Spy Hunter Sound Effects - MAME

[spyhunter]

Ok so, apparently not many people know about this or it would have been fixed over a decade ago, but sounds in Spy Hunter are not correct.

Oil and Smoke are the most off, but so are the missile launch and the chopper and machine guns are not 100%.  Even the bumping into other cars is not right, it has a cheesy weak sound to it.

Please tell me someone knows of this and it can be fixed?

I would like to play it more often, now that I figured out how to get the car to purr along down the road in high gear.

Here's what I did, I  changed the P1 Pedal 1 Inc to a button, which I believe just removes that particular control, then I had to reverse the pedal analog control because for some reason it gets reversed and wala, you cruise quite nicely down the road in either gear!  The control stick (XBOX 360 wireless) still controls the speed, but without touching the stick, she barrels down the highway!  I also set all of the analog to the lowest possible setting to make it much less touchy.  Please let me know if this helps anyone...  And let me know about the sound effects in question.

SH

[ark_ader]

Ok so, apparently not many people know about this or it would have been fixed over a decade ago, but sounds in Spy Hunter are not correct.

Oil and Smoke are the most off, but so are the missile launch and the chopper and machine guns are not 100%.  Even the bumping into other cars is not right, it has a cheesy weak sound to it.

Please tell me someone knows of this and it can be fixed?

I would like to play it more often, now that I figured out how to get the car to purr along down the road in high gear.

Here's what I did, I  changed the P1 Pedal 1 Inc to a button, which I believe just removes that particular control, then I had to reverse the pedal analog control because for some reason it gets reversed and wala, you cruise quite nicely down the road in either gear!  The control stick (XBOX 360 wireless) still controls the speed, but without touching the stick, she barrels down the highway!  I also set all of the analog to the lowest possible setting to make it much less touchy.  Please let me know if this helps anyone...  And let me know about the sound effects in question.

SH

If the Mamedevs actually concentrated on fixing the classic games and their arcade accuracy (as their mandate suggests) instead of adding hundreds of worthless Mah-jong games for the hell of it, our hobby would be in a better place. Which might have something to do with coding ability or lack of interest.  Maybe Mah-jong games are easier to implement?   

It took several requests and several years to fix Steel Talons, which I believe Phil Bennett sorted it out in 2 seconds.  Maybe you should email him, as he seems the most capable.      

[chopperthedog]

Are you comparing the sounds from memory via a set of PC speakers that have a tweeter and sub or is this in and original cab with original full range old school speaker along with an amp that doesn't add any coloring?


good day.

[spyhunter]

I don't know where you are going with this...  I know what the real sounds are from my cockpit machine and playing it since I was 9 years old!

Over the course of more than a decade I've played the Mame version on numerous different computers and speaker combinations...  I always thought it was on the designers list to fix, and then they just never did fix it!

SH

[Fursphere]

chopper is just making sure you're doing an accurate 1:1 comparison.   If you've got an original working spy hunter cockpit, i'll trust your judgement on the sound effects.

[Xiaou2]

This does bring up some interesting points...

  Speakers in an open air cabinet will sound vastly different that that of a speaker that is boxed and or ported.   Certain cabinets will actually resonate.  Thats something that does not wanted with typical listening to music.. but with a video game, it can add some really interesting and cool effects.

 The volume of the game is also a factor...  because if the volume is too low, the resonation may not occur, or not be as pronounced.


 The other main thing I wanted to point out... is the means to check accuracy...


 If you were to use a real cabinet, you could run a mame PC version outside of the machine, and fish some speaker wire to the cabinets speakers.
Keeping the cab closed up, and the pc being outside.. to maintain the same air volume and shape...  you could then alternate between the real machines sounds, and the mame sounds.  Put a mic or holographic stereo mic set, where your head would be.. and comparing the recorded difference.

 From the recordings, you then can tell, with very high degree of accuracy, what sounds are off.

 You might also be able to make a simulator, to replicate the sound of the full cabinet, on your modern audio speakers.

 Though, I think that should only be optional... because many people still use, and or build exacting replicas of cabinets... so wouldnt
want the effect as the direct and only output method.

 I do have a SH, but its an upright.  I dont have a spare pc set up yet, good quality mics, and or possibly the time right now.. to do this experiment.
I also know a few collectors whom have the sitdown cab as well.

 Of course, this can be done with any cab -vs- mame setup.

[Xiaou2]

 Adding to the post, I thought Id mention a few other things...

  If you go on youtube, grab some good headphones, and listen to some of the Holographic audio recordings.

 In Holographic audio, they use 2 mic's, mounted to a human head shaped object..  which helps to capture audio the exact way in which
it would be heard by the ears, in the correct distances, timings, angular reflections, and auditory overlapping.    The effect can be jaw dropping.   It can literally make you feel like you are somewhere else.   It can give sound effect and feeling, that blows away the very best Surround sound systems + movies.   And honestly, Should be used on games and movies, for much greater impact.

 
 Now.... about todays Speakers and Audio solutions...


 These days, they are all about making as much profit as possible, and with labor being more expensive, material & overhead costs being higher, and environmental issues... they rarely produce the same high quality speakers that were made in the past.

 The other thing you must know... is that all PC audio isnt created equal.  The old soundblaster audio cards I have, will blow all the onboard audio chipsets away.   The onboard stuff tends to be missing a huge range of frequencies, and the accuracy of the sounds that are produced.. and not that good.  Its very mid-rangy, even if you tweak their EQ.  You lose the crystal clear highs, and the deep rumbling lows.

 PC speakers themselves, are very limited...  and new home theater audio, is matching the trend, of using very small drivers & enclosures... and then one large box subwoofer.   However, this setup will not produce all the frequency ranges.  A good 10"  woofer, will be much more accurate and powerful, in representing the true bass sounds.   A subwoofer isnt meant to be used for accurate music, and is neither sensitve, nor is built for clean, clear, mid to low range woofer sound spectrum.  Its merely meant for the range below the woofers typical output... and mostly for special effect, rather than truthful representation.

 Efficiency...

 Due to environmental concerns... they are increasing the efficiency of speakers.. so they take less power to drive.  This seems like a good thing... but, it can actually be very much the opposite.  Much like putting a stylus on a piece of glass... theres very low friction, and its very easy to move around... BUT, that makes it more difficult to control the pen... so your handwriting and drawings, tend to be very sloppy.  The friction of natural paper, means that you will have to use a bit more force to overcome the friction.. but it also will help you come to a graceful and controlled stop.. without sliding far past the intended stopping point.

 With speakers, greater magnet strength equates to greater control of the woofer.  Greater accelerations, braking/directional changes, and even overall power.   This creates things like  "Punchy"  bass... rather than flat deflated.. and less defined messy / sloppy bass.   This of course, take a lot more power to accomplish.   This means you will need a Very powerful amp to drive them... and even then, the speakers might not be as loud as the new speakers you may have.   As most of the power is going towards making accurate music.. rather than merely loud music.

 I bought an old pair of  EPI's, that have an 8" woofer, and an inverted tweeter.  These things do not have as much power as my 12" three way techniques.  However, the sound accuracy is so lush and clear.. that I really find it hard going back to the Techs.   The techs bass is muddied, and honestly, the EPIs can produce lower bass, with much more clarity, and less distortion.  The EPIs are also sealed, not ported, like the Techs.   A port, is a hollow tube, that is set to make a certain frequency sound as the air leaves it... but that sound, is very artificial.  It also means that the air needed internally, isnt always there... and so you lose accurate pressure to produce clean sounds.

 The EPIs inverted tweeter is insane.  It produces sound so precise, and it fills a 3d soundstage all over the room.  Unlike dome tweeters, where there is one Sweet-Spot...  the sweet spot is almost anywhere you stand.   It also produces frequencies of the midrange, without any distortion or accuracy issues, which means theres no reason for another crossover in the system.  The woofer coils also are designed in such a way, as not to need a high frequency cut off crossover.  As such, theres almost no crossover system on them... and so the sound isnt colored, or changed in any way... as can happen with crossover systems.

 The result, is candy to the ears.  The only thing I regret, is not having more of them... as to bump up the loudness, from multiple speakers.   I would also love to hear the 10" versions, and or the other dual driver versions of these small, but magnificent speakers.   These things blow all the big name audio companies right out of the water.   The cool thing is... a guy whom used to work for them, is still hand building them.  You can buy brand new drivers from him, which are the same quality or even slightly enhanced...  and then build your own boxes to place them in.

 I also got a pair of large advents.  But on the short test I made, they sounded way too bassy.  As in... being so overwhelming, as to sound too artificial.  They need re-foaming, so I cant really do any extensive tests on them.

 I also have a pair of Phillips boom box speakers with the Woox passive woofer-subwoofer system.  They are pretty amazing for their size, clarity,bass level, and power handling.  Three tweeters, and one 6.5' woofer I believe.  The woox passive radiator really does a much better job of low freq. response than the typical port-only systems.   Though, they still do not have the same clarity and accuracy of the EPIs.

[spyhunter]

I just made the recording on mametesters:

http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=5452

You will be able to easily tell that this is not some acoustic mumbo jumbo, the sounds in Mame are most definitely off.

I just hope that they will be able to fix it, and not tell me something like, oh you need to use your roms to make a digital image, or something complicated that I won't easily be able to do...

SH

[spyhunter]

No movement in over a year, hard to believe...

SH

[spyhunter]

Well just as I suspected, they told me to fix it myself! 

Of-course I am one of the original MAME programmers and am 100% capable of fixing it myself guys!?!  Seriously?!?

There sure are a lot of ---uvulas--- and backwards thinking people over at MAME, who are too busy to entertain the notion that someone might be right, simply because they themselves are not getting paid to lift a finger to fix a very simple problem.

And they are quick to remind you they are not getting paid and that they don’t want to hear about it because of the monetary issue!!

Many sounds are spot on, many are not (one of these things is not like the other).

Where are the Spy Hunter fans at that can back me up already? 

SH 

[spyhunter]

The real crime here is that Arcade 1UP or another repro company is eventually going to use the MAME version of the game and the F’d upped sounds and think it is very normal for an old game…

Spy Hunter was so much more than this and does not deserve an ounce of this type of disrespect!  Someone must have thought well it’s good enough, and really it’s not, no other big game of this era that I know of has sound issues in MAME… only this one… what did the game do to deserve the punishment??

[Mike A]

You need to move on with your life.

This is unhealthy.

[meyer980]

Gonna have to side with MAMEdev on this one. It's not their job to fix specific games for you or anybody else. It's a hobby for them, like building cabinets is a hobby for us. In many cases, the person who wrote the original or faulty driver is no longer around.

Anybody is allowed to contribute, so either you have to hope someone who has the passion for Spy Hunter decides to look into it - or you have to learn to code and do it yourself.

Lastly, to your comment that no other big game has sound issues, that's just factually inaccurate. For many, many years Donkey Kong had inaccurate, sample based sounds. Space Demon and Space Firebird (also Nintendo games) have mixed up sounds in the CURRENT version of MAME. Jumpbug has known sound issues.

[Haze]

Ah, so he's decided to bump his post here like he has everywhere else he spammed it all those years ago.

Even after having it explained to him that it's not a simple fix (it all comes down to the analog filtering on the PCBs) he rejected the technical explanations provided and continued to insult those with knowledge of the subject, even after they'd taken time to study the schematics to say exactly what was missing from our sound emulation.  ( https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=392096&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 after which he took the insults to other places, including here and the bug tracker )

The reality is that Spy Hunter - or more specifically, the Cheap Squeak Deluxe sound board - uses a quartet of LM359 op-amp chips to perform filtering on the raw DAC output, which is used to generate all (or nearly all) of the sound effects in the game. Sorry to say, but that particular op-amp variant is not emulated by MAME's netlist system. If it were, it would actually be a relative easy hookup, but in this case it isn't. Each individual operational amplifier (and for that matter, transistor and diode) has its own set of characteristics that need to be both A) determined and B) modeled within MAME's netlist system. A whole variety of op-amps have been characterized and emulated, but the LM359 isn't one of them, and it's that which gives Spy Hunter (and other games) the characteristic tone of its sound effects.

Only thing he's really made sure of is that nobody is going to look at it for another 5 years.

Even if it did get fixed he'd probably just moan that the system requirements shot through the roof (analog sound simulations are expensive)

Also completely ignoring where he was told that these days 'MAME developers' are basically just ordinary people who have an interest in something and want to improve it, that's where the vast majority of such fixes come from.  The core team will take something so far, after that perfecting it *is* up to other people because each individual case usually requires an extraordinary amount of additional research.

As for games with bad sound, people still aren't really happy with the Space Invaders sounds, and you can't really get much more classic than that.  There are also hundreds of early games with no sound at all, or missing filters, or where rough samples are still needed.  This stuff is tough. 

Spy Hunter isn't really even that much of an interesting game either, too much focus on the novelty aspect rather than well balanced / fun gameplay, while the nasty interlace video mode they use means it effectively runs at 30 frames per second, not a nice smooth 60 as you'd want from a fast paced driving game.  It's kinda easy to see why not that many people care about it these days.  I wouldn't call it bad (the sequel is bad) but it's very average once the novelty has worn off.

[javeryh]

The only thing good about Spy Hunter is the theme song.  The game is bad, IMO. 

Not that it shouldn’t ever be perfectly emulated some day but there can’t be too many people that really care…

[10yard]

This is annoying as hell.  We should care that folks give up their time to contribute to open projects like MAME and we should expect less.  If we want more then we need to get off our own ass and make it happen by learning and contributing.  I have fond memories of Spyhunter but do not feel any motivation to look into this issue for you.

[KenToad]

Spy Hunter has one really interesting game mechanic in that the big punishment for dying is that the game turns off the music. Back in the 80's, I got addicted to playing Spy Hunter just because I wanted to get good enough to hear the sublime later variants of the main theme. I can't think of any other game that hurts so much to die.

I think the reason for the lack of love today is mainly the controls. Modern controller thumbsticks don't have the precision needed to play really well, while modern wheels don't have the spring-loaded snap to make those quick sideswipes. Also, who didn't love that custom wheel with all the triggers and the flashing button in the middle? When you start to learn the game, you switch into high gear and put the pedal down about 60-70% and smash those tire grinder cars in the front bumper so that they can't get you when you run out of special weapons.

Thanks for getting me to play the game again. Aside from some popping, the audio sounds pretty great to me, definitely better than it did in a loud arcade, at least in MAME .235. All these years later, the thrill of that soundtrack and the struggle to keep the music playing remains an amazing experience.

[spyhunter]

Thank you for sharing your honest, favorable and pleasant experience with the game (something the MAME heads are incapable of doing) and you have basically proven that my main point is moot.  However, if you owned the original arcade, you would no doubt question the sound issues, and be pretty disappointed.  It's great to hear someone that can agree that it is an amazing game (mostly because of the music), but if you get good at playing the game, which even with the original cabinet is not easy to do, you would realize there is more to the game than just the music...

There is no substitute for the original controls on this game, as it is one of the very few that cannot be replicated very well by anything but the arcade controls, having said that I wanted to point out that another travesty to this game in MAME is that the default controls absolutely SUCK!!

It's no surprise that the game is not played much outside of the original cabinet, because the default controls SUCK so bad the game is virtually unplayable in MAME, this is something that these MAME heads also don't want to comprehend because their main job in life is to disagree with fans, to have a God complex, and to cry about not getting any donations for their cause and whining that this person is posting about the same thing all over the internet because he happens to be passionate about something, and is not just half assed about what he does and how he feels...  waa waa boo hoo

Anyway, I recently took some screen shots of the joypad controls that I figured out (by myself, imagine that) which involves reversing the analog pedal control to make the car cruise along automatically at medium speed (in high gear), and it makes the game a whole lot more decent to play in MAME...  basically you don't crash as easily...  I will post them below...

Final comments about the Mame heads, these guys just can't get over themselves...  they have invited this type of badgering by being 110% negative and having a very unpleasant and argumentative nature towards outsiders...  and why do they take it so personally?   If they didn't take it so personally, there wouldn't have to be so much negativity...  I get it, you don't know how to fix it and you couldn't be bothered to fix it...  You weren't around 20+ years ago to work on it... And you hate the game...  And you hate me...  And you wish I would just go away...  Got it...  Understood...  was that so hard to explain??

BTW - Their explanations are so muddied up by mumbo jumbo talk, it doesn't impress anybody either...  I do know a fair deal about computers, I can tell that half of the sounds were recorded properly, half of the sounds were not, there were basically good reads on the roms/code and there were reads that missed much of the content.  Filtering would affect all sounds, not just some, and I know you don't agree with me, so prove me wrong, fix it and explain what you did to fix it, better yet, even admit there is a problem, which is way beyond your scope.

I don't have any issues, I simply want justice brought to a reproduction of my favorite game in the world for all to enjoy, that's all.

SH 

[spyhunter]

SH

[Vocalitus]

Ah, so he's decided to bump his post here like he has everywhere else he spammed it all those years ago.

Even after having it explained to him that it's not a simple fix (it all comes down to the analog filtering on the PCBs) he rejected the technical explanations provided and continued to insult those with knowledge of the subject, even after they'd taken time to study the schematics to say exactly what was missing from our sound emulation.  ( https://www.mameworld.info/ubbthreads/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=392096&page=0&view=expanded&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 after which he took the insults to other places, including here and the bug tracker )

The reality is that Spy Hunter - or more specifically, the Cheap Squeak Deluxe sound board - uses a quartet of LM359 op-amp chips to perform filtering on the raw DAC output, which is used to generate all (or nearly all) of the sound effects in the game. Sorry to say, but that particular op-amp variant is not emulated by MAME's netlist system. If it were, it would actually be a relative easy hookup, but in this case it isn't. Each individual operational amplifier (and for that matter, transistor and diode) has its own set of characteristics that need to be both A) determined and B) modeled within MAME's netlist system. A whole variety of op-amps have been characterized and emulated, but the LM359 isn't one of them, and it's that which gives Spy Hunter (and other games) the characteristic tone of its sound effects.

Only thing he's really made sure of is that nobody is going to look at it for another 5 years.

Even if it did get fixed he'd probably just moan that the system requirements shot through the roof (analog sound simulations are expensive)

Also completely ignoring where he was told that these days 'MAME developers' are basically just ordinary people who have an interest in something and want to improve it, that's where the vast majority of such fixes come from.  The core team will take something so far, after that perfecting it *is* up to other people because each individual case usually requires an extraordinary amount of additional research.

As for games with bad sound, people still aren't really happy with the Space Invaders sounds, and you can't really get much more classic than that.  There are also hundreds of early games with no sound at all, or missing filters, or where rough samples are still needed.  This stuff is tough. 

Spy Hunter isn't really even that much of an interesting game either, too much focus on the novelty aspect rather than well balanced / fun gameplay, while the nasty interlace video mode they use means it effectively runs at 30 frames per second, not a nice smooth 60 as you'd want from a fast paced driving game.  It's kinda easy to see why not that many people care about it these days.  I wouldn't call it bad (the sequel is bad) but it's very average once the novelty has worn off.

That's Mamespeak for I don't know how to do it and I don't want to know how to do it.

It is perfectly acceptable to acknowledge this and these guys maintain Mame for free.

Maybe if you asked Haze nicely to help you with the sound issue and waft some reddies under his nose he might bite.  And again he might not.

Phil Bennet or Aaron Giles is your person of interest as they know hardware better than Haze does.  We all have immense respect for Phil and Aaron.  Phil did amazing work on Cubequest and that was no easy feat.  Aaron Giles needs no introduction.  His work is legendary in the industry.

Who ever you speak to please show them the respect they deserve.  You won't get anywhere being too clever.   

[Haze]

BTW - Their explanations are so muddied up by mumbo jumbo talk, it doesn't impress anybody either...  I do know a fair deal about computers, I can tell that half of the sounds were recorded properly, half of the sounds were not, there were basically good reads on the roms/code and there were reads that missed much of the content.  Filtering would affect all sounds, not just some, and I know you don't agree with me, so prove me wrong, fix it and explain what you did to fix it, better yet, even admit there is a problem, which is way beyond your scope.

You see, this is what I was saying.

Even if you strip away the personal insults that are littered every other line, he's completely rejecting the actual reasons provided (which were based on studying the schematics) while clearly demonstrating no understanding of how things work at all, yet acting like he knows it all.

Anyway, I'm not dealing with this troll any further.  It's been explained, he won't accept that, the end.  This attitude is going to get him nowhere.

[Vocalitus]

BTW - Their explanations are so muddied up by mumbo jumbo talk, it doesn't impress anybody either...  I do know a fair deal about computers, I can tell that half of the sounds were recorded properly, half of the sounds were not, there were basically good reads on the roms/code and there were reads that missed much of the content.  Filtering would affect all sounds, not just some, and I know you don't agree with me, so prove me wrong, fix it and explain what you did to fix it, better yet, even admit there is a problem, which is way beyond your scope.

You see, this is what I was saying.

Even if you strip away the personal insults that are littered every other line, he's completely rejecting the actual reasons provided (which were based on studying the schematics) while clearly demonstrating no understanding of how things work at all, yet acting like he knows it all.

Anyway, I'm not dealing with this troll any further.  It's been explained, he won't accept that, the end.  This attitude is going to get him nowhere.

It is clear he needs to buy the original hardware.  Why has he not done this already?

https://www.vintagearcade.net/shop/arcade-games/spy-hunter/

[spyhunter]

Of-course, I have the original game, that’s how I made the recordings and that’s why I am making such a big deal about it.

SH

[Mike A]

You are making such a big deal about it because your are an insufferable ---meecrob---.
You have been complaining about this for years.
The people smart enough to do something about it told you to go fly a kite.