BYOAC Talking Dead - Walking Dead Season 5

[Ginsu Victim]

I'm not sure I'll even care who it was by the time we get to October. THIS had immediate impact and changed the game:



Ending without ANYONE being on the receiving end of that graphic scene....meh...

I say ANYONE because had the death been as brutal as the comic, it would've carried the weight needed to really put Negan over as the number one a-hole.

[harveybirdman]

Exactly my point about Glenn's death being dishonored by this sideshow...

We're denied the gut punch mentally exhausting reaction as the moment happens, for what purpose? 

Kill him and get on with it for cripes sake.  Hell I'm sure that his "test death" earlier this season was to gauge audience reaction... So pathetic, nobody important has died in a long time and it takes away from the show.

[RandyT]

My money is on Abraham.

+1

[Howard_Casto]

Wait a second...

If the audience has anything to complain about it's Carol's radical 180 character turn.

So she is a bad-ass for nearly 6.5 seasons, then suddenly can't take it anymore for one episode and turns into a weakling?

THAT is the only dumb writing as far as I'm concerned. The rest of the writing thus far I'm A-OK with.

Nope... that's the best part of her character development.  She isn't turning into a weakling, she's turning back into a moral human being with a conscience.  It's quite evident from these last couple of shows that she's every bit a badass just like she always was.... she just isn't willing to be the resident serial killer anymore.  There is merely surviving and then there is living.... if you can't live with the choices you've made then death is a preferred alternative.  Better to be right and dead than wrong and alive.  Morgan learned this and the rest of the group needs to learn it pretty damn fast.  Thankfully that's what the conclusion of the next story arc is going to be about.

[BadMouth]

Negan was cool.  The ending was lame.  As was the ending of the previous episode. As was the mid-season cliffhanger.
Sweaty, losing his mind Rick is just annoying.  Pretty sure I made this same complaint in a previous season.

As far as Carol's flip.  It took place way too fast, over only a couple episodes which was ridiculous IMO.

[dkersten]

The real question is that if they deviate from source material is the resulting story going to be any good?

I mean look at Fear, they have a blank script.... and so far it's garbage comparatively.

I mean c'mon if they get too far from the comics it's going to suck, and not just because the book is always better than the movie.

I disagree with this.  In short, it is saying that the writers have no talent (or already blew their only original ideas on the comic) and cannot create something worthwhile on their own.

Frankly, the only real upside they have by sticking with the comics is in not alienating fans of the comic, hence keeping a dedicated fanbase.  As someone who never read the comic I see the show through different eyes than those who read it, and I think the show as a whole is still as strong as ever, regardless of how much it has deviated from the comic.

When I look at shows I watch that are based on good books that I read, I have a hard time both not judging it and seeing it as its own entity.  I don't see Game of Thrones as a show by itself, I see it as a show that is recreating the book and starting to deviate.  So in that situation I was happy when they stuck to the story and not happy when they deviated.

BUT, there are shows where deviation works out for the better.  Bosch deviated from the story in the first season, but it allowed the story to take an original direction that wouldn't have worked if they had followed the books closer.  I get to watch season two with "fresh eyes" and I like it.

So I think a lot of what you are saying has to do with your situation.  You KNOW the story and nothing short of following it will "be as good".  However, my disagreement is more with that idea that an author can't possibly do better once he does it well the first time.  Authors seldom have only one idea in their head, and while some can show talent on one story but then never show talent again, usually it follows that if they can do it well once they can do it well again.  If anything, I would say that this is their chance to look back and see how they could make the story better, and by doing so they have a better chance of the story improving the more it deviates.

Fear is, IMHO, a bad example of "original" writing.  They had to create a spinoff that does not contradict the main story in any way while keeping the author in a box that has already been built, and still expect him to write a good original story.  Not saying it can't be done, but it is far more difficult to be original if you are confined like that.  It is FAR easier to write the next chapter than to write what happened before chapter 1.  Just my 2 cents as a writer.


Oh, and I was not happy that they left us hanging... Even when Glenn got trapped and we all figured he was dead, my feelings about it only lasted a day or two.  By the time they got back to it, I was almost disappointed he was still alive.  I had already gotten over it, and I simply didn't care one way or another.  Even the characters in the story had written him off.  In several months I will start the new season and while I will wonder who died, it will be academic in nature, not an emotional investment.  They could kill off any of them, or even many of them, and all that would matter is how the story will change after this.  But the other night, watching that scene was downright difficult.  I FELT the anger, fear, and regret over the situation, and I couldn't have swallowed that "pill" if I were in their shoes.  I wanted Negan dead at any cost.  And I was gripping the edge of the seat fiercely waiting to find out who he was going to kill off, hoping it would be the Latino chick, but wondering how it would be to kill Glenn, Maggie, or even Rick or Daryl.  But now, just a few days later, I no longer feel it.  In fact, I almost don't care.  When I find out, it will be interesting, but I will be too prepared for any, none, or even all to die for it to really move me.

[Howard_Casto]

Negan was cool.  The ending was lame.  As was the ending of the previous episode. As was the mid-season cliffhanger.
Sweaty, losing his mind Rick is just annoying.  Pretty sure I made this same complaint in a previous season.

As far as Carol's flip.  It took place way too fast, over only a couple episodes which was ridiculous IMO.

That's how PTSD works.... your switch just flips all the sudden and all that repressed emotion overwhelms you.  So it's a fairly accurate depiction although I'm fairly certain this happened in spite of the writing staff and not because of it. 

dkersten:  It isn't about the any deviations from the comics being bad.... Hershel was a welcomed surprise after all... it's about the fact that certain members of the writing staff are hacks, so they need the structure of the comics to help as Kirkman actually is a competent writer.  That Dinkel guy.... he's an utter hack.  Every time they give him an episode to write he butchers it. Nicotero is ok, but the fact that he's a SFX guy is obvious because all of his shows have these elaborate gags that often detract from the story. 

The bad writing on Fear has no excuse.  I don't get what you mean about it having the dreaded "prequel-itis" because it is NOT a true prequel... it's a spin-off.  It's set in the same universe but it's on the other side of the country and nothing that happens on that show, aside from the fact that it's a zombie apocalypse, has anything to do with the main show nor will any decisions the writing staff make, aside from the zombie rules, have any effect on it.  So long as they stay away from Georgia and D.C. the writing staff can do whatever they want without consequence. 


It's obvious that they don't know how to write a proper cliff-hanger.  It's not that hard... something important is supposed to happen and just when the cast is about to deal with the fallout  .... "to be continued".  One of the best ones I can think of was the borg two-parter on Star Trek: TNG.  They end part one showing that Picard is assimilated... holy crap!  Now you knew he wasn't going to die, he's the star, but how were they going to save him and what would be the fate of the crew?  That's how you do it.... death is a cheap gimmick because even with a show like this, none of the principal cast is going to die... what you do is put the cast in an impossible situation, so when you cut, the audience can get excited about how they are going to pull it off.  The Terminus cliffhanger, despite the lack-luster payoff, was how you do it.  I think they stumbled into it at random though.

[smass]

Negan was cool.  The ending was lame.  As was the ending of the previous episode. As was the mid-season cliffhanger.
Sweaty, losing his mind Rick is just annoying.  Pretty sure I made this same complaint in a previous season.

As far as Carol's flip.  It took place way too fast, over only a couple episodes which was ridiculous IMO.

Keep in mind that this season included a pretty substantial time leap forward.  At least a few months went by after Carl got shot in the eye.  Carol's transformation could seem sudden in the context of the few weeks between episodes, but it was months in Walking Dead time...

[BadMouth]

Oh, and I was not happy that they left us hanging... Even when Glenn got trapped and we all figured he was dead, my feelings about it only lasted a day or two.  By the time they got back to it, I was almost disappointed he was still alive.  I had already gotten over it, and I simply didn't care one way or another.  Even the characters in the story had written him off.  In several months I will start the new season and while I will wonder who died, it will be academic in nature, not an emotional investment.  They could kill off any of them, or even many of them, and all that would matter is how the story will change after this.  But the other night, watching that scene was downright difficult.  I FELT the anger, fear, and regret over the situation, and I couldn't have swallowed that "pill" if I were in their shoes.  I wanted Negan dead at any cost.  And I was gripping the edge of the seat fiercely waiting to find out who he was going to kill off, hoping it would be the Latino chick, but wondering how it would be to kill Glenn, Maggie, or even Rick or Daryl.  But now, just a few days later, I no longer feel it.  In fact, I almost don't care.  When I find out, it will be interesting, but I will be too prepared for any, none, or even all to die for it to really move me.

I had the opposite reaction.  I didn't have any emotion watching it because given the last few cliffhangers I knew what they showed or didn't show would have no bearing on anything moving forward.  I sat there waiting to get it over with, then rolled my eyes and debated on whether I'd continue to watch the series in the future.
It didn't feel like a cliffhanger.  Given the overuse of misdirection I knew it wasn't going to matter what was or wasn't shown.

EDIT: Felt like a cliffhanger on a soap opera where they keep killing off characters and bringing them back later with a lame explanation that doesn't make sense. 

[Vigo]

Negan was cool.  The ending was lame.  As was the ending of the previous episode. As was the mid-season cliffhanger.
Sweaty, losing his mind Rick is just annoying.  Pretty sure I made this same complaint in a previous season.

As far as Carol's flip.  It took place way too fast, over only a couple episodes which was ridiculous IMO.

Keep in mind that this season included a pretty substantial time leap forward.  At least a few months went by after Carl got shot in the eye.  Carol's transformation could seem sudden in the context of the few weeks between episodes, but it was months in Walking Dead time...

Weeks passed and Carl never managed to get a badass, guvnor style eye patch. 

I don't accept the time passing excuse for bad character development. Carol has every right to change, but showing her write in her dream journal and realize that she killed 18 people doesn't convince an audience. She never objected to Rick and never experienced a real reason to regret her standpoint, and if anything, her time getting kidnapped and getting caught on the road should have taught her that everything she has done has been to protect herself and others. Her entire group would have been dead a few times over without her.

[dkersten]

dkersten:  It isn't about the any deviations from the comics being bad.... Hershel was a welcomed surprise after all... it's about the fact that certain members of the writing staff are hacks, so they need the structure of the comics to help as Kirkman actually is a competent writer.  That Dinkel guy.... he's an utter hack.  Every time they give him an episode to write he butchers it. Nicotero is ok, but the fact that he's a SFX guy is obvious because all of his shows have these elaborate gags that often detract from the story.

I can buy that, but then the issue is getting better writers, not insisting that the only way the show will be good is if they follow the comics.

I have never tracked which writer/director does each show to look for trends, I just watch and enjoy.  Sure, some episodes aren't as good, or maybe I don't even like what they did, but I feel like the producers have the final say in how things play out and the director influences more of the quality of the show than the writers, especially given how much talent is there to overcome even some shady writing.  So if an episode really stinks then one of two things is going on: either the thing I didn't like was intended and will matter in later episodes, or everyone dropped the ball, not just the writer.  Since I don't have a standard to hold against it, I don't judge it by any other criteria than whether I still enjoy the series. 

The bad writing on Fear has no excuse.  I don't get what you mean about it having the dreaded "prequel-itis" because it is NOT a true prequel... it's a spin-off.  It's set in the same universe but it's on the other side of the country and nothing that happens on that show, aside from the fact that it's a zombie apocalypse, has anything to do with the main show nor will any decisions the writing staff make, aside from the zombie rules, have any effect on it.  So long as they stay away from Georgia and D.C. the writing staff can do whatever they want without consequence. 

What I mean is that we, the audience, already knows what is going on, and how it will end for the characters.  There is NOTHING new here, other than the details of how things play out.  The entire first season of Fear is just teaching the characters what we already know.  That makes it boring no matter how you spin it.  The only tension here is the same as you find in an 80's horror flick - you want to yell at the characters on the screen to NOT open that door because you already know there is a guy with a machete or axe on the other side ready to chop them to pieces.  Furthermore, any fan of TWD (show or comics) already has preconceived notions of how things were when the zombie apocalypse started, and if the writing doesn't live up to what we already have in our heads, it is going to disappoint.  Those are some big handicaps for any writer to overcome.
How often do prequels of well established stories or movies work out well for the fanbase?  Almost never, because it is hard to please an audience that already decided what happened.  Just because it happened in a different city doesn't make it a whole different story, it just means we have characters that might survive what we know is coming. 

I think the second season will determine whether the show has decent writing.  The hardest part is over and the cat is now out of the bag, and while the characters don't know the full extent of what is happening yet, they are in the same boat that Rick and his gang were in back in season 1.  If they can't pull out a decent show from here then it has no future.  I don't think it is a great show yet, but it still has potential.

It's obvious that they don't know how to write a proper cliff-hanger.  It's not that hard... something important is supposed to happen and just when the cast is about to deal with the fallout  .... "to be continued". 

So they are trying to get a primary character to a doctor so she doesn't die, and her health is rapidly declining (something important has to happen for her to survive).  All paths are blocked and they soon realize they are puppets in a play they are not controlling.  Then ALL the important characters in the story are captured with NO HOPE of getting away.  And one is going to die.  As the proverbial axe comes down (i.e. the fallout), the show ends.  How is this not exactly what you described??

I see it as the cliffhanger being too intense without enough resolution to satisfy while still keeping us dying to find out what happens next.  They built the tension up to the highest it has ever been in the show and then stopped right at the peak, leaving us hanging not for a week, but for several months.  By the time the show starts up again, the feelings evoked in this episode are going to pass and the resolution that allows the story to continue will feel weak and forced, no matter how well it is done.  It would have been better to line everyone up and have Negan come out and say "Hi, I'm Negan, and one of you is going to die tonight." and end it right there... That would leave us in suspense while saving the tension builder for the season opener.  BETTER YET, do this at the 75 minute mark, when we expect 15 more minutes of show, so not only is it a cliffhanger, but an unexpected one at that...

[BadMouth]

So they are trying to get a primary character to a doctor so she doesn't die, and her health is rapidly declining (something important has to happen for her to survive).  All paths are blocked and they soon realize they are puppets in a play they are not controlling.  Then ALL the important characters in the story are captured with NO HOPE of getting away.  And one is going to die.  As the proverbial axe comes down (i.e. the fallout), the show ends.  How is this not exactly what you described??

I see it as the cliffhanger being too intense without enough resolution to satisfy while still keeping us dying to find out what happens next.  They built the tension up to the highest it has ever been in the show and then stopped right at the peak, leaving us hanging not for a week, but for several months.  By the time the show starts up again, the feelings evoked in this episode are going to pass and the resolution that allows the story to continue will feel weak and forced, no matter how well it is done.  It would have been better to line everyone up and have Negan come out and say "Hi, I'm Negan, and one of you is going to die tonight." and end it right there... That would leave us in suspense while saving the tension builder for the season opener.  BETTER YET, do this at the 75 minute mark, when we expect 15 more minutes of show, so not only is it a cliffhanger, but an unexpected one at that...

1. Who said anyone died?  Negan only said he was going to beat the crap out of someone. 
There were also a few characters present who nobody would care about being killed.
....so why would I think an important character was killed? 
Especially after they've made it look like important characters were killed so often and then didn't follow through.
Hell, they won't even kill off the secondary characters I don't like.

If anyone died, I'm hoping it was mullet genius guy.
He's been kept on way too long, as has the preacher.

[harveybirdman]

I haven't read most of the newer arcs in the comics, but I'm pretty sure bot Eugene and Father Gabriel are still alive.... Sorry Badmouth.

[Howard_Casto]

I haven't read most of the newer arcs in the comics, but I'm pretty sure bot Eugene and Father Gabriel are still alive.... Sorry Badmouth.

Yeah they are crucial characters in the book.  Eugene is the star of the show on tv, so I'm not sure why you'd want him gone.... he's the only one that makes this crappy grim dark orgy of false tension watchable.

[dkersten]

1. Who said anyone died?  Negan only said he was going to beat the crap out of someone. 

This is true, but that wasn't my point.  If you wanted to improve on the cliffhanger, he should come out and say that and then end the season there, leaving the suspense without building the tension to the limits.  It wouldn't even matter if it was true or not because the debate would be about whether it will go down that way or not, not about who got their head caved in and whether they will survive.  Besides, that is Negan's MO.. Kill one person to set the example and prove that he can and will kill you for ANY reason.  The ONLY reason to have him break character and move away from killing someone here is to appease the fans.

There were also a few characters present who nobody would care about being killed.
....so why would I think an important character was killed? 

Because they created a dilemma here - if they don't kill someone important off, they will lose fans who think the show is as you say -  too chickenshit to kill of anyone important, hence making them all safe.  If they DO kill of someone important they will lose fans who only watched because they liked that character.  If they just have him beat someone nearly to death they will paint the Negan character as too compassionate and he will just end up being another Governor to deal with.

So who should they kill?  At this point to kill the Latino chick (the only really unimportant character as far as I am concerned) is cheap and ultimately doesn't matter.  At best the chick (didn't even bother to remember her name because she is expendable to me) is a crush for Eugene.  Eugene *might* be considered unimportant at this time (as far as the show is concerned, not looking at comic line) because he already gave the plans to Rick for making ammo.  Aside from his "colorful" character, there is no emotional tie to him.  Everyone else will either have an emotional tie for me as a viewer, or an important part in the show.  Killing one of them would truly change the story.

Personally I am torn over which way to go, and this is the problem... by the time the show comes back on I will be prepared for any kind of outcome and it won't hit me at all.  It will just be what it is, and there is no way to not start the next season off on a downhill slide (in terms of tension and emotion).

[RandyT]

1. Who said anyone died?  Negan only said he was going to beat the crap out of someone. 

I had to go back and analyze the scene from the DVR.  Negan smashed the individual, with the some pretty horrific "mushy" thud sounds a total of 8 times before he was done.  Not only are they dead, they probably look quite a bit like the drawing posted earlier in the thread.

If anyone died, I'm hoping it was mullet genius guy.

The scene doesn't seem to allow this.  Mullet guy is to the right of Carl, and when Negan said something to the effect of "scoop the boy's other eye out" he gestured to his right.  There was something else interesting at the end of that scene: it changed briefly from showing the POV of Negan, to the POV of the eventual victim.  So, whose face didn't you continue to see when that happened?  Maybe a worthless observation, but it might be  a hint.

[Vigo]

In my book, the following can kick the bucket without me getting upset in the least:

Captured by Negan:
Glenn
Maggie
Sasha
Carl
Rosita
That recruiter guy

Not captured:
Enid
Tara
Deanna's son
That supply runner guy with the glasses and dreads
Morgan
That guy who was shacking up with Carol


I don't want Eugene to die because I find the gunpowder manufacturing bit interesting. Eugene is clearly the group's Donatello, and he could make things interesting. Although Gabriel's story has been sucking so far, things *might* get interesting with him.

[smass]

I am willing to bet my arcade cabinet (its a cheapskate build so take that with a grain of salt) on two things:

1.  Someone dies, no one is surviving a caved in skull. 

2.  The dead person is one of three: Glenn (following comic lore), Abraham (biggest threat), or Daryl (basically a TV show character, not in comics)

Anyone else want to ante up?

[harveybirdman]

Sasha going off the deep end if it's Abraham.... Damn... that girl has lost a lot!!!!!!!!!  Plus killing him now really makes killing Denise in his stead a real head scratcher.  If this happens one can most certainly infer the producers have no idea who it is or any kind of real tangible plan.  Which can be the death of a TV series in my book (I still hate JJ Abrams for not only raping Star Wars but also pissing away everything that was good about Lost by clearly writing with no purpose or plan for the better part of the last three seasons)


Daryl makes sense given that he has a TV show on AMC, a Boondock Saints sequel, and god knows what else lined up career wise.  I could see contract negotiations, either now or in the future screwing up the story in a major way....  but just so you know if it is him we most DEFINITELY riot!!!!

I just keep coming back to Glen, it has to be him it will be disappointing if it isn't to me at this point.

[BadMouth]

I think killing Glen, then letting Maggie die with him wouldn't be a bad way to end their chapter.

Given the other cliffhangers, he could have been beating a zombie or a pile of steaks though.
It's not much fun speculating if there weren't any hints. 

[RandyT]

I think killing Glen, then letting Maggie die with him wouldn't be a bad way to end their chapter.

Probably wouldn't bother me much either.  They seem to have become less important plot-wise.  I never really bought the idea of her as the "matriarch", and that position seems irrelevant at the moment.

Given the other cliffhangers, he could have been beating a zombie or a pile of steaks though.
It's not much fun speculating if there weren't any hints. 

I just offered a couple of possible hints.   But it's definitely one of the group.  Watch the last part of the scene again.  It can't not be.

[dkersten]

With as much as has been said in the show about Maggie being the future of Alexandria, it wouldn't make much sense to kill her off.  I could care less now, especially after all the build up to Glenn being dead and then not... I feel like they are played out.

Daryl hasn't seemed to have much value lately, it kind of feels like they already removed him.  He is like a steady workhorse, valuable because he is solid and reliable (with the exception of his latest stunt), but otherwise not really tied to anyone.  They had chances to add love interests and yet they never do.  Combined with him being in other shows now it seems like this is the most likely choice.

[Vigo]

I highly doubt they would off Daryl without giving him an epic goodbye episode.

[CCM]

Daryl hasn't seemed to have much value lately, it kind of feels like they already removed him.  He is like a steady workhorse, valuable because he is solid and reliable (with the exception of his latest stunt), but otherwise not really tied to anyone.  They had chances to add love interests and yet they never do.  Combined with him being in other shows now it seems like this is the most likely choice.

My wife says the same thing about Daryl... he hasn't done much or played a major role at all this season.   He used to be the tough guy protector type, but now I think Abraham fills that role.   The writers/producers seem to be struggling to find a role for him at this point.    But... on the other hand I would bet that as far as Walking Dead merchandise goes, Daryl probably is the top earner, so I doubt they want to risk that.   

I said it in a prior post, but I am convinced that the writers/producers have no idea who it is yet.   But I do agree with smass that someone is definitely dead.

[vwalbridge]

(Don't ask me why Chad Kroeger is modeling the shirt)

[thomas_surles]

I just read something that made a lot of sense.
it has to be someone from the trailer. Glenn, daryl, Michonne, or rosita.
The show opens in a pov from one of them. it's shows that a couple more times. Then it ends in a pov.
so from a film makers stand point that works.

as they are getting out of the trailer you can see daryl from the view of whomever is looking. so this could rule out daryl.

it all leads back to Glenn.

[Howard_Casto]

The more I think about it, the more I feel we are doing exactly what they wanted.  By arguing and speculating we are keeping the show in our minds and trending on social media.  So I'm done.... I'll find out next season if I still have interest in watching. 

Time for Fear.  Even though the spin-off is fairly terrible I find it to be a guilty pleasure.  It's like watching a train wreck.  I've got to admit that zombies on a boat is a fairly novel idea... it has potential.

[harveybirdman]

[vwalbridge]

[Howard_Casto]

Well now motha **** I'm stuck on a boat.
Good thing those moth **** zombies don't float.

Were on a boat motha **** and were gonna survive!
Gonna eat some fishies  to keep us alive!

[vwalbridge]

Well now motha **** I'm stuck on a boat.
Good thing those moth **** zombies don't float.

Were on a boat motha **** and were gonna survive!
Gonna eat some fishies  to keep us alive!

I'm now even more sad that Howard will not be joining us at ZapCon. 

[HaRuMaN]

Well that was an eye-popping episode... o_O

[Howard_Casto]

Man they really dragged it out only to have Glen, the guy who died in the comics and a non-important character like Abraham die.  Seriously we didn't need an hour and 10 minute episode and an hour and 30 minute after show just for that. 

It was horseshit that they pulled all that crap with Glen last season only to actually kill him.  Eugene is still on there and we haven't seen the Tiger yet, but this show is wearing on me. 

[harveybirdman]

I will be interested how they handle Dwight's story line.... but I agree with Howard on the damn drawn out episode.

They should have had Abraham die in last season's finale and just when everyone thought Glenn was safe kill him in the premiere.

But definitely expected better especially having to stomach 60 commercials for 35 minutes of show.

[BadMouth]

I swore that I was done with this show and wasn't going to bother watching any this season.

Got bored last night and watched the premiere.
Same old crap.  The writing feels random and not in a good way.  Like in an incoherent pointless "nothing from prior or future episodes matters" kind of way.  I'm not sure how a series based on an already established story manages to pull that off, but they do. 
As soon as last season's cliffhanger aired, I was convinced that they didn't know who they were going to kill off and wanted to keep their options open.
All the analyzing and speculation about who got killed was a farce.  The writing in this show just doesn't work that way.
(Game of Thrones does work that way and it's one of the reasons I love that series.)
Walking Dead is more like the old Batman live action series where they leave you with a crazy cliffhanger (how will they escape this time) and then the next episode has letdown of an explanation and then sets up for the next cliffhanger.

I don't care about any of the characters at this point.  None of them have had any interesting dialogue for a long time.
Rick who is supposedly the lead character has been a spastic bumbling mess for what feels like multiple seasons now.
I didn't think that could get any worse, but it turns out that I was wrong.
Maybe he gets paid based on lines of dialogue and they save money by having him just make improvised faces instead.

alright.  I think I've ranted more than I'm entitled to.
I should just not watch a show that I no longer like.

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah man, but there's a tiger this season.  Until I see a tiger rip apart some zombies, I feel my life won't be complete. 

[thomas_surles]

Popey's

[smass]

My money is on Abraham.  He had that whole "I am ready to have kids" moment with Sasha in the camper earlier in the episode and that may have fore-shadowed his death.  Also, the first hit from the bat did not kill him or knock him out as Negan exclaimed "you took that like a man" (or close to that).  Abraham has a big ole skull that might take a hit without popping like a ripe melon.  If it were Glenn it would have been a one hit TKO

Genius...

[dkersten]

I was convinced that they didn't know who they were going to kill off and wanted to keep their options open.

They went over this in Talking Dead and they have known for a couple years, and the actors knew 8 months ago and couldn't say anything.  That stuff was all shot last season.

From what they said (Kirkman and Gimple), the entire show changes now, and pretty much the last season was lead up to get to this crossroad in the story. 

Personally, I look forward to the season, but I think they crossed the line in the graphic violence department with that episode.  The gore and violence in this show is fine, normally, sometimes overdone, but tolerable and at worst just not to my taste. I think this is mostly because it is either an animal (zombies aren't people any more) vs man, or violence between people with the end desire to win a fight or maybe to hit you hard emotionally.  Even the hardest scenes to watch before this were still done within those bounds.  But what they showed in this episode was basically a graphic display of torture and torment that was simply not necessary.  I felt like I had accidentally turned on a video of a Muslim cutting off a Christian man's head, something that repulses me at the deepest levels.  It was too personal and graphic and in extremely poor taste.  Not only was I repulsed by the scene, I was angry for them crossing the line, and it kept me from even caring that they killed off a major character.  Ruined the rest of the episode for me.

Hopefully the backlash from it (and there is a lot of outcry over that scene) will keep them in line.  There are places where it is entertaining for them to push the boundaries, but this is just not one of them. 

[Howard_Casto]

I hope you are joking.  It's a horror tv show, there is supposed to be blood and gore.  Also it's all pretend.  The rubber head they used for the scene looked fake as all get out. 

That aside the comic book death is quite graphic and they are just mirroring that.  It's supposed to be... you are supposed to care about Glen.