I have now tried Virtual Reality and it is amazing

[fallacy]

they posted this video, I also don't like multiplayer shooters but they convinced me. Looks like I will be playing this in 2 weeks.

[RandyT]

Ok, so I got the HOTAS set up with Squadrons last night on the cockpit/racing rig.  I may have been a bit hasty with my first impressions

Spent about 2 more hours with it in 120hz "pancake" mode, fiddling with the switch bindings to try to make all of the functions intuitive during play.  I'm mostly there, and I can say that a decent HOTAS setup will make all the difference with this game.  If you plan on playing this game with a gamepad, make new plans.  And also make sure you don't go crazy with a Warthog, which doesn't have the twistable stick.  That feature helps a lot in maneuvers. 

Squadrons is starting to grow on me.  It's not Elite Dangerous in the way of space sims, but if dogfighting is the highlight of that game for you, and you already have the HOTAS setup, you'll probably really like Squadrons.  Being able to fly along the surface of a massive Imperial Flagship, taking out gun turrets and other targets is also a thing in this game, and it's quite impressive.  I expect it to be even more so in VR. That will be the next thing added to the mix.  This machine only has a 1070 in it, so it might be a limiting factor.

[RandyT]

Update:  Squadrons is a mess in VR.  I think this is why the change of heart in my second post.  The first time around was in VR and it wasn't that pretty.  The second time was pancake mode in 120hz, which it seemed to honor fine.  But adding VR creates a host of issues.

It appears that something is seriously wrong in the code.  The VR seems to be locked at 60hz, and any attempts to go beyond that results in a stuttery, blurry mess.  It may have something to do with the latest nvidia drivers, which the game forces you to use.  One rather odd thing is WMR crashes if the desktop is anything other than 60hz, so it may be driver related.  Right now, it seems that the only way to get anything even approaching a smooth experience is to set the HMD to 60hz mode.  After that, it's really smooth and pretty amazing, at least compared to the stuttering in other modes..  But not many HMD's other than WMR even have the ability to be set to 60.  Regardless, there is still something wrong with the game.  At 90hz, even with the game on the lowest settings, I'm right up against the 11ms frame timing threshold, and that's just standing in the hanger with nothing really happening.

Changing any of the display settings in the game also seems to make SteamVR whack out, requiring a restart, and have had a couple of crashes which required a full reboot of the system.

I'm not sure how the console players are faring, but on the PC, this game is pretty bad in VR right now.  Hopefully it's something they can fix, but if not, it's awfully hard to recommend unless you don't mind being locked at 60hz, and your HMD can even be set in that mode.  I can imagine that there are people at EA with their hair on fire right now.

[SammyWI]

I'm having a lot of fun with Squadrons in VR.  Haven't had a ton of time to play but VR brings a huge level of immersion for me.  Has some graphical issues at times but not a lot and nothing to make me too upset.  Bought via Steam and it has always loaded fine for me on a original Vive on a RTX2070.  HOTAS is definitely the best control setup but I may try a Xbox controller for a few casual flatscreen sessions. Disclaimer: I am a huge Star Wars fanboy so this is pretty much my 10 year old selfs dream come true.

[RandyT]

The OG Vive is pretty low-res by today's standards with some rough SDE.  It's possible that the lack of resolution and gaps between pixels is masking the issue for you.  I've never felt poorly in VR, until my brain tried to cope with constantly doing barrel rolls while the backdrop would move two frames forward, throw in a couple of duplicates out of order and then repeat.

Once I got it smoothed out with a 60hz lock in the HMD, I was actually having a good time in MP mode.  My biggest complaint as far as gameplay goes is the mini-map.  I can't seem to figure out where enemies are.  I kind of wish they had something more 3D, like the one in ED, so I could know if they are above or below me. Then again, maybe there is something there that I haven't quite figured out yet.  Of the few hours I have in the game, only about 45 minutes is actually playing.  The rest was trying to find a workaround for the VR issues and configuring the HOTAS.

It would be pretty cool if there was a Flagship defense mode, where one team did nothing but run the gun turrets (I really don't know what all is in there, as I haven't had time to play it much yet.)  Lots of possibilities for game modes, if EA decided they wanted to go bigger with it.  I probably wouldn't even mind DLC to fund development, as long as it was just for cosmetics.  But as it is now, it has a lot going for it.  Very arcade-like gameplay, which suits me fine.

[SammyWI]

Yeah OG Vive is lower res but still has a lot of VR market share.  It could also be my crappy eyesight    I really haven't heard of others having the video issues you are.  I wonder if the WMR is getting less dev love than the more popular headsets.  Agree on the radar mini map.  From what I read most of it shows whats in front but along the edges is what's behind.  I miss the OG X-wing radar set up with separate ones for front and back.  I hope this game will allow modding because that could really open things up but it's EA so I won't hold my breath.

[RandyT]

Yeah, I finally figured out that the mini-map is sort of like a bubble-level.   Still doesn't help a lot, but it does drive home the importance of using the targeting system so the HUD shows the direction indicators.  I  think there's an option to automatically target someone who is attacking you as well.

Reddit, Steam and Youtube are awash with complaints about the framerate issue.  So far, people who claim they don't have the issue, aren't able to substantiate the claim with any sort of evidence, while there have been several who say they do have it, and have documented it through frame-by-frame video analysis.  I didn't really notice how bad it was, even in "pancake" mode, until I locked down the refresh to 60hz.  After that it became very smooth, which means it should have been glass-smooth at 120hz.  People are now coming to the conclusion that it was built for consoles, and ported to the PC, thus the 60hz focus.  I'm inclined to agree.  PSVR renders at 60hz and reprojects to 120hz, so it makes sense. I've yet to look into whether PSVR users are experiencing issues, but based on everything I've seen, they should be fine.

That said, it's plenty playable at 60hz.  I actually put some time in on the campaign, and it's very impressive in VR.  There was also an update dropped yesterday, that added a slider to let players get rid of the 10% deadzone for HOTAS controllers.  It makes quite a difference in control. 

If EA throws in a new map or game mode once in a while, and gets the framerate issue under control, I think it would be a must-buy for VR users.  Outside of those issues, it's a pretty polished experience that VR users don't get treated to all that often.

[SammyWI]

Console design dragging the PC version down would be entirely unsurprising. 

[SammyWI]

I do see all the VR complaints out there now.  Weird, that kind of thing would usually show up in my Youtube feed but I had to go searching for it this time.  Seems like people think it's actually locked at 60hz no matter what the PC reports.  At least I saw mention that the devs are working on this bug.  I'll have to mess with my VR settings to see if things can be improved.  But I don't see a way to change the Vive to anything other than 90hz.

[RandyT]

I think most are doing reprojection at 45hz to hit the 90.  Not sure if that happens automatically when reprojection is enabled, or how that works.

[fallacy]

My parents just bought a Quest 2 and are learning how to use it slowly. My mom likes “I expect you do die” and has almost beaten it. My sister is sure to buy one for her kids that always want to come over and play my VR, my brother will probably end up buying one just because. ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- just got real for VR.

Funny thing is I am not sure I will get a quest 2; I know I would never actually use it. the G2 is supposedly started shipping and I am looking forward to that.

[shponglefan]

I'd love to have standalone VR like the Quest 2, but sadly not with the Facebook requirement.

[fallacy]

They need to pull back on that ridicules ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, I thought they would have done so already. Remember when Google plus made you get an account to post on YouTube… this Facebook stuff is like 10 times worse because now you have actual games you paid for linked to an account that has nothing to do with it;  not to even mention privacy. It’s one thing if you want to build an online profile it is quite another thing to have information gathered on you linked with that profile in the background that you have no say in. Some new laws regarding privacy need to take effect, Facebook needs to face a class action lawsuit for this.

[RandyT]

Facebook needs to face a class action lawsuit for this.

I predict that when enough people are denied access to software they paid for, it will happen.  I doubt FB will find too many sympathetic judges or jurists when that time comes.

Personally, don't care.  Q2 is only somewhat interesting to me as a novelty.  It will never be able to take full advantage of the display, and the hardware has less power than current gen consoles.  IMHO, all it has going for it is wireless and cost, and maybe some ease-of-use for mass market types, but it comes with a whole bunch of negatives.

[fallacy]

The quest 2 is not really for people that have been in VR since the beginning. It works good and it’s an advanced piece of tec but ultimately it’s too much of a step back in the ways that matter when it comes to VR. A youtuber I watch said it best when he was reviewing the quest 2 stating the graphics still don’t even compare to a 970 graphics card running a game in 2016.

[francisbaud]

If I had a lot of money I would probably try VR headset. Seems like a pretty immersive experience according to OP.

[RandyT]

PSA:  SW:Squadrons is $29.95 on Steam right now.  Walking Dead: Saints and Sinners is on sale too for $31.99.  Til Nov. 2nd.

[fallacy]

If I had a lot of money I would probably try VR headset. Seems like a pretty immersive experience according to OP

That is the whole point of the Quest 2, they are charging only $300 taking a loss hoping people will make an impulse purchase in VR for the first time and getting into there Oculus storefront VR ecosystem. Judging on how my family is buying a VR headset for the first time it is working.

[fallacy]

Well it sounds like PSVR is basically dead. Sony basically admitted they cannot compete with Oculus so they will do nothing with VR for the next several years or maybe forever. No PSVR 2, PSVR is so gen 1 I am surprised anyone is still using it.

If it was not for Quest they could continue with a corded experience, new hand tracking and maybe there own inside out tracking but with the Quest at $300 for everything, no cord and already the best inside out tracking and motion controllers on the market they were just like we are not going to try to compete with that.

[pbj]

That’s too bad, looks like I’m sitting out on PS5/Xbox4 for awhile.

[RandyT]

Well it sounds like PSVR is basically dead.

That may be a bit strongly worded.  They are basically giving away the adapters to use the older cameras on the PS5, and PS4 titles overall will be getting a bump in quality on it.  The PS4 could never do supersampling, as it was underpowered.  The PS4 Pro offered a bump in image fidelity because it could and did.  The HMD can also run 90 and 120hz natively! So it's not hard to imagine PS5-specific PSVR titles running 200% or better supersampling at native 120hz!  I have seen this in action when connected to the PC, and it's pretty impressive with the RGB stripe AMOLED, despite it's resolution.

The Q2 has wireless and resolution going for it, but it's uncomfortable, laggy (on PCVR), low-contrast and can't come close to the graphics crunching power of the PS5.  What Sony really needs is a better tracking solution for HMD and controllers to get a few more years of life out of the PSVR HMD.  But even without it, seated controller-based experiences should be able to shine on the PS5.

*Edit:  Forgot to mention, this creates one hell of an incentive for MS to eat Sony's lunch by building WMR support into XBOX.  Seems more likely than ever now.

[fallacy]

Funny thing is we have no idea how Sony inside out tracking is even coming along. We know Microsoft mixed reality was the first and it was all right and is still going to be used for the G2; Oculus came out with there's right after and then they ended up perfecting it; HTC tried and failed. Sony could be sitting here without even that figured out yet.

Oculus still has dropped the ball with PC VR with the quest, which is why dedicated PC VR headsets like the G2 still can make a big splash but PSVR was never really like PC VR to begin with. PSVR is also a walled garden ecosystem spouting off more convenience and support for a relatively cheaper price. They also have some good exclusives which is the only thing I can still say for it.  If they are unable to get their next gen Tec to match the Oculus, not to mention the price, not to mention you first need a PS 5, not to mention it is still a bulky accessory with wires everywhere and limited freedom of movement. Like I said my parents, sister and brother bought a Quest 2, obviously they would have never bought anything that PlayStation came out with which is why Sony decided to cancel their VR even after they put that much resources into developing it.

[pbj]

My god, is it the 90s console wars again?  Your post sure feels like it.

It’s all just baby toys, dude.  Relax and enjoy it.

[Howard_Casto]

This is factually incorrect.... I tried putting my vr headset on a baby and it immediately fell off.  I can confirm that they are, in fact, gigantic man-child toys. 

[RandyT]

When it comes to true VR, both the PSVR and the Q2 are toys, each with their own strengths and weaknesses imparted by their intended use cases.  By virtue of the HDMI connection, the PSVR could be much better than it is currently, but Sony may be taking the view that it is not up to the standards of their new console, so they would rather make a clean break to start anew.  Inside out tracking has been done for a while and quite possibly the reason there aren't others doing it well is because of patent issues.  There are only so many ways to skin that cat and avoidance of those may be resulting in sub-standard implementations (Cosmos?)  Something like this could be standing in Sony's way, and of course, you would never hear about that.  Even so, a higher resolution, high-speed camera system would go a long way in improving what they already have.  They could even make a shell to go over the ball on the Move controllers with apertures (light pipes) in a pattern designed to be tracked by the cameras.

In an ideal world, Sony would be able to license the early WMR 2-camera tech, and stick a couple of cameras on their HMD. But they screwed up by not allowing any access to the USB going to the HMD to allow for expansion, and MS would be unlikely to license it to them as a competitor in the market.  But as far as consoles are concerned, it really is looking like the XBOX platform will be the best bet for users looking for future VR compatibility. 

[fallacy]

When it comes to true VR, both the PSVR and the Q2 are toys, each with their own strengths and weaknesses imparted by their intended use cases.  By virtue of the HDMI connection, the PSVR could be much better than it is currently, but Sony may be taking the view that it is not up to the standards of their new console, so they would rather make a clean break to start anew.  Inside out tracking has been done for a while and quite possibly the reason there aren't others doing it well is because of patent issues.  There are only so many ways to skin that cat and avoidance of those may be resulting in sub-standard implementations (Cosmos?)  Something like this could be standing in Sony's way, and of course, you would never hear about that. 

That's exactly what I am saying

Even so, a higher resolution, high-speed camera system would go a long way in improving what they already have.  They could even make a shell to go over the ball on the Move controllers with apertures (light pipes) in a pattern designed to be tracked by the cameras.

why do you think a camera overhaul is the solution? The problem with the PSVR is it only had one camera and you would lose tracking if you turned, asking the user to wrap a wire and camera around the room was asking too much. My point is inside out tracking was an absolute necessity for the PSVR 2 but we are not even sure Sony is capable of it.

Why would they want to keep dumbing money into supporting the PSVR 1, VR has already moved on from that years ago.

it really is looking like the XBOX platform will be the best bet for users looking for future VR compatibility.

I don't know why you think that but Xbox has publicly stated for years they have no interest in supporting VR, Nintendo has basically stated that as well because they did not want to be in a PSVR position. Personally I don't think we will see VR attached to any console now or in the future. Now if Sony wants to make a stand alone like the PS Vita and compete with the Quest using their exclusives to help them sell we could possibly see that at some point. From Microsoft we are more likely to see a standalone AR system at some point we are also going to see a stand alone AR system with Oculus at some point.

[RandyT]

Sony's current camera is low resolution, so accuracy suffers.  The two cameras are too close together, so accuracy and volume suffers.  I'm not saying they should do those things.  I'm saying they could.  The fact that they aren't really points to a new Sony HMD down the road, whether it be a standalone (ackkk!) or something for the PS5.  Then again, they could change their minds if PSVR users make a big enough stink and start to migrate away and/or if MS comes to their senses and supports WMR on the XBOX.

As for why it will be on consoles, I think the answer is that there is money on the table. Even in the PSVR's current state, the graphics still look noticeably better than the same game on the Q2. 



Check out the comparison starting at the 5 minute mark.  A cellphone just doesn't have the grunt of a console, and there are those who want a quality experience, without spending $1500 on a PC.  If console makers won't offer what gamers want, they will eventually lose those individuals to PC gaming and they will quite likely never return.

As for what MS says, you should consider what they are doing, not what they are saying.  Actions speak louder than words.  And the Nintendo comment kind of made me wonder what you were smoking.   Once they come out with a console at least on par with the power of a PS4, their comments on the subject might carry a little weight .

If all the consumer has to choose from going forward is spending $1500-2000 for PCVR, or paying $300-500 to be lab rat for data mining, then put a fork in it.  VR is done.  But I choose to believe otherwise

[pbj]

Star Wars down to $25 today for PS4, I bit.

 

[RandyT]

I hope folks held off on the WD:S&S steam purchase.  I didn't, but I also didn't play it yet, so.....

The HumbleBundle Fall VR Deal looks like an awesome deal.  I have half of them already, but $17 gets you:

A-Tech Cybernetic
Archangel: Hellfire - Fully Loaded
Killing Floor Incursion
Raw Data
I Expect You To Die
Creed: Rise to Glory
The Walking Dead: Saints & Sinners
Zero Caliber VR

https://www.humblebundle.com/games/fall-vr

[pbj]

Star Wars is great.  The accessibility options made this colorblind man smile.  Turned down the brightness a bit, too.

Things are a little blurry but meh.  This is the game I could only dream of when I was a kid.

 

[RandyT]

They finally took care of the frame rate issue on the PC version as well.  Anyone who is even remotely into SW, should definitely check it out. It really does feel like one of those amusement park experiences one would have had to pay a premium to play.  But it does require a pretty beefy GPU for VR, due to less than adequate optimization.  At 90hz, I'm still only able to get consistently smooth motion on the lowest settings with a 1070.  At 60hz, Ultra is no problem.

A HOTAS (if you can find one) really does add another dimension to the game. Hopefully the drought and inflated prices won't last for too long.

[fallacy]

Well looks my concerns I brought up earlier on the G2 and mixed reality in general regarding the software and tracking basically turning out to be that way. I don't know... luckily I think there is a way to get the lighthouses and the index controllers to work with the G2 so I will probably go that way. I wish there was a way to get the G2 cheaper without buying there motion controllers; I don't like anything about them, I don't like there tracking, I don't like the big ass ring on top making it hard to bring your hands together I don't like the battery life they use I don't like not having any capacitive touch for any kind of finger tracking.

[newmanfamilyvlogs]

This is factually incorrect.... I tried putting my vr headset on a baby and it immediately fell off.  I can confirm that they are, in fact, gigantic man-child toys.

And to double down on that confirmation, I tried this as well and the baby fell over too: https://photos.app.goo.gl/JrjHKoUAQjGSLG5b6

[RandyT]

Well looks my concerns I brought up earlier on the G2 and mixed reality in general regarding the software and tracking basically turning out to be that way. I don't know... luckily I think there is a way to get the lighthouses and the index controllers to work with the G2 so I will probably go that way. I wish there was a way to get the G2 cheaper without buying there motion controllers; I don't like anything about them, I don't like there tracking, I don't like the big ass ring on top making it hard to bring your hands together I don't like the battery life they use I don't like not having any capacitive touch for any kind of finger tracking.

Most Youtubers are a useless lot.  With only a few exceptions, they look at other (usually more successful) Youtubers to see if what they say generates views, and follow the same path, regardless if there is any real truth in it.  Expecting Lighthouse quality tracking from inside out is dopey to begin with, and when you couple that with individuals doing virtually no prior due-diligence and testing the unit in adverse environments (near open windows, green screens and/or bright lighting, etc...) who can't wait to tell people how bad it is, this is what you get.

Mine showed up a couple of days ago, and once I made sure Win10 was fully updated, it's an amazing device.  My torture test for tracking is Eleven Table Tennis and it worked perfectly.  Played it for close to an hour, and not once did the tracking mess up my play or do anything unexpected.  I then played HL:Alyx for a bit and I was floored.  Standing on the balcony in the first scene overlooking the dystopian cityscape was literally a night and day difference from the blurry mess I witnessed through the Odyssey with the same scene.  As for how this affects immersion, when the elevator door opens to the trooper aiming at you with his weapon, my hands were in the air long before he indicated I should put them there.  When the imagery is this good, you almost forget that you aren't really there, and while WMR can remind you that you aren't on rare occasion, it's no longer because you can see every pixel of the display or fuzzy graphics 10 feet in front of you.

I knew this was going to be good and put the order in for the G2 very early.  I ended up waiting 5 months to get it, and IMHO, it was very much worth it.  I would much rather have this than impeccable tracking and mush for a display.  But that's probably just me.

[fallacy]

What how did you get yours already!

a lot more people are down on the tracking saying when you hold the controllers together aiming down a sight it loses tracking, move it to far out of range it will lose tracking and other general hiccups. not really going to bother me since I have a solution. Just help confirms to me that Valve will come out with the Index 2 in 6 months using the same HMD with lighthouses. They wont say it is the same as the G2 they will say it is better than the G2 of course.

[fallacy]

did you get an email telling you it shipped?

[RandyT]

What how did you get yours already!

a lot more people are down on the tracking saying when you hold the controllers together aiming down a sight it loses tracking, move it to far out of range it will lose tracking and other general hiccups. not really going to bother me since I have a solution. Just help confirms to me that Valve will come out with the Index 2 in 6 months using the same HMD with lighthouses. They wont say it is the same as the G2 they will say it is better than the G2 of course.

June 12th pre-order and no, never heard a peep about it being shipped.  You'd think a large outfit like Connection would have a system which would work properly for that, but apparently not.  Had to keep an eye on the order page to know.

Occlusion is a problem for all inside out tracking.  It can even happen on the lighthouses in certain circumstances.  Some systems handle it better than others, but blocked from view is blocked from view.  Again, a lot of dopey users (and Youtubers) out there who have never fired a real firearm, think holding the controllers one directly in front of the other is how it's held.  It's not.  So a large part of this is simple user error. 

And obviously, if the controllers are held stationary for a couple of seconds out of the view of any of the cameras, it will lose track of them.  This doesn't occur if the controllers are kept in motion, and reacquisition is immediate once back in the cameras' view.  Bow and arrow games, like In Death, used to be a little sketchy with the old two-camera system, but it works great now.  Swinging swords, paddles, etc. is now good as well.  Eleven table tennis used to be ok, but not great, with the two-camera system, but now, the accuracy feels more like when I play using Lighthouse tracking and the Vive wands.

I always had the idea that if the tracking was poor, I would just get the Index controllers and use them, as I already have everything else to get them to work with the G2.  But the tracking on the G2 is fine, and I'm finding it hard to justify purchasing them now.  I feel that says something, because I don't feel like anything important is missing.  I understand folks who complain about the lack of capacitive button sensing, but I also understand that there are patents protecting this feature from being implemented, and it only has any real value to VRChat fans and it's purely for cosmetics.  The absence of this feature does not hamper gameplay in any way, unless a developer isn't doing their job properly.

[RandyT]

For anyone who might be interested, this is the fairest Reverb G2 review I have found based on my own personal experience with the unit.

[fallacy]

I just got this email today. I was hoping I would get mine by Nov 20 but reading between the lines it sounds like I wont get one until sometime in December (((((((((((((((((

[fallacy]

Literally a few hours after I posted that the doorbell rings, a black box with 16 pairs of puma socks I ordered a few weeks ago were on my porch. I had no idea what the box was, it is not even marked, I was like, is there something else I ordered from Amazon and why is it not in an Amazon box? Bizarre I never had a company not notify you of shipping and the fact they charged your card. Anyway glad it is here time for some testing.