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Author Topic: Best Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?  (Read 11286 times)

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Dan Efran

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Best Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« on: April 22, 2015, 10:58:09 pm »
So I'm building this Frankentroller - project thread http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,144804.0.html - and it's almost time to glue the plywood bottom onto the hinges. I don't have room for screws (alas) so I need a really strong glue bond.



I've got some Gorilla Glue but I've heard mixed reviews of that, and it sounds like a pain to work with. This'll be an awkward join to clamp well. I wonder if I'd be better off with some kind of epoxy? JB Weld? Something else that I haven't thought of?

I'm sure this topic has been discussed a billion times, but I'd sure appreciate any (experience-based) advice on gluing metal to plywood. (EDIT: As in, "which glue is best for this tough job?", not "is it a good idea to glue hinges instead of screwing them to something?" It's really not a great design, but sometimes we have to glue things to things.)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 12:39:12 pm by Dan Efran »

Le Chuck

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2015, 08:50:20 am »
Yeah, it actually hasn't been discussed all that much because it's not a terribly good way of doing things.  Why don't you have room for screws?  You'd get a secure bond capable of withstanding regular use by gluing more wood to the interior to build out room for hings and then screwing them in.  Wood to wood = a bond stronger than wood.  Wood to metal = pending failure.  Do you have room for a smaller hinge like a piano hinge?

Dan Efran

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2015, 10:36:00 am »
Yeah, I get that. I agree with you, screws would be better.

Indeed, this is the only join in this project that doesn't use screws exclusively.

But I can't have screw heads on the exterior, because I'll be putting the box on my lap sometimes, and I don't want it chewing up my pants. I'd prefer to, as you suggest, put an extra strip of wood in there for the hinge to attach to.

But really, there isn't room.

The hinge axis needs to be right at the edge of the plywood and near the outside edge of the box's thick back wall. Putting more wood under the hinge would mess up the geometry. A piano hinge wouldn't help because it still needs to fit between the floor and the back wall, with no room for extra wood. Putting a support block just forward of the back wall is more plausible, but there's controls and wires and stuff in the way, so it wouldn't be big enough for much strength. Also, I'd need hinges configured like this:



If I had hinges like that, I'd totally be using those, with screws and a support block. That would be the best answer. Then I wouldn't be here asking this question. But those things are expensive, when you can even find them; I don't have any.

So, knowing full well it's not ideal, I'm going to be using glue. Thus, I'd now like to choose the best glue for a bad situation, and I'm asking for help.

Now, with all due respect, you've just done that annoying Internet thing of second-guessing the premise of my question instead of answering it.

It's my fault, really - it is a weird question; I should have made it clear that I know what I'm getting into. And it is worth being very clear, for those who might come across this discussion in the future, out of context: Gluing metal hinges to plywood, rather than screwing them to wood glued to the plywood, is a bad idea. Le Chuck is right to say, "don't do that".

But I've considered many other options and none of them will work in this project. So, I'm forced to pursue this relatively inadvisable approach.

So, let's try this again.

I unfortunately need to glue these metal hinges to this thin plywood, alas, alas. What glue shall I try for best results?
« Last Edit: April 23, 2015, 11:01:31 am by Dan Efran »

Dan Efran

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2015, 11:40:31 am »
Now I'm thinking maybe E-6000. That's supposed to be real strong, and I already have some....

Le Chuck

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2015, 11:45:34 am »
Dude, don't get spiffy at me because you worked your way into a design flaw.  Just go grab some of the strongest two part epoxy you can find, make sure you score both surfaces to provide latch points, and see if it holds up. 

I thought when you said you'd appreciate experience based advice that you'd appreciate the voice of experience trying to steer you away from what experience dictates is a poor decision.

Best of luck on your build.   

yotsuya

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2015, 11:54:29 am »
Just make sure you have plenty of glue handy, because you're going to need it every time that hinge comes apart... will it be the small strips of plywood ripping off? The lack of a pourous surface on the hinge with nothing for the glue to grip to?

There's a very good reason why he's trying to steer you away from what you want to do.  :dunno

Personally, I'd use flat-headed screws intended for that purpose, maybe even countersunk, and I'd glue felt or something over it if you're concerned about it messing up your pants.
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Dan Efran

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2015, 01:18:44 pm »
Dude, don't get spiffy at me because you worked your way into a design flaw.  Just go grab some of the strongest two part epoxy you can find, make sure you score both surfaces to provide latch points, and see if it holds up. 

I thought when you said you'd appreciate experience based advice that you'd appreciate the voice of experience trying to steer you away from what experience dictates is a poor decision.

Best of luck on your build.   

I'm sorry for sounding impatient, but you did reply only to question my plans (of which I know the myriad details and you don't) without deigning to answer my actual question. So I have to come back and explain that I'm not just being foolish for no reason, and ask again. Hence, impatient.  :dunno

But I already said, your advice is good as far as it goes, and it was my own fault for not pre-agreeing with your totally valid point so we could get past that right away. Careless of me; I had meant for my original post to make clear that I know I'm compromising. And it's certainly my own design flaw I'm working around - there are many odd compromises in this project, unavoidably. (It's a one-off built largely from leftovers.) Some of the compromises are indeed disappointing, from an engineering standpoint.

But I'm really just not looking to redesign at this point, even if that's objectively the "correct" advice. So thank you for actually discussing a glue this time.  ;) That's what I really need now, adhesives talk.

No hard feelings.  :cheers:

There's a very good reason why he's trying to steer you away from what you want to do.  :dunno

Yeah, I said I agree. I'd probably try to steer someone away from this plan too. ...But I'd also go ahead and answer the question posed. Again, I should have made clear at the outset: I already know this is not the preferred approach.

Quote
will it be the small strips of plywood ripping off? The lack of a pourous surface on the hinge with nothing for the glue to grip to?

Yeah, that's why I need something that can grab metal well. I can scratch it up but that won't make it porous. (Something like a thick epoxy might grab mechanically at the screw holes themselves, now that I think about it.)

Quote
Personally, I'd use flat-headed screws intended for that purpose, maybe even countersunk, and I'd glue felt or something over it if you're concerned about it messing up your pants.


I hear you, but that's another plan I've already rejected.

I'm not good enough at countersinking to be sure of getting it right in 1/4" material (to support hinges!); I don't like felt; and...well, I'm just not putting any holes in this plywood. It would be much better to go with the totally internal support-block approach (mentioned earlier), but I haven't got the space.

So if you had to do this, you'd regret the fact - me too - but what glue would you try?


yotsuya

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2015, 01:20:46 pm »
Maybe the non-expanding Gorilla Glue?
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Dan Efran

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2015, 01:48:35 pm »
Maybe the non-expanding Gorilla Glue?

Interesting!

The more I read about the regular expanding Gorilla, the more it sounds like a terrible choice. Apparently if you don't get the clamping just right, it doesn't work well at all. Non-expanding would presumably solve that, but allegedly Gorilla is not unlike spray foam insulation in chemistry. That stuff sticks to anything and everything  :-[ but it isn't super strong. I'm skeptical.

I'm about out of time to decide.  :-\

I think I'm going to try E-6000. I have it handy. It has a good working time. It is claimed to be very strong and a bit flexible. If it doesn't hold, it should at least leave a relatively thin layer to remove, so I can try something else easily.

Thanks for the advice. I'll let you know how it works out.

And once again, kids watching at home: don't try this. Screw your wood together, responsibly, like civilized people.  :afro:

Main project thread is here - http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,144804.0.html

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2015, 03:45:25 pm »
Ahem...GORILLA GLUE!
Yeah it's "butcher boy"! But when you are in a bind where screws and other applications just will not get the job done, GG will work.
Key is to clamp the bleep outta the joined area 24 hours. Then scrape off the excess. GG is strong, very, very strong. I have to take a hammer to stuff I want to un-Gorilla Glue!
Screws will always be a more permanent solution but I keep GG handy when I'm in a bind like this. Good luck!

eds1275

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2015, 05:19:35 pm »
I looked through the project thread and couldn't really tell what the hinges were for. If it's just for the bottom, my advice is some industrial velcro. It's cheap, and it holds extremely well to wood, metal, even, and uneven surfaces. I recently used it on some carpet to stick to my washing/drying machines (little rugs on top, the cats like to sit there in the sun and they appreciate the comfort and I appreciate covering the horrible gouges they created in the paint getting up there)

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2015, 06:21:31 pm »
I looked through the project thread and couldn't really tell what the hinges were for. If it's just for the bottom, my advice is some industrial velcro.

Yeah, the hinges hold the bottom on, and let me open it for servicing. The project thread hasn't really gone into much detail on that yet.

The plan is for the box - with all the guts attached - to hinge up away from the box floor, which is the plywood in question and little else. Rarely will the hinges need to support the whole thing alone, but they'll see significant stresses at times.

You're suggesting velcro in place of the hinges? Like, no hinges at all, just velcro? Very interesting.

I know that industrial velcro is strong stuff. Hmm, which implies that the adhesive they use is pretty good. I wonder if I should be considering some kind of industrial-strength double-sided tape. Like carpet tape or something. I'm a little afraid of that stuff, frankly. Some kinds are very strong.

I should at least consider velcro for the other edge of the plywood, across from the hinges. I'd been thinking about some kind of pad there to keep the lid from rattling when closed. Velcro might be excellent for that - even household grade - and would also keep it from pulling on the lock hasp unnecessarily. Yet a little tug would open it. Good idea.

Looking back over the responses here, Le Chuck did come through with an excellent tip:

make sure you score both surfaces to provide latch points

I'd been planning to rough up the surfaces some, like with sandpaper, but actually scoring them, rather deeply, sounds like a better idea. Macroscopic scratches for the glue to grab, not just micro-.

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2015, 06:25:07 am »
Best all around adhesive for gluing dissimilar materials I have ever used http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=84...I always have a tube kicking around.

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2015, 10:15:49 am »
Best all around adhesive for gluing dissimilar materials I have ever used http://www.lepageproducts.com/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=84...I always have a tube kicking around.

That sounds promising.

(In case that unclear link goes stale someday, Typefighter is recommending LePage PL Premium construction adhesive.)

I haven't used construction adhesives much, but I've heard they can be quite strong on wood and metal. This one apparently comes in a convenient tube, not just in caulk cartridges, which is nice.

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2015, 11:03:23 am »
I still don't understand why you need to glue it. However, Can you use some sort of flush mount bolt (like a flat-head wood screw) and put that in from the bottom, flush to outside, and secure it to the hinge with a nut (and washer)?

Dan Efran

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Re: Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2015, 12:18:08 pm »
I still don't understand why you need to glue it. However, Can you use some sort of flush mount bolt (like a flat-head wood screw) and put that in from the bottom, flush to outside, and secure it to the hinge with a nut (and washer)?

In theory, that might work, but in 1/4" thick plywood, I don't think countersunk holes will leave much material to grip. And I don't want any fasteners showing on the exterior. At all.

EDIT: No, there wouldn't be room for a nut when the hinge closes flat on itself. That suggestion would be good for someone, but doesn't apply here.

Seriously, my design phase ended a month ago. I understand why I need to glue it. These non-glue suggestions are perfectly valid approaches, but I'm just not interested. I can see the screw holes on that hinge; if I was willing to use screws I wouldn't be asking about glue.

If you have had success gluing metal to wood or plywood, I'm interested in hearing about that.

Looks like I'll be trying either E6000 or JB Quik Weld.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 12:31:06 pm by Dan Efran »

Dan Efran

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Re: Best Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2015, 12:41:16 pm »
I've edited the title of this thread and the initial post to try to reduce the continued confusion about the nature of my question. I apparently worded it badly in the first place. I'm looking for stellar adhesives, not mechanical design advice.

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Re: Best Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2015, 12:44:29 pm »
Looks like I'll be trying either E6000 or JB Quik Weld.

Don't get JB kwik. It isn't nearly as strong as original JB weld. You just have to make sure to let JB weld Cure for 1 day minimum. (24 hours)

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Re: Best Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2015, 01:44:54 pm »
Looks like I'll be trying either E6000 or JB Quik Weld.

Don't get JB kwik. It isn't nearly as strong as original JB weld. You just have to make sure to let JB weld Cure for 1 day minimum. (24 hours)

Oh. Good to know!

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Re: Best Glue for Metal-to-Plywood?
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2015, 10:17:27 am »
may i suggest Northeast building supply, they have an amazing and lively site so i hope this might come in handy for you since everyone of us is now online  http://www.nbslumber.com/products/fasteners-adhesives/Nbs has a range of adhesives that you can choose from  for all your "glueing" needs ,

bye for now