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Author Topic: Gun talk - Sega Type-II IR Gun setup  (Read 14313 times)

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twistedsymphony

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Gun talk - Sega Type-II IR Gun setup
« on: January 06, 2016, 09:23:13 am »
I have been searching for one of those global vr usb gun boards to try my hand at a multi shooter and ran across this. I figured someone would like it.

I recently bought a complete Sega Type-II IR Gun setup (used in Jurassic Park, HOTD2 and every light gun game Sega has made since).

It uses 10 or 12 IR sensors around the monitor and the gun board is designed to work with a normal JST I/O board which means it's just simple analog stick signals (0-5V for x-pos and 0-5V for y-pos). I'm planning on using an A-PAC or something similar to have it mapped in the PC as an an analog joystick or mouse pointer. I haven't got the parts in yet by I'm hoping it will allow me to have legit arcade controls for light-gun use.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 03:58:47 pm by BadMouth »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2016, 01:14:29 pm »
Keep us in the loop.  It sounds like an interesting solution.

05SRT4

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2016, 01:37:02 pm »
*

twistedsymphony

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2016, 02:19:24 pm »
Keep us in the loop.  It sounds like an interesting solution.

I'll definitely start a thread about it once I have all the hardware together and start working out the details.

DudeRegular

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2016, 05:04:35 pm »
I have been searching for one of those global vr usb gun boards to try my hand at a multi shooter and ran across this. I figured someone would like it.

I recently bought a complete Sega Type-II IR Gun setup (used in Jurassic Park, HOTD2 and every light gun game Sega has made since).

It uses 10 or 12 IR sensors around the monitor and the gun board is designed to work with a normal JST I/O board which means it's just simple analog stick signals (0-5V for x-pos and 0-5V for y-pos). I'm planning on using an A-PAC or something similar to have it mapped in the PC as an an analog joystick or mouse pointer. I haven't got the parts in yet by I'm hoping it will allow me to have legit arcade controls for light-gun use.
Interested to see how that turns out for you. That may be another option for me. I have some happ 45s that are ready to go and a big showcase cab with a 34 in monitor that i wanted to use.

twistedsymphony

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2016, 09:43:15 am »
Interested to see how that turns out for you. That may be another option for me. I have some happ 45s that are ready to go and a big showcase cab with a 34 in monitor that i wanted to use.

I don't want to derail this thread any further but I've got my research so far cataloged here: http://arcade-projects.com/forums/index.php?thread/627-shooting-gallery-sega-type-ii-ir-on-a-108-front-projection-setup

BadMouth

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2016, 10:42:34 am »
For some reason adding guns to this subforum makes sense to me, but I have a feeling we would get a bunch of people posting about their real guns and cars.
I'd like to see all the gun info in one place, but I'm not sure it needs it's own subforum.
90% of the posts would probably be from people who can't get their aim-traks working because they haven't read the instructions.

twistedsymphony

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2016, 11:34:03 am »
For some reason adding guns to this subforum makes sense to me, but I have a feeling we would get a bunch of people posting about their real guns and cars.
I'd like to see all the gun info in one place, but I'm not sure it needs it's own subforum.
90% of the posts would probably be from people who can't get their aim-traks working because they haven't read the instructions.

I wouldn't mind seeing a "light gun" sub forum... there doesn't seem to be any good sub-forum for it. information is scattered all over the place. If you were to merge it with this forum it might make sense to make it a "specialized controls" forum to cover everything OTHER than digital joysticks and buttons. I don't know that I'd want to muddy the great driving forming we've got here with light gun, track ball, and other stuff though.

As for the Aim-Track posts... at least if there's a sub-forum for light-guns you could make a sticky for Aim-Trak troubleshooting and hopefully curb a lot of the new posts from popping up.


DudeRegular

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2016, 02:07:02 pm »
Concur. Make it so please.

Howard_Casto

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2016, 02:40:03 pm »
For some reason adding guns to this subforum makes sense to me, but I have a feeling we would get a bunch of people posting about their real guns and cars.
I'd like to see all the gun info in one place, but I'm not sure it needs it's own subforum.
90% of the posts would probably be from people who can't get their aim-traks working because they haven't read the instructions.

Saint if you are listening.....

Perhaps we need a "speciality controls/cabinets" forum group and a forum for each control that people have issues with.  I'd like to see a lightgun forum similar to this one.  Out of all my apps over the years, troubleshooter 2 gets the most email and questions because lightguns, both on the hardware and software side of things are just weird.  Especially now that we are in an era where most diy cabinets use lcds and thus most simple lightgun solutions don't work, it makes a lot of sense. 

BadMouth

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Re: Re: Immersion USB arcade PCB wiring pinout and drivers
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2016, 02:50:12 pm »
I put a POLL in the main forum asking if people want a GUN subforum.
Go vote and comment.
I'm surprised there aren't any comments.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=149002.0
(the poll doesn't show up in tapatalk)

EDIT:  I split these posts from the immersion thread to keep that thread more focused.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2016, 07:01:11 pm by BadMouth »

twistedsymphony

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2016, 12:13:33 am »
Interested to see how that turns out for you. That may be another option for me. I have some happ 45s that are ready to go and a big showcase cab with a 34 in monitor that i wanted to use.
I'm assuming you're planning a MAME setup? is that what the global vr usb gun board allows you to do? because I haven't heard of any solution that lets you use CRT based arcade guns on a PC.

I know a looked into a number of options for using legit arcade guns and came up with no real tangable options.  I eventually learned that even the CRT based Sega Gun games starting with Lost World used IR and that the light gun setup was essentially completely separate from the core game hardware and could potentially be used on PC.

It's worth noting that the light gun setup BEFORE the Model 3 hardware was also separate and used CRT based positioning. The Sega Model 2 Light Gun setup (Virtua Cop 1 and 2, House of the Dead 1, etc.) has a separate PCB that the video feeds through for sync. The gun position is then sent to the main game board through a normal serial interface. It might be possible feed that serial data into an arduino or similar to emulate an analog joystick or mouse pointer position.

I put a POLL in the main forum asking if people want a GUN subforum.
Go vote and comment.
I'm surprised there aren't any comments.
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=149002.0
(the poll doesn't show up in tapatalk)

EDIT:  I split these posts from the immersion thread to keep that thread more focused.

Thanks for the poll, and for the split ;)

Jollywest

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2016, 02:28:01 am »
I'm assuming you're planning a MAME setup? is that what the global vr usb gun board allows you to do?...

Sure is buddy  ;) > https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=138723.0

Also interested to see how this idea works out you.
Your idea seems like a much better IR solution than what's out there at the minute... good luck!
« Last Edit: January 09, 2016, 02:29:58 am by Jollywest »

DudeRegular

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2016, 11:13:25 am »
Jollywest's thread has been the model of what I am after. I plan to start with MAME and then maybe expand from there.

My other possible idea is trying out the gun board from raw thrills games. These actually pass video through vga in to jamma out. I was able to get a pc to show video on a standard res monitor but could not get any inputs to work. It is likely a driver deal. I was borrowing the board from a buddy though.

twistedsymphony

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2016, 09:22:39 pm »
I'm assuming you're planning a MAME setup? is that what the global vr usb gun board allows you to do?...

Sure is buddy  ;) > https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=138723.0

Also interested to see how this idea works out you.
Your idea seems like a much better IR solution than what's out there at the minute... good luck!


for the longest time I was planning on going CRT light-gun because I wasn't really a fan of IR solutions. I was planning on getting a HOTD2 mirror cab because That was easily one of my favorite light-gun games and a really excellent cab, compact but with a good sized monitor and the mirror adds some "distance" to keep it challenging. Then come to find out even Sega's CRT games from that era used IR so I started looking into that more seriously.  I'm sure Sega did it for ease of development. Much easier to just develop one set of hardware that works in all cab configurations. But in all my years of playing HOTD2 I never suspected that it was using IR, it always tracked perfectly and responded quickly.

I've still got a bunch of parts to collect before I can do any real testing but I've got all the difficult to source stuff already. I'm excited to see how it works but it will probably be a few weeks at least until I have something to test.

DudeRegular

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2016, 12:10:33 am »
Twisted where are you at? I have seen some busted gun games go dirt cheap at the winston auction before. I considered a jurassic park sit down. It went for 25 and actually worked mostly.  Just so big to grab for just parts.

twistedsymphony

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2016, 08:23:44 am »
I'm located in NH... arcade selection around here is very slim. nearly all of my machines were shipped from some place else.

the nearest auction is a 5 hour drive away in CT. I've never attended but there's a lot of really bad reviews about them not paying consignors, and having shill bidders driving up the price of the lots. Rumor is they're going to be shut down soon due to lawsuits.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2016, 08:25:50 am by twistedsymphony »

twistedsymphony

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2016, 05:27:36 pm »
since this is it's own thread now... I built all the harnesses needed and got all the gun board working with an original NAOMI unit



video of it here: https://www.instagram.com/p/BBf8TNyTGM-/?taken-by=twistedchu

As for adapting this to a PC for use with MAME and other emulators, I've confirmed that the gun sense board output does indeed go between 0V and 5V. On the Y-axis 0V is at the bottom and 5V at the top, but for X axis 0V is on the right and 5V is on the left. I'm wondering if this is because they originally designed the board for use in a mirror cab where left and right reversed. In any case once I have an analog I/O for the PC to test with we'll see if the X-Axis can be inverted .

I still haven't got around to ordering an A-PAC or uHID but I want to get this setup up and running on my projector before I work on adapting it to a PC.

Howard_Casto

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2016, 06:36:37 pm »
Yeah both x an y are inverted.... typically the top of the screen is 0. 

If it's sending a variable analog output then there shouldn't be any issues adapting it to the pc.  What about off-screen shooting (reload)?  I'm guessing the triggers just use the standard jamma harness correct?  How about force-feedback (if any)?

How much was the unit?  I'm just trying to decide if this is more economical than the wiimote solution.

Assuming they don't cost too much, the interface solution I would use personally would be a cheap 6 dollar Arduino clone.  There aren't a lot of I/O pins, just the triggers and x, y and an Arduino would allow for easy switching between dual joysticks and dual mice, allowing for maximum compatibility.  It could even handle some force-feedback or blinky lights....... basically an entire light gun cab could run on the one board. 

twistedsymphony

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2016, 11:15:44 pm »
Yeah both x an y are inverted.... typically the top of the screen is 0. 
top right is 00,00
bottom left is FF,FF

If it's sending a variable analog output then there shouldn't be any issues adapting it to the pc.  What about off-screen shooting (reload)?  I'm guessing the triggers just use the standard jamma harness correct?  How about force-feedback (if any)?
this system is too new for JAMMA, it's JVS based which is why it works this way since JVS uses separate boards for each function instead of integrating everything onto the game PCB.

the Gun board sends an "off-screen" signal that is tied to button 1 so if it loses track of the gun it sends position 00,00 and "pushes" button 1 for that player. The trigger is button 2. There's no provisions on Gun board for kick back but that's because it doesn't need to, those provisions are handled by the normal JVS I/O board, or in the case of a setup on a PC could be handled by something like a PAC drive.  The Gun board pretty much only serves to track the gun position, I'm honestly surprised they even bothered with passing the trigger button signal through it.

My guns don't have kick back but the mold has a slot for the solenoids, I'm honestly not sure which games offered it. House of the Dead 4 and other newer Sega games also featured an accelerometer and an additional button for an alternate fire mode. Again, none of these were routed through the Gun board, they went straight to the JVS I/O since the Gun board just does pointer tracking.

How much was the unit?  I'm just trying to decide if this is more economical than the wiimote solution.
This is NOT an economical solution, There are 10 IR emittor boards that go for $25-$35 a piece, the sensors in the guns tend to go for $90-$150 a piece and the Gun Sense board tends to go for $100-$150 if you can find a working one, and I don't think I've ever seen the Gun-protection board for sale. [There's a design flaw with the gun sensors where they tend to kill the gun sense board, the protect board fixes this, but it's also why the price of the parts is so high  (lots of boards getting killed by this over the years), would be pretty simple to build your own though, it's all just passive components.] Then you have all the harnesses and of course the gun shells and hoses. I bought all of my parts together in a lot for $250 and I've easily spent another $60 or so just on connectors and wire to build the harnesses to put it all together.

My goal was never a cheap solution, I wanted a solution that used actual arcade guns.

The cheapest method would be to pick up a Sega Jurassic Park game on the cheap. I've heard lots of stories of people picking them up for as low as $75-$150 range, which is a steal considering the e-bay prices for the gun electronics.


Assuming they don't cost too much, the interface solution I would use personally would be a cheap 6 dollar Arduino clone.  There aren't a lot of I/O pins, just the triggers and x, y and an Arduino would allow for easy switching between dual joysticks and dual mice, allowing for maximum compatibility.  It could even handle some force-feedback or blinky lights....... basically an entire light gun cab could run on the one board. 
So far it seems like my options are the U-HID, A-PAC and the Arduino based KADE setup. U-HID looks nice but not worth the $80 price tag, Feature wise the A-PAC isn't bad but I really really hate the screw terminals that Ultimarc insist on putting on everything they make... I'd rather have connectors for everything. The Kade setup is definitely the cheapest but it only supports up to 4 axis at the moment. That will get me by for now since that's technically all I'll need to get up and running with these guns, but if I do decide to add in accelerometers for support in certain games then I'll have to find another option.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2016, 11:31:16 pm »
 A Wiimote only has one bar... so the accuracy will not be anywhere near as good as a multi bar system.

 Aimtrac is pretty much the same way.

 Andy didnt want to add a second bar... as he stated that you would need to stand further away from the screen for the gun
sensor to see both LED bars....

 However... Im pretty positive that all Arcade guns use a wide-angle lens... allowing the gun to see both sets of IR boards without any issues.

 Someone popped a wide angle lens on their LCDTopguns.. and it worked flawlessly, and allowed them to stand about half of more distance closer to the display / bars  without any issues at all.

 

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2016, 11:40:10 pm »
Quote
but I really really hate the screw terminals that Ultimarc insist on putting on everything they make.

 This is a simple fix.   Cut connector cables (females) and screw them into the terminals.   Then plug the male ends into the females.



Howard_Casto

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2016, 12:39:34 am »
I experimented with the wiimote a few years back and with some additional hardware and custom software it does a pretty good job.  The problem has always been the pairing....  they just act funky on a standard Bluetooth connection.  Different lenses would most likely help as you are suggesting. 

The sensors.... are they just IR, or sonic or what?  That part of the setup could most likely be built for a few cents a board judging from the part count. 

I've never looked into the Jurassic World guns, but I guess I should now. 

Howard_Casto

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2016, 01:05:35 am »
Hey if someone can find it post the Jurassic Park manual here.  I'm having a hard time finding it due to the recently released 2015 game.  There's an I/O board on eBay for 30 bucks right now, but I don't have a clue what else a person would need. 

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2016, 04:44:05 am »
The Kade setup is definitely the cheapest but it only supports up to 4 axis at the moment. That will get me by for now since that's technically all I'll need to get up and running with these guns, but if I do decide to add in accelerometers for support in certain games then I'll have to find another option.
If you're referring to KADESTICK, then yes, the currently-available firmwares are 2- and 4-axis versions even though the ATmega32U4 board can handle up to 11 analog inputs.

If you want up to 8 analog axes, check out the maxArcade prototype in KADE Loader -- USB/HID Joystick 2 Player with Analog (Beta) firmware.

If you don't see the pull-down board option for maxArcade in Loader, click on "Advanced -- Beta Version -- Receive Beta Updates".

For info on ordering the correct AT90USB646 board and bootloader to "roll your own", see the KADE-compatible AVR vendors list.


Scott

twistedsymphony

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2016, 07:32:05 am »
Quote
but I really really hate the screw terminals that Ultimarc insist on putting on everything they make.

 This is a simple fix.   Cut connector cables (females) and screw them into the terminals.   Then plug the male ends into the females.
My gripes with screw terminals is 1, they're unreliable and tend to come lose overtime from vibration and 2, they're really messy, adding pigtails to them does not solve either one of these issues, I've looked into replacing them with pin headers but the spacing is so far apart it's just a total pain in the ass to do so.

Hey if someone can find it post the Jurassic Park manual here.  I'm having a hard time finding it due to the recently released 2015 game.  There's an I/O board on eBay for 30 bucks right now, but I don't have a clue what else a person would need. 
Here are all the manuals for all the games that I know of that use this system. They're are several revisions over time, but for the most part they're all compatible and all work the same way. The Gun protect board I mentioned I think was introduced around House of the Dead III.

From oldest to newest:
1997 - The Lost World:
http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade//Manual/formated/The_Lost_World_-_1997_-_Sega.pdf
1998 - The House of the Dead 2:
http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade//Manual/formated/House_of_the_Dead_2_-_1998_-_Sega.pdf
1999 - Brave Firefighters:
http://www.mamechannel.it/files_free/arcade_manuals_unpacked/braveff.pdf
2000 - Confidential Mission:
http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade//Manual/formated/Confidential_Mission_-_2000_-_Sega.pdf
2000 - Death Crimson OX (Japan Only)
-- No Manual --
2001 - Lupin the 3rd: The Shooting (Japan only)
--No Manual--
2002 - The Maze Of The Kings (missing schematic)
http://www.gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade//Manual/formated/The_Maze_of_the_Kings_-_2002_-_Sega.pdf
2003 - The House of the Dead III:
http://www.crazykong.com/manuals/HouseOfDead3.man.pdf
2003 - Virtua Cop 3:
http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade//Manual/formated/Virtua_Cop_3_-_2003_-_Sega.pdf
2004 - Ghost Squad:
http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Arcade//Manual/formated/Ghost_Squad_-_2004_-_Sega.pdf
2005 - House of the Dead 4:
https://archive.org/details/ArcadeGameManualHod4-manual
2007 - 2 Spicy:
http://d2q2ufly9wqg0k.cloudfront.net/sharedfiles/2%20Spicy%20Manual.pdf
2007 - Ghost Squad Evolution:
http://www.playkom.ru/upload/manuals/GHOST_SQUAD_evolushion.pdf
2008 - Primevil Hunt:
https://archive.org/details/primeivilhuntmanual
2008 - Rambo:
-- no manual --
2008 - The House of the Dead EX:
-- no manual --
2010 - Golden Gun:
http://www.bmigaming.com/Games/Manuals/sega/golden-gun-video-arcade-shooting-game-operators-manual-sega.pdf
2012 - Operation G.H.O.S.T.:
http://www.bmigaming.com/Games/Manuals/sega/operation-ghost-42-video-arcade-shooting-game-operators-manual-sega.pdf



The sensors.... are they just IR, or sonic or what?  That part of the setup could most likely be built for a few cents a board judging from the part count. 

I've never looked into the Jurassic World guns, but I guess I should now. 
Sensors are IR. The small boards around the display are IR LEDS but they blink at high speed in a pattern, I think this is so that the gun can potentially only see a few of them at a time and still work since it will know which sensors in the array they are. There are 2 LEDs a Resistor a cap and a couple of ICs on each one of these boards. The board in the gun has even less components but most of it is hidden under a glued plastic cap so I don't really know what's going on under there.

On my test setup with a 21" diagonal spacing around the monitor I could play with the gun as close as 23" before it started having signal problems.

If you're referring to KADESTICK, then yes, the currently-available firmwares are 2- and 4-axis versions even though the ATmega32U4 board can handle up to 11 analog inputs.

If you want up to 8 analog axes, check out the maxArcade prototype in KADE Loader -- USB/HID Joystick 2 Player with Analog (Beta) firmware.

If you don't see the pull-down board option for maxArcade in Loader, click on "Advanced -- Beta Version -- Receive Beta Updates".

For info on ordering the correct AT90USB646 board and bootloader to "roll your own", see the KADE-compatible AVR vendors list.


Scott

Thanks for that info! I'll check it out.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 10:38:56 am by twistedsymphony »

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2016, 10:38:46 am »
I meant the earlier Jurassic Park game as you said it could be bought for cheap, but I appreciate the links anyway.  ;)

The blink pattern thing is rather brilliant.  I had been thinking of a complicated equation to determine which leds the gun is seeing, but that makes a lot more sense.  In addition, that explains the strange led assembly and I now get what is going on.  The small chips on the led boards are most likely addressable LED chips daisy-chained together.  You know, like the ones used on those controllable led light strips you see on ebay.  Inside the gun it's most likely a simple ir camera and chip to calculate the position.  (Aka a wiimote)

All you need to do is turn 3 leds on at a time, enough to triangulate the position.  The math would be different for each pattern, but other than that it wouldn't be terribly hard to do.  The distance between each of the 3 leds tells you how close the gun is (scale multiplier) and the distance the leds are from the center of the screen gives the position.  The gun would never have to see the whole bezel, just one edge, which is how it can still track when you are so close to it.  You always know which leds it's pointed at as you only turn on 3 at a time, rapidly, in sequence.   

I'm not sure if you can get a camera module for a reasonable price, but if so this is probably buildable.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2016, 11:27:03 am »
Some more detailed information about the actual hardware used:

LED Boards... There are 10 of these (the lost world uses 12 though I believe). 5 across the top and 5 across the bottom. I think the 12 sensor setup used an addition sensor on the left and right sides.
The lost world used a version with two verical LEDs, then with HOTD2 they changed it to 2 horizonal LEDs with a little hood:


at some point later they changed again to a version that uses 4 LEDs and no hood:

From what I understand they're all intercompatible, you can have a mixed collection of these boards in the daisy-chain and it still works fine.

I do believe the order of the sensors in the chain matters though. It starts one in from the bottom right of the screen then goes around clock wise ending on the bottom right.


Sensor Board... this is littereally the only thing inside the gun aside from the trigger switch

there are a few different revisions of this, I've seen them with longer or shorter lenses depending on the gun casing they're going in, but from what I understand you can use any sensor with any Gun I/O revision, the pin out is the same and the Gun I/O doesn't care. It has a trigger signal wire, and a ground reference and the rest of the pins are for the sensor.

Gun I/O Board:

Many different revisions of this board, the early ones for Lost world need 12 sensors, but the rest only need 10. They all have the same connectors, a 2-pin 12V power connector, a connector for each gun, a connector for the LED board daisy-chain, and an 9-pin output connector for the analog X and Y on each gun as well as a trigger and "screen out" "buttons" as well as a ground reference.

The 3-pin CN1 connector doesn't seem to be used though  mine has a connector that jumps pins 1 and 2 so maybe it's some kind of external jumper setup.

Gun Protect Board:

This connects to the gun connectors on the Gun I/O and then the guns plug into this. They started using this around 2003 and I believe they sold these board separately for people who wanted to retrofit them to older games. Newer Games use a fancier "fuse board" that also includes fuses and protection circuits for the recoil solinoid.

this board is technically not required, it's recommended that you run one if you don't want your ish to break.

If you want any detailed pictures of the boards or IC numbers let me know.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2016, 06:18:08 pm »
hmm... a pic of the back of the gun sensor would be helpful.....

Keep in mind I'm kind of a dummy when it comes to IC and solid state stuff, but just at first glance.......

The gun I/O board seems to do the heavy lifting.  That largish chip on the board most likely takes the gun sensor data and converts it to something useful.  Most of the other chips look like timing junk... probably used for the led array. 

Those led lights.... there might be something off-the-shelf that would work considering how much leeway you said the board gives you in terms of revisions.  Ditto for the gun sensor and those are the two most costly parts.  That would reduce the cost dramatically as the main board seems to retail for 30-50 dollars on ebay..... it's the other stuff that's costly.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2016, 10:02:35 pm »
I took apart one of the guns and snapped some photos:

it's pretty empty in there.


Here is what it looks like under the lens:



Here's what the sensor looks like under the lens:

kind of hard to capture what it looked like in a photo but it was a purple plasticy sub-straight that looked like it had ink blotches on it, it kind of reminded me of a solar panel. I don't think it's a camera more like a light sensor.

the back side had 3 pots (or maybe adjustable caps?) with the lens on there are holes to get to the adjusters


It's also worth noting that the Gun I/O board I posted earlier is a very new revision. mine is an older NAOMI-era board with much larger through-hole chips:

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2016, 10:18:58 pm »
Huh......

You know I might be more confused then before.  Unless that sensor has some surface mount chips under that copper pad that sensor has a whole lot of nothing in there.  Three pots would indicate three analog values of some kind.... X Y and Z?  9 pins could be the analog pins for each, but I'm just guessing.

I think the key to understanding what exactly this system does is to find that sensor in a regular old electronic parts catalog.  It looks suspiciously like a light sensor with the IR filter tore off. 

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2016, 07:16:35 am »
I was thinking about this more last night and assuming the sensor is just a simple light sensor it's possible that it works on simple triangulation (or even biangulation since it's a flat surface) where it reads the intensity of each LED and uses that to calculate the pointer position. For that to work though the sensor would have to be sensitive to the light distance parallel to the sensing surface as opposed to perpendicular. Then I thought, I'm not even sure that's physically possible (then again I don't know much about light sensors).

Some searching I came across a type of IR sensor called a "PIR" sensor which is used in motion detection. these seem to have two sensing surfaces such that it can detect basic movement of light from one region to the next (hence motion detection). Adafruit has a good explanation: https://learn.adafruit.com/pir-passive-infrared-proximity-motion-sensor/how-pirs-work

that coupled with the LED array flashing in in sequence could very well be used to not only tri-angulate the position of the gun but also determine the angle at which the gun is pointed.

----------
EDIT: I forgot to mention the reason the sensor board has 9 pins is because 2 of them go back out to the trigger. so 7 come in from the Gun I/O then it has 2 that go back out to the trigger. I don't think the sensor needs the trigger information, I think they just did this for ease of wiring. Technically the sensor only uses 6 wires, at least one of which is a ground reference that is shared with the trigger.

I also don't believe there is any IC under the covered part of the board, I didn't want to pull it off and risk damaging anything but it looked like only thing under there were a bunch of surface mount resistors/diodes/caps (unsure since I only saw them from the side)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2016, 08:24:44 am by twistedsymphony »

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2016, 12:55:59 pm »
Heh.... we must have been searching the same sites.  The PIR sensor was my guess as well.  The thing is, they aren't terribly accurate, especially when detecting a x and y value.  I skimmed some patents and there are variants of these that have multiple sensors setup in a grid, but they don't resemble the part on the guns in the least.

Yeah I saw that resistor cutting off two of the pins last night. 


I'll search Arduino forums later this evening to see if I can find one that shows a PIR sensor X/Y detection example. 

This system might not be as hard to clone as it seems.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2016, 01:27:23 pm »
As far as Ive recall, a camera phone can see LEDs lit up. 

 The glass on the sensor appears to be a filter coating.

 It might be a camera, that is filtered to see pretty much only the IR spectrum.

 It might be that the LEDs are used to draw a constant border line.   

 And it may be, that something different happens to the LEDs,  when the trigger is pulled.

 It might be a dual sensor tech inside there..  with a camera, and a motion sensor.

 There is more than likely a Patent that explains the tech in detail.


 Other than that, use your phone to record what the leds do when the game is actually playing in-game.
Say "fire" as you pull the trigger... and see if the leds do anything different at that exact moment.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2016, 02:23:47 pm »
If you follow the traces on the board the trigger wire never touches any of the rest of the circuitry, it just comes in one pin and goes out another pin to the trigger switch.

If they didn't wire it this way they would have either had to run a separate ground wire up for the switch or they would have had to have an extra ground wire coming off the sensor PCB anyway. which would have made the wiring in the gun a lot more messy.

I still think the sensor is way too thin to be a camera, every PCB mounted camera I've seen including those in modern cell phones is at least 3 or 4 times as deep as this thing is, and this particular board has been around since 1997. There's no way Sega perfected high-speed camera tech 20 years before everyone else and in such a small package that no one else has managed to make one thinner yet.

Good idea on the patent though.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2016, 02:31:26 pm »
BTW.... has happcontrols lost it's mind?  I looked up the gun sensor on their site... it was 250 dollars!  WTF?  They do realize that you can buy many of the compatible games for that price right?

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2016, 02:47:56 pm »
Happ lost their mind a long time ago... most of their prices are ridiculous AND the same time they decided to start cold-calling collectors to drum up business (I've received several calls because I ordered from them before) they also instituted a $100 minimum order policy...  :lol you can't do both... you ether put in a high min order to sell only to businesses that need you, or you sell in small lots to increase your customer base.

I need to buy new nuts and bolts to hold my gun halves together, Happ carries the official parts for $7 a set, which I'd be willing to pay, but I can't buy them because there's no way I'm interested in placing a $100 order with them.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2016, 03:25:07 pm »
Yeah I get calls from them every once in a while, which I find odd considering the only thing I've ever bought from them is a bezel and that was in 2000.  They offered me 10% off, which would be nice if they didn't have a 1000% markup on their stuff.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2016, 10:51:30 pm »
attempting to figure out what we CAN identify I took a look at one of the LED boards:

Aside from the resistors and caps there are 3 ICs
The largest is an 8-pin chip with "7W74F" and "6W" printed on it.
this identifies as a D-type Flip-Flop: http://www.alldatasheet.com/view.jsp?Searchword=7W74F

The next largest chip has 3 small pins on one side and 1 fat pin on the other it has "TQ" and "6X" printed on it, on the older style LED board this chip has "TQ" and "7Z". the label is too vague to find an exact match but it looks like a typical transistor to me, especially considering the fat pin is tied directly to the LEDs. if you look at the picture I posted earlier of the newer 4 LED board it has 2 of these, probably because it's driving twice as many LEDs (on the 2LED boards they're wired in series surprisingly) The other end of the LEDs are tied to the large through-hole resistor, which is tied to ground.

The smallest chip looks like it would be a 6-pin but with the middle pin removed on one side. the chip is simply labeled "E2" and it's barely larger than the surface mount resistors... I'm not really sure what this is. and the label is way too vague.

The LEDs themselves are a bit weird too. There's a white ceramic cylinder with a gold prong in the middle and another gold prong coming up from the side (like a spark plug) and then it looks like the "lens" is created with a crystal clear epoxy that also covers the cylindrical base. it's a weird design that I haven't seen before... maybe they're highly directional?

the older style LED board with them vertically mounted they're all sticking out slightly from the board and angled toward the center of the screen slightly, and then there's a grey silicon glue holding them in position, the newer style board with the two horizontally mounted  LEDs have the LEDs mounted flush against the PCB like you'd expect, but it has the plastic hood which might help reflect the light toward the center of the screen, or maybe keep light from leaking out past the screen (there was a section in the manual about games interfering with each other if they're too close, so maybe this was done to help address the problem?) the 4 LED board doesn't have any sort of hood or any special angle to the LEDs.

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Re: Gun talk - split from Immersion USB thread
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2016, 11:08:17 pm »
I can confirm that the 4 pin chip is a surface mount transistor.... they use them in the tv I'm trying to troubleshoot.  ;)

The 5 pin chip could be another variant of a flip-flop... a gated sr latch. (Scroll down).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flip-flop_(electronics)

So the pcb for the blinky lights has chips on it to make things blink.... no surprise there.  Most likely all the resistors and what-not are a complicated (but cheap) way to regulate the timing so that pcb 1 blinks before sending power on to pcb 2 so that it blinks next or however the pattern goes.  This is all good news if you ask me because it means the parts aren't terribly expensive nor is the circuit terribly complex. 

In this day and age the circuit probably isn't even needed.... an avr could drive the leds directly in whatever pattern the main pcb is looking for.  The trick no matter which method used, would be to get the timing synced up and everything blinking exactly how the main board expects it to. 

Have you tried putting a camera on the assembly while it's running to see what is going on?  Most can see IR. 

  
 

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