$99 Windows 10 PC ( Kangaroo)

[JDFan]

Was looking at Newegg today and saw this new Windows 10 mini PC (Kangaroo Mobile desktop) that looks interesting and was wondering if any one had any idea if it would run Mame decently ( seems to have better specs than the Pi and runs a full win10 OS so could use regular pc versions of MAME) - so seems interesting for the $99 Price point it seems to include just about everything that would be needed for an emulator (unlike the PI that needs several add ons )


LINK :  http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883722001

[DudeRegular]

I threw that up for another guy in his emulator thread too. I think it looks really cool. It has to be a better solution than all the rpi stuff. Nothing wrong with those, but this thing has pretty nice specs way beyond the 99 bucks they are asking for it in my opinion. Low stock clock speed but it turbos up over 2.2GHz. It probably won't run some of the more demanding MAME stuff like Blitz or Gauntlet Legends, but most stuff should be fine. My kid's bartop is running an old c2d laptop at 1.6 GHz I think and is good.

This thing would probably be great for all the bartop builders doing lcd builds too.

[JDFan]

That's what I was thinking. the  Atom X5-Z8500 seems to have some pretty good specs (though haven't seen any actual performance reviews yet) and it comes with a full version of Win10 home not the cut down version that was designed for the pi that is mising some parts of the OS. Only bad part is the 2GB of ram and 32 GB. eMMC SSD are soldered to the MOBO so no expansion on them (though it has a USB 3.0 port on the dock so an external SSD or HDD could be added) and not really a fan of the Intel chipset graphics but even they have improved over the last few years. Looks like it just released a few days ago and is currently OOS at Newegg, so guess we'll have to wait for awhile to get actual reviews but seems it would be a good alternative to the ArcadeSD @ $325 which is still limited in the games it actually runs - since this runs Windows 10 it should be able to load any of the current front ends and run MAME just wonder where the performance cut off will be for running some of the games. 

[nitrogen_widget]

roughly 3"x5"x.5".

that is tiny & looks more attractive for a peripheral standpoint than the intel stick computers.

[pbj]

Pretty cool, but it's going to need the same thing all these other devices need - someone developing mature software for it.  I've already got a drawer full of similar devices collecting dust because I have no use for them.  At this rate, I'm going to be running that damned Xbox with CoinOps until I die.

[JDFan]

Pretty cool, but it's going to need the same thing all these other devices need - someone developing mature software for it.  I've already got a drawer full of similar devices collecting dust because I have no use for them.  At this rate, I'm going to be running that damned Xbox with CoinOps until I die.

True - but this one does run the full windows 10 OS not a cut down version so even if no specific programs develop at least it can still be useful. And it can use existing windows devices - so you can add an external HDD, wireless keyboard/mouse, etc.

[bdn103]

I have been playing with the Intel compute stick with windows 10. Looks promising and only $150.

On the Linux side, the Raspberry Pi 2 seems solid for the classics...but I haven't wired in a joystick yet. $60 as a kit.

[severdhed]

definitely looks promising.  hopefully someone will pick one of these up and test its performance.  i've been leaning towards a compute stick for my n64 emulation system, but this might be a better choice

[opt2not]

pbj, there's nothing wrong with running the Xbox w/ coin-ops. It's still a pretty good emulation machine.

[pbj]

pbj, there's nothing wrong with running the Xbox w/ coin-ops. It's still a pretty good emulation machine.

Yep, and that's going to be the last complete hijack of a games console you'll ever see.  They got close with Wii but you still have to navigate the menus with the remote.

[Grasshopper]

Just to clarify, is this device x86 compatible?

[JDFan]

Just to clarify, is this device x86 compatible?

Yes it is an x86 64bit processor - From a Tech Times article that gives a decent description of the device ( http://www.techtimes.com/articles/99834/20151027/kangaroo-is-a-99-windows-10-pc-on-a-stick-that-trumps-all-other-options.htm )

Bear in mind that the x5-Z8500 SoC uses the same x86-64 instruction sets as any of the average desktops. Hence, it can run on Windows 10, which comes pre-installed, as well as any Linux-based and other desktop operating systems.

[offset]

I haven't watched this yet (will probably watch it tonight), just saw Lon Seidman do a review of this on his youtube channel.

[vwalbridge]

Only $100?  AND it comes with windows 10? That's nuts. They are practically giving it away. Obviously the Intel NUC is a better computer at this size but can't touch this price point.

I thought the INTEL stick was good but not after seeing this Kangaroo. I'm seriously impressed.

My only complaint: It only has 2GB of RAM. Open a few tabs in Chrome and see what happens with that.

I think we will be seeing a lot more of these ultra-small form factor PCs.

[JDFan]

Only $100?  AND it comes with windows 10? That's nuts. They are practically giving it away. Obviously the Intel NUC is a better computer at this size but can't touch this price point.

I thought the INTEL stick was good but not after seeing this Kangaroo. I'm seriously impressed.

My only complaint: It only has 2GB of RAM. Open a few tabs in Chrome and see what happens with that.

I think we will be seeing a lot more of these ultra-small form factor PCs.

THat was one of the main reasons for Microsofts new licensing model with win10 - since the license is tied to the device and is not transferable to a new device (since no actual product key exists) they can sell OEM versions for cheap without worrying about people buying these type of things and moving the OS to another system instead of buying the OS. SO they can still sell the $100+ OS for retail versions without having to charge that same type of price point for other devices like these cheaper tablets/portable units - thus they can compete in both markets without killing the retail channel.

And Yeah I agree we will be seeing more of these in the coming months (or years) so hopefully a decent alternative for the ArcadeSD will show up soon at a better price point than the $300+ they charge for it and also provide better emulation than the cheap chinese xxx in 1 units.

I might pick one of these up once they are back in stock to see how it plays the classic games etc. JUst wish they had 4GB of Ram rather than the 2GB but for $99, I guess they had to cut somewhere.

[RxBrad]

Can it do hlsl / glsl, though?

Having used hlsl, there's no way I could ever go back.  It's pretty much blown all of my plans for a Pi2 cab out of the water.

[vwalbridge]

Can it do hlsl / glsl, though?

Having used hlsl, there's no way I could ever go back.  It's pretty much blown all of my plans for a Pi2 cab out of the water.

It's running the Intel HD Processor Graphics Gen8  (Gen9 is the latest on Skylake)

I've done HLSL on Gen7 and it held it's own. Of course I have my own optimized HLSL settings that seem to perform well on integrated graphics cards.

[BorgDog]

It's running the Intel HD Processor Graphics Gen8  (Gen9 is the latest on Skylake)

I've done HLSL on Gen7 and it held it's own. Of course I have my own optimized HLSL settings that seem to perform well on integrated graphics cards.

Care to share those?  I wouldn't mind trying them out on some low end systems I have, but I'm a little intimidated by all the settings in there.

[nitrogen_widget]

Here is some info & comparison charts to other CPU's.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Atom-x5-Z8500-SoC.146640.0.html

Looks like single core performance is equal to a core2duo net-top processor or amd e-series APU.
Multi-core performance is equal to an a4-5000 notebook processor.

not sure which version of mame to use on this though.

[vwalbridge]

It's running the Intel HD Processor Graphics Gen8  (Gen9 is the latest on Skylake)

I've done HLSL on Gen7 and it held it's own. Of course I have my own optimized HLSL settings that seem to perform well on integrated graphics cards.

Care to share those?  I wouldn't mind trying them out on some low end systems I have, but I'm a little intimidated by all the settings in there.

I've found these settings to look pretty good while not stressing out the graphics card too much.  However, your results may vary so remember to hit "F9" and see your frame rate

both sets below are used in my application for a vertical screen

These settings do not round the corners or use pincushion. (Less intense on the card)

Code: [Select]

#
# DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
hlsl_enable               1
hlslpath                  hlsl
hlsl_prescale_x           0
hlsl_prescale_y           0
hlsl_preset               -1
hlsl_write               
hlsl_snap_width           1024
hlsl_snap_height          768
shadow_mask_alpha         0.1
shadow_mask_texture       aperture.png
shadow_mask_x_count       320
shadow_mask_y_count       240
shadow_mask_usize         0.09375
shadow_mask_vsize         0.109375
curvature                 0.0
pincushion                0.02
scanline_alpha            1.0
scanline_size             1.0
scanline_height           1.0
scanline_bright_scale     1.0
scanline_bright_offset    0.0
scanline_jitter           0.05
defocus                   0.0,0.0
converge_x                0.2,0.0,0.0
converge_y                0.0,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_x         0.2,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_y         0.0,0.0,0.0
red_ratio                 0.85,0.15,0.0
grn_ratio                 -0.05,1.05,0.0
blu_ratio                 -0.025,-0.025,1.05
saturation                1.0
offset                    -0.15,-0.16,-0.16
scale                     1.15,1.16,1.16
power                     1.1,0.95,0.8
floor                     0.0,0.0,0.0
phosphor_life             0.0,0.0,0.0

#
# NTSC POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
yiq_enable                0
yiq_cc                    3.59754545
yiq_a                     0.5
yiq_b                     0.5
yiq_o                     0.0
yiq_p                     1.0
yiq_n                     1.0
yiq_y                     6.0
yiq_i                     1.2
yiq_q                     0.6
yiq_scan_time             52.6
yiq_phase_count           2

#
# VECTOR POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
vector_length_scale       0.8
vector_length_ratio       500.0

#
# BLOOM POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
vector_bloom_scale        0.3
raster_bloom_scale        0.1
bloom_lvl0_weight         1.0
bloom_lvl1_weight         0.21
bloom_lvl2_weight         0.19
bloom_lvl3_weight         0.17
bloom_lvl4_weight         0.15
bloom_lvl5_weight         0.14
bloom_lvl6_weight         0.13
bloom_lvl7_weight         0.12
bloom_lvl8_weight         0.11
bloom_lvl9_weight         0.10
bloom_lvl10_weight        0.09

However, if you think your card can handle it, these settings have an even more authentic look but are more intense on the card.

Code: [Select]

#
# DIRECT3D POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
hlsl_enable               1
hlslpath                  hlsl
hlsl_prescale_x           0
hlsl_prescale_y           0
hlsl_preset               -1
hlsl_write               
hlsl_snap_width           1024
hlsl_snap_height          768
shadow_mask_alpha         0.1
shadow_mask_texture       aperture.png
shadow_mask_x_count       800
shadow_mask_y_count       600
shadow_mask_usize         0.09375
shadow_mask_vsize         0.109375
curvature                 0.100000
pincushion                0.100000
scanline_alpha            1.0
scanline_size             1.0
scanline_height           1.0
scanline_bright_scale     1.0
scanline_bright_offset    0.0
scanline_jitter           0.05
defocus                   0.0,0.0
converge_x                0.2,0.0,0.0
converge_y                0.0,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_x         0.2,0.0,0.0
radial_converge_y         0.0,0.0,0.0
red_ratio                 1.0,0.0,0.0
grn_ratio                 0.0,1.0,0.0
blu_ratio                 0.0,0.0,1.0
saturation                1.15
offset                    -0.15,-0.16,-0.16
scale                     1.15,1.16,1.16
power                     1.1,0.95,0.8
floor                     0.0,0.0,0.0
phosphor_life             0.0,0.0,0.0

#
# NTSC POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
yiq_enable                0
yiq_cc                    3.59754545
yiq_a                     0.5
yiq_b                     0.5
yiq_o                     0.0
yiq_p                     1.0
yiq_n                     1.0
yiq_y                     6.0
yiq_i                     1.2
yiq_q                     0.6
yiq_scan_time             52.6
yiq_phase_count           2

#
# VECTOR POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
vector_length_scale       0.8
vector_length_ratio       500.0

#
# BLOOM POST-PROCESSING OPTIONS
#
vector_bloom_scale        0.3
raster_bloom_scale        0.1
bloom_lvl0_weight         1.0
bloom_lvl1_weight         0.21
bloom_lvl2_weight         0.19
bloom_lvl3_weight         0.17
bloom_lvl4_weight         0.15
bloom_lvl5_weight         0.14
bloom_lvl6_weight         0.13
bloom_lvl7_weight         0.12
bloom_lvl8_weight         0.11
bloom_lvl9_weight         0.10
bloom_lvl10_weight        0.09


[BorgDog]

Cool thanks, I'll try them out tonight.

[DreamArcades]

This processor is based on Cherry Trail Line (I'll double-check, but I am almost sure). We did tons of testing on the previous line, Bay Trail, and it just wasn't quite up to the task (that's what in the Intel Compute Stick ). It ran older games fine, but wouldn't run games like Gauntlet Legends, or Mortal Kombat 3.

This new line has about the same speed processor, but a slightly better graphics set (like vwalbridge said, it's still not the newest). I have another PC with this chipset, I was going to try and test out this week. If I get around to testing it, then I'll post my thoughts.

When we tested the Bay Trail, it worked fine for the classic games, but couldn't keep up for stuff like G. Legends MK3. I felt we were a couple generations out before we had a really good x86 single board PC for under $100.

[Grasshopper]

Just to clarify, is this device x86 compatible?

Yes it is an x86 64bit processor - From a Tech Times article that gives a decent description of the device ( http://www.techtimes.com/articles/99834/20151027/kangaroo-is-a-99-windows-10-pc-on-a-stick-that-trumps-all-other-options.htm )

Bear in mind that the x5-Z8500 SoC uses the same x86-64 instruction sets as any of the average desktops. Hence, it can run on Windows 10, which comes pre-installed, as well as any Linux-based and other desktop operating systems.

Nice. That makes the device potentially interesting. The only reason for choosing Intel over ARM for devices of this type is x86 compatibility.

I say 'potentially' because there is still a question mark over the bootloader.

Does it come with a proper PC bootloader that can load any PC compatible OS, or is it a heavily locked-down and undocumented bootloader that can only boot a cut-down, non-upgradeable version of Windows 10?

[JDFan]

Does it come with a proper PC bootloader that can load any PC compatible OS, or is it a heavily locked-down and undocumented bootloader that can only boot a cut-down, non-upgradeable version of Windows 10?

Not positive but it is loading a full version of win 10 not a cut down version so would assume it can be wiped and loaded with any OS that you wanted - as long as drivers for the bluetooth, Wifi, etc. can be found. That's why I was wondering what the GPU chipset performed like as it seems it would be a cheaper alternative than the ArcadeSD card and I would think it should run just as well if not better without needing the special romset and limited to the games they have released for it.

[ark_ader]

HP Stream 7 is $79 and you get a screen, Windows 8.1 and Office.  It plays games pretty good, and you can take the OS off and stick whatever you want on it.

[JDFan]

HP Stream 7 is $79 and you get a screen, Windows 8.1 and Office.  It plays games pretty good, and you can take the OS off and stick whatever you want on it.

You say it plays games pretty good - will it run MAME and the classic games at 100% or does the 1GB. of system RAM make it stutter with the disk swapping due to being out of memory with Windows and the emulator etc. all loaded into the 1GB. space ? Just wondering because I was thinking even the 2GB. on the Kangaroo system would be limiting esp since the onboard GPU would be using a good portion of that RAM also.

[BorgDog]

I have the Winbook 7" tablet which I believe is pretty similar to the HP spec wise but only 16GB storage instead of 32 and have no problems with the classics.  You definitely want to strip out what loads at startup to a bare minimum, and I have wifi disabled so no internet/no updates.   It is in my Little Bastard, link in sig I believe.

[JDFan]

I have the Winbook 7" tablet which I believe is pretty similar to the HP spec wise but only 16GB storage instead of 32 and have no problems with the classics.  You definitely want to strip out what loads at startup to a bare minimum, and I have wifi disabled so no internet/no updates.   It is in my Little Bastard, link in sig I believe.

Good to know -- was still trying to decide whether to pick one of these up since I have several monitors that could be used with it (and both an HDMI to DVI adapter and HDMI to VGA adapter) was about ready to place the order the other day after getting a $10 off any purchase code from Newegg in my email - but it was already back out of stock by the time I went to place the order so hopefully they'll get more before the end of the month when the code expires !!

[aldub516]

stuff like this pisses me off.. I spend tons of time and interest in something like the Pi, and then its like, Oh here is this sweet shiny little new guy that will do everything u want with half the learning...


ugh

[vwalbridge]

stuff like this pisses me off.. I spend tons of time and interest in something like the Pi, and then its like, Oh here is this sweet shiny little new guy that will do everything u want with half the learning...


ugh

I've used the Intel NUC and Zotac pi320 in 2 arcade builds. 2 very capable computers that did everything I wanted in my cabs. So glad I never spent the time on the Pi. Nothing against the Pi guys. In fact, nothing but respect for you guys taking the time to pave the road and make it work on that thing. I'm just lazy and windows makes it so damn easy.

If you ask me, the Pi is starting to look like an endangered species. In fact, the Pi makers are gonna have to think up something quick to compete with $99 Windows computers.

[pbj]

I spent $10 on a Raspberry Pi 2 and still feel like I overpaid. 

[tomstewdevine]

I spent $10 on a Raspberry Pi 2 and still feel like I overpaid.

I had a friend give me one because he couldn't figure out nes emulation........ that was far too expensive.

[JDFan]

Looks like they received more stock !!

Order placed while they had them and my 10% off code was still valid so total cost shipped was $92.09 (they snuck in a $2.99 shipping charge between the first time I saw it with Free shipping and the initial restock but the 10% off covered that plus a little.)


EDIT : and they're Out of stock again -- Didn't have much of a window to place an order (had checked this morning and was still out of stock) but it says mine is in packaging stage - so looks like it got in in time !

[vwalbridge]

Looks like they received more stock !!

LOL, and now out of stock again. Man, there are some people out there waiting in line for this thing.

[JDFan]

Looks like they received more stock !!

LOL, and now out of stock again. Man, there are some people out there waiting in line for this thing.

LOL - yeah I was just editing my last post - at least mine says it has processed and is now in packaging stage so guess I made it in time unless they update something later !

And as for waiting in line - they are allowing backorders, so probably have quite a few being sold on back order then when an order comes in and they process all the backorders they evidently don't have many left to restock.

[SNAAKE]

does 1080p full HD?

[zebidia]

Hi everyone. Just popping in to say that I bought one of the Kangaroo units a few days ago, and am really impressed with it so far. I installed MAME on it, using Maximum Arcade as the front-end, and so far it's working great. I have only tried a dozen or so classic games, like Ms Pacman, DK and DKjr, as well as the 194x series of shmups, and they all ran at 100%, even with HLSL enabled. I will be trying more games over the next few days; Not sure which ones would be good to really put the PC to the test... any suggestions?

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about it, too.

[JDFan]

Hi everyone. Just popping in to say that I bought one of the Kangaroo units a few days ago, and am really impressed with it so far. I installed MAME on it, using Maximum Arcade as the front-end, and so far it's working great. I have only tried a dozen or so classic games, like Ms Pacman, DK and DKjr, as well as the 194x series of shmups, and they all ran at 100%, even with HLSL enabled. I will be trying more games over the next few days; Not sure which ones would be good to really put the PC to the test... any suggestions?

I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about it, too.

I got mine about a week ago also - Haven't really tested much yet but from the testing so far am impressed - did play some classics (Robotron, Popeye, Frogger, Tapper, Street Fighter II CE ) and all played 100% - tried Street Fighter EX Plus which is a bit more graphical and it runs about 95% with dips to around 90% range - so it works well with most of the older arcade games and even some of the fighters but will definitely not be for newer heavy graphics games like Gauntlet DL or Street Fighter EX plus and higher. (the combo of onboard intel graphics and only 2 GB. of RAM being shared for the PC and the Graphics make heavily graphical games struggle) - Also played some games of Fix it Felix using the disney leaked version and Howards wrapper and it runs 100% with no slowdowns. Still seems a better alternative to the Pi and ArcadeSD as it performs as well as the Arcade SD but much cheaper and more game options.

For my setup I'm using a 19" Dell 4:3 monitor attached through a HDMI to DVI adapter and a separate USB sound adapter ( $0.99 job from China) with a 6ft HDMI cable running from the kangaroo to the HDMI to DVI adapter (  $1.00 cable and $4 Adapter) hooked to the monitor. A $10 set of PC speakers (110V instead of USB) hooked to the USB sound adapter and a USB 2.0 connection from the Kangaroo to the upstream USB connection on the monitor provides 4 USB 2.0 connections ( 1 used by the sound adapter - 1 for the Wireless Mouse/Keyboard dongle ( while testing and setting up) - 1 for the ZD encoder (using a cheap dual joystick 6 button CP I built for playing on my desktop for testing) and a $22 64GB EVO plus micro sd card for Mameui64 and the roms.

 SO all in about $160 for the PC, adapters needed and monitor for a build that can play the classics and most of the mid level Mame games ( $99 Kangaroo + $22 MicroSD card + $1 6ft HDMI cable + 1 USB Printer cable + $1 USB sound adapter + $5 HDMI to DVI adapter + $10 PC speaker set + $20 Arrowdirect Dell 19" Monitor with 4 USB ports.) makes for a good start on a system for fairly little $.

Overall it is a good option if you keep in mind the limitations ( think it would perform better if they increased it to 4GB Ram, so the GPU chip could use more without limiting the CPU allowance ) but for the $99 a very good deal compared to the Arcade SD @ $350 - though by the time you add the microsd card - and various adapters depending on your monitor (An HDMI monitor would be fine for both sound and display but for VGA or DVI you'd need a solution for adapting the HDMI and also for sound ( tested with HDMI to VGA with sound adapter and HDMI to DVI and USB ssound adapter - and both work fine and are plug and play with the kangaroo automatically detecting and setting them up ) you're a bit higher at around $160+/-

SO overall it might take a couple more generations of chips to have something able to play all of the MAME games but this is closer than the other options so far - If I was building for a fighting machine or wanted newer games I'd still stick to a PC that had the options to upgrade the RAM and add an independent Gpu if the build had the room for one but this will definitely be good for space limited machines that keep the gamelist to slightly less demanding games ( As I mentioned it plays Street Fighter II CE fine but much more demanding and it starts to struggle a bit) and for the price point is definitely worth a look.

[Slippyblade]

Holy crap.  I knew it was small, but actually seeing it, wow.  Interesting when the plugs are almost larger than the comp itself!  Do you think this little guy would be a good machine for general desktop use?  Non gaming, I mean.

[zebidia]

I am using an old 19" NEC Multisync monitor, connected to the Kangaroo through an active HDMI-to-VGA converter. The converter has an audio out jack, which I've plugged my cheap-o Dell speakers into. Works great when it works; When I wake the Kangaroo up after it has gone into sleep mode, the audio no longer works. I have to reboot to recover. I'm not sure if it's a Windows 10 driver issue, or the HDMI converter. I contacted Kangaroo tech support and they have not had any reports of audio problems,, but I didn't ask what most people do for audio, given that the PC has no audio jack.

JDFan: I agree on the need for more memory, and asked the Kangaroo support person about it. (S)he told me that they would be releasing a new model in summer 2016 that addresses this #1 customer request. I'm definitely keeping my eye on it, as more memory would increase my Iove this little thing.

As for using this as an everyday PC, I think it's fine for browsing and text editing, but the following review gives some concrete performance numbers that may enlighten:

http://www.tomsguide.com/us/kangaroo-mobile-desktop,review-3204.html