Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news


  

Author Topic: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks  (Read 2245 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« on: June 21, 2016, 06:01:24 pm »
After trying and liking some chinese knock-off leaf sticks, I decided to give GGG's designs a run.

Dominux8: responsive switches, they're set pretty close to the actuator; so much that it's easy to go an extra spot or two in my game list when scrolling. The centering grommet is a little sluggish on return-to-center, which seems to contribute to this. The travel is two miles long; a mile long with the restrictor, about the same as a Competition; half a mile or less would be ideal. I also got the longer shaft, as suggested for 3/4'' panels, which is a comfortable height. Overall, built like a tank.

Leaf Pro: I needed to adjust the switches; then it played very well. The shaft is just long enough for a 3/4'' panel. The travel is more than I would like, but decent out of the box. Movement is easy and smooth - except for a 'bump' in one direction that developed at some point, where the shaft clunks back and forth during movement; turn the shaft, and the clunk rotates with it. It seems to be put (back) together correctly. I don't see any defects, so I don't know what I can do about it. Overall, the stick seems sturdy enough. Reminder that the base is smaller than standard, hence the mounting pattern is smaller; fortunately, small enough that I could tap a new set of holes without messing with the original ones.

Conclusion: in responsiveness, centering, and travel, the chinese knock-offs are easily better. They don't do 8-way that well, though, so one of the above is a better candidate for that.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 06:05:26 pm by Mr. Peabody »

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2016, 06:05:19 pm »
Thanks for the write-up.  Though, I'd like to hear a comparison to original leaf Wico's, since the Dominux8 is supposed to be an alternative to the Robotron style sticks. Comparing it to Competition stick isn't the best since they aren't really the same "type" of stick.

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2016, 06:03:45 pm »
There was little comparison in the review. Competition stick was used to give an idea of travel. On that note, I'm going to revise my request: a third of a mile travel would be ideal.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5993
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2016, 04:17:25 pm »
I'll start by stating that the reviews and direct communications sent to me by the other hundred or so users of these sticks is polar opposite to what has been written above.  More than one user has actually conveyed that they thought the Dominux was the best stick ever made for games like Robotron, and other classics, including the originals in the conclusion.  Comparing a rubber grommet centered stick to a spring-centered stick is less than ideal.  If the user has only had experience with the latter, which BTW, weren't the type used on any of the arcade classics, they will not be familiar with how a high-end grommet stick feels, and it may take some time with it to appreciate the differences.  The additional features of the Dominux, which allow for switch adjustment and shaft length alteration, also make it a completely different beast, and the manner in which it is configured and installed can make vast differences in how it feels and performs.  See below....

The centering grommet is a little sluggish on return-to-center, which seems to contribute to this. The travel is two miles long; a mile long with the restrictor, about the same as a Competition; half a mile or less would be ideal. I also got the longer shaft, as suggested for 3/4'' panels, which is a comfortable height. Overall, built like a tank.

I'm not really sure how to better convey the shaft length adjustability features, and the effects the length of the shaft has on throw and return to center, than I already have in the product description and in multiple posts on the subject.  There is no longer or shorter shaft for the Dominux sticks.  The physical shaft part is the same length for both configurations, and the option on the site simply tells us how to assemble the unit for your intended use, so you won't need to change anything when you open the box.  The length is always adjustable by the user, if he/she decides that the other configuration is preferable.

First, some engineering background:  The throw of any stick is dictated first and foremost by the distance between the part of the shaft being held, and the fulcrum point.  It is then limited, or not, by optional restriction, with that restriction amount being limited to something which is still able to reliably actuate the switches, without the throw of the shaft feeling too "truncated" to the user.

To reduce the length, and subsequently the throw, of the Dominux shaft, you simply need to exchange the position of the white plastic parts at the top and bottom of the assembly (or order it that way to begin with.)  For a 3/4" panel, this will likely require that a pocket be routed into the underside of the panel, to increase the exposed height of the shaft, just as would be necessary with the shorter shafted WICO joysticks, "asian" joysticks or the Leaf-Pro.  An option to further reduce the throw for the Dominux in the shorter configuration, would be to have ordered the reduced throw circular restrictor when the Dominux stick was purchased, which accurately approximates the feel of the original short WICO joystick, but which also brings with it the somewhat truncated feel of that stick.  This restrictor will also reduce the throw in the longer configuration, but a longer shaft will still equal a longer throw.

And finally, just because a joystick allows a user to push it beyond the point of switch closure, it is unnecessary, and often not beneficial to use it in this manner.  The switches actuate at the point to which they are adjusted, regardless of the physical restriction.  This is why avid Robotron players hold the Dominux in such high regard.   They can adjust the switches to provide very precise control without moving the shaft very much at all, all while having the longer shafts to provide the feel of the original sticks used with that title.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2016, 05:18:34 pm »
More than one user has actually conveyed that they thought the Dominux was the best stick ever made for games like Robotron, and other classics, including the originals in the conclusion.
Thanks Randy.  This is what I've been hearing from fellow Robotron enthusiasts. I've yet to pick them up yet for my cabinet, but they're definitely on my buy-list, just a bit lower on the priority right now since my Wico's are still feeling really good since the last time I serviced them.


Comparing a rubber grommet centered stick to a spring-centered stick is less than ideal.  I
Yeah this is what I was alluding to. They're aren't the same type of stick, mechanically, so I didn't really think the comparison was the right way to go.

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2016, 01:21:47 am »
Someone isn't comprehending what I wrote. And got a little defensive as well. I prefer the shortest travel possible, actuation and stop at about the same point, and I think a restrictor can handle that. The 8-way gate restrictor doesn't. The round might. I'll probably buy it to see.

Of course grommets are different than springs. One tends to be a little gummy, the other not. Whether one prefers either is something else.

Of note is the apparent defect in the Leaf Pro I have was ignored.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 01:24:36 am by Mr. Peabody »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5993
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2016, 02:31:43 am »
Someone isn't comprehending what I wrote. And got a little defensive as well. I prefer the shortest travel possible, actuation and stop at about the same point, and I think a restrictor can handle that. The 8-way gate restrictor doesn't. The round might. I'll probably buy it to see.

The thing that is of concern is that you are looking for a long shafted joystick for bottom mounting in 3/4" material, but also want a very short throw.  One negates the other.  If you want the shortest throw possible, you need to use the Dominux in the short configuration, modify the panel, and adjust the switches accordingly.  I didn't elaborate in the last post, the other effects the shorter configuration will have.  These are a firmer feel (i.e. less leverage on the shaft), and a quicker return to center, due to the mass of the shaft and balltop being closer to the fulcrum.

The 8-way gate cannot be any smaller, else it would no longer be a gated 8-way, rather a circle, which is why there is also the option of the "Short-Throw Circular" restrictor.  This may not have been available when you ordered back in January.

BTW, a joystick which actuates it's switches and stops at about the same point, would be in the opinion of most, a rather un-enjoyable joystick to use.  But if that is what you are after, you can achieve this with the Dominux, if properly set up, using the short-throw restrictor.

Quote
Of note is the apparent defect in the Leaf Pro I have was ignored.

The Leaf-Pro is an entry-level leaf joystick, where the high-quality switches account for roughly half of the price, and is not nearly in the class of the Dominux.   You indicated that a bump "developed", but without examining the stick, I can't say why, or what it is.   Were I to guess, based on your description and that the unit appears to have been shipped about 5 months ago, something might need a bit of lube.  But they won't be as smooth as gimbal+spring based sticks, which also wear and require periodic cleaning/maintenance.  The Dominux's rubber grommet centering is vastly superior to either type in this regard.

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2016, 06:44:53 pm »
I understand about shaft length and all that. I think I bought the gated 8 to try it out first. It boggles me why anyone would want actuation and then any measurable distance of throw after that......you'd crash a plane if the controls were like that.

The chinese knock-offs have a grommet - albeit a much harder one, so there's some natural restriction/resistance that discourages one from going farther after actuation. These sticks are the fastest playing of anything I've tried. I adjusted the switches on them, as well as the Leaf Pro, and the knock-offs are just 'actuate yesterday' quick, but rarely 'mis-fire'. I haven't adjusted the Dom8 switches because they seem correct for the stick; the shaft just needs to stop right then. I'm not doing any panel modding, though.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 06:48:02 pm by Mr. Peabody »

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5993
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2016, 12:38:25 pm »
I understand about shaft length and all that. I think I bought the gated 8 to try it out first. It boggles me why anyone would want actuation and then any measurable distance of throw after that......you'd crash a plane if the controls were like that.

Putting aside the fact that plane controls are analog, not having a reasonable amount of over travel will result in extremely narrow diagonal actuation zones with round restriction and actuators.  Other than that, it's a comfort thing.  A player can reliably actuate the switches, without banging into the restrictor on every move.  Most sticks will be tuned by default to have the point of switch actuation roughly centered between the neutral point and the point of contact with the restrictor.

Quote
I'm not doing any panel modding, though.

Then I'm afraid you won't get the most you can out of the sticks.  If the throw and feel you want is something which is only going to come about by using the shorter configuration, but you don't wish to do what is necessary to be able to use them in that configuration, then I'm not sure what I can do to help.

I'm starting to get the impression that your expectations are tainted a bit by previous use of sticks like the Suzo 500.  Some folks loved them, and others detested them.  A long shaft, strong centering spring and truncated throw made them good for shmups, but mediocre for most everything else.  They were a very niche design, which lead to the factory retiring the product.  The Dominux weren't designed to be like this, as it's really a very small portion of players who preferred those properties.  However, you can get pretty close, if you eventually decide to take the appropriate steps in getting there.

*edit*

For those who might wish to hear a different take on the Dominux8 Sticks, here is the most recent unsolicited review posted to our site.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 02:08:20 pm by RandyT »

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2016, 12:25:45 am »
(look sheepish) Yeah, the plane controls comment was a little daft. 'Bang' into the restrictor means you don't want one and shouldn't have one. For me it's integral to gameplay. It stops so I don't have to try to. With round restriction there is that limitation you described. I played Robotron with some Suzos, and got over a million. I love leafs, but I may switch to Suzo because they seem to have the most of everything I want.

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2016, 12:55:09 am »
Only 1 million? That's just a 35 min run depending on your skill level. I wonder what kind of wrist fatigue you'd get from a 10 mill run. I know those Suzo's are stiffer than most sticks, so I'd be willing to bet fatigue is a factor after a while of playing. Fatigue is definitely something to consider.
I remember when I first tried the Magstiks, after an hour of playing my wrists where wearing out. That's a pretty stiff stick also, so I wonder what kind of wear and tear you'd feel after longer play sessions.

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2016, 02:37:13 am »
It was less than a half-hour. I don't regularly play Robotron, so a million was decent. It was very easy to move, one reason I loved it. Maybe it was a different stick with the Euro shaft?...because it was that one-piece ball shaft that I've seen only on the Euro stick.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 02:40:07 am by Mr. Peabody »

opt2not

  • Trade Count: (+13)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4093
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2016, 05:22:34 pm »
Interesting. I may have to give the Suzo's another try. Though not for Robotron, but for other shooter-type games.

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2016, 01:42:14 pm »
I was correct. Actuation as early as possible, and physical movement stopping as soon as possible after, ensure the greatest overall response time. And is relative to an analogue control in when it triggers a value or new value. A 'loose' stick is a bad stick.

RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5993
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2016, 11:37:44 am »
I was correct. Actuation as early as possible, and physical movement stopping as soon as possible after, ensure the greatest overall response time. And is relative to an analogue control in when it triggers a value or new value. A 'loose' stick is a bad stick.

This is a very subjective topic, to which you assigning very absolute conclusions.  In particular, your statement "Actuation as early as possible, and physical movement stopping as soon as possible after" would make for a stick I would absolutely hate to use.  A stick which has the properties you describe could certainly be made.  But, such a small dead zone would result in unintended switch closures (high inaccuracy), and considering that most switches require no more than about 1/16 of an inch to open and close reliably, with leaf switches requiring a fraction of that, the throw would be ridiculously short.

One of the "top tier" Robotron players has indicated to me that he prefers to have the switches adjusted very tight, to provide this type of fast actuation.  But his preferred method of playing is with very light, fingertip control.  I could not play like that, and I'm sure many others couldn't either.  While your ideal for switch sensitivity is similar to his, you diverge on the throw.  He controls the throw with his style of play, and knocking into a dead stop would likely be something he would find detrimental, whereas you indicate that your style of playing requires this.

There are certainly "bad" sticks out there.  And you can even quantify the reasons why.  But when your preference diverges so greatly from the design of virtually every currently produced joystick on the market, it doesn't mean that the closer the sticks are to your personal preference, the less "bad" they are.  It just means that you have very specific requirements for your style of play, and those currently available sticks do not meet them.  One of the sticks which did come very close to your stated ideals, were the Atari 2600 joysticks.  They were also widely panned as being one of the worst joysticks ever made. But even those allowed for some very stiff overtravel, and still were responsible for untold numbers of repetitive stress injuries :)
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 11:39:45 am by RandyT »

pbj

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 6028
  • Obey.
    • The Chris Burke Band
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2016, 12:06:35 pm »
One of the "top tier" Robotron players has indicated to me that he prefers to have the switches adjusted very tight, to provide this type of fast actuation.

Cool "top tier" story, bro.


RandyT

  • Trade Count: (+14)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5993
  • Friends don't let friends hack keyboards.
    • GroovyGameGear.com
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2016, 12:58:55 pm »
Cool "top tier" story, bro.

Your stalking is starting to get creepy, Jim.  Seriously.

Mr. Peabody

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 66
  • I want to build my own arcade controls!
Re: Dominux8 and Leaf Pro joysticks
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2016, 09:00:31 pm »
I understand what you're saying, RandyT. Of course people have different techniques. I'm speaking from a perspective of least energy. I have tried different holding techniques. I tend to work mostly from the wrist, so using my fingers isn't much more effective. It might be with a super-short throw, immediate-stop, super-weak centering mechanism (as long as it centers well....how could that work?) stick.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2016, 09:03:37 pm by Mr. Peabody »

  
 

Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31