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Author Topic: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input  (Read 1799 times)

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blacketj

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Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« on: August 27, 2015, 12:20:32 am »
I am messing around with a U360 with the rotary joystick upgrade. If you are not familiar, this is an optical rotary solution. I've been testing with Ikari Warriors and Heavy Barrel.

After turning down the sensitivity to 1 in the MAME analog settings, the games work fairly well. But I'm noticing a problem when twisting the character.  Every so often the character skips a position. After I notice the skip, even just slowly twisting back and forth very gently the same position is always skipped. If I spin the character all the way around and back to the same position, then it will usually work fine. But at some point the same issue will occur on another random position.

I don't think it is a problem specific to the U360s because after finding one of these error cases I switched the input to my mouse. The same issue could be reproduced.

I'm running MAME 161 on Windows 10.

Has anyone else seen this issue while using optical input for these games? Is there a setting in mame or windows that might help with this?

2600

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2015, 08:26:27 am »
IIRC, it is a problem in MAME.  If you do a search here Derrick Renaud (sp?) fixed it once, then it got unfixed.  You could try submitting a bug to mametesters to see what's going on if it isn't already reported.

lamprey

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2015, 12:13:38 pm »
The U360 Rotary just doesn't work well for 12-position rotary games. The simple act of moving the joystick causes rotation to the optical rotary part. So, you get rotary movement just about every time you move the joystick.

There may well be a bug in mame too as 2600 noted.

2600

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2015, 09:11:20 am »
The U360 Rotary just doesn't work well for 12-position rotary games. The simple act of moving the joystick causes rotation to the optical rotary part. So, you get rotary movement just about every time you move the joystick.


Yeah, that's a different issue, but only because the encoder resolution is too high.  We just don't need Arkanoid level sensitivity on a Joystick.  I asked Ultimarc if they could do 1x encoding instead of 4x to dial down the sensitivity, but Andy said he was busy.   I'll probably try to add an avr in between the encoder and the U360 PCB  to dial it down myself.

The other bug the OP asked about above is different.

BadMouth

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2015, 09:37:42 am »
If you don't have a trackball or anything else to get screwed up, it may help disable multimouse in MAME and the lower the mouse sensitivity in Windows.

I'm glad this came up, as I still want to add rotation to my joysticks at some point.
I tried to make my own rotary stick using the cheap $3 12-step encoders from sparkfun.
The resolution was so low, MAME wouldn't even detect it on some of the games.  It did work on some games, but even then it would miss a step here and there.
I hooked up a 900 count encoder (too big to use on joysticks) to the same interface and MAME detected it without issue.

The Ultimarc one is 1200 count.
The DIY one I remember seeing on BYOAC used a 360 count encoder.


EvilNuff

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2015, 10:54:30 am »
Hmm this is disappointing.  I was literally just about to pull the trigger on two u360s with rotary specifically for Ikari games.  How bad are they for the rotary Ikari style games?  Are they still playable or is it "just don't bother" level?

actionless

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2015, 11:06:05 am »
Id like to know too as I actually have just pulled the trigger on two!!  :-\

lamprey

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2015, 11:28:26 am »
Well playable is relative, but I have 4 U360's (2 with rotary support) sitting in a box unused and I've kept my 49-way rotary's in place, if that's any indication.

blacketj

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2015, 11:32:22 am »
If you don't have a trackball or anything else to get screwed up, it may help disable multimouse in MAME and the lower the mouse sensitivity in Windows.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I don't want to turn multiple mouse support off, because if I'm going to use these, then I want two player. I will also have a trackball. I tried messing with the mouse sensitivity in Windows, but that had no effect, probably because MAME is using raw input.

Hmm this is disappointing.  I was literally just about to pull the trigger on two u360s with rotary specifically for Ikari games.  How bad are they for the rotary Ikari style games?  Are they still playable or is it "just don't bother" level?

Well, I bought them specifically for Ikari type games.  And I have decided that it isn't worth it to me. Hopefully I can return them for a refund, otherwise I'll be back to try and sell them cheap(ish) to anyone that wants to try them out.

Here is my list of reasons I'm not going to bother with the mod.

1. There does seem to be a bug in MAME with optical support for these games, because I verified it wasn't just an issue with the U360s. And I'm not too interested in building around something that may or may not get fixed any time soon.

2. After installing the mod, even with the analog input sensitivity all the way down in the game settings, joystick movement in two of the four directions does cause the character to twist one position.

3. The mod does add a noticeable change to the feel of the joystick when using two of the four direction.  Basically it is trying to twist, but there is friction.  So you feel it twist and you feel the resistance as you move the joystick, or you give to the resistance the joysticks path is altered slightly.  Either way I find it annoying.

4. The mod makes the length of the joystick housing longer.  I didn't take any measurements before removing the mod, but it is pretty significant.  I'm attempting to build a control panel where the thickness of the panel is a major consideration.  Before the mod, the Ultimarc trackball would have been the largest thing to fit, but after the mod the joysticks would have been the largest pieces, adding more thickness.

I have really fond memories of playing Ikari Warrios and would love to be able to play it and others like it. And I could probably make a concession on any one of the issues above, possibly two, but all four add up to a no go for me.  Maybe I'll build a dedicated 12-posistion joystick panel in the future.

lamprey

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2015, 11:45:58 am »
If you don't have a trackball or anything else to get screwed up, it may help disable multimouse in MAME and the lower the mouse sensitivity in Windows.
As far as I can tell changing the Mouse sensitivity in Windows has no affect on controls in MAME.

BadMouth

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2015, 11:49:35 am »
If you don't have a trackball or anything else to get screwed up, it may help disable multimouse in MAME and the lower the mouse sensitivity in Windows.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I don't want to turn multiple mouse support off, because if I'm going to use these, then I want two player. I will also have a trackball. I tried messing with the mouse sensitivity in Windows, but that had no effect, probably because MAME is using raw input.

Yup, turning on multimouse is what enables raw input.  Otherwise, MAME uses the system mouse which the windows settings do affect.
(at least in the versions of MAME I've done this in 130's-140's)
You could make an individual ini file for these games with multimouse disabled, but if someone moves the trackball while playing ikari warriors your character will spin.  :P

blacketj

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2015, 12:01:49 pm »
If you don't have a trackball or anything else to get screwed up, it may help disable multimouse in MAME and the lower the mouse sensitivity in Windows.

Thanks for the suggestions.  I don't want to turn multiple mouse support off, because if I'm going to use these, then I want two player. I will also have a trackball. I tried messing with the mouse sensitivity in Windows, but that had no effect, probably because MAME is using raw input.

Yup, turning on multimouse is what enables raw input.  Otherwise, MAME uses the system mouse which the windows settings do affect.
(at least in the versions of MAME I've done this in 130's-140's)
You could make an individual ini file for these games with multimouse disabled, but if someone moves the trackball while playing ikari warriors your character will spin.  :P

Even if you aren't worried about the trackball, you would still need multimouse enabled to play two player. This is because both sticks change the X axis of the mouse. I don't think there is currently any way to change one of them to use the Y axis.

2600

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2015, 12:18:50 pm »

This is because both sticks change the X axis of the mouse. I don't think there is currently any way to change one of them to use the Y axis.

Yeah, Andy said he'd release a version of firmware with the Y axis as well, but I'm not sure if any firmware has been publicly released.

Except for the encoder resolution none of the issues you stated have bothered or noticed by me and the MAME bug is fixable.  The Encoder Resolution could probably be patched in for MAME as well, but I haven't taken a look at it.   Personally, I just wanted the optical rotation for Discs of Tron so the Y axis thing isn't really needed for me either, but I totally see that being a required feature.

lamprey

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2015, 01:51:09 pm »
I'd kill (not literally) for a 12-way rotary option for the U360s. *cough* Andy do it! *cough* I did the 49-way rotary "hack" and it works, but I like the U360 as joysticks better than the 49-way joysticks. I guess another option is to build a dedicated rotary machine.. :)

EvilNuff

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2015, 02:23:09 pm »
This discussion has me back in the mindset of a swap-able or dedicated machine/CP for the rotary.  Darn, I was really hoping the rotary u360 option would play Ikari well.

BadMouth

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2015, 02:59:14 pm »
This thread has renewed my interest in doing a DIY solution.

Just ordered two of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-ALPS-1-Wafer-12-Position-cycling-Rotary-Switch-Made-in-JAPAN-/161787394159?hash=item25ab47b86f

I already have extended JLF shafts for the purpose of doing a rotary hack, but haven't wanted to fork over the money for expensive optical encoders.
I kind of liked the feel of the detents on the cheap sparkfun encoder that was too low res to work.
Hopefully these switches have a similar feel and not a harsh snap to each position.
...cheap enough to try anyway.

I think I have a diy rotary test thread somewhere.  Will post there when I learn something.
(coming from Taiwan, so will probably take a few weeks to a month)

lamprey

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2015, 03:41:20 pm »
This thread has renewed my interest in doing a DIY solution.

Just ordered two of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-ALPS-1-Wafer-12-Position-cycling-Rotary-Switch-Made-in-JAPAN-/161787394159?hash=item25ab47b86f

I already have extended JLF shafts for the purpose of doing a rotary hack, but haven't wanted to fork over the money for expensive optical encoders.
I kind of liked the feel of the detents on the cheap sparkfun encoder that was too low res to work.
Hopefully these switches have a similar feel and not a harsh snap to each position.
...cheap enough to try anyway.

I think I have a diy rotary test thread somewhere.  Will post there when I learn something.
(coming from Taiwan, so will probably take a few weeks to a month)
Aa I mentioned I did the 49-way Rotary Hack, which might work better for some people interested 12-way rotary games:
http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/49-way.html

I also briefly tried adding a 12-way rotary switch to the U360 Optical Rotary (to prevent it from rotating freely) using some of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MJWTN2

They have the feel of the Happ 12-way rotary, but didn't really work out for me in my attempt to hack the U360.

2600

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2015, 02:00:44 pm »
Aa I mentioned I did the 49-way Rotary Hack, which might work better for some people interested 12-way rotary games:
http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/49-way.html

I also briefly tried adding a 12-way rotary switch to the U360 Optical Rotary (to prevent it from rotating freely) using some of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MJWTN2

They have the feel of the Happ 12-way rotary, but didn't really work out for me in my attempt to hack the U360.

I added an optical rotary mod to my Perfect 360's a long time ago.  They were really nice and the optical rotary part was excellent, but the joysticks didn't have the features of the U360.  I had the 49way sticks, but really didn't like them in general so removed them rather quickly.

lamprey

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2015, 01:06:16 pm »
Aa I mentioned I did the 49-way Rotary Hack, which might work better for some people interested 12-way rotary games:
http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/49-way.html

I also briefly tried adding a 12-way rotary switch to the U360 Optical Rotary (to prevent it from rotating freely) using some of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MJWTN2

They have the feel of the Happ 12-way rotary, but didn't really work out for me in my attempt to hack the U360.

I added an optical rotary mod to my Perfect 360's a long time ago.  They were really nice and the optical rotary part was excellent, but the joysticks didn't have the features of the U360.  I had the 49way sticks, but really didn't like them in general so removed them rather quickly.
Yeah. Unfortunately, the 49-ways don't have the best feel to them. That's why I'd love a 12-way rotary option for the U360. But, until then.... :)

2600

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2015, 01:16:19 pm »
Aa I mentioned I did the 49-way Rotary Hack, which might work better for some people interested 12-way rotary games:
http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/49-way.html

I also briefly tried adding a 12-way rotary switch to the U360 Optical Rotary (to prevent it from rotating freely) using some of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MJWTN2

They have the feel of the Happ 12-way rotary, but didn't really work out for me in my attempt to hack the U360.

I added an optical rotary mod to my Perfect 360's a long time ago.  They were really nice and the optical rotary part was excellent, but the joysticks didn't have the features of the U360.  I had the 49way sticks, but really didn't like them in general so removed them rather quickly.
Yeah. Unfortunately, the 49-ways don't have the best feel to them. That's why I'd love a 12-way rotary option for the U360. But, until then.... :)

Honestly, optical is a much better solution.  The resolution just needs to be lower.

Dyltone

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2015, 11:20:33 pm »
Any update on this thread? Sounded like some promising ideas a few months back.

Thanks in advance!

Xiaou2

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2015, 02:19:53 am »
Aa I mentioned I did the 49-way Rotary Hack, which might work better for some people interested 12-way rotary games:
http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/49-way.html

I also briefly tried adding a 12-way rotary switch to the U360 Optical Rotary (to prevent it from rotating freely) using some of these:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MJWTN2

They have the feel of the Happ 12-way rotary, but didn't really work out for me in my attempt to hack the U360.

I added an optical rotary mod to my Perfect 360's a long time ago.  They were really nice and the optical rotary part was excellent, but the joysticks didn't have the features of the U360.  I had the 49way sticks, but really didn't like them in general so removed them rather quickly.
Yeah. Unfortunately, the 49-ways don't have the best feel to them. That's why I'd love a 12-way rotary option for the U360. But, until then.... :)

Honestly, optical is a much better solution.  The resolution just needs to be lower.

 Optical might be easier... but its not the best solution for every game.

 The mechanical clicking stops, make it easier to feel and know exactly what angle you are aiming at.

 With an optical rotary... if you try to play a game that used mechanical rotaries.. you wont have the exact angle.. and during gameplay,
it could easily get even more out of sync.   Not to mention,  not having that definitive locking snap.


 An Alternative solution,  would be to make a Mechanical Optical device.   Much like the Logitec free-wheel mouse.   The trackwheel on the mouse can be set to free-spin for ultra fast scrolling ... or have stopping clicks.. for a more tactile feel, and then its less likely to accidentally scroll when you do not want that.


 Of course... then you have to choose what stick to apply it to.   Every stick has its positives and negatives.   There is really no such thing as the perfect  "Everything"  stick / controller.

 Some of the older rotaries used leaf switch joysticks.. and leaf sticks tend to feel smoother and less fatiguing.   However, they are not always as accurate as microswitch based sticks.. so fighting games would not be a good option for leafs.    On the other hand... even the Microswitch based rotaries...   um... I dont think they would be all that great for fighters either.      The Happs Comps are far superior for that kind of play.

BadMouth

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2015, 08:51:00 am »
Any update on this thread? Sounded like some promising ideas a few months back.

Thanks in advance!

I received the ALPS 1-Wafer 12-Position cycling rotary switch that I linked to earlier and attached it to the bottom of a custom sanwa JLF shaft using a coupler (just the loose shaft and balltop, not a full joystick).
The amount of pressure required to change position and the feel of the indents are very good in my opinion.  ;D
Unfortunately the whole apparatus is too long to fit in my CP the way it is currently designed and I'm busy with other projects so I have not wired it up, built the mechanism to keep it oriented, or played a game with it.

+1 on having mechanical indents that you can feel.  I built a rotary setup before using an optical encoder and it just didn't feel right IMO.
It's easier to keep your guy locked firing in the chosen direction when there is a little bit of resistance preventing rotation.
Of course the optical encoder with no indents is better for spinner or driving games.  Always a trade-off.
 
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 08:56:36 am by BadMouth »

DarthMarino

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2017, 07:38:44 pm »
FYI, the rotary control skipping position issue has been fixed in MAME 0.191.

AndyWarne

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2017, 04:09:31 am »

Allied to this subject, the latest firmware for the U360s has logic for preventing rotation of the rotary upgrade encoder when the stick is being moved.

Any users of this I can send firmware on request:

andy@ultimarc.com

haynor666

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2017, 06:46:43 am »
Interested, sending mail.

haynor666

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Re: Ikari Warriors and Optical Rotary Input
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2017, 01:26:33 pm »
Finally update firmware. Anybody did this as well? Any problems, feedback ?

  
 

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