Yoke design and build

[HairyDVD]

I have been asked to do a Star Wars bartop with the controller as a yoke.  Now in the UK these things are like gold dust, so I thought I would have a go at trying to make one.

Now before the purists say "That the wrong size" or "Different design" - this is me just trying to solve how to get a yoke working on an xbox console as reliable as possible and as cheap with readily available parts with my skills.

A few months ago I finished a cnc machine build that I keep in the garage at my mother-in-laws.  This means I can cut mdf and acrylic accurately based on any designs I come up with.

Initially I thought about the handle design, how could I attach them to a base and how would the finger "trigger" and thumb "bomb" controls work......



I started to design something just based on loose dimensions in my head.  I thought the handles could be made in mdf in 2 parts that could be screwed together - with acrylic sides where they would get the most wear and tear.  The trigger could also be made from acrylic in a pin / pivot style getting pushed back with a small spring ( maybe from a pen I thought ).  One of the 2 sides could have a locating ping to go through a bar, resulting in both sides being "in sync" with each other.



Image of sides cut out and edges sprayed black.  The black on faced is over-spray.  Lots of holes to fix together, I did not want to glued as it may need to be serviceable in the future 

When acrylic trigger cut in 2 pieces and glued together it results in a little pocket for spring to locate, as does the 2 mdf sides.  The acrlic was either too loose or too tight so I came up with glueing 2 pieces of felt to the mdf to give it a better feel and also to keep out any dust or dirt.



Trigger will hit a small microswitch and the thumb button would be a push to operate momentary switch which I dremelled out a little channel to incorporate.  Seems a little chunky, but just having fun at the moment and I can also refine later when proof of concept working and I am happy.

[HairyDVD]

Picture of one outer side with acrylic on, used black hex bolts to try and make it look as nice as possible.



Trigger assembly with spring and thumb button



Close up of assembled half grip with wires threaded ready to solder ( there is a small channel in mdf for wires to sit in when acrylic if bolted on 



Now onto how handle grips interface with rotating mechanism.........

I had some 15mm metal pipe which was handy for grips to go onto but was not happy with it as it had a seam where ir was joined when made, so I looked around in my workshop and found an alternative - 15mm copper pipe.  We use it in the uk for our plumbing so it is readily available, strong enough for my purposes and easily cut.  So now I have to come up with a design for the pipe to go through a hub which rotates the grips and rotates upon its own base.

I have a load a bearings given to me by a neighbor when he saw they were used on my cnc machine.  His son was in a roller hockey team and he coached them so he had a bunch of rollerblade bearing available.  I though I might as well try and use a few of em on this this as they were free anyway, and I knew the principle of linear and rotary motion in using them on the cnc machine.  I would need something to let the pipe rotate freely but stop in both directions at a set point.........

My first design look like this


And in 3D ready to cut


Proved a bit tricky to cut at first as my mill was blunt and that sucker burn't the mdf and stunk to high heaven.  The result was a bunch of discs made from 12mm mdf - Discs of Tron would have been a more fitting Bartop for these parts ! 



I came up with a curved piece that could be screwed and glued, that would restrict movement around the axis of travel


So then I had to fit a static 'peg' to the shaft for it to hit the restrictors

This was just a pin going through the shaft, held by an mdf collar with a slit in it going to a larger mdf circle with a bolt in it.  Went back to the sacrificed pen and used the screw off top to cover the bolt ( acts as a bit of a shock absorber to save mdf restrictor if player gets too heavy handed  )



A few hub pieces cut later


And we have one axis just about complete ( apart from excoder mechanism, which I am toying with either cog / potentiometer or encoding wheel / mouse movement sensor )

You may notice the nice bit of black plastic covering the pipe between the grip and hub - this was a covering for a barcode scanner adjustable base that I had spare at work so I thought I would re-purpose it 

Refinements to date I would make :-

1 ) Make smaller and base on an angle rather than square.  If I maybe only used 3 bearings in a triangle formation ( 2 on base and 1 on top ), I could reduce the height of the unit.  I would still have to mind how much clearance I have between arcade machine and grips to rotate without fouling.
2) Make from thinner mdf or plywood to accomplish no 1 easier.
3) It would be nice to mill all from acyrlic, but that sucker take ages to mill and you gotta be right on top of the waste extraction or it damages the mill and workpiece ( a bit of a no go here - the sides were bad enough to mill at .5mm increments )
4) Reduce the height of the grips, see no 1 again.

Well this where I am up to at present. Gone a little off track this week as my daughter just passed her driving test and she been hassling me to buy her a car all week.  Just bought her one today, so I am in everyone's good books at the moment.  My previous star wars build ( that Le Chuck kindly helped me with the artwork by supplying files just sold on ebay tonight, so the cash will come in handy for this and car purchase- roll on payday !  )

 I just got a flightstick from ebay for the pricely sum of .99 pence, so I am going to see how it controls coinops on the xbox and if it works well with Star Wars.  If all good, I will take apart and see if I can get the parts to talk to the yoke.  Did buy a cheap steering wheel setup, but found left / right ok on steering wheel but no up / down as the accelerator controlled the controller trigger switches.....  The steering wheel mech for rotation may be how I get the hub to rotate, alternatively I may go down same route as I have done using bearings.

If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated.

[HairyDVD]

Just testing how to add images to my thread rather than linking to host .......

[PL1]

If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated.

If the flightstick guts don't work well with your setup, check out KADESTICK. (see sig)


Scott

[Generic Eric]

If anyone has any suggestions, they would be appreciated.

If the flightstick guts don't work well with your setup, check out KADESTICK. (see sig)


Scott

I'm gonna plus 1 KADE just because if we can manage a working device between xbox (1st Gen) ps3, and PC...that is going to yield better results than destroying both Deathstars! what Scott says below:   

* You need an atmega32u4 (or newer) AVR like KADE+ (prototype), KADESTICK (a KADE+ spinoff), or maxArcade (prototype) to handle the analog to digital conversion required for potentiometers.


Scott

[Le Chuck]

I love that folks are tackling this again and you're doing very clean work so it looks great!

My feedback based on the pics - you're making it way harder than it needs to be.  The Y axis axle rides in a copper bushing on the original, the rotation limiting stops are done with a simple pin and guide system on the Y and four bolts with rubber rings on the X.  You are eating up a lot of interior space to do the same in a much more complex manner. 

The trick isn't making the yoke (I know, that sounds crazy), the trick is making the gearing system that will transfer the motion to your encoder.  Potentiometers make the most sense as that's what the original uses so if you can mirror the values you can use this as a replacement.  Problem is the deflection needs to be 60^o and most pots are 320^oish.  Hence the gearing.  I know RandyT can print replacement gears at a fair price so really that issue is about solved.  10k pots, RandyT's gears, kade+, some hand bent aluminum brackets, and an MDF body with metal bushings and shafts (maybe a small lazy susan/slew ring for the X rotation) and you're all but done.  Then you just need the springs for centering which can be done as in the original or using the system done in Menace's DIY Yoke project. 

It looks like you're reinventing the wheel, which might work great, but I think you can just copy the original almost completely and come out pretty straight.   

I think you're handles are the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, awesome stuff, but you might want to try for a keep it simple approach on the interior. 

Last thing, I've probably done more analog kade projects on here now than anybody (Starfighter, SW yoke rebuildx2, M's Controller, GeoWars controller) and I can't sing enough praises to the simplicity of using that little miracle. 

[PL1]

I'm gonna plus 1 KADE just because if we can manage a working device between xbox (1st Gen) ps3, and PC...that is going to yield better results than destroying both Deathstars!

Just to make sure nobody gets confused:

* The Minimus atmega32u2 AVR used in the KADE miniArcade and microArcade encoders does not handle analog inputs.
These two variants are what most people mean when they mention a KADE encoder.

* You need an atmega32u4 (or newer) AVR like KADE+ (prototype), KADESTICK (a KADE+ spinoff), or maxArcade (prototype) to handle the analog to digital conversion required for potentiometers.

My feedback based on the pics - you're making it way harder than it needs to be.  The Y axis axle rides in a copper bushing on the original, the rotation limiting stops are done with a simple pin and guide system on the Y and four bolts with rubber rings on the X.  You are eating up a lot of interior space to do the same in a much more complex manner. 

Agreed.  It's hard to beat the original.

See the other yoke thread here for links and info.


Scott

[Generic Eric]

Damn....I did it again.

[HairyDVD]

Just really based design on what I had lying around ( 12mm mdf and bearings ) - may look at getting some thinner mdf or ply and either changing position of bearings to have more real estate free or even another way of limiting motion i.e. spring thru shaft similar to the original.  Now if only I had a laser cutter 

At the moment just want to prove that I can get it talking to xbox and range of motion ok to control star wars games ( to keep guy I am making bartop for happy ).  Experiment is more due to need for yoke for this bartop than anything else.  I do like to do things to a high standard which is why I may have over-engineered, but sometimes you get a bit carried away when you drawing things in cad.

It would be good if someone could give me best advice on what hardware I need ( Kade - wise ).  I have a few minimus atmega32's and have purchased the kade device and circuit board for easy connection to arcade controls.   I have programmed for beta ps2 mouse input with no problems.  Mouse buttons worked fine on xbox controller tester so I know connected ok, but when I moved mouse it would only show up as very small amounts against analogue input on left analogue stick irrespective of values in the kade programming software.  Unfortunately it was only around the 250 mark on screen whereas the xbox needs about 32000 from memory to full analogue tilt.  Registered on the kade forum, asked for advice and got an email reply but it just refered to experimental firmware and with me being a noob on the forums did not want to push......  The type of mouse I used was the ball type as I thought I could print a large encoder wheel for it to see the movements on each axis.

I would rather use the kade than hack a flightstick - not because of cost but because the kade device is more cofigurable and I will have a more reliable and trusty device that I and others can use rather than hacking something else.

[PL1]

It would be good if someone could give me best advice on what hardware I need ( Kade - wise ). 

For analog (potentiometer) inputs you need the KADESTICK board detailed here.

The first post has all the details on ordering the correct board/options from MattairTech and a link to the 2-axis hex file.

Reply #24 in that thread (here) has details on how to use FLIP to load the hex onto the board -- it's easier than it sounds, just follow it step-by-step.

Jon has mentioned that he intends to eventually include the KADESTICK board and firmwares in KADE Loader software -- he probably won't get around to it until some time next year at the earliest.   

I have a few minimus atmega32's and have purchased the kade device and circuit board for easy connection to arcade controls.   

The Minimus atmega32u2 boards can handle digital inputs (buttons, 8-way joysticks), optical inputs (mouse, trackball, spinner), rotary mechanical joystick inputs (like Ikari Warriors), and matrix inputs (keypad), but not analog inputs (SW yoke, analog stick, Lunar Lander thruster, Warlords paddles, etc.)

The "analog stick" functions (D-pad shifted functions) you see in the atmega32u2 KADE Loader firmwares are converting an 8-way joystick into a fake analog stick to fool the console.

I have programmed for beta ps2 mouse input with no problems.  Mouse buttons worked fine on xbox controller tester so I know connected ok, but when I moved mouse it would only show up as very small amounts against analogue input on left analogue stick irrespective of values in the kade programming software.  Unfortunately it was only around the 250 mark on screen whereas the xbox needs about 32000 from memory to full analogue tilt.

Maybe Le Chuck can test a KADE+ on an XBox to confirm the range of motion works with the games you want.   

Registered on the kade forum, asked for advice and got an email reply but it just refered to experimental firmware and with me being a noob on the forums did not want to push......  The type of mouse I used was the ball type as I thought I could print a large encoder wheel for it to see the movements on each axis.

I would rather use the kade than hack a flightstick - not because of cost but because the kade device is more cofigurable and I will have a more reliable and trusty device that I and others can use rather than hacking something else.

No worries.  We're here to help.   

If you tried to post a question on the KADE forums, Kevin is slacking on approving your first post. (anti-spam measure)   

The questions that people ask help us to explain things better.   

I think part of the problem here is that you're trying to use an optical input system instead of an analog input system.

An optical input system acts like a mouse.

If you move a mouse it will send relative movement commands. (move cursor up 1 position, etc.)

If you stop moving the mouse, it will stop sending movement commands.

An analog input system converts a variable voltage (from the wiper arm on the potentiometer) to an absolute value (0-255 for a standard 8-bit HID gamepad) every time it is polled.

If you center a 5v analog joystick, it will report X-axis=127 (2.5v), Y-axis=127. (2.5v)

If you pull the stick half-way toward you, it will report X-axis=127 (2.5v), Y-axis=63. (1.25v) -- a difference of ~19.5 mV between each possible value.

If you hold the analog stick still in a non-centered position, the game will translate the difference between X=127, Y=127 (centered) and the reported position X=127, Y=63 (half-speed down) as a "half-speed down" movement command every time it checks for inputs.


Scott

[Le Chuck]

Maybe Le Chuck can test a KADE+ on an XBox to confirm the range of motion works with the games you want.   

Scott

I have an Xbox?    I know 100% serious cherios no joke it works on a PS3.  Never tried it on an xbox. 

[Xiaou2]

The problem with using an optical solution, is that it can easily get de-calibrated...  and since the original games do not have an optical calibration mechanism. .. it will not work well at all.   A few others have built optical yokes, and have regretted it.

 Its far better to hack an analog joystick for the tracking.

 You can pick up some nice thick-tooth gears at stevens international hobby.  They are often sold at local hobby shops.  They are green in color.

 You also do not need ball bearings.  A simple ball-less press-bearing,  should be perfectly fine... as thats what the original used... and the originals dont really have any issues with that.

 I also suggest using real spring blad leaf swiches.  Not microswitches with blades on them.  You wont be able to fire as smoothly... and will suffer high fatigue,  with microswitchs in the buttons.

 You also dont want to use those momentary switches. .. as they are too stiff (spring force too great), not comfortable, and not built for this kind of repeated fire application.

 The original also uses rubber bumpers for the end of travel.   This is typical on most all high-leverave arcade controllers.   The bumper absorbs most of the shock forces,  keeping the assemblies from self-destruction.
(Any other material would be torn to shreds in a few uses)

 I recommend studying a real starwars yoke,  and or checking out the manuals diagrams.

Reinventing the wheel can be fun... but it often takes ma y revisions before you even catch up to tbe proven original designs.

[Xiaou2]

Forgot to add... u will need to angle the handles, as your wrists wont travel far e enough without that change.

 You also must consider the leverage forces on tbe wooden assembly.   A high power jerk in excitement. .. can tear the tbing apart,  if not well connected, braced, strengthened.

[HairyDVD]

Lots of very good comments and suggestions.
I will look into kade options with pots as mouse looking less attractive now.  Also simplyfying like original sounds good.

Back to drawing board - will have a root in my garage and see what may be usefull

[HairyDVD]

Just had a look on the Kade+ thread.

Anyone know where I can source in the uk?

The board that I'm using is the MattairTech MT-DB-U4.

NOTE: If you order this board, select the 16 MHz clock and ATMEL DFU (FLIP) bootloader options.

A direct link to website would be very useful please.

[jdbailey1206]

A direct link can be found in the first post of PL1's kadestick build.  Mattair Tech is out of stick unless PL1 knows of somewhere else to purchase them you may be out of luck.

[HairyDVD]

I saw the link on the Kadestick build at https://www.mattairtech.com/index.php/development-boards/atmega32u4-usb-development-board-arduino-compatible.html but I live in the UK and that vendor / supplier is out of stock.  Is there anything compatible in the UK - I think Degenatrons is from the UK, he or one of the Kade crew may know of a compatible uk vendor.  Its not that I dont like ordering International, its just the amount of time it takes to arrive and sometimes the extortionate shipping costs.

[PL1]

Generic Eric mentioned that the MattairTech board is currently out of stock.

He ordered a more widely available atmega32u4 board and will (hopefully) let us know if it works with the hex, the correct bootloader option, associated loading software/procedures and correct pins.


Scott

[Generic Eric]

Generic Eric mentioned that the MattairTech board is currently out of stock.

He ordered a more widely available atmega32u4 board and will (hopefully) let us know if it works with the hex, the correct bootloader option, associated loading software/procedures and correct pins.


Scott

Word.


I ordered a micro.  I studied the schematics & it looks it has all of the necessary inputs /connections.

It is on a slow boat,  so 2 to 4 weeks.  I ordered a couple of pots too. 

I'll happily share what I learn.

[jdbailey1206]

Maybe Generic Eric should share what board he is using and where it can be found.   

[Generic Eric]

Maybe Generic Eric should share what board he is using and where it can be found.   

I was on mobile at last entry.

I guess this is where I find out if I made the appropriate decision.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Pro-Micro-ATmega32U4-5V-16MHz-Replace-ATmega328-Arduino-Pro-Mini-/140972980117

I looked at another one, it seemed more of a direct match regarding pcb size.  But this was cheaper.

[PL1]

The only reason I didn't mention the specific board is that I'm not sure about the bootloader and load software part.

I suggest waiting until someone confirms that the hex will load properly so you don't waste money ordering boards/bootloaders that won't work for this.

I think Sharpfork may have picked up a few of the "atmega32u4 Pro Micro" ones from HK for testing, but don't recall if he tested them with the KADESTICK hex.


Scott

[Generic Eric]

The only reason I didn't mention the specific board is that I'm not sure about the bootloader and load software part.

I suggest waiting until someone confirms that the hex will load properly so you don't waste money ordering boards/bootloaders that won't work for this.

I think Sharpfork may have picked up a few of the "atmega32u4 Pro Micro" ones from HK for testing, but don't recall if he tested them with the KADESTICK hex.


Scott

thatsok.  What is done is done.  I should have added a disclaimer to my post too.

[PL1]

Just reviewed related posts on the private KADE Forum development thread for KADESTICK.

Jon said last year that he was planning on using these low cost boards for a KADE Loader-compatible version of the firmware.

Disclaimer: Haven't confirmed this board works with the hex.

Not sure how the KADE Loader version of the firmware is proceeding, but it's hard to beat that board price.   

It appears to be a knockoff of the Sparkfun Pro Micro here.

The board that Sharpfork said he was evaluating was this one. (currently out of stock)


Scott

[jdbailey1206]

The only reason I didn't mention the specific board is that I'm not sure about the bootloader and load software part.

I suggest waiting until someone confirms that the hex will load properly so you don't waste money ordering boards/bootloaders that won't work for this.

I think Sharpfork may have picked up a few of the "atmega32u4 Pro Micro" ones from HK for testing, but don't recall if he tested them with the KADESTICK hex.


Scott

thatsok.  What is done is done.  I should have added a disclaimer to my post too.

Hell $10 isnt going to break anyone just to find out what capabilities that little guy has.

[HairyDVD]

Just reviewed related posts on the private KADE Forum development thread for KADESTICK.

Jon said last year that he was planning on using these low cost boards for a KADE Loader-compatible version of the firmware.

Disclaimer: Haven't confirmed this board works with the hex.

Not sure how the KADE Loader version of the firmware is proceeding, but it's hard to beat that board price.   

It appears to be a knockoff of the Sparkfun Pro Micro here.

The board that Sharpfork said he was evaluating was this one. (currently out of stock)


Scott

Ordered on of the knock off ones from HK.  Worth a punt, sure someone on her will assist me in getting it configured.

[PL1]

Here's some more info for that board.

Jon has done some testing with it.

Tested and working with an adapted KADESTICK firmware already

He ran into some trouble with getting KADE Loader to put the board back into programming mode since it doesn't have an onboard reset button.

Jon found that he could get around that using the loader program AVRDUDE to erase and then program the firmware hex.
(Disclaimer: I haven't used AVRDUDE -- these procedures were typed up by Jon.  )

1) Connect AVR to USB port and wait for device to be recognised by system.
2) Bridge the GND and RST pins. This will put AVR into program mode for 7 seconds. You should see COM port shown against the device. Make note of the COM port.
3) Flash new firmware quickly or erase the existing firmware to buy more time.

To erase firmware in AVRDUDE:
avrdude -p atmega32u4 -c AVR109 -P COM4 -e

To flash hex in AVRDUDE:
avrdude -p atmega32u4 -c AVR109 -P COM4 -e -U flash:w:blink_test.hex

Change COM Port and filename as needed.

Not sure if or how much the source code would need to be modded to work with the board.

I PM'd Jon for assistance and permission concerning the hex he used for testing.

The other thing to do is trace the pins on the Mattairtech board to the input on the 32u4 using the schematic, then trace that 32u4 input to the pin on the sparkfun board -- the HK board is a knockoff of this board.

If Jon grants permission to share the modified hex, I'll trace/map the pinouts and make a step-by-step tutorial in the KADESTICK thread.

AFAIK, the pullup resistor isn't needed for this board/bootloader.


Scott

[jdbailey1206]

So are there any comprible boards to those that are not in stock?  Can we use any atmega32u4 boards?

[PL1]

So are there any comprible boards to those that are not in stock?  Can we use any atmega32u4 boards?

Here's some more info for that board.

Jon has done some testing with it.

Tested and working with an adapted KADESTICK firmware already

. . .
Not sure if or how much the source code would need to be modded to work with the board.

I PM'd Jon for assistance and permission concerning the hex he used for testing.

Awaiting Jon's reply since he knows the code and has several similar boards IIRC.


Scott

[jdbailey1206]

So are there any comprible boards to those that are not in stock?  Can we use any atmega32u4 boards?

Thank you for pointing that out Scott.  My mind is fried from working 14 hours and getting 3 hours of sleep due to my newborn.  At least you take pity on me.  I know my daughter doesnt.

[PL1]

No problem.  Figured you were either tired, distracted, or both.   

Since there appears to be some interest in using the knockoff Pro Micro boards as KADESTICKs, I just placed an order for one here on Amazon for $10.

Checked how much more it would cost for fast vs. free shipping -- $50.   

Which will arrive first -- Generic Eric's slow boat from China or my slow boat from Thailand?   


Scott

[Generic Eric]

No problem.  Figured you were either tired, distracted, or both.   

Since there appears to be some interest in using the knockoff Pro Micro boards as KADESTICKs, I just placed an order for one here on Amazon for $10.

Checked how much more it would cost for fast vs. free shipping -- $50.   

Which will arrive first -- Generic Eric's slow boat from China or my slow boat from Thailand?   


Scott

Well, it appears they are initiating preparations to dispatch the pcb.  I'm not sure if that means its leaving the warehouse, driving to the dock or at the pier to be loaded into the boat, or if the boat has is backing out of the dock.

[Le Chuck]

No problem.  Figured you were either tired, distracted, or both.   

Since there appears to be some interest in using the knockoff Pro Micro boards as KADESTICKs, I just placed an order for one here on Amazon for $10.

Checked how much more it would cost for fast vs. free shipping -- $50.   

Which will arrive first -- Generic Eric's slow boat from China or my slow boat from Thailand?   


Scott

Well, it appears they are initiating preparations to dispatch the pcb.  I'm not sure if that means its leaving the warehouse, driving to the dock or at the pier to be loaded into the boat, or if the boat has is backing out of the dock.

Having its last cigarette behind a court house while waiting for the family to pay for the bullet. 

[jdbailey1206]

Since there appears to be some interest in using the knockoff Pro Micro boards as KADESTICKs, I just placed an order for one here on Amazon for $10.

There it is!  Found that one on amazon two nights ago and could 't find it again.  Ill have to order one and see what I can do with it.

[Generic Eric]

No problem.  Figured you were either tired, distracted, or both.   

Since there appears to be some interest in using the knockoff Pro Micro boards as KADESTICKs, I just placed an order for one here on Amazon for $10.

Checked how much more it would cost for fast vs. free shipping -- $50.   

Which will arrive first -- Generic Eric's slow boat from China or my slow boat from Thailand?   


Scott

I received mine today. :