Visual Pinball.....whoa.

[TopJimmyCooks]

I'm with Malenko and Chad.  I have real pins.  I have played a couple of virtual pin cabs.  I've played VP and AB'd with games I actually have.  I played an ultrapin at Disney quest and it was lame. 

THEY are DIFFERENT.  One doesn't destroy the value of the other.  I would buy one real pin before I bought one nice virtual pin with 100 tables for the same money, but that doesn't mean the simulator can't have redeeming value and provide a lot of fun and some valuable rules learning.   You will not become a skilled, nuanced player of real pins with one because of the differences.  I've played vpin versions of games I hadn't seen IRL prior to tournaments and feel it helped me learn strategy/rules.

The issues with physics and flat appearance get better constantly at a slow rate.  the stuff like the head tracking 3D and animated backglasses may take it past the physical at some point even. 

The other BIG difference is I could build one. This is the only reason I have an arcade game.  I would never be motivated to buy a cab commercially.  It's doable to re-theme or re-rule an existing pin but building one from scratch, the value really isnt' there I feel on a hobbyist level.  As in by the time you got done with something decently spec'd and built, P-roc, etc, you could have bought two new sterns and it might still suck, because face it, you're not Steve Ritchie or Pat Lawlor.   

Even though I would choose the real, I could see myself building a nice vpin (or a sleeper rat rod one in a blown out real pin cabinet) because I like building this stuff and they're fun projects.  more to them than a mame cab.   The last project I built wasn't a machine I wanted to keep long term either, but someone wanted it and it was damn fun to put together and run for a few weeks. 

[yotsuya]

If youre real pinhead I dont doubt that a Vpin will never be good enough. Just like a real arcade junky wouldnt settle for just a MAME cab 

[pbj]

Meh, this arcade junky lays his ass on the couch and plays arcade games wirelessly with his Xbox 360 on an HD TV.  Y'all can keep your stinky refrigerator sized single game cabinets.

[MTPPC]

MTPPC,

  The argument isnt about comparing completely different experiences.  Its about representing the experience of the original games.

 If you play Supersprint,  with a spinner / 360 degree wheel..  in mame, you pretty much get the exact arcade experience.   

 But with Virtual Pinball,  you dont get even 20% of the actual represented experience... and thats with all the controls, sensors, and force feedback added.   You do not even get the correct Look of the game.

I've owned 10 pinballs in the last 6 months

 Ohh geez.  Really?   So you either spent over 20,000$  in one shot... or bought and sold 2 pins nearly every month.  So you had less than 15 days to play each of them... and thats if you actually had that much time to do so...  which realistically you probably spent about 2 to 4hrs on each machine.  Barely scratching the surface, of getting to know the games... and then flipping them.

 Are you sure that YOU do not have a problem?  heh    Or are you just buying generic / junk?

 Even the games I like the Least, are still replay-ably enjoyable... because they are games of skill.


 I believe the problem is that you, like many... do not REALLY understand how to play a real machine.


Its not just about timing the flipper.   Its about learning how to really Work the machine, using various vectored nudges, to get the ball to alter its vectors in places OTHER than merely at the flipper.  Its about how to analyze the balls spin, and how to counter it.. and or reduce it... as well as knowing what will happen when that spin hits something...  and which kinds of shots or what kinds of things cause the ball to get heavy spin. As well as creating that spin or using that spin to enter a tricky shot area.   And if your a flow guy like myself... its also about the challenge of keeping the ball at maximum velocity, without stopping the ball.

 Then there are factors such as...   Are you Sure that you actually put the game at the proper slope angle and horizontal level?  Too high a bank, and the ball will not flow properly... have difficulty going up ramps, and be far less controllable.  If the bank is too low... then the ball will float up the field... and the balls speed will be far reduced... causing very long, and far less challenging gameplay sessions.  (snorefests, rather than adrenalin pumped sessions)    And of course, if the game is not level horizontally... the ball will favor a set of vectors.. making the game play all wrong.  There are also problems if your flooring isnt well flat... because a mere cm shift in direction... and the once level game, is now completely out of whack again...

 Also... the games should be leveled with the glass OFF, with the level placed on the actual playfield itself... because at times, the actual railing system has warped and or is no longer True.   

 Then even if you have leveled it properly.. but you didnt lock the nuts on the leg levelers properly... and or checked / tightened the leg bolts as well..   A few min to a few hrs of play... and it will be out of whack again.

 Was the field in good condition and well cleaned / polished?   If the surface is ate up with scratches, with scratched up balls, and plenty of dirty wax, wax that is laden with metal flakes and carbon soot... and the game will play up to 50% slower than it should... as well as effect the balls proper reactions.   

 Remove the crud, and wipe the table down with Formula 21, and see a well used game play almost as it did when it rolled out of the factory.  Lightning fast speeds.    Obviously, if the field is too far ate..  theres little you can do unless you are willing to spend the time doing a heavy duty restoration... or at minimal, placing a full sheet of new mylar down.  (they make pre-cut overlay mylars now.  Something I suggested about 10+ yrs ago... )

 And finally... did you rebuild or replace the flipper assemblies?   Thats the very first thing I do on all my Pins.  Most often the plastic bearing is worn and has slop / play.. and the flipper isnt locked down in the correct place... so it either stops too far, or too short... so you cant get the balls vectors correct and as intended, in-game.   Those two pressure-pin holes near the flippers are used to stick an allen wrench (or similar) in them to know where to lock down the flippers.


 But overall, I still believe you are just not playing the game correctly.  Merely using timing and angles, without knowing how to actually physically 'work' a table.   I suggest playing an older EM machine (flipper-less if possible)  at a Pinshow, and due to its slower rake, thus slower speeds, you will have more ball effect with table nudges.. and thus start to understand the true magic of Real pinball.

 I personally never cared about Rulesets or even much about high scores.   It was always about how much challenge and fun I was having.. and ball-times were much more of an accomplishment, especially when you dont (or very rarely)  stop the ball.   But to each their own.


 And Finally...  Yes, Ive seen a few, and played a Virtual Pin at a local gameshow here.  One of which was one of Foleys machines, which had all the sensors in it.   I found the graphics to be flat and poorly shaded (cartooney & without any contrast)...  the fast motion was "ghosty",  and the play was easier and far less the experience of the real machines.  None of the tables I tried played anything like the real deal...   and in a show full of real pins to compare against... I think it says a lot about the relative experience.    I even have a collector friend whom usually Loves everything... and he even talked about how lame the virtual pins were.   And thats saying a lot.. cause this guy is all smiles and roses.

 Its not to say I do not enjoy being able to experience virtual pinball tables.   Because I can and have had fun using them on my pc, on a CRT.  But to spend several Thousands for cabinets that are not offering much over even that experience... seems completely ridiculous to me.

 I guess what Im trying to say..  is that when I wanted an Indiana Jones Pinball machine..  NO amount of virtual pinball could satisfy me.  I played it a few times on location... then on my pc...  then back some more on location... and then bit the bullet and dropped one on my credit card.

 Even the lower priced machines are about 90% more fun than the Virtural machines... IMO, and so why not pick one of them up?  I got a Williams Fire for peanuts... and it plays more fun than the best of the virtual machines.


 I guess the easiest thing to say, after I thought about this some more...  is that it is like spending $2000 to buy a virtual Ski-ball machine..  when you could buy a real used ski-ball machine for the same or less money.  Sure, the Virtual machine will also play Virtual darts, Virtual Pool, Virtual Bowling..etc..   But none of them will be as fun and challenging as the real machine you can actually buy.    If you cant afford even the lowest $ machine.. then your probably not building or buying a virtual machine anyways... and can just as easily play them on a cheap PC, or mildly cheap mame cab.

Like I said, you haven't played a good pinsim and your "percentage of experience" comments demonstrate your complete ignorance on the topic. You don't know anything about the current state of the art, me, my machines and my experience so your comments are made in ignorance.

I'm not going to cheerlead virtual pinball because it doesn't need cheerleading. It's one thing to say you don't like it after you've experienced a nice machine with current software, analog nudging and force feedback and it's completely another to comment based on what you think it is.

BTW, there are a lot of people on pinside that have both simulators and real pin collections. They don't confuse one for the other and neither do I. That seems to be what you are doing. Right now I have 2 real pins and a couple short months ago, I had 7. Why would you assume that I needed to spend 20 grand to get them? I know a lot more about pinball than you think I do and most of your assumptions are just off the wall bunk. I've got 270 visual pinball tables on my sim and I've been playing a lot of avatar and TronLE lately. How about you. What have you been playing?

A simulator is not for simulating what you can do in real life. It's for simulating what you can't. I don't understand why you argue so vehemently against pincabs. Jealousy, perhaps? BTW, I've built 4 and the most expensive was still under $1600.