sensor that lets power pass through when light hits it.

So you'll have power and ground to the LEDs with power also routed over to one side of the sensors.
Then you have one wire wire from each sensor that shows voltage only when light hits it.

So without the wheel in place (or with a slot lined up), you should get 5v coming off the sensor if both the sensor and IR LED are working correctly.

The picture PL1 posted is just what the pulses off each sensor look like when the wheel is spun.
The interface uses this info to determine which way and how fast the wheel is spinning.
(the sensors are staggered so that the pulses overlap differently if spun in the other direction)

I'd use an U-HID for the interface.  It's more work to set up, but is the only single device that will cover everything.


n3wt0n

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Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2016, 08:00:33 pm »
Thanks for the explanation Scott and BadMouth. I will get everything tested soon.  The cab came with 5 wheels, 2 different sized control panels and 2 foot pedal assemblies so hopefully I have at least one full set of working wheels and pedals when its all said and done.

It looks as if I will have to pony up for a U-hid if it will do everything I need in one piece. It sounds like being able to adjust things easily via the u-hid would be a major benefit so I will look into that a bit further. I would like to look at the Kade option but their domain name has expired for the store so I can't really compare.

Once I have the panels working I start on a monitor. I have kijiji finds for 27" CRT TV's and I might be able to shoehorn one of those in but it would be nice to put an actual correct 25" monitor into it.





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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2016, 10:09:18 pm »
I would like to look at the Kade option but their domain name has expired for the store so I can't really compare.
Not a problem.   ;D

The KADE store doesn't sell KADESTICK encoders because they are a "roll-your-own" Open Source spinoff of the KADE+ prototype that eventually morphed into the miniArcade+.

Check out my build thread here for everything you need to make/program your own with this atmega32u4 AVR from MattairTech. (Select "Atmel DFU" bootloader and 16 MHz crystal when ordering)

KADESTICK
Gamepad and analog firmwares -- details in this thread.
atmega32u4  -- Select "Atmel DFU" bootloader and 16 MHz crystal

MattairTech:
http://www.mattairtech.com/index.php/development-boards/atmega32u4-usb-development-board-arduino-compatible.html

The Yoke Interface tutorial post here on page 2 is a condensed, detailed walk-thru of the entire build process.


Scott

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2016, 12:23:24 am »
Okay Scott, you have piqued my interest. I am in this hobby to learn so perhaps the kadestick route is going to be my option. Thank you for the links and information.

I read your post and I think I understand how things were done but I have a couple questions regarding how this would work for my specific implementation.

Could I get this done with a single AVR that you linked to?
Would the single 5V on the AVR have enough juice (thinking amperage is the right word?) for the 3 wheels and the 3 pots in the pedals?
Would I have to edit the code that is being put onto the AVR for my specific use?

Jeremy

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2016, 03:02:05 am »
Could I get this done with a single AVR that you linked to?
Not with the currently avalable firmwares.

Looks like your curent setup has:

-   3 360 degree steering wheels (optical encoder) ==> 6 data lines, 5v, ground
(U-HID, Opti-Wiz, Opti-Pac, or maybe I-Pac)

-   3 Potentiometer pedals (analog encoder) ==> 3 analog inputs (wipers), 5v, ground
(U-HID, A-Pac, or KADESTICK)

- 14 (?) buttons assuming each player gets 4 buttons (coin, start, and two nitros)  plus admin buttons for Pause and Exit
(U-HID, A-Pac, I-Pac, or KADESTICK)

Here are 5 possible aproaches:

1.) Connect everything to a full-size U-HID. ($69)

2.) You could use a U-HID Nano ($35) for the steering wheels + Exit button (ESC) and a KADESTICK ($17) for the pedals and other buttons.  The 9-pin Nano would normally be short several 5v and ground pins due to a 30mA per pin limit but you can get 5v and ground for two of the wheels from KADESTICK.  ;D

3.) You could use an OptiWiz ($15) for the wheels and KADESTICK for the pedals and buttons.
(This is the least expensive option, but I think the third wheel would be on the "mouse scroll wheel" Z-axis.  IIRC there is a workaround by recompiling Mame with a minor code change.)

4.) You could use an OptiPac for the wheels and KADESTICK for the pedals and buttons.

5.) You could use a newer I-Pac (2015) for the buttons and maybe the steering wheels if it can handle 3 separate optical axes (check with Andy to find out if the trackball X-axis, Y-axis and spinner can be set to three separate axes) and KADESTICK for the pedals.

Would the single 5V on the AVR have enough juice (thinking amperage is the right word?) for the 3 wheels and the 3 pots in the pedals?
Yes.

The pots only draw 1 mA (5v/5kohms) each and the 6 IR LEDs in the optical circuits probably draw 20mA each so you're only looking at around 123mA.   ;D

Would I have to edit the code that is being put onto the AVR for my specific use?
The current firmwares are good for either 2 or 4 analog axes and a bunch of gamepad buttons.

As long as your front end and emulator(s) can use gamepad buttons everything will work OK.

The reason I suggested #2 above is that IIRC some front ends and emulators want the exit button to be the ESC key.


Scott

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2016, 07:32:46 am »
IIRC, the scroll wheel issue isn't that simple to resolve, but I haven't personally tried it.

Just be forewarned that you might go to all the trouble of changing and compiling MAME and in the end still have to go back and buy a second opti-wiz/opti-pac or whatever.


n3wt0n

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2016, 11:27:18 am »
Thank you for breaking it down like that for me Scott! You saved me a ton of time. Since the kade is still going to require a second device I think the best option for me would still be the U-hid.

IIRC, the scroll wheel issue isn't that simple to resolve, but I haven't personally tried it.

Just be forewarned that you might go to all the trouble of changing and compiling MAME and in the end still have to go back and buy a second opti-wiz/opti-pac or whatever.


Thanks for the warning, BadMouth. I will also stay away from the I-pac for this particular application.

baritonomarchetto

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2016, 11:41:00 am »
At the cost of being tedious, your best option is still arduino leonardo [emoji6]

n3wt0n

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2016, 01:52:49 pm »
At the cost of being tedious, your best option is still arduino leonardo [emoji6]

Thanks Baron, I was just going off what I had been given information for by Scott and BadMouth.  Is there somewhere I can see this done, read about the process, etc? I appreciate you throwing that option back in the ring and I would like to explore it a bit further.

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2016, 02:00:03 pm »
Sadly there are so much "almost" plug and play (but overpriced) options out there that noone wrote a lot about this, arcade oriented i mean.
I wrote an introduction to arduino in my mother language with an optical device example too (taito spinner): take a look (i hope a link to another non competitive site is ok for byoac admins ;))
Here is the link
http://arcademania.eu/viewtopic.php?t=386

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2016, 02:10:00 pm »
I just bought an arduino (sparkfun redboard) for the sake of learning. 
That guide is going to come in very handy despite me being in another language.   :cheers:




baritonomarchetto

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2016, 02:25:31 pm »
It's a lot of work to translate it, but for any questions, you know, i am here ;)

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2016, 02:42:21 pm »
IIRC, the scroll wheel issue isn't that simple to resolve, but I haven't personally tried it.
TopJimmyCooks did a one-line source code search/edit/recompile using code from u_rebelscum's patch.

Related threads in case anyone wants to try this:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,75693.0.html

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,117634.msg1246580.html#msg1246580


Scott

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2016, 03:11:07 pm »
IIRC, the scroll wheel issue isn't that simple to resolve, but I haven't personally tried it.
TopJimmyCooks did a one-line source code search/edit/recompile using code from u_rebelscum's patch.

Related threads in case anyone wants to try this:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,75693.0.html

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,117634.msg1246580.html#msg1246580


Scott


In that case he was using the z-axis for a single separate control (spinner on the z, and trackball using x/y).
I'd still be concerned that the z-axis might not behave exactly the same as the x and y axis.
On this machine you don't want one wheel to behave differently than the others (more or less sensitive).

It's just a concern.  I haven't tried it myself so I don't really know.
As far as I know, nobody else has tried it with one of these 3 wheel machines yet.
It would be nice to know for sure.











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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2016, 03:24:30 pm »
I'd still be concerned that the z-axis might not behave exactly the same as the x and y axis.
On this machine you don't want one wheel to behave differently than the others (more or less sensitive).
Windows uses a 1 to 1 ratio on X- and Y-axes (1 optical transition=1 step) and 4 to 1 ratio on Z-axis. (1 optical transition=4 steps)

IIRC the patch divides the Z-axis input by 4 so each optical transition = 1 step -- same as the X- and Y-axes.   ;D


Scott

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2016, 09:06:10 am »
So I haven't tested the wheels yet but I did get them pulled out of the CP and inspected. The results aren't good. Out of 5 wheels total I have two wheels with one type of gears on the back for the optic boards and two wheels with another type of gears on the back. The 5th wheel has its gears all smashed up. The real kick in the nuts here is that out of the five wheels I only have two optical boards and they are both different.  :badmood:

So I begin the search for optical boards or an alternative that I can build myself because I have heard these boards are kind of rare. All suggestions welcome at this point. So far I have thought about 3-D printing new gears that are all the same for each wheel and switching over to a 360 degree pot or something - I don't know, I am really stepping outside my scope of knowledge now and just thinking worst case scenario. Any suggestions that would get this done cleanly and not super expensive would be great. If you have any of the optical boards or the gear assemblies for the back of these wheels or know where I may be able to get them please let me know.

I am also missing the red panel off the smaller control panel (did you know they made two sizes of 3 player panels for these? I sure didn't). So I am looking for one of those. If anyone has one in their infinite collection of arcade pieces let me know.

Thanks.

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2016, 09:27:08 am »
If you have the wheels, there are examples on how to build your own optical encoder / rotary encoder.
Do not give up [emoji6]

n3wt0n

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2016, 02:14:34 pm »
Thanks for the advice. Oh, I am far from giving up. We (myself and the BYOAC board) will conquer whatever this cab throws at me.

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2016, 05:01:58 pm »
So I begin the search for optical boards or an alternative that I can build myself because I have heard these boards are kind of rare. All suggestions welcome at this point. So far I have thought about 3-D printing new gears that are all the same for each wheel and switching over to a 360 degree pot
Finding/printing matching gears sounds like a good idea, but forget the "360 degree pot".

Even though the gears on your two pairs of wheels don't match exactly, the gear ratio may still be close enough -- check exactly how many turns of the encoder wheel you get from exactly 1 turn of each steering wheel.

There is a reference on several Arcade Boneyard parts that were pulled from "Ivan Stewart / Happ Wheels" -- check for part numbers on your wheels to see if you can find related part numbers on the Suzo-Happ website.

Two possible approaches for the encoder wheel and optical board:

1. The cup-shaped encoder wheel and optical board might be similar to the Atari 4.5" track-ball encoder wheel and optical board.

2. Change the cup-shaped encoder wheel to a flat encoder wheel and make a mounting bracket for a Happ optical "red board"

The red boards are less expensive than the 4.5" track-ball optical boards and the flat encoder wheels are less likely to lose teeth if/when the wheel and board slip out of proper alignment.

If you chase down the sub-parts on this wheel it uses a red board and flat encoder wheel as parts of the 50-8404-00 "GEAR SET & BRKT F/360 WHEEL" assembly.

I am also missing the red panel off the smaller control panel (did you know they made two sizes of 3 player panels for these? I sure didn't).
Zork2 ran into that here in his restoration thread.


Scott

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2016, 07:56:53 pm »
Eh, you only really need one more board, so I'd probably try and work it out with what you have.

HOWEVER....
If you have the means to build a coupler to connect the steering wheel shaft to the encoder shaft, just about any optical encoder would work.
I didn't dig real deep, but this fairly cheap one came up:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400P-R-Rotary-Encoder-6mm-Incremental-Optical-Shaft-Working-Measurement-5-24V-US-/361402482978?hash=item5425444122:g:Rb4AAOSwN81WEjnG

As long as the count is a couple hundred or so and it works off 5v, it will be workable.
I'd avoid the ones where you have to mount a tiny disc on an existing shaft.
I have a couple of those I got cheap and haven't been able to work out a bracket for it.

I've tinkered around with a wide variety of encoders and an Opti-Wiz.
16 count per revolution is too low to register in most MAME games.
300, 500, 900 have all worked  (IIRC Ultimarc & GGG spinners are 1200 count, but I could be wrong). 
Sensitivity adjustments in MAME can tweak it to your liking.
I suppose if you go too high, you wouldn't be able to get it back down to match the original wheel 1:1, but it would probably still be useable.

« Last Edit: October 03, 2016, 07:58:47 pm by BadMouth »

SailorSat

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2016, 02:56:16 am »
1 Arduino Mega is enough - It shows up as 3 GamePads (for the Pedals) and 3 Mice (for the wheels)

I though I uploaded the firmware already on github - but I didn't - will upload that once I get home from work.
I do all that stuff even without a Joystick ;)
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n3wt0n

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Re: Super Off-Road Multi 360
« Reply #39 on: October 04, 2016, 06:27:01 am »
Eh, you only really need one more board, so I'd probably try and work it out with what you have.

HOWEVER....
If you have the means to build a coupler to connect the steering wheel shaft to the encoder shaft, just about any optical encoder would work.
I didn't dig real deep, but this fairly cheap one came up:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400P-R-Rotary-Encoder-6mm-Incremental-Optical-Shaft-Working-Measurement-5-24V-US-/361402482978?hash=item5425444122:g:Rb4AAOSwN81WEjnG

As long as the count is a couple hundred or so and it works off 5v, it will be workable.
I'd avoid the ones where you have to mount a tiny disc on an existing shaft.
I have a couple of those I got cheap and haven't been able to work out a bracket for it.

I've tinkered around with a wide variety of encoders and an Opti-Wiz.
16 count per revolution is too low to register in most MAME games.
300, 500, 900 have all worked  (IIRC Ultimarc & GGG spinners are 1200 count, but I could be wrong). 
Sensitivity adjustments in MAME can tweak it to your liking.
I suppose if you go too high, you wouldn't be able to get it back down to match the original wheel 1:1, but it would probably still be useable.



Wow, thanks for that link BadMouth.  :cheers: You mean I could ditch the little spinning wheel altogether? I didn't even know that was a viable option - that is a great idea. I guess all I would have to do is count the number of little openings on the original encoder wheel to see what the original count was right? As long as I aim for that and don't change the gear ratio between the wheel and the encoder things should "feel" relatively the way they are supposed to???


Two possible approaches for the encoder wheel and optical board...


Thanks again for all the info Scott. I did some more reading and realized the 360 degree pot was actually a horrible idea. I will check the number of rotations the gearing on each wheel has. Hopefully they are the same or close to the same. Are the red boards you refer to the same as the red boards on the Happ 3" trackball? If so, I like that idea. Those are likely going to be around (in production) for a long time and don't appear to be majorly expensive.

1 Arduino Mega is enough - It shows up as 3 GamePads (for the Pedals) and 3 Mice (for the wheels)

I though I uploaded the firmware already on github - but I didn't - will upload that once I get home from work.

That's really cool SailorSat. Let me know about that firmware. Is there a preferred vendor or board I should get? Again, out of my area of knowledge but willing to plug ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in and see where it goes. :D

  
 

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