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Author Topic: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch  (Read 17065 times)

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Monkee

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CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« on: March 02, 2014, 06:55:38 am »
Hi guys, I was looking into Retroarch and it seems that it accepts custom resolution and refresh. This will induce that we can use bsnes, mednafen or Nestopia in Pixel Perfect!
They are the best emulators for the Snes, PCE and Nes so far and it could be really amazing to finally have them with the proper resolutions!

Does anyone tried to use Retroarch in combination with CRT_emudriver and succeeded in doing so?

Thanks a lot.

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2014, 07:12:12 am »
I got some infos from the Retroarch team and they don't have any CRT so they are not interested in multi-modelines per system.
So the best you can do so far is to choose one custom modeline/resolution per system...  :'(

What a pity, all the best console emulators packed inside one and we cannot profit from it in pixel perfect. :cry:

tisurame

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2014, 01:36:56 pm »
Which Retroarch version are you using? The last version crashes on startup on Windows XP 64-bits.

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 01:46:29 pm »
Which Retroarch version are you using? The last version crashes on startup on Windows XP 64-bits.
I'm using the version 20131013.

Calamity

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2014, 05:33:01 am »
Hi Monkee,

I got some infos from the Retroarch team and they don't have any CRT so they are not interested in multi-modelines per system.
So the best you can do so far is to choose one custom modeline/resolution per system...  :'(

What a pity, all the best console emulators packed inside one and we cannot profit from it in pixel perfect. :cry:

It is not the end of the world.

Not only they're not interested in CRT users, it's worse than that. One of the RetroArch devs is well known in 4chan /vr/ for referring to the CRT enthusiasts as a "bunch of retards". I'm sure I will regret bringing that sh*t here, but just for the record, you can check this: http://archive.foolz.us/vr/thread/1091384/

(before you ask, I swear I was never involved in that thread, just found it weeks later in one of my "google sessions").
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 05:37:15 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2014, 06:39:53 am »
Hi Calamity,

I see.  ;)
Does someone maybe know where to get infos or a list of console emulators that support automatic resolution switching? Because Groovyume is awesome but the mess cores are still not up to the best "single console emulators".
For example, I only succeeded in getting the automatic resolution switching with Zsnes or Mess for the Snes and it's clearly not as accurate and compatible compared to Snes9x or Bsnes...
« Last Edit: March 08, 2014, 07:41:12 am by Monkee »

ID4

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2014, 03:06:08 pm »
Hi Monkee,

I got some infos from the Retroarch team and they don't have any CRT so they are not interested in multi-modelines per system.
So the best you can do so far is to choose one custom modeline/resolution per system...  :'(

What a pity, all the best console emulators packed inside one and we cannot profit from it in pixel perfect. :cry:

It is not the end of the world.

Not only they're not interested in CRT users, it's worse than that. One of the RetroArch devs is well known in 4chan /vr/ for referring to the CRT enthusiasts as a "bunch of retards". I'm sure I will regret bringing that sh*t here, but just for the record, you can check this: http://archive.foolz.us/vr/thread/1091384/

(before you ask, I swear I was never involved in that thread, just found it weeks later in one of my "google sessions").

Lo siento Calamity pero no puedo aguantarme ... "bunch of retards"? ese tio es un jilipollas de PRO, ni me molesto en probar su emulador.

Para SNES yo uso snes9x, y para nes el vnes y con ambos puedo usar los modelines correctos, asi que ...

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2014, 03:18:54 pm »
How do you get proper modelines with snes9x ID4? I'm seriously interested.  :D

cyb

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2014, 02:59:30 am »
I just used 1280x240 resolution in retroarch and adjust the aspect ratio accordingly. It works surprisingly well for most systems.

don't believe me? here's a (bad) pic of castlevania chronicles on mednafenpsx in retroarch.

http://imgur.com/2XsBfpI

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2014, 07:32:22 am »
I just used 1280x240 resolution in retroarch and adjust the aspect ratio accordingly. It works surprisingly well for most systems.
I do believe you Cyb, as long as the vertical resolution is 240 it's fine (works like the magic modelines it seems to me) but some games are in another vertical resolution and then it's screwed (and it's the same with the different refresh).

For example the Super Famicom can output 256x224@60; 256x239@50; 512x478@25 and 512x448@30 depending on the game...

Calamity

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2014, 09:08:30 am »
Magic modelines are a different thing, the 1234x value is actually a dummy number, the modeline is updated with a genuine resolution like 320x224 or 512x224 or whatever. So in general this is meant for integer scaling.

On the other hand, using an ultrawide resolution is a different approach. What you do is to apply fractional scaling on the x-axis and integer scaling on the y-axis. With GroovyMAME you can do this by using -cleanstretch 2. We call this "super" resolutions to differentiate from "magic" resolutions. But the idea is that: using an ultrawide resolution so you can't notice the horizontal fractional scaling, relying on the intrinsic blurriness of CRTs. We use this approach for Mednafen in Groovy Arcade too.

As long as the y-axis is kept with integer scaling, there's no problem to use 240p for all lower modes (224, 239p). Of course if a game decides to switch from 224p to 448i you're screwed.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2014, 09:10:40 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2014, 09:26:35 am »
Thanks for the clarification Calamity.

Is there any visual difference between magic and super resolutions on high-quality CRTs?

So then it seems that we can use emulators with only-one-custom-modeline-possibility (like mednafen and retroarch) as long as the game doesn't change it's resolution in-game, right?

What about the refresh rate though? Do you set it at 60 for all games under Mednafen (whereas it seems that some games runs at 59.922743)?

Also how do you handle systems with low (240p) and higher modes (480i or p) games?

Sorry I'm a bit lost with this thing...

cools

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2014, 11:40:07 am »
Even on high end CRTs super resolutions will work. When I was messing around with Groovy and originally requested the new cleanstretch ability I was inadvertently using super resolutions and couldn't see the difference. I've tried subsequently on non-arcade CRTs and they work flawlessly.

Best method is to bug the emulator authors to add resolution switching in.
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2014, 12:45:32 pm »
Best method is to bug the emulator authors to add resolution switching in.
I tried for both Retroarch et Mednafen but they doesn't seem that interested... I need your support! Let's all bug them together!  ;D

cools

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2014, 06:21:06 am »
Then use MESS/UME and bug report issues :)

I'm hardly surprised that those who repackage existing code aren't interested in its accuracy.
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2014, 10:26:27 am »
My sincere apologies for going off topic here:

But I had a look at that thread linked in Calamity's post and that Retroarch dev is one scary dude.

All I can say is YIKES!! And that I am super glad to be following Groovymame. That other thread well contrasted how awesomely helpful and an all-round genuinely nice guy Calamity is.

cools

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2014, 08:52:59 am »
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2014, 04:22:04 pm »
« Last Edit: April 11, 2014, 05:54:41 pm by Monkee »

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2014, 07:04:45 pm »
Calamity, which modeline are you using for Mednafen under Groovy Arcade? I'd like to try under Windows.

Also I guess, when using ultrawide resolutions, I have to deactivate the full screen, right?

Calamity

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2014, 12:29:59 pm »
I'd say it was 1280x224. I don't remember exactly but you this resolution allowed integer scaling on full screen, for Megadrive at least.

Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2014, 12:32:33 pm »
Thanks Calamity.
I thought 240p was good for all the sub 240p modes though? Why using 224p with this one?

Calamity

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2014, 01:10:08 pm »
Thanks Calamity.
I thought 240p was good for all the sub 240p modes though? Why using 224p with this one?

Because you need to have stretch-to-full-screen or whatever its name to mimic resolution switching for these console (256x, 320x, 640x -> 1280 (integer multiple). But as the height is 224p, if you use 240p then you'll get fractional stretching on the y axis and will look horrible.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2014, 02:55:47 pm »
Ok I get it.
What do you do though for systems who uses both 224 and 240p like the Snes, N64 or PSX?

Calamity

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2014, 03:48:25 pm »
You need to use 240p and find a way to enable integer scaling in the vertical and fractional on the horizontal. As far as I remember Mednafen had not such a setting. Retroarch should have it.

With GroovyUME this is done by -cleastretch 2.



Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2014, 03:56:12 pm »
Thanks again Calamity.

One last question concerning Groovymame, in a standard 15khz setup it seems that if I use 240p minimum for the YresMin_XML value (to follow your recommendation), I don't have the right resolution with 224p games... Do you know what could have gone wrong?

Here are the Mamemain et VMmaker.ini I'm using (I decided to not use the magic modelines but to create a list of the modelines I needed with Romcenter)
https://mega.co.nz/#!7lQFHYrR!PuiZqNFs3dZCADAN0rZHJYVyMH049SGGlFqU6m0dTQo
« Last Edit: April 13, 2014, 04:21:36 pm by Monkee »

Calamity

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2014, 04:57:12 pm »
GroovyMAME will pick 240p but will use 224 lines, leaving black borders up and down as required, so although you see 240p being reported in the ui it's actually rendering the native resolution, as it becomes obvious when you see the picture.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2014, 12:17:31 pm »
Thanks Calamity, I'll try again, play and see the result.  ;)

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2014, 02:46:53 pm »
Then use MESS/UME and bug report issues :)
I'd love to but the PSX and N64 core of MESS (just to take an example) are just not working at all with commercial games!

We cannot deny that Retroarch has incorporated all the best of the consoles emulators up to the 64bit era (so until the end of the 15khz)!

Now one of the devs has a PC CRT so things are getting really better but due to the fact it's a 31khz CRT, there is no chance for resolution switching on the fly because he doesn't need it and that's the only thing missing that we need for it to be perfect for us...

The result is that if today you want to use the most accurate consoles emulators of the 15khz era, you cannot get a perfect result on a 15khz screen!

So the question is: When we'll we have a GroovyArch?  ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 02:50:58 pm by Monkee »

cools

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2014, 04:44:25 pm »
Accurate != working.

RetroArch is an abomination IMO, but let's avoid that discussion. The code for SwitchRes is available, get the devs to incorporate it into their frontend if you can.
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

Monkee

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2014, 06:48:27 pm »
Accurate != working.
That's what I'm also talking about. I'm all about accuracy and so far those cores: Bsnes, Nestopia, GenesisPlusGX, Mednafen PC-engine and Mednafen PSX are the most accurate ones available for those systems (way above Mess for most of them, see here). Where can you get them all packaged? RetroArch.

I'm not here to promote anything and I share your desire for a Mess-rule-them-all, but for the moment it's not the case at all and I'm sad that the most accurate emulators out there for those systems are not entirely compatibles with 15khz screens.

If I'm talking about RetroArch, it's mainly because it has all of them packaged so it should be easier to get the all package CRT-friendly done once and for all.

The code for SwitchRes is available, get the devs to incorporate it into their frontend if you can.
Great idea. I'm doing that.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2014, 07:28:17 am by Monkee »

sean_skroht

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2014, 11:40:35 pm »
RetroArch is an abomination IMO, but let's avoid that discussion.

Shhh quiet dude. You'll bring the wrath of a certain abusive Retroarch dev upon us all if you're not careful. :)

Yeltsew7

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2014, 06:25:49 pm »
No, he won't come here.  He's too busy yelling at people on /vr/.

Haze

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2014, 11:42:14 am »
No, he won't come here.  He's too busy yelling at people on /vr/.

If you say Driverman enough times....

(different lunatic, but lunatic all the same, and fans/developers of the project seem to like resorting to multiple names in the same conversation just to make it look like there are more of them)


Yeltsew7

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2014, 12:44:07 pm »
Driverman VROOM VROOM


sean_skroht

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2014, 07:47:15 pm »
Haze.

I read the thread posted by Cools here and I have to say mate, I admired your restraint. It wouldn't have been easy.
You were provoked, pushed and abused and I liked the way you explained your stance on certain issues and why you do things. You came out of it looking like the more rational individual here.
Keep up the good work on your projects dude.

SyrianJoe

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2014, 01:24:15 am »
To answer the question, no RA does not work with CRT_emudriver.

RA does have several options for CRT monitor users. For instance try this:

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Display_FAQ#240p.2F480i_Emulation_on_a_CRT_Monitor
« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 01:34:23 am by SyrianJoe »

bulbousbeard

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2014, 09:43:35 am »
Doesn't RetroArch force everything to 60hz? That right there kind of makes it useless, because almost no hardware actually ran at 60hz. You're starting off inaccurate. The SNES, for example, runs at like 60.0984hz. The RetroArch developers don't really care about running games properly.

Personally, I'd rather stick with GroovyUME and just wait it out. It's true that MESS's SNES emulation isn't as good as BSNES's, and it's true that its Genesis emulation isn't the best (although it does run a lot of games just as well as any emulator), but it's improving basically every week. It won't be long before MESS emulates all these systems just as well as any of the standalones. Also, the sacrifices you have to make to basic emulator quality to use a standalone emulator just aren't worth it. Any standalone emulator you use is going to have more input lag than GroovyMAME with framedelay, and there's a high likelihood that it'll run like crap on a CRT (if it works at all).

Standalone emulators don't have any real staying power, because they tend to be developed by only one person, and they eventually get abandoned/outdated, and MAME/MESS will just keep plugging along.

In 2014, who uses Callus instead of MAME? I remember in 1999 when people on IRC told me that MAME was garbage for playing Neo Geo games and that we'd always be using NeoRageX. See what I mean?

« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 09:51:24 am by bulbousbeard »

Calamity

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2014, 11:55:32 am »
To answer the question, no RA does not work with CRT_emudriver.

Well, sure it works.

RA does have several options for CRT monitor users. For instance try this:

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Display_FAQ#240p.2F480i_Emulation_on_a_CRT_Monitor

That solution is specific for 31 kHz CRTs. Superwide modes do work for 15 kHz too, but here you need genuine video mode switching in order to change from progressive to interlaced scan.

I gather that you need to create many variants of these resolutions at different refresh rates, to cover the spectrum of vertical refresh rates required for emulation, and assign them manually to each game target.

BTW how do you guys get smooth scrolling with RA? I'm trying here on my laptop with gpu hard sync, either d3d9 or gl, and I can't seem to get even Capcom games (59.63 vs 60 Hz) to scroll smoothly, using Street Fighter Alpha 3 scrolling text for testing.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2014, 11:57:10 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

SyrianJoe

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2014, 06:13:31 am »
Doesn't RetroArch force everything to 60hz? That right there kind of makes it useless, because almost no hardware actually ran at 60hz. You're starting off inaccurate. The SNES, for example, runs at like 60.0984hz. The RetroArch developers don't really care about running games properly.

RA runs at whatever Hz your display does. You can set a custom resolution and refresh rate, so you can put whatever you want. Also, I'm not sure if the difference between 60hz and 60.0984hz is noticeable by humans. It is only a 0.164 % difference. I would like to see double blind tests to determine if humans can see the difference.

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Also, the sacrifices you have to make to basic emulator quality to use a standalone emulator just aren't worth it. Any standalone emulator you use is going to have more input lag than GroovyMAME with framedelay, and there's a high likelihood that it'll run like crap on a CRT (if it works at all).

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Input_lag

Well, there's KMS mode in Linux. Combined with a wired controller, CRT monitor it should give about as low input lag as you can get with an emulation setup. I do not know how it compares to GroovyMame, but it may be equivalent without having to use special equipment and setup that GroovyMame requires. I have not tried any of this myself mind you, as I'm just a lazy Win7 user. I'm just posting what I've read elsewhere.

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BTW how do you guys get smooth scrolling with RA? I'm trying here on my laptop with gpu hard sync, either d3d9 or gl, and I can't seem to get even Capcom games (59.63 vs 60 Hz) to scroll smoothly, using Street Fighter Alpha 3 scrolling text for testing.

Are you using the LCD screen of your laptop or something else? If your laptop display, then welcome to LCDs. Motion and smooth scrolling should be mostly upto your display. You should connect it to a CRT monitor. There is also the option of a 120hz monitor with blackframe insertion. RA has that option in video options I believe. Have not tried it.

My scrolling test btw is Super Mario All-Stars game selection screen.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2014, 06:20:44 am by SyrianJoe »

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Re: CRT_Emudriver + Retroarch
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2014, 07:47:02 am »
I think the smooth scrolling deal is kind of a matter of your monitor.  On my laptop, I get screen splitting all the time.  I plugged it into my friends Samsung monitor and it didn't look as bad.  I don't have a working 31Khz monitor, so I can't test anything on that.

  
 

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