.

[ChanceKJ]

.

[saint]

Pulled out to a separate thread for those who want to discuss it.

My 2 bits - demonstrating tact when constructively criticizing someone's design is a lost art on the Internet sometimes, sadly. Stifling constructive criticism due to fear of offending isn't helpful either though. There's a balance there somewhere. I'd sure like it back.

[pbj]

Says we need to have a thicker skin and move on if something offends us... and spends a page ranting about being offended.

Good talk, bro.

[Token]

BYOAC is the best place online to get advice and tips on this hobby. The vast majority of the members here are helpful to newbies and veterans alike. Here is a thread from today where the newbie gets some good snark-free help. When BYOAC works, it works great!

But BYOAC can also be very unfriendly to newbies. I think some of you view constructive feedback as cracking jokes about others' projects and calling their control panels ---smurfy---. This benefits no-one.

Does everyone love the Space Paranoids control panel? Are eight buttons per player appropriate for an arcade cabinet? Do we need to rehash this in every new build thread?

And before I get accused of stifling constructive feedback-- I come here because I want to avoid mistakes and learn from the veterans. I'm not asking you to stop pointing out potential problems in other people's work.  I'm asking you to do it with some tact.

In saint's own words, "File this under the 'if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all' category."

[Malenko]

You're grow ass adults, start acting like it.

Hi pot, this is the kettle, how ya doing?

Enjoy being the commodore of the fleet and running the UCA's solo.

[opt2not]

I thought my comments were tactful. I try my best to be.
But apparently not since I'm one of "the couple" that needs a 1-month ban or something. Chance's words. I would have appreciated being pm'd or responded to within this forum, rather than cowardly rediculed on Instagram.
Ratted me out to Saint huh? Nice job Chance. You're a real contributing member. Welcome to my blacklist. Contribute to that, ---uvula---.

And if Chance is on the UCA committee, consider me resigned from it.
I'd rather have no part of it if the committee is made up of people who want to stifle freedom of expression and feedback. (Also Chance, regard that KLOV group-buy...count me out too. I'd rather not deal with you entirely)

In fact if BYOAC is going in the Chance direction, my time here is going to come to an end.
"The spirit" of BYOAC, whatever it is, is looking grim if we can't give feedback without the sensitive members crying to the mods all the time.

[ChanceKJ]

.

[Malenko]

I thought my comments were tactful. I try my best to be.
But apparently not since I'm one of "the couple" that needs a 1-month ban or something. Chance's words. I would have appreciated being pm'd or responded to within this forum, rather than cowardly rediculed on Instagram.
Ratted me out to Saint huh? Nice job Chance. You're a real contributing member. Welcome to my blacklist. Contribute to that, ---uvula---.

And if Chance is on the UCA committee, consider me resigned from it.
I'd rather have no part of it if the committee is made up of people who want to stifle freedom of expression and feedback. (Also Chance, regard that KLOV group-buy...count me out too. I'd rather not deal with you entirely)

In fact if BYOAC is going in the Chance direction, my time here is going to come to an end.
"The spirit" of BYOAC, whatever it is, is looking grim if we can't give feedback without the sensitive members crying to the mods all the time.

I can haz your babies?

UCAs is down to Chance and PBJ, gonna be the best UCA's eva!

[ChanceKJ]

.

[rablack97]

I thought this was an open forum to where you should be able to say any and everything you want, and its at the OP's discretion to either ignore or use your input.

AFAIK, there is no feature on the internet to make people do what you want them to do.  It's all voiced opinions, I mean if the idea is to pat each other on the butts and say good job on every single thing we see on this site, then lets all put on the dresses and have tea while watching Oprah.

I've have people thrash my builds that i was super proud of and alot of those folks are good friends today, my builds improved over the years as i gleaned what i needed too from the comments, to improve, not necessarily change my current project.

MAN-UP people, build what you want, taking your ball and going home is a ---smurfy--- way of admitting you got your feelings hurt.  Over a damn arcade machine......geeezzzz

Showcasing your build is like posting a nude photo of yourself on the internet, not everyone is gonna agree with what they see, but if you were bold enough to do it then why should you care about the comments, some will blow your head up others with deflate you like the Brady ball.

These are machines people, not your family, kids, mom dad, etc........

If you choose not to share then that's your choice, i've seen people come and go, leaving a positive impression on the forum.

---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- Chance, i dont like the CP style either, but i love your build techniques and the side profiles, i learned alot from your build, and people mimic what you do cause its different.  Regardless of how your CP looks the build quality is spot on, you dont see anybody giving you ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on that do you......

So chill bro, its a machine, laugh it up........and keep doing what you do, your gonna get more flack now cause you emotionally blew up over nothing.

I have to admit this is the first time where i've seen a blowup like this, reminds me of this...and when he leaves, this is exactly what the forum will do.....keep it moving

[rablack97]

Look at slogan under the Avatar, says is all, even has your name in it.

If you don't try, you have no chance at innovation.

[saint]

For what it's worth, there's no change in moderation, tone, or other direction of the site coming from me. Tact and good will towards one another are all I've ever really asked for. Beyond that I figure most everyone here is an adult and will work things out.

--- saint

[yotsuya]

Look at slogan under the Avatar, says is all, even have your name in it.

If you don't try, you have no chance at innovation.

I love Rodney. I wish you lived here in Arizona, bro. I'd buy you lunch right now.

[Vigo]

My props to Saint for handling this well and keeping the communications open. No matter what, I love BYOAC for the culture Saint presses of treating each other like adults and keeping order through communication. You are very appreciated.


I honestly am going to be doing a bit of soul searching on this topic. I totally get how I am part of a camp that sounds like we are criticizing every build. Every thread that comes up with angled joysticks, too many buttons, 4 foot wide control panels, mismatched screen ratios and sizes, etc, we are challenging their decisions because those are items that we see as overkill / feature creep / design flaws. Our experience and prior mistakes told us these are pitfalls and for a project that can cost thousands, we are genuinely trying to save others from traveling down a bad path.

It seems to be a common to find these kind of issues in recent build threads. Maybe the next generation of this hobby seems to value these things I consider as mistakes as great features. That you new guys want monoliths that cover every control and play every modern game, and that's what makes a great machine.

Right now, maybe I am thinking they are right. Maybe I am obsolete and don't have the scope or vision to make a machine that encompasses the wants or needs of the next generation of this hobby. I just want a machine that I can play TMNT or Commando or Rampage on...and have fun.  I can't help but think that those of us who keep hammering on knowing limitations, design only for what you will play and avoid feature creep are just the fading generation of the guys who grew up in the arcades and are trying to recreate an experience. Maybe the new crowd is looking for something completely different. Maybe we are like the uncool geezers criticizing the kids for their skateboards and rap music....I don't know anymore.



 

[yotsuya]

My props to Saint for handling this well and keeping the communications open. No matter what, I love BYOAC for the culture Saint presses of treating each other like adults and keeping order through communication. You are very appreciated.


I honestly am going to be doing a bit of soul searching on this topic. I totally get how I am part of a camp that sounds like we are criticizing every build. Every thread that comes up with angled joysticks, too many buttons, 4 foot wide control panels, mismatched screen ratios and sizes, etc, we are challenging their decisions because those are items that we see as overkill / feature creep / design flaws. Our experience and prior mistakes told us these are pitfalls and for a project that can cost thousands, we are genuinely trying to save others from traveling down a bad path.

It seems to be a common to find these kind of issues in recent build threads. Maybe the next generation of this hobby seems to value these things I consider as mistakes as great features. That you new guys want monoliths that cover every control and play every modern game, and that's what makes a great machine.

Right now, maybe I am thinking they are right. Maybe I am obsolete and don't have the scope or vision to make a machine that encompasses the wants or needs of the next generation of this hobby. I just want a machine that I can play TMNT or Commando or Rampage on...and have fun.  I can't help but think that those of us who keep hammering on knowing limitations, design only for what you will play and avoid feature creep are just the fading generation of the guys who grew up in the arcades and are trying to recreate an experience. Maybe the new crowd is looking for something completely different. Maybe we are like the uncool geezers criticizing the kids for their skateboards and rap music....I don't know anymore.

Well said, Vigo. Pretty much how I feel.

[Malenko]

Really this is the only time i'm going to bother even stooping to your low level of internet trolling by addressing you directly Malenko.

Mal, your interwebs drama bores me. And i'm going to stop here before you think it, or you, actually matters one bit to me.

I'm more indifferent to you than anything else. You PM'ed me back when the UAC thing happened, and I was cordial with you.

You have an affinity for the aircraft carrier design, and I dislike it. Me disliking it and being vocal about it seems to rub you the wrong way. You think its the bee's knees and that's fine, but you dont want anyone to dissuade these new people from remaking the same panel and that's not fine. I think there's a pretty good reason only new members are copying the design.  I don't troll you . Ive never said anything derogatory about you or your build quality, just talked about that ---smurfy--- CP design that isn't even yours. Going forward I'll be sure to no bother replying to you. I do applaud the completely different tone you have on here as opposed to instagram 

I am sorry I am not nearly as articulate in my retorts as other people are. Vigo hit the nail on the head and I feel the same way. Maybe 15 years on these boards is too many. If Chad can quit anybody can.

[yotsuya]

I am sorry I am not nearly as articulate in my retorts as other people are. Vigo hit the nail on the head and I feel the same way. Maybe 15 years on these boards is too many. If Chad can quit anybody can.

I thought the NFL suspended Chaddles for Deflategate?

[harveybirdman]

Although I'm not a fan of the Flynn's panel and probably one of the snide comments group, I would like to point out that nobody was posting in Chance's thread telling him that Flynn's sucked at the time.  Heck some of the posters that I admire the most were encouraging Chance throughout the process.

I didn't post in his Flynn's thread because it wasn't really my thing and I didn't have anything to add.  I do post in some of his others though and Chance, we need an Ultimate DK update.

I understand what Vigo said and find myself struggling with similar emotions.

However I also like Mal and PBJ and Nep (though he's since left the forum) a TON because of their willingness to say what I'm sometimes too afraid to.

I honestly don't understand how people let their comments get under their skin.  Heck Mal checked me on comments I made about four player panels being stupid and I didn't feel the need to let that disagreement fester.  I guess I think perhaps people should realize that Malenko gotta Malenko; pbj gotta pbj; and xiaou2 gotta xiaou2; and accept that they make things a bit more colorful and interesting around here.

Certainly like having this discussion when things have been SUPER slow on the forums of late.

Where the heck is Ond? LeChuck? We need some more builds going on here in project announcements from the big timers.

Keep posting Chance, I like to read about your shenanigans and will tolerate your silly code names.  I would like to see what your friend Cody does with that Dangar cab as well.

[ChanceKJ]

.

[Xiaou2]

There are many here whom post mostly just to gain attention to themselves.

 They think their snarky attitude loaded comments,  and obvious passive aggression,  are perfectly peachy and acceptable.

 Its not about constructive criticism with certain people here.  For these people... its  "Do it my way... or Ill throw rocks at you and laugh".

 There is virtually no scale to the responses.   If you are agreeing with them and their ideas and ways..   they Love-Bomb you, and you are their best buds.    If you have even a slight difference in perspective... you are considered to be disrespecting them, hating on them... and are attacked with the knife.   This Love to Hate switch, can turn on a dime.. in a mere sentence.   Even if you were so called "Friends",  for many many years.  These people really do not have actual friendships.  Just people they hang out with for "Supply" (attention),  and manipulation.

 They will even go so far... as to gather up all of their Love-Bombed 'Friends'.. to attack you in planned and concerted efforts.  Forming pile-on's..  until either the posts are deleted.. and or the person is enraged enough to vanish.  (or conform to  "play-ball" )

 This is classic Malignant Narcissism,  and possibly a touch of Bi-Polarism  in action.    Malignant Narcissist usually are Psychopathic.   They do not have any real Empathy or care for anyone.    They consider others as an extension of themselves.   If you present weakness.. it is attacked with fierce hate... because it reminds them of their own weak internals.   This is why one of these posters has to put me on Ignore... because he cant handle being called out and shown how weak he really is.  Its also part of the ego-driven public image hes trying to project and maintain.

 You attack this false image..  and its like attacking them personally on a physical level.    Some go so far as to consider your words as a form of lethal attack.  You are killing their carefully constructed lies... destroying them from the inside.   Some will retaliate in extreme ways... such as causing someone to lose their job,  or even to Kill that person.

 They are very calculating.  They will use wording that is vague... so you cant quite fully call them out on a lot of what they say..   and so they can worm their way out of their ugly posted attitudes and abuses.    They will even go so far as to think up these things in advance.  Planning them in great detail.  Sometimes even getting others to play various roles in the plans execution.  (knowingly, knowing partially, and or not knowing at all)

 It seems crazy to the Avg. joe...  but this is mental illness.   They do not operate, think, nor behave in a rational and logical way.   Until you know what motivates them... and what their traits do... you can easily be the victim in their games...  or be party to helping them with their games.


 Think about it...   What kind of SANE / Rational  person... goes online and spends hours, and hundreds of often short, but potently negative, passive aggressive posts... on a daily basis?

 Its one thing to say...  "You may want to reconsider Angling your sticks... due to this reason".   (And no offense should be taken from a person not agreeing or using your advice)  Its a completely different thing to say  "Nice Air-Strip"   to a control panel submission.    If you really felt there was a way to reduce some space... you could easily suggest it in a positive way such as:   "If you swapped this controller to this position... you can shave about 6 inches off you CP".    But instead... you just get the typical  "Drive-By"  "Slap in the face"  "Passive Aggressive"  comment..   Usually followed by the Users reaction (supply),  and then the volley of further Supply.   (Supply = Attention..   and to these  "Black-Holes" ... negative attention is just as good as positive attention)

 IMO... its time to start calling their play out every time they do them, and shutting them down.  Effectively,  you take their game away...  and not allow it to continue.  They then have no real choice..  but to either play nicer... or to have to be in Time-Out.

 This isnt about Censorship.   Its about creating a far more positive environment... rather than a dreadful negative and hostile place.
If the rotten cancer is not cut out... it grows and multiplies.   It also attracts others whom operate the same... and again.. makes things even worse.

[Vigo]

IMO... its time to start calling their play out every time they do them, and shutting them down. 

Don't worry X, Mission Accomplished.

[yotsuya]

I think it's funny considered X2's going back and forth with Malenko was one of the REASONS for this thread....

[ChanceKJ]

.

[rablack97]

 

All in fun people, so get back to posting stuff that people come back here to see and leave this drama ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- in the dirt.......

I don't care if the the thing looks like the starship enterprise....inspiration is the key, and you cant get inspired if there's nothing to talk ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about.....

Keep the diversity coming   

[Token]

Every thread that comes up with angled joysticks, too many buttons, 4 foot wide control panels, mismatched screen ratios and sizes, etc, we are challenging their decisions because those are items that we see as overkill / feature creep / design flaws. Our experience and prior mistakes told us these are pitfalls and for a project that can cost thousands, we are genuinely trying to save others from traveling down a bad path.

   Yes! Researching here has saved me (and I'm sure many others) from making these mistakes.

The experience of you crusty old timers is invaluable. Please don't stop offering up advice.

Speaking of needing input from the veterans, I finally posted some art for my cabinet. I'd appreciate any input on that over here.

[Xiaou2]

I honestly am going to be doing a bit of soul searching on this topic. I totally get how I am part of a camp that sounds like we are criticizing every build.

 Critisizm is fine.. as long as its Constructive.    Theres no need for making fun of others works and or ideas.   So long as thats kept in mind.. then there would never be any problem.    You give your positive constructive feedback... and they can either take it or leave it.

 How many people really react well to being told,  forced,  or  Mocked...  into doing something?    You attract more Bees with Honey, than you do with Vinegar.

Every thread that comes up with angled joysticks, too many buttons, 4 foot wide control panels, mismatched screen ratios and sizes, etc, we are challenging their decisions because those are items that we see as overkill / feature creep / design flaws. Our experience and prior mistakes told us these are pitfalls and for a project that can cost thousands, we are genuinely trying to save others from traveling down a bad path.

 Some of the things mentioned ... are factual.   Some are purely Opinion based.   There is a large difference in that.
Having angled sticks.. can easily create gameplay problems.   Having a larger pedestal control panel... does NOT effect gameplay.. In fact.. it can Enhance the experience that is desired.   The opinion, then often comes down to Looks... which again, is your Opinion, and how much you place value in looks - vs - function.    You cant Lump these two vastly different things into the same pot.

 As for what these things Cost... its their money..  and their desires.   Why try to talk a Tron fan out of putting a Tron stick on his CP... merely because YOU feel it looks Ugly?!?!?!?!     This is what they guy loves.. and he should never feel pressure and or get negative comments about his dream of playing this game with the proper controller.

 The followup would often then be... well, if he really wants to play these games... he SHOULD be making multiple cabinets.   And yet the answer is pretty simple.. that not everyone has the money, time, or space... to make many cabinets  - vs - one.   And again.. it shouldnt even be an argument.  Its personal OPINION.. and you are not living in his house, looking at or playing "HIS" machine.   Its His money, his machine, and his dream.

 So then why attack?   Out of personal injury because your opinion is different?    It makes No sense at all.   (although, I do not recall you being a heavy handed attacker.. especially in recent timeframes)

It seems to be a common to find these kind of issues in recent build threads. Maybe the next generation of this hobby seems to value these things I consider as mistakes as great features. That you new guys want monoliths that cover every control and play every modern game, and that's what makes a great machine.

 This is somewhat like you are asking a question... and under the context that you think your are more valid... IMO.
I do not think that the Modern Timeframe is accurate to your argument either.  There have always been many builders that place many controllers on larger control panels.    And what makes a great machine is largely an Opinion.   Usually...  its main factor is  "Can it play the games I want to play... correctly?'

 Some people are willing to settle on controls that are inferior in function..  or play games with substitute controls that are not as accurate.  And or decided not to even bother to play certain games..  because they didnt want their cabinet to LOOK cluttered.   This again.. is all based on opinion.   Not factual "right or wrong"  mentality.

Right now, maybe I am thinking they are right. Maybe I am obsolete and don't have the scope or vision to make a machine that encompasses the wants or needs of the next generation of this hobby. I just want a machine that I can play TMNT or Commando or Rampage on...and have fun.  I can't help but think that those of us who keep hammering on knowing limitations, design only for what you will play and avoid feature creep are just the fading generation of the guys who grew up in the arcades and are trying to recreate an experience. Maybe the new crowd is looking for something completely different. Maybe we are like the uncool geezers criticizing the kids for their skateboards and rap music....I don't know anymore.

 Ugg.   Now you are trying to use age and experience to Justify your OPINIONS on machine designs... as something that Should be valid fact.

 1)   What you want... and what others want are different.  Learn to accept that.  Do you like being forced to eat something you dont like?
Age has nothing to do with not liking "Broccoli",  for example.   It does Not matter how much I... and many others from my generation LOVE Broccoli.   Its your mouth,  your taste buds... and your money... that decide what you like or do not care for.   All the convincing in the world will never change that.

 2)  Only what you will play?    So maybe you put a spinner in your cabinet... and realized that you didnt really care to play spinner games.   Does that mean that others will feel the same?  NOPE.    There are in fact many whom may feel completely Opposite.. and LOVE spinner games...  playing them far more in frequency than other games.. that you prefer.

 3) Feature Creep?!    Whats that?   You mean like a Phone that can not only allow you to call someone... but also to:

   Play Music
   Play Games
   Send Text
   Perform Calculations
   Create & Read Documents
   Surf the Internetz
   Hook up with Girlz
   Etc...

  Ohh wait...   You are saying, many features are a bad thing?!    Seems generally speaking, people disagree with that in Masses.   

 Id have to assume you are really talking about space and comfort concerns.. and or looks again.    Larger CPs can in fact be designed well and be very functional... with good comfort.    But again.. no matter what... its merely your opinions against their desires in both of these respects.

 THe only exceptions,  may be like the example I posted in the original thread...  which states that resting your hands on buttons can cause discomfort.   I provided a positive example work-around, rather than a mere slap-comment.   And if he does not listen nor care.. it does not bother me in the least bit...  let alone spend time and energy mocking him over his difference of opinions... on HIS cabinet.

4)   "who grew up in the arcades and are trying to recreate an experience"    This is often a Contradictory statement.  If you tell the person not to put a Tron Trigger stick on his CP... you are telling them they should not re-create their childhood arcade experience.   If they want to put more controls than you do on a larger CP... its again, the same thing.

 Just because the experience isnt EXACTLY the same... does not make it invalid.   You dont need a full PacMan replica cabinet to have a good Pacman experience.   You can have that experience with a real 4 way leafswitch controller.   Sure.. there may be 8 buttons and an microswitch on the CP as well... but who cares?   Its the game play and control that really defines what makes Pacman play like Pacman.    Once you start trying to use a Touch Screen to play Pacman... only then are you really going against the actual Arcade Experience.

 And again... AGE has nothing to do with this.   Not everyone has the money nor space, to have a room filled with all of their favorite replica machines.  There is Always going to be compromises.   These compromises are based on their Opinions, and their resources.   Nobody should be sniped because of either.


 But for the record.. AGE can be a factor in knowledge, experience and opinions.     For example..  if you have NEVER played with a real restricted 4 way stick... then you dont know what you are missing.  You dont know why anyone would go through the trouble of putting a 2nd stick on their CP.. rather than one regular 8 way.  (Or even a hybrid.. which is still lacking comparatively)

 You also have a lot of former arcade goers that are from many different ages of the arcade.    People like Howard came into the arcades seeing games like Mortal Kombat.    Not really experiencing the hayday of the 80s... where games and controllers were Vastly different and unique.    As such... he may never really understand the value of many of the older games,  and their specialized controllers.

 Heck... even some of the most praised machines here.... still do not replicate the true machines look, sound, and feel.   There is always some form of compromise thats used.     But again... this is their goal and opinion... based on their experiences and desires.   Some of these peoples opinions might change in time... but maybe they wont.    If they change... maybe they sell off their cab..  or re-work parts of it.

 Who cares... its Their machine.

 If you dont like it... then dont bother to comment, look at,  nor visit them... to play it.   


 Finally, Im not trying to pick on you personally.   But I did want to clarify the arguments typically had, and bring more light to them.

[opt2not]

Every thread that comes up with angled joysticks, too many buttons, 4 foot wide control panels, mismatched screen ratios and sizes, etc, we are challenging their decisions because those are items that we see as overkill / feature creep / design flaws. Our experience and prior mistakes told us these are pitfalls and for a project that can cost thousands, we are genuinely trying to save others from traveling down a bad path.

   Yes! Researching here has saved me (and I'm sure many others) from making these mistakes.

The experience of you crusty old timers is invaluable. Please don't stop offering up advice.

Speaking of needing input from the veterans, I finally posted some art for my cabinet. I'd appreciate any input on that over here.

Good luck on your build.  I for one am going to limit the amount of advice I give from now on. Too many sensitive people here.

[Xiaou2]

I think it's funny considered X2's going back and forth with Malenko was one of the REASONS for this thread....

  Corrected:

"Considering Malenko going back and forth with X2 was the reason"

 Uhh... I would pop into threads that I wasnt even participating in... and see Mal badmouthing me,  and or some other users... ALL THE TIME.
Many times, I didnt even respond.   However,  after taking several jabs to the jaw... Id finally have enough, and serve it right back.

 I made exactly ONE comment "about a user" (didnt even use his Name) that had posted a bad attitude on the original thread.   Its was in fact 1000% Accurate.
It wasnt degrading, nor abusive.    I called it a shame...  and gave constructive positive, non-abusive, feedback.. in the thread, to the Op.

 Mal has consistently been passive aggressive in his postings, on a regular basis..  especially if you didnt kiss up to his ideals and take his abuses with a smile.

 Im sure he will be back, with a new Sock-Puppet,  to try to continue his attention supply needs.

 He tries to paint me and others as the bad guys.. because a Malignant Narcissist is ALWAYS the person who is the Victim.
He will gain attention in his dramatic Exit.. and look forward to the Supply it gives him.
He may even be looking for some form of backlash against the said parties that supposedly made him leave.

 The evidence of his behavior is overwhelming,  and littered throughout his posts.
Anyone whom knows about these mental illnesses can spot it miles away.    And those who dont.. can easily be fooled.  (So I highly suggest getting knowledged-up)

 I do hope that one day, these Illnesses can be cured.   Until then, you have to protect yourself.  Sadly, Ive learned the hard way... through years of abuses from many family members... as well as external sources.

 The problem with me... is that Im very friendly and personable, in person.   I wear my heart on my sleeve... and Im an open-book.  It made me an easy target... which is exactly what these kinds of Predators are looking for.

[yotsuya]

Yeah... I stand by my original point. If you don't believe me, ask the OP.

[Vigo]

Finally, Im not trying to pick on you personally.   But I did want to clarify the arguments typically had, and bring more light to them.

No worries there. I am looking for any and all comments on my post, from people from all points of view.

[Token]

Yeah... I stand by my original point. If you don't believe me, ask the OP.

Not sure what happened with you two, but I'd like to say that your feedback in Chance's Flynn's thread was exactly what we need here. You didn't hold back from telling him that you weren't impressed by some aspects of his build, but it didn't stop you from encouraging him and providing solid advice. 

Others seem to have a hard time looking beyond faux pas in order to offer useful advice.

[yotsuya]

Yeah... I stand by my original point. If you don't believe me, ask the OP.

Not sure what happened with you two, but I'd like to say that your feedback in Chance's Flynn's thread was exactly what we need here. You didn't hold back from telling him that you weren't impressed by some aspects of his build, but it didn't stop you from encouraging him and providing solid advice. 

Others seem to have a hard time looking beyond faux pas in order to offer useful advice.

Chance and I are peachy. My point was that X2s bickering was part of the reason why Chance posted that in the first place, but typically Steve doesn't want to take responsibility for it.

[ChanceKJ]

.

[pbj]

My rule of thumb, which I'm sure I've violated countless times, was to keep my mouth shut if I didn't like it once someone started cutting boards. 

I think it's fair game in the planning stages or if you show up with a completed project picture and a "go to my blog on tumblr!" link. 

I thought a wide panel worked with the NASA theme, personally.  (I've also pondered the wisdom of the non-angled joysticks as on my turtle box, players 3 and 4 are VERY close to the screen and it is extremely disorienting.  In that particular instance, I think the angled sticks -might- be a better idea.  The ideal solution is moving my control panel back another foot, but that means I have to park outside like a peasant.)

[opt2not]

[harveybirdman]

I now want to go play hotdog storm for some reason...

[scoodidabop]

 

I thought a wide panel worked with the NASA theme, personally.  (I've also pondered the wisdom of the non-angled joysticks as on my turtle box, players 3 and 4 are VERY close to the screen and it is extremely disorienting.  In that particular instance, I think the angled sticks -might- be a better idea.  The ideal solution is moving my control panel back another foot, but that means I have to park outside like a peasant.)

Not sure where the angled sticks idea popped up.  P3/P4 will be the same orientation as P1/P2 - otherwise it's a little confusing to control.  Thanks though! I do think the wide panel works well for my build.

Anyway I'm sorry my stupid build started such a silly argument.  This is supposed to be fun, right?  I mean, we're building video game boxes.  It's not that big a deal.   You don't have to be up in arms and dismissive of ideas that don't suit your tastes.  I started coming to this forum for the seemingly good-natured, constructive atmosphere of builders who share ideas and refine the landscape of arcade building.  I'm totally open to constructive feedback informed discussion.  When things devolve into purely negative language it not only discourages me from returning, but it can scare new builders (or new posters - like me) away and leech negativity into the community.  Comparing a design approach to "a virus - or herpes" doesn't do anything for anyone.   

I was made the butt end of some criticism about the Space Paranoids/Battleship/"Flynn" control panel shape.  First off, I've built the control panel before and liked it.  I'm new-ish to the boards, sure, but I've built that control panel before and none of the pitfalls mentioned about the Battleship resonated with me at all.  In fact the response has been overwhelmingly positive when 4 players play on it.

All I'm saying is that I wish the tone wasn't so negative, and on my thread in particular. I seldom see that kind of negativity on this board so the heat getting directed at me really came out of left field.  I'm glad to be a part of the community and I hope we can move forward from here, and in a way that's conducive to bettering our methods, techniques and overall builds.

My feelings aren't hurt either, bros.  If you really wanna bash my build go for it. Just don't expect things around here to stay constructive if we all start acting like dillweeds.

[harveybirdman]

One thing that would make me a lot less cantankerous is if you noobs would please start posting your images here at the forums instead of hot linking them from image sites.

see that link that says attachments and other options at the bottom of the Post Reply section?  That's where they go.  If you want to post them in the image thread then link them to your build thread that's cool too.

[opt2not]

Here's some additional context for those just tuning in:
https://instagram.com/p/8gbZJ3Q51P/

Quite a different tone.

[scoodidabop]

One thing that would make me a lot less cantankerous is if you noobs would please start posting your images here at the forums instead of hot linking them from image sites.

see that link that says attachments and other options at the bottom of the Post Reply section?  That's where they go.  If you want to post them in the image thread then link them to your build thread that's cool too.

Just curious - what's wrong with hot linking the images?

[harveybirdman]

I can't see it at work and it isn't on the site for posterity

[yotsuya]

One thing that would make me a lot less cantankerous is if you noobs would please start posting your images here at the forums instead of hot linking them from image sites.

see that link that says attachments and other options at the bottom of the Post Reply section?  That's where they go.  If you want to post them in the image thread then link them to your build thread that's cool too.

Just curious - what's wrong with hot linking the images?

Because 2-3 years down the road, when you cancel your Imgur/Instagram/Flickr account, all the photos go with you, resulting in threads with gaps and no images. It's an issue.

[vwalbridge]

One thing that would make me a lot less cantankerous is if you noobs would please start posting your images here at the forums instead of hot linking them from image sites.

see that link that says attachments and other options at the bottom of the Post Reply section?  That's where they go.  If you want to post them in the image thread then link them to your build thread that's cool too.

Just curious - what's wrong with hot linking the images?

Because 2-3 years down the road, when you cancel your Imgur/Instagram/Flickr account, all the photos go with you, resulting in threads with gaps and no images. It's an issue.

I agree with this. Really sucks to visit an old thread just to have broken image links.

However, at risk of catching heat for this, I'm a habitual Photobucket image linker.

Sorry, but embedding images in this forum is cumbersome. Call me lazy, but there ain't nothing easier than mass uploading all my photos at once to Photobucket and then dropping the url in my thread.

With some users having rotated images, freakin' way over-sized images, and images all packed at the end of a post....I'll continue to use Photobucket.

***braces for impact***

[scoodidabop]

Oh, right. Makes perfect sense.  I'm extremely guilty of this so I'll spend some time eliminating all my hotlinks.

[BadMouth]

I had two or three small project threads here before I caught on.
It really sank in when I went back to a motorcycle forum that I used to frequent.  I needed to reference pics from my own threads, but they were all gone.  Hadn't used the photobucket account in years or something.

Spent a slow day at work transferring BYOAC pics from flickr to here.

My one great failure is linking to ebay pics of epic fail guy's Star Wars Pachinko machine instead of downloading and attaching the photos.
Picture a random pachinko machine with pictures cut out of star wars posters glued to it and 3 or 4 star wars action figures glued to the top.  Yeah, words don't do it justice. 

[rablack97]

because whenever your hotlink site goes away so do the photos.....

site has lost a lot of good documentation photos that way, when member leaves their hotlinked photos usually follow.

[Vigo]

I can't see it at work and it isn't on the site for posterity

My work filters out most image sites as well. Kills the experience of following a projet.

[winnydapoo]

Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it 

The tone has changed here lately, but then it has a lot over the years too.  I think it's the most passive aggressive and sarcastic it has been in a long time though.

In my opinion, there have always been two interesting perspectives on the cabinet building hobby, those who see it as art and those who see it as science. At the moment the science side is shouting the loudest but it to-and-fros all the time. When the Arcscientists are winning, it usually means that a whole bunch of stuff that is fundamentally choice or preference gets sold as right or wrong, but it's up to the individual builder to decide how they take the sales pitch. Arcscientists win hands down on restoration project advice though 

And don't forget not everyone wants to learn by being told, they want to learn by doing and making the mistakes. No matter how much you want to tell them there's a truck coming, they are still going to try to cross the road 

[BadMouth]

Sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it 

The tone has changed here lately, but then it has a lot over the years too.  I think it's the most passive aggressive and sarcastic it has been in a long time though.

In my opinion, there have always been two interesting perspectives on the cabinet building hobby, those who see it as art and those who see it as science. At the moment the science side is shouting the loudest but it to-and-fros all the time. When the Arcscientists are winning, it usually means that a whole bunch of stuff that is fundamentally choice or preference gets sold as right or wrong, but it's up to the individual builder to decide how they take the sales pitch. Arcscientists win hands down on restoration project advice though 

And don't forget not everyone wants to learn by being told, they want to learn by doing and making the mistakes. No matter how much you want to tell them there's a truck coming, they are still going to try to cross the road 

Eh, I thought the opposite.  I thought people were insisting on plain 2 player, 6 button setups based solely on aesthetics.

A lot of it is the constant back and forth.  Drop your opinion and walk away.  PBJ gets away with PBJing because he drops a deuce and walks away.  He doesn't parley it into a multipage debate.

[pbj]

I generally refuse to host my pictures here because I don't trust that they won't end up in another one of saint's books without attribution.  At least if I've got it hosted elsewhere I feel like I haven't entirely handed over the rights to him.

[Token]

I generally refuse to host my pictures here because I don't trust that they won't end up in another one of saint's books without attribution.  At least if I've got it hosted elsewhere I feel like I haven't entirely handed over the rights to him.

Wait. That happened? 

I only have the first edition.

[saint]

I generally refuse to host my pictures here because I don't trust that they won't end up in another one of saint's books without attribution.  At least if I've got it hosted elsewhere I feel like I haven't entirely handed over the rights to him.

Dude... Not a single picture appeared in my book that I didn't have to obtain full legal permission for. My publisher wouldn't allow it. I had to send them a form and have them sign it granting permission.

This is some kind of stupid ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---.

Feel free to ask anyone whose pictures appeared in the books.

Also, there aren't likely to be anymore books.

Boggle.

[saint]

I generally refuse to host my pictures here because I don't trust that they won't end up in another one of saint's books without attribution.  At least if I've got it hosted elsewhere I feel like I haven't entirely handed over the rights to him.

Wait. That happened? 

No. Not that I'm aware of. Not that has ever been brought to my attention that I recall.

[pbj]

Perhaps "future book" may have been a better choice of words rather than "another one." 

[CheffoJeffo]

I'd rather you just didn't comment and force me to point out that YOU didn't need to comment in a negative mannor for no reason.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[yotsuya]

I'd rather you just didn't comment and force me to point out that YOU didn't need to comment in a negative mannor for no reason.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

EXACTLY.

[saint]

I'd rather you just didn't comment and force me to point out that YOU didn't need to comment in a negative mannor for no reason.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

It really warms the cockles of my heart to see Cheffo Jeffo posting

[CheffoJeffo]

Kinda afraid to ask about how cold those cockles were.

 

Glad the place hasn't burnt down, although I gather folks have been trying.

[ark_ader]

I really do not see what the big deal is here.  You see someone make a build and if you comment, it is your opinion.  Being downright naughty about it (which I am guilty of once or twice) should be taken as fair game.  You can always ignore comments as long as it is not slanderous.  Some of you guys make lovely cabinet builds, and I can attribute , that these skills are very difficult to obtain.  Most times you can only stare in wonder, what thoughts were going through their heads when they (and we know who they are) make objectionable builds.

Like others have said, it is the builders money that goes into these projects, but if we can make a constructive criticism of their progress, without igniting the entire community, then it must be said.

I read this entire thread.  And the old me would revel in it, but now I think the attitude is rather pointless and a waste of time.

Probably what you are thinking of this reply too!

[wp34]

Being downright naughty about it (which I am guilty of once or twice) should be taken as fair game.  You can always ignore comments as long as it is not slanderous.

Is it fair game for the person to respond in a naughty manner as well? 

[yotsuya]

Being downright naughty about it (which I am guilty of once or twice) should be taken as fair game.  You can always ignore comments as long as it is not slanderous.

Is it fair game for the person to respond in a naughty manner as well?

Heh.

l've always felt a person's reaction to feedback requests shows whether they were really looking for honest opinions or whether they were looking for validation for their choices.

[vwalbridge]

l've always felt a person's reaction to feedback requests shows whether they were really looking for honest opinions or whether they were looking for validation for their choices.

[wp34]

Being downright naughty about it (which I am guilty of once or twice) should be taken as fair game.  You can always ignore comments as long as it is not slanderous.

Is it fair game for the person to respond in a naughty manner as well?

Heh.

l've always felt a person's reaction to feedback requests shows whether they were really looking for honest opinions or whether they were looking for validation for their choices.

That's fair but I'm not talking about civil constructive criticism.  I'm asking about the naughty responses that Ark mentioned.  It seems to me that if feedback is given in a sarcastic manner one can expect the reaction to be the same.

[yotsuya]

Being downright naughty about it (which I am guilty of once or twice) should be taken as fair game.  You can always ignore comments as long as it is not slanderous.

Is it fair game for the person to respond in a naughty manner as well?

Heh.

l've always felt a person's reaction to feedback requests shows whether they were really looking for honest opinions or whether they were looking for validation for their choices.

That's fair but I'm not talking about civil constructive criticism.  I'm asking about the naughty responses that Ark mentioned.  It seems to me that if feedback is given in a sarcastic manner one can expect the reaction to be the same.

Oh. Well, I have more respect for posters who can roll with the punches than those who fly off the handle. Remember the great Kaneda Wars of the Fall of '13?

[wp34]

Being downright naughty about it (which I am guilty of once or twice) should be taken as fair game.  You can always ignore comments as long as it is not slanderous.

Is it fair game for the person to respond in a naughty manner as well?

Heh.

l've always felt a person's reaction to feedback requests shows whether they were really looking for honest opinions or whether they were looking for validation for their choices.

That's fair but I'm not talking about civil constructive criticism.  I'm asking about the naughty responses that Ark mentioned.  It seems to me that if feedback is given in a sarcastic manner one can expect the reaction to be the same.

Oh. Well, I have more respect for posters who can roll with the punches than those who fly off the handle. Remember the great Kaneda Wars of the Fall of '13?

Me too but I have tremendous respect for forum members who can give thoughtful civil feedback.

[yotsuya]

Being downright naughty about it (which I am guilty of once or twice) should be taken as fair game.  You can always ignore comments as long as it is not slanderous.

Is it fair game for the person to respond in a naughty manner as well?

Heh.

l've always felt a person's reaction to feedback requests shows whether they were really looking for honest opinions or whether they were looking for validation for their choices.

That's fair but I'm not talking about civil constructive criticism.  I'm asking about the naughty responses that Ark mentioned.  It seems to me that if feedback is given in a sarcastic manner one can expect the reaction to be the same.

Oh. Well, I have more respect for posters who can roll with the punches than those who fly off the handle. Remember the great Kaneda Wars of the Fall of '13?

Me too but I have tremendous respect for forum members who can give thoughtful civil feedback.

Agreed.

[BadMouth]

In the time I've been here there has been a shift in the Project Announcements threads from basically having a build log with requests and responses for things related to the build to banter and conversation, often veering far away from the build.  It annoyed me at first, but I got used to it. 
I blame Rick & Griff/Maximus.

It still annoys me when people post more pics of their own build in thread than the OP has of the build the thread is supposed to be about.

[yotsuya]

In the time I've been here there has been a shift in the Project Announcements threads from basically having a build log with requests and responses for things related to the build to banter and conversation, often veering far away from the build.  It annoyed me at first, but I got used to it. 
I blame Rick & Griff/Maximus.

It still annoys me when people post more pics of their own build in thread than the OP has of the build the thread is supposed to be about.

Good insight. I don't disagree with it. Especially the second point about people posting their own pictures in other people's threads. It's okay if they're showing someone how they did something if requested , but I've seen it used when people basically say "hey you stole my idea", which I find annoying.

[yotsuya]

Also, I really miss restorations. The first things that really attracted me to this site weren't the MAME builds, they were the restorations being done.

[harveybirdman]

The proper way to show examples in someone else's build thread is by link.

I love seeing restorations as well.

[Token]

Remember the great Kaneda Wars of the Fall of '13?

Yeah, that was educational. It was soon after I signed up here.

He was from NYC and was setting up a game-room. He wanted everyone to tell him how great he was for paying someone else to build his pedestal. It had angled joysticks, among other problems. He straight-up posted a "do you like this?" thread and then cried when everyone said no.

He also liked reminding everyone how rich he was.

...And then he did it all over again at KLOV. 

[yotsuya]

Remember the great Kaneda Wars of the Fall of '13?

Yeah, that was educational. It was soon after I signed up here.

He was from NYC and was setting up a game-room. He wanted everyone to tell him how great he was for paying someone else to build his pedestal. It had angled joysticks, among other problems. He straight-up posted a "do you like this?" thread and then cried when everyone said no.

He also liked reminding everyone how rich he was.

...And then he did it all over again at KLOV. 

Now he does it on Pinside.

[Token]

A summary of the good advice from this thread:

1. If you are going to ask for feedback, be ready to have your build's flaws and problems pointed out to you. Roll with the punches. Understand that the experts are not easily impressed and their standards are higher than yours.

2. If you are posting feedback, be civil.

3. Don't hot-link images. Post them in the stickied "NOT A PROJECT..." thread, and then use that url to post in your own thread. That way your images are here for posterity after your geocities site goes down.

4. Don't hijack other people's build threads with your own images. If you want to reference another project in someone else's build thread, post a hyperlink.

[CheffoJeffo]

Funny you mention Kaneda ... my post from his first grilling, coincidentally the last time I stopped in to post and said the same thing about change:

The more things change, the more they stay the same ...

Bragging on aircraft carrier. Check.
Angled sticks. Check.
Strange button spacing. Check.
Assorted folks poking fun. Check.
Assorted folks saying "don't be mean". Check.
"It isn't worth my time do it, or any research, because I has teh greatz job, unlike you looserz". Check.
Xiaou being a critical ass ("I worked in an arcade, yo") and saying that everybody else is mean. Check.
Ark hating everything and everybody. Check.

Whoa ... wait ... pbj is back!?!?!?

Not all of these apply here, but certainly Xiaou2 is doing the same old thing and it seems perhaps that Ark has changed. 

[yotsuya]

Nice list, Token.

I would like to add the following. Maybe these are just "Just Me" things, but since BadMouth pointed out something he noticed, I'd like to point out some things I've noticed.

1. Don't start a Project Announcement Thread unless you have something done. Seems like we've been getting PA threads started as placeholders before anything has even been planned.

2. Keep your questions in your build thread. Some guy recently made a build thread... then made a monitor thread for the same build that wasn't even a technical question... then a joystick thread regarding the same build... then a control panel thread regarding the same build.... keep it all in one place and it's easier to follow along.

and

3. Please do some research before you start asking the obvious questions. Ark-ader brought it up the other day in another thread - it seems like recently there has been an influx of people wanted to be led through the process, step by step, hand held the whole way. Part of the fun for me was figuring stuff out. I was scared to death of wiring my own panel as was **this close** to buying a Tankstick. I was scared to death of CRT monitor as was **this close** to keeping things LCD. But by researching first, then trying what I found in my research, then asking questions if I needed to, I've gained a skillset that has helped me in many more ways than arcade collecting.

[vwalbridge]

1. Don't start a Project Announcement Thread unless you have something done. Seems like we've been getting PA threads started as placeholders before anything has even been planned.

The only thing worse than this is creating an account just to post a final showcase picture of their build. Then never to be heard from again.

PS - And why do builders have time to write a wall of text about everything they accomplished this weekend just to also tell you they will post pictures of their progress when they have time. 

[pbj]

PS - And why do builders have time to write a wall of text about everything they accomplished this weekend just to also tell you they will post pictures of their progress when they have time. 

I'm flat out amazed how many regulars around here seem to be completely stumped at the process of taking and uploading a photo.

Makes you wonder how many of those projects and "weird cabinet I recently picked up" really exist.

[ark_ader]

PS - And why do builders have time to write a wall of text about everything they accomplished this weekend just to also tell you they will post pictures of their progress when they have time. 

I'm flat out amazed how many regulars around here seem to be completely stumped at the process of taking and uploading a photo.

Makes you wonder how many of those projects and "weird cabinet I recently picked up" really exist.

Guilty as charged.  I took pictures of my Stargate and will post them in whatever format is deemed appropriate.  Thanks for reminding me Jim.   

[Token]

Hey guise! I just found this weird arcade cabinet thing on the side of the road. It is in perfect condition but I need your help figuring out what it is.

It seems to be made from fiberglass? There is a metal plate showing it was made by some company I've never heard of... "Syzygy Engineering" The serial number is 9001.

I'll post a picture as soon as I can figure out how to sync my Polaroid with my MySpace account!

[yotsuya]

Hey guise! I just found this weird arcade cabinet thing on the side of the road. It is in perfect condition but I need your help figuring out what it is.

It seems to be made from fiberglass? There is a metal plate showing it was made by some company I've never heard of... "Syzygy Engineering" The serial number is 9001.

I'll post a picture as soon as I can figure out how to sync my Polaroid with my MySpace account!

Too soon, bro. Too soon.

[opt2not]

I'm flat out amazed how many regulars around here seem to be completely stumped at the process of taking and uploading a photo.

Makes you wonder how many of those projects and "weird cabinet I recently picked up" really exist.

And it's not like you need to use the --NOT A PROJECT - Images thread-- for uploading your pics. You can attach pictures straight to your post, which is a couple steps easier, even though not in a centralized location. 

[Token]

Too soon, bro. Too soon.

[yotsuya]

I'm flat out amazed how many regulars around here seem to be completely stumped at the process of taking and uploading a photo.

Makes you wonder how many of those projects and "weird cabinet I recently picked up" really exist.

And it's not like you need to use the --NOT A PROJECT - Images thread-- for uploading your pics. You can attach pictures straight to your post, which is a couple steps easier, even though not in a centralized location.

I find myself just uploading pictures via Tapatalk. It's much easier.

[pbj]

I find myself just uploading pictures via Tapatalk. It's much easier.

DID YOU KNOW THIS FORUM SUPPORTS

 TAPATALK?! DOWNLOAD IT HERE TODAY!!!!

[Malenko]

Also, I really miss restorations. The first things that really attracted me to this site weren't the MAME builds, they were the restorations being done.

Sorry bro, I didnt feel like chronicling the Virtua Cop, NBA Jam,  Offroad Thunder, or Cruisn USA restores I did. No one seemed to give a crap about the restore section. I restored them all in my rape dungeon :/

[scoodidabop]

Also, I really miss restorations. The first things that really attracted me to this site weren't the MAME builds, they were the restorations being done.

Sorry bro, I didnt feel like chronicling the Virtua Cop, NBA Jam,  Offroad Thunder, or Cruisn USA restores I did. No one seemed to give a crap about the restore section. I restored them all in my rape dungeon :/

Restorations are the best. Love seeing those - even if there is a rape dungeon involved.

[Malenko]

Restorations are the best. Love seeing those - even if there is a rape dungeon involved.

I almost dont want to finish the drywall now and get a neon sign made up "Rape Dungeon Arcade"

heres the LCD install, and the marquee change

[ark_ader]

I'm confused.  Is Malenko here or not? 

[yotsuya]

I'm confused.  Is Malenko here or not? 

We convinced him to stay.

[Malenko]

for now. Im really just here to win round 2 of the NFL pick

[DudeRegular]

How do you like the lcd in the racer cab? I may end up down that road on one of mine. It is still a bit down the queue though.

[Malenko]

LCDs work just fine in racing cabs. I have a 28" LCD in my faster than speed cab:
This is the 28" LCD vs 27" CRT:


and installed:


http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,141857.msg1468218.html