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Author Topic: 80's driving game  (Read 55952 times)

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Felsir

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #120 on: March 25, 2014, 05:49:46 pm »
I'm starting to get the hang of FF finally.  If you have the capacity to read them via XNA (it's not hard, I can show you how in DX at least) effect files are the way to go.  Then if users don't like the effect or want to change a bunch of stuff they can supply their own. 

Most of it could be handled via mamehooker, but in all honesty FF is better handled at the game level if at all possible just to ease the complexity of the user's setup.  We do it that way with emulators because emulator devs are all gung ho about cross-platform portability and FF is almost exclusively a windows thing. 
Once I get to the FFB, I'll definetly contact you for the inside info :-)

Your video is set to private, so we can't see it.  ;)
Oops. Fixed that.


From your description though it sounds like Microsoft still doesn't get that we'd like to draw 2d and 3d stuff interchangeably.... been struggling with that issue since dx8. 
Yeah, I need to switch between shaders and vertices- the way it is set up now, I can do all sprites in one batch. I also generate spritesheets at the start of the level to keep all sprites in one bit of texture memory. I reach up to 1500 frames per second unthrottled - if I draw vertices and sprites mixed, it can add up to 300 spritebatches and the framerate drops down to 30-40 frames. Quite a performance hit (the rest of the calculations is the same so it's all down to the GPU there).

Howard_Casto

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #121 on: March 25, 2014, 06:01:27 pm »
That looks really good man.  I think I would just about make the bottom of the cliff wall angled to match the typical perspective of the road... then it wouldn't look so separated when you slow down. 

Yeah I know direct-X at least has always had an issue with that.  Pre-transformed vertices are the things you are supposed to use for displaying a gui over a 3d render, but depending upon the render order and your 3d world setup it'll kill your framerate dramatically and screw up any texture buffer you have in place. 

Nuexzz

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #122 on: March 25, 2014, 08:07:55 pm »
@Felsir" your work is awesome I wish you would be at the head of "The 90's Arcade Racer", hopefully when I finish with this note for the future (this is the forum to create the perfect arcade racer).

much luck in this "The 80's Racer"  :notworthy: :cheers:

Xiaou2

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #123 on: March 26, 2014, 12:55:18 am »
I Apologize for being a bit rough earlier.  I was incorrect on a few points as well.  I was a bit fired up because of the recent Butchery of Strider.   One of many horrific remakes,  from people whom dont have any artistic skills.

 Turns out Outrun has a lot of noon shading, because shadows were easier to do in this manor.  However, I still think it looks far better to have a diagonal light source.

 About bridges / cliffs...   I think you just have to draw it similar to Afterburner...   where you are drawing large blocks of graphics layered on top of each other.

 In a Marble Madness remake that I helped work on..   the programmer made it so the game would load:

a)  Top tile             At position      x,y
b)  wall tile line      from                x,y  to  x,y
c)  Bottom tile       At position      x,y

d)  Shadow tiles & Wall artwork tiles..  could also be positioned over the top of the wall tiles.

e)  The field was drawn from rear to front, layer after layer...   with the marble (and other baddies/stuff) being placed in the appropriate depth & positions..  before drawing the rest of the tiles.  After this.. I think he only updated an area around the things that moved... so as to gain performance.

 While you probably dont have to approach quite the same level of complexity of MM..  by adding actual large size sprites - such as chunks of rock.. or large tile pillars..  you can probably create a very good effect.   Especially with good shading and a few textural tile shifts.     The game will need actual 3d coordinates for this however,  which is actually a cool and good thing.. because it can create over and under passes, as well as draw things more realistically.

 You could also do some similar cheats, and only draw the areas that are visible.  If the road is covering them, no need to update them.

 Also, rather than draw an entire horizontal plane.. as often is the case..   some areas might only draw narrow chunks, and or erase areas..  use a mask?   and or draw using an 'eraser'... effectively zeroing out parts of the drawn area.

 Another cool thing about using actual 3d coordinates..  is easier stereoscopic 3d support  :)


Felsir

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #124 on: March 26, 2014, 04:02:18 am »
I Apologize for being a bit rough earlier. 
Apology accepted; as we dutch say "Zand erover" (I think the english version is "water under the bridge."?)

The major difference between Marble Madness and a race game is, that MM has for the most part a static backdrop (except for a few moving parts in the scenary) thus the marbles and enemies are basically the only objects that change. A masking strategy works in that context so there is no need to redraw the entire scene.
In the racegame on the other hand, -unless the car is not driving- every object moves. Keeping track of the masking areas is more costly than redrawing the scene since every sprite has to be redrawn anyway.
In a modern remake of MM one would draw the entire scene as you described first to a separate texture layer and have the GPU overlay the sprites at every redraw- which is the most efficient way of doing it.
 
Thus the "Afterburner" technique is indeed the technique I use for the driving game.

Another cool thing about using actual 3d coordinates..  is easier stereoscopic 3d support  :)
For stereoscopic 3D, I can simply draw the road twice with each section of the road an additional shift horizontal left or right depending on the distance. It is the same technique used in the Anaglyp mode of Rad Racer. For full head-tracking VR stereoscopic... well that's more for the 90s racer project  ;D

Xiaou2

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #125 on: March 26, 2014, 04:37:08 am »
90s?   Ehh... I prefer the 80s!   :)    Even if it looks sort of Paper 3d..   the effect of a 2d style game in 3d is actually quite awesome.   Jaw dropping actually.   I was fortunate enough to see and play  Continental Circus 3D  with the glasses still working...  and It blew my mind.   Smoke, car parts, tires,  spoilers...  were flying out of the screen almost every moment.   And the depth... really made the game so much more fun and interesting visually.   You can press f2 in mame to get 3d mode.   I turned on my old sega master system, with the 3d glasses & 3d game in... and looked at my pc monitor.   The sync isnt right...  so the 3d flips around a lot...  but its still worth it.   So breathtaking.


 Ok, so what I was tying to say before... is that your cars scale does not match the road lines.    Once you change view..   you will have to increase the size of the car to fit the road better.   OR.. you will have to move it inwards... which isnt as nice.   OR... you would have to change the drawing formula, for the perspective angles of the road.   Simply drawing more of less lines does not really work properly... to account for the viewpoint change.

 In your current version, top right..  you can fit 3 Lambos in one single lane.   A lane should only barely fit One car.

 In my play, I drew the top left, to show a more proper scale.   Bottom right, I was playing with colors and a cliff concept.. high in the cloudy icy blue mountains.    Of course, I got the scale wrong on that one.  heh.   Which should be at least 2 cars width.. maybe a little shoulder too.   Would be interesting to see 2 way traffic as well.

 Note the use of high contrast.  Very bright and saturated colors, with very dark shadows.   This is typical-bright day style of lighting.   On more over-cast / couldy days... colors are less saturated,  and less drastic contrast from light to shadows.

 As always, a fade to a more gray / blue hue, with reduced saturation in colors, the further things are into the screen.

 Sharper details close up, but more and more blur + less detail, as things are further away..   and or past the cameras focus point.   Which make a nice deep visual effect.


 Ive not been able to play the game yet, cause the PC needs repair... and laptop isnt powerful enough.   But dont get too hung up on graphics yet, as they can be redrawn later.  Get all the features, like intense traffic areas..  long Semi Trailers..  etc.

 I think the Afterburner style would work well for things like bridges and cliffs.   Maybe  use much larger images, or large images towers put together and then moved... that are located right under the main road.


Howard_Casto

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #126 on: March 26, 2014, 11:09:21 pm »
I Apologize for being a bit rough earlier. 
Apology accepted; as we dutch say "Zand erover" (I think the english version is "water under the bridge."?)

The major difference between Marble Madness and a race game is, that MM has for the most part a static backdrop (except for a few moving parts in the scenary) thus the marbles and enemies are basically the only objects that change. A masking strategy works in that context so there is no need to redraw the entire scene.
In the racegame on the other hand, -unless the car is not driving- every object moves. Keeping track of the masking areas is more costly than redrawing the scene since every sprite has to be redrawn anyway.
In a modern remake of MM one would draw the entire scene as you described first to a separate texture layer and have the GPU overlay the sprites at every redraw- which is the most efficient way of doing it.
 
Thus the "Afterburner" technique is indeed the technique I use for the driving game.

Another cool thing about using actual 3d coordinates..  is easier stereoscopic 3d support  :)
For stereoscopic 3D, I can simply draw the road twice with each section of the road an additional shift horizontal left or right depending on the distance. It is the same technique used in the Anaglyp mode of Rad Racer. For full head-tracking VR stereoscopic... well that's more for the 90s racer project  ;D

How about a perfectly square set of repeating tiles?  I would think that just a repeating pattern all the way down to the bottom of the screen would do.  You could also try a "fog of war" technique.  Make the "canyon" next to the cliff either white and full of fog or dark in the shadows and blend the cliff segments that way.  Although I'm not sure if you are using a simple color key or a full on alpha channel, so I don't know how well that'd work.  Pumping out that many textures has to take it's toll when you start doing fancy stuff like a full on alpha blending, so just some suggestions.

Felsir

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #127 on: March 27, 2014, 08:16:55 am »
I had a 2 hour commute for work today; the train was comfortable enough to do some coding so I refactored the drawing code. I only had ms-paint on my laptop so don't mind the crude graphics; those are just placeholders for now (those are stretchings and scaling some old test graphics anyway). Anyway, this is the result so far:

It still needs work, some graphical glitches occur but the basic code to have objects underneath the road- and fill the gap underneath the ground-plane functions. I did some optimizations so it runs smoothly (the occasional FPS dip on the video is due to the capture software).
« Last Edit: March 27, 2014, 09:26:11 am by Felsir »

Howard_Casto

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #128 on: March 27, 2014, 01:26:59 pm »
I don't see anything wrong with that.  Looks good to me.  Honestly I think the blending turned out more convincing than solid graphics would have anyway. 

I've got another question/ suggestion.  Are we going to see a background plate for these stages?  I think turbo outrun and a few other games had em.  Basically in front of your sky graphic you might have a cityscape or some mountains or what have you that kind of floated over the ground plane.  To keep them from looking static they would move a little bit depending upon how the road turned.  The trick of course would be how to handle transitions. 

Felsir

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #129 on: March 27, 2014, 04:25:52 pm »
I have coded 3 parallax layers for the background; I just don't have decent graphics to show for those yet. As you mentioned, I'm not yet certain about transitions. I've seen different methods varying from a slide below the horizon and after that popping back up with a new graphic or have a long curve sliding the background graphic out of the way. Something to think about ...

Howard_Casto

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #130 on: March 27, 2014, 09:31:19 pm »
Yeah.  I know from my 2k6 hacking that how it's done in that game is sort of like the first way you said.  Basically all the background plates are stretched into their full-upright position when entering the course and are squashed back down when you leave.... sort of like a pop-up book.  The "exit ramp" with the giant curve and the wall for the stage transitions is also quite intentional.... while you are taking that curve it transitions the sky and gets the next set pieces ready.  I've seen hills used for that as well.  You climb a big hill right before the goal and the backdrop falls below it, revealing the generic transition graphics once things level out. 

You know I've got an idea, but I don't know if it would be over-stepping my bounds or if it would even go well with the project.  It isn't something I advertise around here, but I'm a fairly decent landscape painter.  I haven't done it in a few years, but recently I've been meaning to get back into it.  Bought some new kit last year, haven't even cracked it open.  I'm wondering how backgrounds painted on canvas would look.  It would be tricky with the sprites, I would probably have to prep the canvas with magenta or something but it should be doable.  Maybe not the best idea for the whole game, but for a bonus stage or something it might look pretty good. 

Xiaou2

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #131 on: March 28, 2014, 07:03:42 am »
The effect is pretty cool, but the fog seems a little much.   Personally, I like sprite effects, so Im curious to know if it would be even better to do an enhanced  Power Drift  style of implementation...  ?     

 One thing that would be great, are things like seeing a bridge sweeping off to the distant left..   and or some giant mountain style sprites that scale up, that you end up going around.  (and through, using a dark tunnel effect)

 Id also like to see a floor graphic, so for example, when you get near the cliff edge, you can see a fuzzy high altitude landscape..  or a giant lake / ocean.

 Also, for graphical walls / cliffs..  it might be nice to make them a bit larger, and use varying sloping slant angles.   As if these are too 'vertical' in nature.. they dont look like real cliff faces.   If using larger sprites is too much... you might instead use a few different smaller sprites ,on that same line, to make up those larger sloped angular shapes.

 

Felsir

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #132 on: March 28, 2014, 04:00:32 pm »
Howard_Casto, sounds like a good idea (especially if that gets you back to painting!) we'll see how that painting fits in the game. I'll still thinking what the best way to handle the transition, I'll tinker with that a bit.

Xiaou2, the fog effect is one that I can control from 0% fog to zero visibility. Note that the video was a proof of concept and the cliff/rock graphics were thrown together. So the final graphics will probaby be more sloped and more varied than shown here.

I have been thinking of a Power Drift remake (don't think I have ever seen a PD remake?) however the underlying technique is entirely different from the pseudo3D employed here, so that may be for another time.


Xiaou2

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #133 on: March 29, 2014, 03:09:42 pm »
Howard_Casto, sounds like a good idea (especially if that gets you back to painting!) we'll see how that painting fits in the game. I'll still thinking what the best way to handle the transition, I'll tinker with that a bit.

Xiaou2, the fog effect is one that I can control from 0% fog to zero visibility. Note that the video was a proof of concept and the cliff/rock graphics were thrown together. So the final graphics will probaby be more sloped and more varied than shown here.

I have been thinking of a Power Drift remake (don't think I have ever seen a PD remake?) however the underlying technique is entirely different from the pseudo3D employed here, so that may be for another time.

 I thought about this more...

 When the rock wall comes into view... the one thing you notice right away, is that there is no mountain attached to it.  Its like a series of random pillars, rather than a mountain ledge.

 In order to take that away, you could use a horizontal drawing trick similar to the MM  vertical drawing trick I showed earlier.   Where on each line drawn, you can specify a  Beginning, middle1 (possibly a few varied middle parts),  and an End.

 Ex:

  A,B,Z
  A,BBBBBBBBBB,Z
  A,BCDBCD,Z
  A,CBCDEDCBCECBCDC,Z
 
 For short rows, such as details in flowers..etc..  you could make user-designed sections.  But for things like a mountain wall... you could specify a pattern type..  and it will just scale that pattern from small in the distance, and it will grow and expand that pattern until its large enough to fill the visible screen width.  Once its fully expanded... it will draw that same pattern on the visible screen.. but, it will put the user defined end tiles on the section you have specified...   (it will also drop the beginning "A" tile, and the ending "Z" tiles, because they are no longer needed / in view... until you specify things are going to close up again)

 Hmm, a more visual example:
(Note, this is Only ONE line scrolling down the screen.  Next lines drawn would vary the H value, so that the cliff edges
are different)


[                                  AZ                                   ]

[                               AH   HZ                               ]

[                      AcdeH               HedcZ                  ]

[            AcdefcdeH                         HedcfedcZ     ]

[AcdefcdefcdeH                                        HedcfeZ]

[cdefcdH                                                          He]


 Note that after the A tile  (slope inward)  and Z tile  (slope outward)  are off the screen.. they are no longer used or
needed to complete the mountain scaling illusion.  You could do the reverse to end the mountain area, but you would use a different tile than the starting A & Z tiles you originally used.

 So, as the line gets further down the screen, it expands the middle patten.  Once the pattern fully expands to fill the
whole line.. it then no longer draws the beginning & End  (A and Z).

 Each line drawn behind this line, will can have its own start and end tiles, to make the various shapes of the mountain sides.   Each line will use the same expanding pattern format.

 
 Eh, I think I explained it good enough.  Let me know what you think.


 Edit:

 Noticed that in practice, you may want middle tiles to be different, instead of a direct left to right mirror.  So it
instead be:

 A   pattern   H    J  pattern  Z

 Where H is the middle left side, and J is the middle right side  cliff face.

 This same pattern tech, could also be used for the underside of the road, for things like bridges and rock detail.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2014, 03:15:46 pm by Xiaou2 »

Howard_Casto

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #134 on: March 29, 2014, 04:57:03 pm »
Probably the cheapest and easiest way to fix something like that is to introduce the side of the cliff when you go into a sharp curve.  If you do that then you'll never see the other side of the cliff. 

Xiaou2

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #135 on: March 29, 2014, 09:00:38 pm »
Thats not the point.   The point IS being able to see it, and appreciate it.


Sjaak

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #136 on: March 30, 2014, 04:25:28 am »
I have coded 3 parallax layers for the background; I just don't have decent graphics to show for those yet. As you mentioned, I'm not yet certain about transitions. I've seen different methods varying from a slide below the horizon and after that popping back up with a new graphic or have a long curve sliding the background graphic out of the way. Something to think about ...

Maybe you could use a tunnel for transitions?

Felsir

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #137 on: March 30, 2014, 07:26:24 am »
...   Where on each line drawn, you can specify a  Beginning, middle1 (possibly a few varied middle parts),  and an End ...
I (think) understand what you're saying Xiaou2, but unfortunately it doesn't work that way. You want to add detail or additional sprites as the mountain comes closer, right? Here is why it doesn't quite work like that with sprites: because the sprites are gradually scaled towards the player it will be quite obvious that new sprites "pop up" between the other sprites- the distance in the pseudo3D racegame isn't "distant" enough to gradually add sprites inbetween. It would work with 3D meshes (in fact: it's actually used a lot in that field) where detail is added; the trick is that the mesh is improved once the detail is big enough to be visible.

Probably the cheapest and easiest way to fix something like that is to introduce the side of the cliff when you go into a sharp curve.  If you do that then you'll never see the other side of the cliff. 
Yeah, I'll probably used a stretched sprite technique (as used in the tulip fields) and obscure the emptyness by a curve and some strategic place trees.

Maybe you could use a tunnel for transitions?
That's also an option!

Xiaou2

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #138 on: March 30, 2014, 01:13:42 pm »
Not sure if it would be as bad as you think, with the other layers behind it.. plus the texture effect and speed..  but I know what you mean.    If we applied a sliding expansion, such as the other sprites are behind.. then you avoid the instant pop up..   which if Im not mistaken, is essentially what a mesh kind of does automatically.

 Also, note that the original Out Run game uses several sprites for a single image, when scaling.  The scaling detail would never be good enough on a low-res screen, to scale from small to large.. so they had to redraw the images at various points, to make the details look more appropriate at those distances.

 When looking at a game like Outrunners..  one thing that kind of ruins the game, is that the graphics are a bit too clean.  You see, with the original Outrun, there were limits on details, as well as more distortions.. and the monitor was smaller, with most likely a larger dot pitch...  thus the shadow mask cause even more distortions.   This helped to create texture in sprites and backgrounds, and simulated a more natural shading effect.. as well as Hid a lot of graphical issues, such as scaling details, jagged edges, etc.

 With Outrunners, these things jump out at you.  The longer field of road, and the lack of texture and shading.. means a more photographic look.. but without the shading to match it.. it looks flat and unrealistic.  About 10x more unrealistic than the original. Add to that the cartoon like cars.. and the cartoon like reaction of the cars (riding on two wheels.. sliding at 45 degrees on every turn.. even though skidding via loss of grip isnt supposed to be a full on power-slide..  )
and you have a clash of graphics, and clash of concepts.   IE: Original outrun is meant to represent realism... where as Outrunners cant make up its mind... and tries to mix realistic captures, with cartoony graphics...

 I think its very possible to make a non cartoony sprite racing game, with enhanced graphics..  but a lot more details have to be artistically worked out.  Its never going to be 100% realistic..  but thats the Charm of a sprite racer.  Its scaling look and un-natural speed, make it more fun and artistically interpretive.

 In many ways, the Original Outrun has outlasted many of the 3d modeled games.. not just because of the higher difficulty challenge.. and speed..  but because its interpretive look holds up better than low polygon counts, poor shading (low number of rays), and other graphical errors associated with poorly done 3d modeled technology.

 This is why something like an Oil painting cant be Out-Dated.  It is what it is.  There is no resolution.  There no need for perfection.  And its why oil paintings done well, are far more valued than mere photographs.  Most especially, if the artist has a very unique way of expression in his painting.

 I feel this is very relative, because your version is much more hi-res..  and can have the same kinds of issues of Outrunners.. if certain steps are not put in place.  Such as the noise filter, shading on hills, color shift and bluring in distant images...etc.

 Anyways, I hope to see you try something like a scaling mountain, as well as curving bridge.  See how well it can be done.

 Im also wondering if instead of scaling in parts.. simply draw the mountain in a psudo-3d..  such as using 1 small image in front, then two or three images next, then maybe 8 behind that.. until its the full length and size.  Again, not completely realistic.. but interesting, and probably would do the trick well enough to be fun and convincing, especially for an 80s racer level of technological capability. (if cost were no option back then)

 :)

Edit: Found this on the net.  Notice, not just horizontal lines, but vetical as well.. which help make the texture. Distant images are much more effected by these distortions, helping out the lack of shading and details.  Also, note that lines are smoother, like road lines.. as well as colors are more blended.  This was further enhanced, as the arcade monitors tended to get slightly out of focus.. as well as blurry from dust on the screen, trapped behind the monitor glass. Ive often wondered if some Devs actually glued the monitor focus to be slightly blurry on purpose, at the factory, to help smooth the images.   Also note, that this is probably a replacement monitor.  While the resolution is the same on the newwer models.. the dot pitch often was higher.. and so the shadowmask lines were thinner.. making a more clearner picture with less distortion than may have originally shipped out with.

 
 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 01:26:47 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #139 on: March 30, 2014, 01:37:41 pm »
Inspire  heh


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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #140 on: March 30, 2014, 07:02:41 pm »
Some interesting stuff here:

 http://www.blitzmax.com/Community/posts.php?topic=99346

 Cool 'bank' drawing shown.  Some other psudo 3d stuff too..  though, Id rather not see a Loop in outrun  heh

« Last Edit: March 30, 2014, 07:06:09 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #141 on: March 30, 2014, 07:43:57 pm »
Well done Felsir!  :applaud:  This game looks amazing.  Congratulations on having a go at this by yourself.   Makes me wish I had a driving cab.  Once you are done I think you'll need to build a full cabinet for this with matching artwork!

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #142 on: April 03, 2014, 08:41:34 am »
Well done Felsir!  :applaud:  This game looks amazing.  Congratulations on having a go at this by yourself.   Makes me wish I had a driving cab.  Once you are done I think you'll need to build a full cabinet for this with matching artwork!

Thanks Stuzza. Unfortunately I have no room for a driving cab (I had plans for a 10mx15m basement, but unfortunately the local building regulations didn't allow it -so I had to give up my arcade/homecinema dream).

Made some progress- most of it not visible so no new build yet.
Me and my brother took some photographs of my scalemodel Lamborghini as base for the car crashing animations, so I plan to have them in soon as well:

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #143 on: April 03, 2014, 10:41:58 am »
I'm loving this! Didn't think much of it when I first tuned in, but as I followed the posts, its gotten better & better. You're doing something I've wanted to see for a long time--taken an 80's game & used modern computing power to add a lot more to it, without losing the 80ness of it. I've always wished someone would do this, esp. with Battlezone. There was a running myth in my home town that if u kept heading for the volcano, you'd eventually get somewhere...different...was always kinda vague on just where  :dunno. I finally cracked a million points on that beautiful game, &, of course, never found anything.

I'll definitely want a copy of this when its done. Keep up the great work!  :applaud:
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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #144 on: April 03, 2014, 10:55:55 am »
Felsir, if you can send me some of the original car sprites I can start working on the rest of them. my username at gmail
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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2014, 04:30:42 pm »
 Cool.

 But please also include vertical perspective changes.

  In Outrun, there are levels where when going up hill..  the camera is in a different position, and you see move of a top view of the car.

 Often in the game, you will notice small vertical angle changes on hills as well.

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2014, 07:30:13 pm »
I think using the model as a guide is a good idea.  Maybe we should all buy some kits of our favorite cars and get to work?

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2014, 11:22:52 pm »
Good models with good photography and lighting, can often produce better results than 3d modeling...  partially because 3d modeling isnt always raytraced for 20 hrs per frame... and or depending on polygon counts, and modelers abilities.  Textures, as well as real world color depths.   3d models often tend to look too clean, as a result.

 Two problems exists however...

1)  You could spend hours of efforts to create graphics for a game..  and find out it wasnt worth it, because the gameplay never lived up to the expectations.   The programmer might often never finish it, and or may not have the ability to make it play well.   

 Sadly, Id learned this the hard way, spending 3 yrs on a project that never would be completed..  and never was playable.  Always promised that it would be "Fixed" later.. and when demanded game control to be fixed... programmer couldnt do it.

 On another venture..  Id given another programmer some ideas on his existing game, but realized that he wasnt up to the task.  He kept switching to doing a different game every time things got too challenging for him..  after 3rd game attempt, I jumped ship.

 IMO, its better to rough out the graphics, and get the game play and features down pat.  Then, there will be no shortage of artists willing to re-draw the graphics.

 2)  Lighting

 When making sprites for a game like this, the lighting has to be exactly the same.   If you put the light in a different spot, intensity, and or angle.. than the other persons models..   then the shading will not match the others..    and so each model will look out of place.

 You also have issues with contrast and shading.   Your can may have a very high contrast with super light brights... and very dark-darks..  where as others might shade with a more limited spectrum of mild highs, and medium darks.   And then you have color intensity as well..   such as a bright lime green - vs - a pale green.  Color intensities can create a very different look...  so if your car is very intense in color value... but all the other graphics are more mute (such as on a cloudy day),  then the car will look out of place.

 Its best if the artists are very adept at color and shading knowledge.. because thats the only chance that things will match up.   Otherwise, its better if one so-so artists, does his own full-game graphics in completion.  Or one Stellar artist, to do the full thing.


edit:

3)  Model Accuracy

 Looking at the model presented..  it appears the bottom may not be correct.  A lot of models are like that... because they do not figure you will care about the bottom much... being that its not visible.    You may want to see if you can get a more detailed model, or a 3d model thats accurate, and map the details onto the pictures.  And or use other photos, manuals, etc.. to get the needed information.

« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 11:37:22 pm by Xiaou2 »

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #148 on: April 07, 2014, 03:52:47 am »
I think using the model as a guide is a good idea.
Yeah, it works pretty good. It also enables me to work on the ingame effect using these als placeholders until the final art is there. I have the crash animations (flip, flat-spin, bump) working. It's a matter of getting the final sprites in before I release an update.

Maybe we should all buy some kits of our favorite cars and get to work?
That would be great :-) Looking forward to what Malenko is brewing...

Looking at the model presented..  it appears the bottom may not be correct.
What you see is the cover for the battery pack is missing. It kept falling out during photography (the locking mechanism is broken). It will be fixed in the sprite-creation-process. On the other hand: just don't crash your car in the game and you won't notice ;-)

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2014, 10:52:45 am »
I think using the model as a guide is a good idea.  Maybe we should all buy some kits of our favorite cars and get to work?


Seriously!  What scale?  Which angles?

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #150 on: April 07, 2014, 11:50:22 am »
Seriously!  What scale?  Which angles?
This post has the countach base file attached to it:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137927.msg1426502.html#msg1426502
A few posts above this one you can see the flip animation frames, that I currently use as a reference.

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #151 on: April 07, 2014, 12:01:03 pm »
Seriously!  What scale?  Which angles?
This post has the countach base file attached to it:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,137927.msg1426502.html#msg1426502
A few posts above this one you can see the flip animation frames, that I currently use as a reference.

right-o.  If this was to become a thing that could be done, how specific would we have to be for the angles?  Or would the same general angles as viewed in your post be sufficient?

Call me crazy, but is there any way to use a pictures from a 3d model to incorporate into the game?  Wow...that could be cool. 

I'm glad to see this is progressing.  I hope to play it one day.  Have you considered mocking up some sideart and marquee for this?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 01:33:45 pm by Generic Eric »

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #152 on: April 07, 2014, 01:56:05 pm »
dunno what I did, but I downloaded the game to my work PC, and I dont see a track editor.
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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #153 on: April 07, 2014, 03:00:48 pm »
dunno what I did, but I downloaded the game to my work PC, and I dont see a track editor.
Yeah, I removed the track editor from the package, I had the "cliff" code working but not yet in the editor so it saved incorrectly formatted levels.
Also the structure of the levels has changed. Next version will have an updated track editor (if you made a level, hold on to it: the new editor should still load it).

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #154 on: April 07, 2014, 03:08:31 pm »
right-o.  If this was to become a thing that could be done, how specific would we have to be for the angles?  Or would the same general angles as viewed in your post be sufficient?

Call me crazy, but is there any way to use a pictures from a 3d model to incorporate into the game?  Wow...that could be cool. 

I'm glad to see this is progressing.  I hope to play it one day.  Have you considered mocking up some sideart and marquee for this?
The angles correspond roughly to the perspective of the road (assuming you mean the angle of perspective?) if you mean the angle of the rotation of the model while steering; the same general angle will do.

I might make a vector version of the logo for use on marquee and sideart (well, in my early years on BYOAC I did custom sideart anyway, I even created a vector car...)

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #155 on: April 07, 2014, 11:25:20 pm »
I've never really seen that done in a racing game, at least not a whole stage and it seems like it would make a good final track.... if you go off the road you either run into a wall or fall off a cliff... either way you are screwed.

The original Test Drive (circa 1987) did this. It was pretty unforgiving as I remember it, since there was no shoulder on either side and only one lane in each direction. With the narrow road and the wall to your right, pretty much every curve was a blind one.

OP, kudos on the game thus far. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished product.

Endaar

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #156 on: April 07, 2014, 11:47:03 pm »
Man why is it we all decide to work on our cool stuff at once?  I want to work on this, I want to work on 2k6, I want to build a model and scan it.  Can someone invent a 48 hour day?

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #157 on: April 08, 2014, 06:56:56 am »
Can someone invent a 48 hour day?
Yes please!

Got some better rock graphics in. I don't have capture software on my laptop so I made a quick video with my mobile phone.

The video also shows the spin/flip/fall animation with the placeholders (the flip is a bit exaggerated- mainly for testing).
The screenshots give a better idea of the graphics, but seeing it move is way better.
Graphics for this level that are in progress: tunnel, "warning falling rocks" sign and a guardrails.

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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #158 on: April 08, 2014, 07:33:14 am »
lookin good! Cant wait to get the new track editor so I can finish up my course and maybe start a new one :)
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Re: 80's driving game
« Reply #159 on: April 08, 2014, 01:03:05 pm »
Looking much nicer.  :)

 A minor gripe... but its annoying...    can you fix the line dividers on the road?    Where the car is, you currently can fit about 3 to 4 cars width from the diving line to the edge of the road.   Its ruins the scale of things.

 A little bit of shoulder is ok... and welcome, in some areas.


 On the above picture... do not forget the shadows, as well as the texture under the rocks probably shouldnt be merely road.  It should be something like a rock color at minimum (past the shoulder),  and or some gravely surface.