Right to be forgotten

[Le Chuck]

Should users be able to zero out their post history?

After Pinball Jim we lost the "delete post" function IIRC.
Now with LT there are calls to stop modification of historic threads.

Support?  Not support?  What say you?


Opening this thread as an outlet for the LT thread. 

[johnrt]

This forum need a disclaimer when signing up. And disable the opportunity to edit posts older than xx days.

[Slippyblade]

I honestly have no idea what would lead someone to just "take their ball and go home" and delete everything on a public forum.  Especially one that relies on collaboration to the extent of BYOAC.  Then again, I've never really understood the "right to be forgotten".  Doesn't make any sense to me.

Not bagging on TJ for doing this, just stating my total confusion about doing so.

[Le Chuck]

I support the right to be forgotten.  I think it is important that people have the right to clean out their history on the internet and not have something good or bad follow them. 

Let's say I'm a gun enthusiast and I am a member of a online gun forum where I have posted all kinds of stuff that is pro gun.  Then there is a tragedy in my life related to the misuse of a firearm.  Maybe that causes all my opinions to change.  I have gone through a traumatic life changing experience. 

I think that justifies my right to zero out my posts and effectively forget that part of myself.  Perhaps the accident was due to my negligence and some of those posts are a painful reminder that cause me undue grief.  I think I have a right to have that not hang over my head and follow me around.  I think I have a right to get clear of it.  Afterall my online ID isn't my person - it's a representation of my person.  If my true person has changed why should that representation be made to stay and misrepresent my beliefs and interests. 

I don't want anybody to nuke their shiz but based on that scenario I would support the decision to do so.  Please note this example has nothing to do with LT.  To my knowledge LT did not lose a loved one to an arcade machine.   

[harveybirdman]

I'd just like to know what happened.... it took me months to figure out the PL1 Malenko thing....

Now Tully gone..... 

Clearly I spend too much time in just two forums.

[johnrt]

I'd just like to know what happened.... it took me months to figure out the PL1 Malenko thing....

There's a PL1 Malenko thing???

[horizon]

I think in general, your "right" is gone with public domain.  I dont understand it.  If your circumstances change (thinking politician here) and you switch stances on an issue important to you, then you need to defend why you no longer feel that way.  Its public knowledge, etc, unless you go through the ppropriate steps to protect yourself and your ideas.

[Le Chuck]

I think in general, your "right" is gone with public domain.  I dont understand it.  If your circumstances change (thinking politician here) and you switch stances on an issue important to you, then you need to defend why you no longer feel that way.  Its public knowledge, etc, unless you go through the ppropriate steps to protect yourself and your ideas.

There's legal standing for it in Europe and growing support in the US.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_be_forgotten

Politicians discuss things as a matter of public record.  They give up certain luxuries as a matter of the duty they attempt to fill.  They're regulated for a matter of our protection.  I don't support that level of scrutiny for the citizen.  LT doesn't have to answer to me.   

[Hoopz]

This hasn't happened that much here but enough times that it's become a thing now.  Every time, we ask what happened.  Luckily here, Yotsy had his email and they talked about it.

Not everybody lost the right to flush after PBJ.  I think it was pretty selective.  When Genesim got his ability to edit and delete his posts, he had no idea that it was just him.  It was actually pretty funny to follow.

Back on topic, Saint's guidance here is what's needed.  It's his forum so his opinion and rules are what matters.  I checked the user agreement and there's not much in there about this. 

[harveybirdman]

I'm struggling to understand the level of frustration I would have  to have to want to delete my content.

I guess if a build thread got post helled that might piss me off enough to do it, but its hard to imagine something like that happening.

[Generic Eric]

In space no one can hear you scream.  On the Internet, every nation & 3 letter org has a text copy, flac & mp3, and video of your deepest darkest secrets.

I'd rather not people disappear themselves.  What if Ben Franklin, or Albert Einstein had burned there homes & libraries?

[horizon]

So Im thinking about an unspecific situation where someone writes a paper that is anti-israel in college.  Then, <insert situation> happens, and they are pro-Israel.  The fact is that paper is out there, published or not, and record.

If you were to write an editorial for your high school paper, I dont think you have the right to have it redacted, removed, expunged, or otherwise deleted because your view point has changed. 

I would feel the same way if we were talking about someone who made terror or terrorist threats to a newsgroup 20 years ago, even if that person no longer believes it.

Your own blog, website, server, thats your stuff.  You start putting things out there, someone else's or a company's equipment, hosting, etc, its really not yours any more.

re: retroactive intellectual property - I agree, if the point is that youre trying to protect your intellectual property and/or its being used for an unintended use.  The SMB cab is a prime example.  If someone choose to clone it via CNC, LT would, and SHOULD, do whatever it takes to protect his ideas/pictures/product from being produced in a situation that he never intended OR approved.  Likewise, if he decided to now mass-produce said cab, I feel Nintendo has every right to do whatever they need to protect their intellectual property, copyrights, and trademarks.

Im not sure I will ever be persuaded to agree with the right to forget movement, but I am definitely all for hearing how/why you feel so.

[wp34]

I can see a situation where someone makes a few posts in EE that are a little out of hand and it gets them in trouble IRL.  Our unique projects make us pretty easy to identify to our friends and family despite the clever usernames and avatars. A clean-slate might be in order in a case like that.  I'm not saying this happened with LT but I can imagine it happening very easily. 

While I prefer it wouldn't happen I support the right to be forgotten. 

[pbj]

 

[bfauska]

I think it's silly to think we really have the power to disappear and be totally forgotten, and acting as if we can hurts those who you've collaborated and communicated with in the past. Similar to the real life idea of an "expectation of privacy" the internet is a public street where everything you post can be seen by others and saved, you can't actually take it back. You can make it harder to find but if it's really important enough to wish it gone it's probably too late, someone somewhere has it.
I think it's within LT's rights to delete his stuff, I just think it's silly to expect that to actually stop whatever he's worried about happening to his intellectual property. Legally, having posted it here and having a record of the time and date that you had the ideas is actually probably better protection than trying to erase it. If someone steals it you've got the ability to show that it was your idea at x time.
It's a bummer that something has driven him (or would drive anyone) to jump ship in such a way and I hope it blows over but it's also a bummer to take your ideas and go home. All of our projects are a two way street, including the ones we just lost, and that means that part of the intellectual property is actually from the group, there were choices guided by everyone and the results should be left for the other contributors to reflect on and learn from.
LT, if you read this I hope that the presumably ---smurfy--- stuff going down for you right now passes and when it does you manage to come back, I've just returned after a long hiatus from this forum and your's was one of the most usefully contributing new voices around here. If you can't come back that's your call but it stings a little to think you didn't feel that some of your work belonged at least a little to the community in which it was bread, influenced, and supported.

[talkgeek]

I think LT's last post in the other thread eludes to his state of mind / demons he may be struggling with - and while it's terrible to think his work has been lost from the forum (and us) it maybe a process that is necessary for him to be able to cope / take the next forward - I just hope he doesn't regret it later.

as far as the ability to nuke your posts or not - that is down to the rules of the forum, and currently there aren't any.

When something like this happens, for those that have benefited from the learning's I think there is a responsibility to impart that in their contributions (maybe with references of thanks to the original source?) so it's not lost to new members

[Vigo]

I stated my opinion on the IP thread, but I will post here again:

I think that is a right, but shouldn't be automatically granted. A lot of my contributions are bigger than myself, an idea on top of someone's else's idea, with other ideas on top of them. I personally don't think I should just be able to remove a brick from that wall, because it is the foundation of something greater, and I am wrecking something that now that is part of the community.

At this moment, I am thinking that maybe there should be a lock on modifying posts over 180 days old, and the ability for a moderator to override or grant rights if the user has a compelling reason for it.

I do want to add to that a bit as well. I just want emphasize on that I do think it is a right. I also want to point out that the reasoning behind needing mod approval is just so that someone is there to help talk someone into a better solution and try to tie up some loose ends because there is material others rely on. Losing data had taken a number of hits here, which is why I believe Saint pushes us to host our images here.

[Rick]

I get that whole "collaboration" thinking, but really, nobody owns anybody else's content, nor do any of have the right to claim that this collaboration offers any security to the information being posted. If you learned something from someone, and advanced their work in some way,  great. If you then choose to remove that information so others cannot use it - regardless of whether it's for personal reasons, personal gain or whatever - I believe that's totally within your right. If you want to protect the information for future generations, then you need to take action and copy it off. Just be aware, if it becomes "protected" (ie trademarked or similar) then be prepared for people to try and protect that info.

[Generic Eric]

Engaging in a community is how a person is remembered. 

I think anonymity is important.  I also think that if you tried to maintain a separate identity from RL^(TM)  or more than 1, it might be problematic.

If you need to be anonymous, don't engage in society.

[Generic Eric]

I get that whole "collaboration" thinking, but really, nobody owns anybody else's content, nor do any of have the right to claim that this collaboration offers any security to the information being posted. If you learned something from someone, and advanced their work in some way,  great. If you then choose to remove that information so others cannot use it - regardless of whether it's for personal reasons, personal gain or whatever - I believe that's totally within your right. If you want to protect the information for future generations, then you need to take action and copy it off. Just be aware, if it becomes "protected" (ie trademarked or similar) then be prepared for people to try and protect that info.

This is why we aren't in space, haven't explored the deepest depths of the ocean and are still fighting over oil instead of doing more to harness the energy of the sun.

But seriously,  you can't come to a collaborative table share ideas, take ideas, profit from those same ideas, and be righteous.  It may or not be legal, but it's not morale and you can't act righteous about it.

[Le Chuck]

I get that whole "collaboration" thinking, but really, nobody owns anybody else's content, nor do any of have the right to claim that this collaboration offers any security to the information being posted. If you learned something from someone, and advanced their work in some way,  great. If you then choose to remove that information so others cannot use it - regardless of whether it's for personal reasons, personal gain or whatever - I believe that's totally within your right. If you want to protect the information for future generations, then you need to take action and copy it off. Just be aware, if it becomes "protected" (ie trademarked or similar) then be prepared for people to try and protect that info.

This is why we aren't in space, haven't explored the deepest depths of the ocean and are still fighting over oil instead of doing more to harness the energy of the sun.

[Vigo]

I'm miffed that LT took his ball and went home, but I am sure what he did was for the good of himself and his family. He is far more important as a person than a pedestal with green PVC pipes on it. 

All this stuff about not living in space or being a deep sea adventurer because of deleted posts is making my head hurt.

[Generic Eric]

All this stuff about not living in space or being a deep sea adventurer because of deleted posts is making my head hurt.

Not quite the messaging I intended.

[Vigo]

I might have been twisting words a little, but I couldn't resist.   

[yotsuya]

I'm going to add this, then I'm going to STFU...

Trust me when I say Louis didn't take his ball and go home. He didn't take down his stuff, only to go post it somewhere else. He took down all his arcade stuff because, quite frankly, it was taking over and he needed to just quit, and this was the best way that HE knows how to do it. He's not doing this to punish US, he's doing it because it's how HE has chosen to take control of the situation. He told me this has happened with other hobby sites, and it works for him.

He's told me explicitly that he doesn't care about IP (admittedly, that was my word because in describing his posts and pictures, I thought it was more concise and eloquent than "my ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---"). I know for a fact he's done design and art for other people, and he sent me the plans for "The Tully" cabaret, which I fully intend to build. I'm sure he's proud of that. But in order to walk away, he feels like he really need to GET AWAY- again, not to punish us, not to withhold his ideas, but to give himself a reason NOT to go back. I can respect that.

I'll end with this- we all love the Mario Pedestal. But think about the level of determination, commitment, and even obsession that you would need in order to manually carve the same pattern into each and every block over and over again, and then use a ball-point pen to color each and every block over and over again. How many of us would be willing to do that? That's where he was at, and that's why he decided enough was enough.

[Generic Eric]

We were supposed to be talking more about "The Right to be Forgotten," & less about a particular person.

We should be able to talk about this without mentioning a person.  It's an abstract idea worthy of conversation.  Even if we can't reach a consensus among us, people should have an opinion.  Because if you don't, others will decide for you.
/boxesofsoap

[eds1275]

It's the internet. I think it's annoying to see

or a blank post

and then read a bunch of stuff out of context. I don't think anyone uses their real name. If you want anonymity then keep your life out of it and stay on topic - as in arcade building and playing. I think nuking posts is just a headache. And then there's always a love-story follow up post....

So my opinion is that no, you shouldn't be able to delete your existence from the face of the forum. But if it happens it's no more than a mild inconvenience at best. It does take away from the hobby however when someone does a bunch of god work in some way or another and then it's gone. Hopefully by that time however enough people have copied and/or improved the method that the info is still around.

[Nephasth]

You have the right to post... You should have the right to delete your posts.
You have the right to create an account... You should have the right to delete your account.

I hate losing the valuable information, but nothing lasts forever.

[Generic Eric]

You have the right to post... You should have the right to delete your posts.
You have the right to create an account... You should have the right to delete your account.

I hate losing the valuable information, but nothing lasts forever.

You have to agree to terms when signing up.  No one has an explicit right to join a group.

[Nephasth]

So swap out the word "right" with "privilege". Same diff.

[Generic Eric]

So swap out the word "right" with "privilege". Same diff.

I think you have sufficiently reduced the whole discussion.

  If I go out tonight and make a fool of myself, there is no delete or rewind button. I can't demand people delete videos of me dancing.  I can, but no one is obligated to comply.

I'm all for anonymity, encryption  & privacy. I'm against being archived, monitored, solicited and tracked. 

If I can't give some amnesia, can I expect to delete my internet presence?

[Vigo]

If I go out tonight and make a fool of myself, there is no delete or rewind button. I can't demand people delete videos of me dancing.

If you are the one that posted the videos, yes you can. LT didn't delete other peoples posts, even if was about him. He only deleted his own.

If I can't give some amnesia, can I expect to delete my internet presence?

And we are free to remember anything he posted.

You have the right to post... You should have the right to delete your posts.
You have the right to create an account... You should have the right to delete your account.

I hate losing the valuable information, but nothing lasts forever.

You have to agree to terms when signing up.  No one has an explicit right to join a group.

Since you mentioned it - Here are the terms we agree to when signing up. It does nothing but put ownership of the posts on the the user.

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[Nephasth]

So swap out the word "right" with "privilege". Same diff.

I think you have sufficiently reduced the whole discussion.

  If I go out tonight and make a fool of myself, there is no delete or rewind button. I can't demand people delete videos of me dancing.  I can, but no one is obligated to comply.

I'm all for anonymity, encryption  & privacy. I'm against being archived, monitored, solicited and tracked. 

If I can't give some amnesia, can I expect to delete my internet presence?

The physical world and the cyber world don't play by the same rulebook...

[TopJimmyCooks]

So LT pulled a PBJ? 

[Nephasth]

So LT pulled a PBJ?

Essentially, yes. But he dropped by to provide an explanation, his circumstances are different.

[Admiral688]

The right to be forgotten is an EU concept. If it's existence is public due to your actions and under your control, then you should be able to remove your own material (post, story etc). It's game over once you ceed control to someone else, as they should be entitled to the right to remember. It's a stupid first world problem.  If you can't take the heat, then stay out of the kitchen.

[Well Fed Games]

On a practical level, I've learned from broken links and such that if someone posts something you might find useful in a current or future build, make a local copy of it. This is just another good reason to keep that in mind. My 2 cents- people should have the option to delete their stuff but it is a pretty lame move considering the collaborative atmosphere here. But I get that LT was in a bad headspace. If this forum can ever be useful to him again I hope he comes back, and if he lurks... hey man  for being part of our island of misfit arcade cabs.

[saint]

I am open to suggestions on any changes to make. I'll add a couple of things to the mix:

I have changed people's usernames before at their request when they've wanted to scrub their Internet presence. In that case the content remained, but the name no longer related.

I have modified or removed very old posts before when someone had a similar situation but no longer had access, again at their request. I was able to do so in a way that minimized the effect on the thread.

[pbj]

You have also put posts back on the forum that you were explicitly asked to leave deleted.

 

[saint]

I did, and after you asked me not to a second time I refrained. I'm of a mixed mind on this issue personally. (I also will not be restoring LT's posts unless he tells me it's OK to do so.)