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Author Topic: MANX TT - Super bike - from Sega motorcyle Cab. force feedback PC/xbox Hack ?  (Read 6896 times)

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rmwilson

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I am looking to try and acquire a Sega MANX tt cabinet (twin motorcycles) to try and hack it and hook it up to a playstation or a xbox - my first question before i look and buy a unit is -  does any one remember if the cabinet had any force feed back ... I seem to remember some units did and others seemed to not when i played it back what 15-20 years ago - is that because some may have been broken or was my mind playing tricks with me and there never was any vibration or force feed back ??????  can someone clarify ?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 12:04:55 pm by rmwilson »

twistedsymphony

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Re: MANX TT - Super bike - from Sega motorcyle Cab. question force feedback
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2014, 09:16:51 am »
I never remember these cabinets having force feedback. unless you count the giant springs to help keep the bike body in the upright position.

cool cabinets, my favorite feature was always the sub-woofer mounted in the tailpipe.

EDIT: looking at the deluxe manual here: http://www.crownleisure.co.uk/Documents/Manuals/Sega/Manx%20TT/MANX%20TT%20DX/Manx%20TT%20DX.pdf

it looks like it does have some kind of motor assembly but it's unclear if that was unique to the deluxe version or if that was just to help center the bike when they locked in place between games. I don't think I ever played a deluxe cabinet, it was always the twin units.

EDIT #2: looking at the diagnostic options in the menu it seems as though the motor was probably only there  to work like a brake to hold the bike up right when getting on/off and work as an assistive "crutch" to take stress off of the user's arms when trying to change direction.

thinking about it logically It would take an ENORMOUS motor to produce force feedback that would move the whole bike assembly with someone on it... not to mention exceptionally dangerous (imagine it moving too quickly and throwing a small child off of it). really though when riding a bike there's not much handlebar resistance, nor much variation in resistance when turning at speed... no where near what you get in a car so FFB dosn't make much sense anyway.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2014, 09:29:17 am by twistedsymphony »

rmwilson

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Re: MANX TT - Super bike - from Sega motorcyle Cab. question force feedback
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2014, 10:52:40 am »
Thanks twistedsymphony-

Although was not thinking feed back in whole bike I seem to recall the grips had rumble or at very least some vibration on one unit i played... and I remember switching bikes and it was no where near as nice as the first one on that particular unit ... - I pretty much played it every where I went and saw one I liked them ...

There was also speakers in the tank (maybe) and maybe it was from those as those arcades were not quiet !!! :)

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Re: MANX TT - Super bike - from Sega motorcyle Cab. question force feedback
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2014, 02:09:28 pm »
I think any grip feedback you might have felt was just subwoofer/speaker rumble... the grip mechanism looks pretty plain.

rmwilson

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Re: MANX TT - Super bike - from Sega motorcyle Cab. question force feedback
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2014, 03:09:16 pm »
Interestingly enough for those that are interested - here is the Namaco manual for GP 500  (and it too only talks about gas and brake maintenance)

http://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/images/8/8a/500GP_Deluxe_Operators.pdf

rmwilson

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Re: MANX TT - Super bike - from Sega motorcyle Cab. question force feedback
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2014, 01:37:11 pm »
in an effort to keep the thread and forum up to date - I wanted to add this tid bit in.... Apparently there is a regular version and a deluxe version of the cabinet - the delux has some feed back but none of my research explains what it is and how to repair it.

Has any one ever hacked / mame'd a TT and used it for driving games??? ( non bike games)

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Re: MANX TT - Super bike - from Sega motorcyle Cab. question force feedback
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2014, 04:49:13 pm »
Excluding any force feedback functionality I can't imagine it would be difficult to make it work for racing games... all driving games just read info from a pot for the steering, throttle, and brake.. Manx TT is no different in that regard. if you hack open a racing wheel check the pot values and compare it to the Manx pots if they're the same wire them up and go to town... if they're too different then you'd need to find similar style pots to what Manx uses but with the values your wheel expects... then swap them out and wire it up.


rmwilson

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Just had an additional thought ... Rather than hacking it for an xbox .. I was thinking why not use a PC - I'd like to try and run the game 'MOTO GP 14'  but now my questions revolve around if i could output split screen to dual displays? ( run one PC and have two players each playing on their own screen) or would I need wo computers and do an internet/lan mutiplayer game?


Other questions - in the xbox version the controller rumbles - any thoughts on using that game feed back and hacking it to the arcade unit so that when the controller rumbles i tap into the force feed back on the Manxtt Dx version?


twistedsymphony

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... if i could output split screen to dual displays? ( run one PC and have two players each playing on their own screen) or would I need wo computers and do an internet/lan mutiplayer game?
the equipment required to convert a split-screen output to into two separate monitor feeds is substantially more expensive than building a second computer or buying a second console... and the resultant image will probably look like garbage too

Other questions - in the xbox version the controller rumbles - any thoughts on using that game feed back and hacking it to the arcade unit so that when the controller rumbles i tap into the force feed back on the Manxtt Dx version?
That's impossible to answer without intimate knowledge as to how the Manx TT Force Feedback works. But based on the difficulty of getting other FFB systems to work with a PC I'd say for all intents and purposes: no.

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The manx twins do not have force feedback.

The Manx dx deluxe (red tank) do. They have a motor in the bottom where when you lean the bike over hard it feels as if the back end is trying to come around.

rmwilson

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Does any one know what to look for or how to fix the motor in the base of the Manxtt DX - I have one and it started making a horrendous noise and now its not working at all .. I have not opened it up yet but trying to get a sense of what i am looking for....

rmwilson

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I am trying to find out what are all the voltages that come out of the power supply for a MANx Tt
Any one have any technical / service data not in the manual ?

twistedsymphony

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I am trying to find out what are all the voltages that come out of the power supply for a MANx Tt
Any one have any technical / service data not in the manual ?

MANX TT uses a standard Model 2 power supply... so +5V and +12V and that's it. it's pretty typical. it's listed in the manual and you can verify it with a multimeter if you like.

I'm not sure why you're asking but FWIW the motor doesn't use the power supply. Typically (no idea if MANX does this but this is how most arcade motor controllers work that I've seen) those have a transformer that connects to AC to drop down the voltage and then the motor control board does the AC/DC conversion.

rmwilson

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twistedsymphony- thanks for your response... I have a full machine (manx dx) but i was looking to part out the cabinets - ( that have power supply and boards in them) as i was just going to keep the bike and try and interface that to a pc or a console. I was trying to figure out what the two motors were and what they operate of ( voltage wise) so I could keep that information handy - ideally i want to hand it over to a school as  a student project to find away to interface with the existing motors in the Manx tt base of the bike - I really dont have enough knowledge about the motors how they  operate and what controls them ... but the hope/ thinking is if i could take the single from game pad (console) rumble motors and pipe that signal into the motoes in the base I'd be rock'in !! :)



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Rumble motors are completely different than force feedback or positional motors... making a physical interface work isn't difficult but the type of data is unrelatable.

rumble motors have non-directional intensity
forcefeedback or positional motors like that on Manxx motors have a directional intensity

Trying to make rumble motor signals control a positional motor is like trying to figure out how old someone is by asking their mother's name. it can't really be done because the information you need simply isn't there.

based on what you were posting earlier I thought you were trying to interface it using data from a force feedback wheel, not rumble motors.... A FFB wheel and a properly supported game will have the data you need, but you wont get that with a normal controller's rumble feature.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 04:05:57 pm by twistedsymphony »

rmwilson

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Interesting ...
I have not actually decided quite what i will do ... Just thought it would be cool ... the left right and throttle and such are standard pots that seems pretty straight forward... a FFB wheel is not out of the question ... I guess ultimately i wanted to make a really cool motogp player game and have something ' cool in my basement' 

I wonder if any force feed back wheels work with MotoGp 15?

as far as positional and rumble pad motors.. i was just thinking throwing ideas out (like i say completely new to this) but figured the rumble motors tened to go off when i was at the side of the track and never thought about it from a positional standpoint ... i just figured it was providing feed back ... I am not even sure if my existing positional motor in there is working right as it makes one hell of a racket but it does not pull the bike over... but i think it was suupose to ... I think a pinion gear is stripped out so may have to get a custom cut gear ...

realizing the whole project is quite ambitious... I'm collecting information and supplies in hopes one day maybe I can have a student project at a local collage or university (thus having mutiple talented people working on )

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Honestly I'm not familiar enough with the cabinet to give you any insight one way or another.  One thing you need to keep in mind though is that for some games sega DID use rumble motors... well... sort of.  A lot of games like afterburner would have this offset motor that basically shook and "wobbled" the whole steering column it wasn't directional but because of the way it moved the controls, a lot of people thought it was. 

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Looking at the manual, the force feedback wasn't just a simple rumble motor.
It shifted the front end of the bike on a slide left and right.
It has a separate drive board like the driving games.

I vaguely remember playing it long ago and think it worked like this:
when you lean into a right hand turn, the front of the bike will slide left.
It's counterintuitive to those who don't ride, but this is actually how it works on a real motorcycle.
If you get up to coasting speed on a bicycle and really pay attention to the handling, it does the same thing.
I don't remember any shaking, but I can't even remember how long ago I played it.

This is the reason I think the newer motorcycle games like fast and furious suck so bad.
You're just tipping the bike left and right.  It doesn't feel anything like you're riding a motorcycle.

I really don't think there's much of a chance you'll get it to work without some type of custom programming.
Just hooking it up to a force feedback wheel is not going to give you the same effect.
In fact the effects would probably seem completely wrong.

If you know someone who is good with arduino and automation, you could rig it up so that the sliding action is just controlled by the handlebar movement (independent of the game).
That's beyond my abilities though.

There's also the option of  bolting in a rumble motor from something else.

Doing both would be ideal, but it would be for the hardcore tinkerer.

EDIT: I'm gonna add that to steer on a motorcycle you don't turn the handlebars in the direction you want to go like a steering wheel.
You lean and the bars actually turn slightly in the opposite direction.  You apply forward pressure to the grip on the side you want to turn, the bike leans over because the wheel is turned slightly in the opposite direction, and then the bike goes in the direction of the lean.  Again, a bicycle drifting at a decent click works the same way (but at slow speed you turn the handlebars in the direction you want to go).  You just don't realize it because it comes naturally.
I don't remember if ManxTT worked this way, but I do remember it was way more like riding a real motorcycle than any other arcade game I've played.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 11:08:25 am by BadMouth »

rmwilson

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hey hey 'badmouth' thanks for your thoughts - great post. I use to road race motorcycle for many many years so totally see what you are saying about steering and such ... (hence the whole whole motivation as to why I want a Manx tt in my house to play moto gp 15 on it :) --- lol I remember being 16 ( eeeek 25 years ago) and playing 8 bikes linkes manxtt - almost every Friday night at an arcade that we'd all ride our street bikes to to hang out for the night !!! so its got fond memories and a certain cool factor to it ... No doubt its a pretty ambitious hack ... I am hoping to get an electrical engineering school program involved... and it would be awesome if they could figure out a controller of some sort .. buy not being native in the programming of the modern day motogp games its hard ... that's why i was thinking of playing off the FFB or the rummble motors to at least take that signal ... so I had something to start with ...

I am not sure how these motors are suppose to operate or if its similar to other arcade machines... but it makes one hell of a racket in my garage i cant quite see if the pinon gear is stripped... so I will have to pull it out ...

I am going to try and attach a few pictures...

The motor on the left from what I understand is a 'brake' it locks the bike in a solid non moveable position, the little black box at the back is actually a large CPU style fan ... its the motor on the right that has the pinion gear and a gear track I am not sure if its just suppose to slide along that track or is it also suppose to shake/ give vibration / ffb??????? - any thought does it look like a similar set up from other machines?

shoot is there no way to attach an image if its not hosted on a web server???

how can I attach a picture to this thread?
« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 10:48:48 pm by rmwilson »

rmwilson

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Here is what the motor set up looks like for the Manx TT DX unit - does it look similar to other Sega motors? Should it be a smooth silent operation ... as when it rumbles - it sounds like a hammer banging on steel ... not sure if this is for game effect or if its ssuppose to do that ???(is it trying to simulate vibration and rumbling????)

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that's not like any other motor setup I've seen, but it's also a really unique effect that it's creating so it's not surprising that it would be dissimilar.

it looks like an inverted rack and pinion, where the rack is fixed and the pinion moves a trolly along the pinion.  I doubt it's supposed to make any banging noises... my guess is something is stuck or broken.

rmwilson

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Hi twistedsymphony - it 100% a rack and pinion.

Just to add some more content to the picture (it was taken from the right hand side of the unit looking towards the screen) - the motor on the left is what i understand to be a LOCK - this stops the bike from moving when the game is not in play, the moor on the right does centre the bike on start up but no banging and huge noises when it does this ... but when you play the game and get to the edge of the course where the cobble stones are that's when it starts making an all mighty racket - the manual says it will make a racket if its not aligned correctly - what i am not sure is if it should make no racket at all when its right or yes it does have some banging and noise for affect ... what I cant seem to tell or figure out is ---- does it move along the rack (rack and pinion) some what quietly (as quiet as a motor this size would be) or does it move  AND rattle and bang to create a sense of bike shuddering and vibration ... because it dang near shakes the teeth out my head when it starts !!!

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my guess is that the gears are just worn to crap so when it makes quick back and forth movements the huge amount of backlash causes to clang around.