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Author Topic: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?  (Read 3445 times)

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chris2922

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Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« on: October 25, 2014, 05:00:35 am »
Hey everyone, its been a while.

Last time I built a mame machine was about 8 years ago.  It was a custom MDF build with a PC monitor and I thought it worked really well.  But I decided I preferred the real thing.  It just isn't quite the same is it.

When I read about GroovyMame and the CRT Emudriver work I decided it was time for another project.  I've purchased some new hardware and would like some final advice before I put it all together.

I was all set to install the latest GroovyArcade ISO until I stumbled upon the thread about input lag and the implementation of frame_delay only found in the Windows build of GroovyMame.  Now i'm not sure what to do.  I want to do this right, or as best as I can, so if I break down my components i'm hoping some of you with more recent experience can give me some advice.

20" Hantarex polo monitor - 15khz.
Dell Optiplex 780:
**ATI Radeon x600 128MB
**Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 @ 3.00 GHz
**4 GB RAM  (2 x 2GB) DDR3 1066MHz
**160 GB Hard Drive
JPAC

So based on that spec do you think I should go for Windows XP 64, Windows 7 64 or GroovyArcade 64?

I've been messing around with this stuff for so many years now i'm not worried about the configuration side being difficult.  I would just like to get the best results in my cab.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2014, 05:06:44 am by chris2922 »

Calamity

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2014, 05:25:51 am »
With that hardware, use XP 64. The x600 is not supported under W7 by CRT Emudriver.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Sledge

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2014, 10:06:57 pm »
With that hardware, use XP 64. The x600 is not supported under W7 by CRT Emudriver.
Or get a better video card and an SSD, and then go to Win7 :)
But yes.. current hardware, might as well go with Xp x64

chris2922

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2014, 04:52:24 am »
Thanks for the replies. The dell came with a Radeon HD 3470 but because this isn't on the supported list for CRT Emudriver I picked up the X600 online for 5.

If I'd be better off getting something like an HD 4890 and moving to Windows 7 I'm happy to do it... but what for?

Posts I've read suggested the W7 drivers were still being tested and having problems and newer HD cards don't support low pixel clocks, so XP and an X600 seemed the better option.  Also I'm running a 15khz screen so will only be playing CGA resolution games.  Why would a better video card be useful when mame leans on the CPU so heavily?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 05:57:25 am by chris2922 »

cools

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2014, 07:28:28 am »
Your hardware is perfect for XP64, use that.
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

adder

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2014, 08:13:30 am »
*deleted by me, ignore  ;)*
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 08:33:08 am by jadder »
typed using my...

chris2922

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2014, 08:35:56 am »
It might work, but its not on the supported list so to be safe I opted for a card that's explicitly listed as supported.  I've had problems with 3rd party graphics drivers before and didn't want to risk getting an unstable build that blue screens (no offence meant i'm sure the drivers are very good  :) ).  Plus the HD 3470 has display port connections and no DVI or VGA.

I'm going to get on and install XP 64 and see how it goes.

twistedsymphony

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2014, 11:10:14 am »
I've got a low-profile HD 4350 in my setup and I'm very happy with it. pretty cheap too.

I'm running a DVI to VGA adapter cable even though it has a VGA port because you'll need to use the primary output port of the card.

lettuce

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 07:02:59 pm »
So taking what GPU you have out of the equation, what runs best Win XP or Win 7?

chris2922

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 02:53:30 am »
I think xp provided it doesn't get connected to the Internet. Without a connection to the net xp will continue to perform without slowing down for as long as you need it to.  This applies to windows 7 of course, but xp is a much lighter installation and runs on slower hardware.  Some folks complain about the configuration in xp but that's not about how well it runs.  Turning a few default services off like remote access and system restore and disabling windows update (no Internet, you don't need it) will help further.  Customising startup services with msconfig can have xp booting in 5 seconds on modest hardware (I know this because it is on my c2duo).

It's worth installing .net framework 3.5 but you can get this as a redistributable from Microsoft and put it on a USB.

As a mame box I don't see any advantage running w7 if you can run xp64 instead.  If you want to run PC games or other more modern emulators that may be a different story, but for Mame I reckon xp64.

twistedsymphony

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 09:19:45 am »
I run XP when I can... honestly unless you need Direct X 11 (and thus Win 7) for PCSX2, Dolphin and Demul then you're better off with XP IMO.

A lot of emulation software and the tools that help you out don't get updates all that often and as a result there are a lot of them that end up having compatibility issues on newer OSs...

Make up a list of pros and cons for each... I think you'll find that there's not much that Win 7 or 8 adds as a benefit when building a MAME cab.

maiki

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2017, 11:39:33 am »
I still cannot believe that even Mr. Calamity recommends Windows to run Groovy MAME. I admit I am from old school. All I say: Advance MAME was always recommended to be used in plain MS DOS or Linux to avoid timing problems with perfect VSYNC and related. So how come the Groovy MAME is recommended for Windows? People don't care about perfect timing anymore? No more kernel mode goodness? I am very confused by this.

Calamity

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2017, 12:52:27 pm »
Hi Mr. maiki,

Considering your insistence over the years on this specific topic, I'm not really sure if your concerns are genuine or this is just some sort of smart trolling, in which case I'll inform you we've had legendary trolls in this forum, who set the bar really high.

That said, and with regards to the DOS/Linux vs Windows issue, I'll make it clear that I'm from the old-school type too (e.g. check my ATOM-15 bios mode code).

If AdvanceMAME ever recommended Linux over Windows was not due to v-sync accuracy, but to the fact that AdvanceMAME could only program video hardware directly on the Linux OS* (and DOS). GroovyMAME can program video hardware directly on both Linux and Windows platforms (Radeon cards).

I share your concern about running on top of a multitasking non-real-time OS, but you need to understand that on this regard, nowadays Linux is not any better than Windows. 

As a matter of fact, actual measurements done by many members of this forum on different hardware systematically show that Linux has terrible input latency as compared to Windows, no matter how optimized the kernel is. Surprised? I was the first one surprised, but these are facts, we do real measurements, we not simply believe whatever ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow--- you find on the web.

As a note, you won't run on kernel mode either on Linux or Windows, unless you are a kernel module such as a driver. Linux is no lower-level than Windows, if you see what I mean.

I'd buy your DOS suggestion, honestly. If I could use DOS I'd be able to add super cool features to GM. But you simply cannot be serious about suggesting DOS in 2017, unless you want to rennounce to basic things like audio, etc.

So, if you want to run emulation on new hardware, you need Windows. I hate Windows too but Linux is not answer. Let be be clear: Linux is super cool for a lot of reasons, but not for the ones you suggest.

Finally, the idea behind GM is that with the proper hardware, you can bypass all the annoyances introduced by multitasking non-real-time operating systems, and achieve perfect timing. You clearly haven't seen it.


* AdvanceMAME had actually a driver for Windows NT but it's functionallity was more limited.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

donluca

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2017, 11:05:52 am »
HaikuOS is clearly the way :P https://www.haiku-os.org/

(I'm joking, of course)

Paradroid

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2017, 05:35:00 pm »
Considering your insistence over the years on this specific topic, I'm not really sure if your concerns are genuine or this is just some sort of smart trolling, in which case I'll inform you we've had legendary trolls in this forum, who set the bar really high.

Same guy who said we'd never get consumer TVs to reproduce the full range of video timings used by arcade games... glad we ignored that piece of advice.

In this hobby, perfection is a fine goal but being prepared to work with what you've got will allow you to actually enjoy the hobby.

Kinda like all these people getting wound-up about the future of CRTs: sure, long term we're screwed. But long term we're all dead and we lose the generation of gamers that grew of with CRTs anyway so who will really care? Plus, the upside of CRTs becoming instinct is that, right now, you can fill your basement with enough CRTs to see out your days for very little money.

The DOS thing is funny: seriously, who the hell is gonna provide that kind of hardware support these days? I remember that guys doing realtime audio software in the '90s had this utopian dream of a non-Windows OS optimized for real-time processing. Clearly that never happened... as people expect endless hardware support (e.g. people still ask about Nvidia even though GM has endless ATI options) and also want to check their email in between their pixel perfect, next frame response GM session.

Enough ranting... nice answer, Calamity. It serves as a good summary of why things are the way they are. :applaud:
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krick

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2017, 06:30:49 pm »
If I'd be better off getting something like an HD 4890 and moving to Windows 7 I'm happy to do it... but what for?

As others have said, your hardware is fine for XP x64 edition.

If you go that route, I highly recommend creating a custom XP install CD with SP2 slipstreamed in as well as 5eraph's latest post-SP2 Update Pack...
https://ryanvm.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6400

You might even want to slipstream in drivers for whatever hardware you have that isn't natively supported by XP (usually LAN and audio drivers).  It makes it much faster if you ever decide you want to blow everything away and re-install.


*IF* you decide to move to Windows 7, Radeon HD 5xxx series card or higher is recommended.  Calamity mentions some of the reasons here...
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,141855.msg1608462.html#msg1608462

I'm a proponent of the Radeon HD 7730 and 7750 models because they are low-power models that usually don't require the aux power cable.
Lower power = less heat inside an arcade cabinet.

maiki

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Re: Best way to run Groovymame 15khz?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 03:47:06 pm »
Thanks for the explanation.

  
 

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