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Author Topic: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts  (Read 27934 times)

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ChanceKJ

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2013, 03:13:36 pm »
 :laugh2:

This thread is just getting better.


My next cab I'm putting ten TWELVE buttons for each player on a P4 CP. Half a dozen sticks, two spinners, three trackballs, pinball controls, AND 8 ADMIN BUTTONS! 

/EvilLaugh

(At this exact moment Bryan or Susan over at PA just found a penny on the ground and thought nothing of it...)

yotsuya

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2013, 03:40:57 pm »
You do that.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

zanna5910

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2013, 05:52:51 pm »
The servostick can be purchased via the whole thing (Servostik), or just a conversion kit (Servostik Upgrade Kit).  You still need the ServoStik control board to power per 2.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 06:03:19 pm by zanna5910 »

Xiaou2

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2013, 09:06:55 pm »
Quote
No one's pulling opinions out of their ---uvulas---. It's been tested, tried, and ultimately rejected by many of us here. But do what you want. We CabNazis need to go plan to annex the Rhine or something like that.

 I never cared for the N64.  I prefer 2d games, with high detail and a level of difficulty.. over flat 3d low poloy count games, that are so easy you could almost beat them blindfolded while knitting a vulgar sweater for PBJ.

 But as said, its really up to him what he wants on his Pizza.

 I like Mad Planets, so a trigger stick & spinner are being added.   Nobody will talk me down from that, because In their eyes... "Trigger Sticks look bad on control panels".

 You shouldnt take offense to others opinions, nor should you try to force others to do / like the same things you like / do.

 Now.. the question still stands... Are there any console games that use more than 2 players, have more than 4 buttons.. and work well on arcade controllers?  There probably are some that do.

 Its like that guy whom added 4 steering wheels to his cab to play some certain console racing game.  Others couldnt get over the look..  but Im sure he, and his family & friends had a lot of fun using them.


yotsuya

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2013, 10:16:07 pm »
You shouldnt take offense to others opinions, nor should you try to force others to do / like the same things you like / do.

The title of this thread is "Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts".

He asked for thoughts. We've shared our thoughts. With evidence based on experience.  Stop acting like we're the BYOAC Gestapo going around provoking newbies.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

Bobgilb1

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2013, 12:16:42 pm »
No need to fight, gents! Although I do still gain knowledge and insight from the back and forth :)

I asked for thoughts and I am getting them, perfect......keep them coming!

Buying some MDO this weekend and will have more updates then.

I received my Mag Stik Plus joysticks and am researching/reading/trying to decide what I am going to do.

Thanks again!

ChanceKJ

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #86 on: December 13, 2013, 12:21:20 pm »
We were fighting? 


...did, did I win?  ???

yotsuya

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #87 on: December 13, 2013, 12:39:53 pm »
We were fighting? 


...did, did I win?  ???

When Xiaou gets involved in the argument, no one wins.

Conversely,

***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

zanna5910

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #88 on: December 13, 2013, 01:00:06 pm »
I believe in "to each their own" when it comes to this, so do what you want, but please hear my experience on the console topic:

1. Sure, you can use a 6button layout and 8way to play SNES, but playing without triggers, games will leave your hands cramped and locked in a way that resembles cerebral palsy.  You'll never feel it plays good since the buttons aren't triggers.  Imagine holding the upper right button while tapping the 3rd button and the upper left button at the same time.  Enjoy that.

2. Sure, you can use 9 buttons, an 8 way joystick and a digital joystick and play Goldeneye 64 on an arcade or some other terrible combination of buttons to resemble a modern controller.  It will feel about as awesome as playing Metroid with a power glove.

My advice, build your CP for the arcade, like the arcade.  It will play the best and look the best.  It will be the easiest to use and the most intuitive.  Install USB adapters and use a gamepad for anything else (with the small exception of NES games, which do play nicely with said arcade layout).

That being said, many people have thought really far outside the box and built things that truly are awesome and some end up being "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".  Don't think that if you want to do something different it is a failure, it's only a failure when you realize it didn't work, but hey, at least you tried. 

In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden hose reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it.  I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge. 

« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:19:42 pm by zanna5910 »

yotsuya

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #89 on: December 13, 2013, 01:07:51 pm »
In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden house reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it.  I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge.

If you only knew.....  :laugh2:
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

zanna5910

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #90 on: December 13, 2013, 01:14:26 pm »
In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden house reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it.  I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge.

If you only knew.....  :laugh2:

I do know...    :o
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 01:22:34 pm by zanna5910 »

Bobgilb1

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #91 on: December 13, 2013, 01:27:12 pm »
We were fighting? 


...did, did I win?  ???

I was joking.....but YES, you did win!

yotsuya

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #92 on: December 13, 2013, 01:30:16 pm »
In all seriousness, zanna5910, your post is well-though out and based on personal experience. Most of us that are saying, "Don't do it, you're not going to like it," have been in the same situation. It's constructive feedback that is rooted in evidence, which is more than "Do what you want, brother, and be happy" is.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

thatpurplestuff

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #93 on: December 13, 2013, 01:43:22 pm »
I believe in "to each their own" when it comes to this, so do what you want, but please hear my experience on the console topic:

1. Sure, you can use a 6button layout and 8way to play SNES, but playing without triggers, games will leave your hands cramped and locked in a way that resembles cerebral palsy.  You'll never feel it plays good since the buttons aren't triggers.  Imagine holding the upper right button while tapping the 3rd button and the upper left button at the same time.  Enjoy that.

2. Sure, you can use 9 buttons, an 8 way joystick and a digital joystick and play Goldeneye 64 on an arcade or some other terrible combination of buttons to resemble a modern controller.  It will feel about as awesome as playing Metroid with a power glove.

My advice, build your CP for the arcade, like the arcade.  It will play the best and look the best.  It will be the easiest to use and the most intuitive.  Install USB adapters and use a gamepad for anything else (with the small exception of NES games, which do play nicely with said arcade layout).

That being said, many people have thought really far outside the box and built things that truly are awesome and some end up being "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".  Don't think that if you want to do something different it is a failure, it's only a failure when you realize it didn't work, but hey, at least you tried. 

In doing research when building my CP, I remember seeing someone built an arcade control panel that could only be described as looking like an outdoor garden hose reel setup with hexagonal control panels circularly mounted to it.  I myself would never do that, but they liked it so who am I to judge.

I actually enjoyed playing SNES games on my arcade.  A surprising amount of the games didn't really use the shoulder buttons (or if they did it was infrequent), so in many cases you're just dealing with 4 buttons... however games like Super Mario Kart or others that require frequently pressing/holding the the shoulder buttons are awkward.  Again, it all comes down to preference, although I stand by my n64 comments since I really don't see a practical way of incorporating that many buttons and have it still be enjoyable and easy to use.

So once again, we find that evil of the past seeps into the present like salad dressing through cheap wax paper, mixing memory and desire.

zanna5910

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #94 on: December 13, 2013, 01:57:00 pm »
In all seriousness, zanna5910, your post is well-though out and based on personal experience. Most of us that are saying, "Don't do it, you're not going to like it," have been in the same situation. It's constructive feedback that is rooted in evidence, which is more than "Do what you want, brother, and be happy" is.

Thanks bud.   :cheers:


I actually enjoyed playing SNES games on my arcade.  A surprising amount of the games didn't really use the shoulder buttons (or if they did it was infrequent), so in many cases you're just dealing with 4 buttons... however games like Super Mario Kart or others that require frequently pressing/holding the the shoulder buttons are awkward.  Again, it all comes down to preference, although I stand by my n64 comments since I really don't see a practical way of incorporating that many buttons and have it still be enjoyable and easy to use.

I hear ya, me too.  Its just a pain to explain one way for this game and one way for that game that and this button is x and this is left trigger and this is... uggg. I found it much easier to say, plug in the SNES controller to play SNES. 

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #95 on: April 04, 2014, 03:52:32 am »
Hello Bobgilb1,

I have not posted much, but after reading all these forum posts, I wanted to share my brief perspective on the number of buttons for the two outer players.  I'm currently in planning stages on my cabinet, and I've decided to build a 4 player cabinet as well.  All the build aside, I disagree with most people here regarding the number of buttons, and explain why.  Of course, realize my situation is most likely different than yours is, but again, such is life.  In my case, I am making a 4 player cabinet because I wanted to do something our family could all do together, that is fun, creates bonding time, and (except for initial cost), is something that will not have much extra expense added to it.  My wife loves old arcade games, and of course, I grew up with a lot of them also.  My kids also love the games, but I'm also a tech. junkie, of sorts.  You mentioned you were in IT, so I'm guessing you have a decent computer, and that is why I post an opinion IN FAVOR of 6 buttons for each player.  While I agree playing some console games via arcade controls, such as the N64 specifically, is basically a nightmare, it is a perfect setting for 4 player PC games.  A perfect example is Street Fighter X Tekken.  It is a really fun game, 4 players, and uses a 6 button layout.  That is a game my kids and I play all the time, and it would be really unfair for two players to only have access to 2/3 of the buttons.  Now, in truth, if you don't play that, or other similar PC games that use numerous buttons, (which there are some, but honestly, not too many to my knowledge), it probably is best to save the space, and not have them, as 4 player panels are still big, and saving several inches in width is a good thing.  However, in MY specific case, after much consideration, there is no real alternative other than to have 6 buttons per player.  Will they all get used all the time?  No.  However, when you need them and don't have them, you'll wish you did.  :-)  Just my thought on the matter.

p.s. Bob, if you haven't, and depending on your intention with it, I'd recommend checking out some PC games, there are quite a few good 4 player ones.  In my own experience so far, I've found 39 4 player games I feel are appropriate for my kids, and are fun, and there are many more that are not "age-appropriate" for my kids.

BTW, I forget who posted that 4 simultaneous players will NEVER happen, it really depends on your circumstances.  Since I'm making mine explicitly and intentionally for my family, I can tell you that, at least in my case, that statement is just not true.  Even though the cabinet itself is not built yet, the software is mostly completed and tweaked, and I can tell you there are many nights we all sit down and play together, everything from a 1 player game, 2 players swapping a controller, or everyone having their own controller, it is a lot of fun.   :)

CoOlSlY

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #96 on: June 12, 2014, 08:00:37 am »
The only thing I would add is not to be so OCD about the P3-P4 buttons. Look at this example here:



Nicely done. Why add 4 buttons that will never get used?

The link supplied in this thread for the plans of this control panel are no longer available (all the files). Anybody know where I could find them? There's not a lot of 4 players plans available as far as the search i've made :| Would like a 4 player layout + spinner + trackball

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #97 on: June 12, 2014, 09:27:33 am »
The only thing I would add is not to be so OCD about the P3-P4 buttons. Look at this example here:



Nicely done. Why add 4 buttons that will never get used?

The link supplied in this thread for the plans of this control panel are no longer available (all the files). Anybody know where I could find them? There's not a lot of 4 players plans available as far as the search i've made :| Would like a 4 player layout + spinner + trackball

That is a real nice example of a great 4-player layout.  The only thing I really don't like is that you can't easily play two-player Smash TV.

Xiaou2

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #98 on: June 12, 2014, 09:49:59 pm »
Quote
That is a real nice example of a great 4-player layout.

 Actually... Not so great.    Arts pretty cool..  but try to reach that deep into the CP for extended periods of time.. 
Also, where do you place your arms to get to those sticks & controls?   On the buttons... with your arm pressing into the other joysticks.
Very poor comfort and useability.

 All they would have had to do...  is place the top controllers diagonally to the left of the main sticks.   They would be far less deep in the CP, and you wouldnt have to rest your arm on top of a set of buttons to use them.

 The Trackball "Symmetry Bug", is also an issue.    Anyone who plays a trackball game with any intensity... is going to smash their hands into the blue stick.

 Had they moved the ball closer to the red buttons... there would have been far more room to sweep your hand around... without slamming into anything.

 Im also not sure about the angles of the yellow buttons either...

Quote
I really don't like is that you can't easily play two-player Smash TV.

 Word.

 However, Id have to say Robotron.. because Robotron is much more intense and gratifying.   And either way... you really cant play
Robotron with those Happs Comps.   You need real Wico 8way leafsticks to make it anywhere in that game.  Partly due to the very long throw the Happs sticks have... and partly the fatigue from the microswitchs (and the associated long activation distances), as well as the hard slam that happens at the end of travel on fighter sticks.  Gota love the Rubber Grommet on the Wico sticks, that keep that from happening...

 Also, are there any leaf buttons on there?   Id make a least the bottom button a leaf - for non autofire, rapid shot games.. such as Galaga, Asteroids Deluxe..etc.   These games would fatigue you in mere minutes with a Microswitch.  They also have that same "Slam into the CP" issue.. further effecting comfort and fatigue.   Where as leafs have a wonderful buttery smooth bounce...


CoOlSlY

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #99 on: June 13, 2014, 03:30:53 pm »
Quote
That is a real nice example of a great 4-player layout.

 Actually... Not so great.    Arts pretty cool..  but try to reach that deep into the CP for extended periods of time.. 
Also, where do you place your arms to get to those sticks & controls?   On the buttons... with your arm pressing into the other joysticks.
Very poor comfort and useability.

 All they would have had to do...  is place the top controllers diagonally to the left of the main sticks.   They would be far less deep in the CP, and you wouldnt have to rest your arm on top of a set of buttons to use them.

 The Trackball "Symmetry Bug", is also an issue.    Anyone who plays a trackball game with any intensity... is going to smash their hands into the blue stick.

 Had they moved the ball closer to the red buttons... there would have been far more room to sweep your hand around... without slamming into anything.

 Im also not sure about the angles of the yellow buttons either...

Quote
I really don't like is that you can't easily play two-player Smash TV.

 Word.

 However, Id have to say Robotron.. because Robotron is much more intense and gratifying.   And either way... you really cant play
Robotron with those Happs Comps.   You need real Wico 8way leafsticks to make it anywhere in that game.  Partly due to the very long throw the Happs sticks have... and partly the fatigue from the microswitchs (and the associated long activation distances), as well as the hard slam that happens at the end of travel on fighter sticks.  Gota love the Rubber Grommet on the Wico sticks, that keep that from happening...

 Also, are there any leaf buttons on there?   Id make a least the bottom button a leaf - for non autofire, rapid shot games.. such as Galaga, Asteroids Deluxe..etc.   These games would fatigue you in mere minutes with a Microswitch.  They also have that same "Slam into the CP" issue.. further effecting comfort and fatigue.   Where as leafs have a wonderful buttery smooth bounce...

Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #100 on: June 13, 2014, 03:37:05 pm »
Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s

The best 4 player panel Ive ever used was on NBA Jam / Open Ice. The main issue with 4 player panels is they are typically frankenpanels. The more stuff you try to cram on there the less room you have for arms, hands, and fingers. I am making a 4 player panel, based on Open Ice, but with the sticks in a line, and the inner 2 players having the 7 button layout. No spinner, no trackball, no extra 4 way.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:51:52 am by Malenko »
If you're replying to a troll you are part of the problem.
I also need to follow this advice. Ignore or report, don't reply.

Xiaou2

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #101 on: June 14, 2014, 02:08:26 pm »
Quote
Would you by any chance have a plan of the "perfect" 4 player controller? I read a lot and getting ready to do one but would really like a layout for the symetry of the buttons and everything, thank»'s

 Perfection is a statement based on personal preferences.   Whats perfect for me, isnt perfect for you.

 Furthermore, what I thought was perfect at one time... had changed when I became more educated.   For example, learning the joy of real leaf switch buttons,  true restricted 4ways,  and the ultimate for Rototron (and many other classic games), real Wico 8way leaf joysticks)  *(the new leaf based stuff people are making today, does NOT compare to the originals)

 As you have said, you want Symmetry as a main feature... then me and you will differ right away.   Because to me..  Id rather have comfort while playing... rather than for example, resting your arms on top of a bunch of other buttons / controllers.    As well as the Trackball issue - where as you really need about 1ft diameter circle of free space surrounding it.. else you will probably smash your hands into a joystick... or something else.   (Many people crank up the sensitivity of the trackball - so they dont have to roll as fast and hard... but that takes away the challenge, skill, feel, and is basically Cheating.   Id rather not play a game, than to play a handicapped version of it... )

 There are a few options Ive not listed... which could solve some of these issues.. such as a flip-out trackball assembly.   Ive not yet built it, but its possible.  Heck, even a slide out trackball setup would solve a lot of space issues, and be more easy to construct.

Quote
The main issue with 4 player panels is they are typically frankenpanels. The more stuff you try to cram on there the less room you have for arms, hands, and fingers.

 The term is for Anal people who value looks over funciontality.. such as in your example, of a panel that plays a very limited spectrum of games.   While you may have Other cabinets that play these other games... not everyone has the space, time, and money... to do the same.

 There are many ways to cram a lot of controllers on a panel, without any loss of comfort or performance.   Much like rearanging a room, it takes planning and sometimes some trial and error, to get things right.

 Furthermore, you can make very large control panels, providing more comfort and space than found in the old arcade days.  It may not be proportioned to look as nice... but your guest wont care, as they will enjoy the comfort and elbow room of the extra wide CP...  as well as not having to rub sweaty bodies while playing.. for long periods of time.

 Control panels can be rotated, having one one the bottom...  or more than that...   Can be vertical or horizontal in nature...  such as a Pedestal that can be turned to the other side for alternate controls - saving the need to reach deep into the CP (which is very unconmfortable).   And if you dont mind lugging out a 50lb CP every few games... and or have the space, time and extra money from additional encoders and artwork... then you can make swappable CPs.    As well as the possible use of all or some of these methods in combination.

 
Quote
he thinks Hard Driving is the most realistic racing game ever made.

 No.  The more realistic ARCADE driver released - that including the most realistic and best performing CONTROLLERS.

 A)  The physical model of the game was designed by a car physics guy.  The leading man in the business.   And yes, the physics go all the way down to the actual TIRES of the car.  See Jed's site for that mentioned...
Quote

You may have noticed that the Credit Screen lists Doug Milliken as a Test Driver. He is listed as a Test Driver because Atari didn't want anyone to know what he really did.

When we started Hard Drivin' we wanted it to be as accurate as possible. That meant doing an accurate car model to mathematically describe the physics of how the parts of the car (engine, transmission, springs, shock absorbers, tires, etc.) react to each other, to the road, and to the driver's inputs.

It also describes how the forces are transmitted back to the driver through the force-feedback steering wheel.

The pioneer in the field (in the 1950s) was William Milliken of Milliken Research. He son, Doug, has continued his father's work. Doug is probably the world's leading expert in car modeling. Doug and his father wrote the book on car modeling. And I mean that literally. (Go to Amazon.com and check out "Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (R146)" by William F. Milliken, Douglas L. Milliken).

Doug is also a good friend of Max's.

We hired Doug as a consultant to develop the car model. At the time (1980s) most of the work in car modeling was done to look at how the different parts of the car worked together within certain narrow speed ranges.

Our car had to work at all speeds. The way the car works at high speed is different than at slow speeds, such as when you are stopped and just starting to roll.

Doug and Max worked together to develop a car model that smoothly and dynamically changes depending on the mode. (Doug and Max are the smartest people I know.)

Atari had us list Doug as a Test Driver because they didn't want anyone to know we were doing real car modeling.

The modeling is so good (along with the moving dashboard contributed by Erik Durfey) that some people swear the game has a powered moving seat.

BTW, the seat position sensor scales the force feedback in the steering wheel. Presumably, a young person will have the seat forward and will get less force, and an adult will have it further back and get more force.
 
 
The TMS34010 does not have floating point, so Max could only model the car as having two wheels.

For Race Drivin' I put an AT&T DSP32C on the DSK Board (DSK stands for Driver Speed Kit.) The DSP32C is faster than the TMS34010 and has floating point. Because Max wrote the Car Model in C he was able to port it to the DSP32C in an afternoon. After that, he was able to have it execute a car model with four wheels. It also has a faster update rate.

The difference is very apparent when you drive the Original Track in Race Drivin'.

  Not many games went to this level of accuracy..  if ever.   One fine day, Id managed to hit the large ramp at an odd angle.  Somehow I think I clipped the edge of the landing ramp, but came off the ramp in a way that tilted the car vertically... thus I landed on the front tire or both tires on one side of the car.   Rather than wreck..  the car started to spin around, bouncing from tires to tires, while at various vertical angles... eventually, it fell flat, and I was actually able to continue to drive away!

 
 Race Drivin has a Force Feedback motor thats the size of an industrial machine.  The diameter is close to that of a gallon can of paint, and is very heavy.   The wheel, is the largest diameter wheel probably ever made for a racing game.  And the actual wheel can spin 3 or more full rotations from furthest left to furthest right.   The brake pedal has an actual pressure sensor, rather than just a typical pot.  Unlike most games which used the same spring system for the gas.. on the brake as well...  Race Drivin acutally used a different kind of compressible rubber system... that more closely mimics the feel of a brake pedal being used.   The force is more stiff, and even when you press it nearly to the max travel... you then can continue to press is very hard with your leg, to continue to get the pressure sensor to register that force being applied.  The pressure sensor is far more accurate than the typical pot values as well..   far exceeding the typical range.   That said, Race Drivins wheel used what I beleve was a 10-turn pot.  Again, far more accurate, with far greater range than the typical pots used in 99% of all arcade racers & even the majority of PC & gaming wheels.    Some use optical spoked wheel sensors to get around this... however, as good as optical can be... its still not as linear and precise as an analog pot.

 The Shifter is another marvel.   Used two pots rather than a bunch of microswitches.   Ive had to replace Daytona USA's crappy mini-micros at the arcade.. every other month.  Where as RD's shifter was pretty much failproof.  I replaced its pots like Once in its lifetime of use and abuse.  It also felt far more smooth, realisitic, and locked into place with a great snapping force.  It was easy to get into gears.. without any accidental fumbling.   I believe it also has a gear lock mechanism (one I have, uses a large electromagnet) , so if you try to use it without pressing the clutch... it either makes it harder, or stops it from being possible.  (Check games service menu for options)

 The seat also was locked in place with a powerful electromagnet.   Depending on the seat distance.. the force of the feedback was scaled up or down.  There was also option in the service menu, to crank the thing up to crazy levels of power.   You could have taped a small kid to the wheel.. and had him spin around.. if the seat was back far enough.

 It was also one of the only games that you needed to actually start the car correctly.. being in correct gear, with some gas, I think the clutch needed to be down too.. if using manual, and then turning the Key.   Fail to do that, or do it poorly... and the car wouldnt start up and go.. and or would stall out.

  Please name another arcade racer that went to that level of realism and control accuracy...

 And or,  please find another pedal and wheel set that can be used with the most modern consoles.. that matches all of those specs... and as a bonus, could withstand the abuse of kids in a busy arcade for years on end.

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #102 on: June 14, 2014, 02:24:14 pm »
Btw - I want to add, that the need for absolute symmetry on a CP is OCD Madness.

  Is your cars dash and control devices, symmetrical?

  How about an Airplane's controls?

  By the definition, you are driving around in your car, using a franken panel.

  But the reality is that controls are designed for comfort, precision control, safety, and lasting durability.
Cars controls do not Need to be symmetrical.  But they do Need to be useful, accurate, and comfortable.

 Its pretty much the same thing with game controllers.

 Function & Comfort, over look.

 Heck, even the most expensive supercars still use non-symmetrical designs.. and internally are not exactly "Peacefully Zen-Like", or Artistic masterpieces.

 And even the most Artistic cabinets, are neither Symmetrical, nor non-tacky.. in the "adult Living-Room" sense.   (It would be hard to make any cabinet fit that description anyways..  )    See:  Discs of Tron  Environmental, for incredible artistic value...  maybe the most artistry ever worked into an arcade cab.


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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #103 on: June 14, 2014, 03:09:06 pm »
I prefer functionality over having too many controls on one panel. Yes, there have been some well made functional frankenpanels, but they are more of the exception than the rule.  My panel WILL be limited, I'll only be able to play about 95% of MAME's games (excluding the mahjong titles) . I would suggest the OP figure out all the games he thinks he'll play then figure out controls based around that. I feel its better to pick out controls based on what you want to play rather than figure out what can you play with the controls you picked.

EDIT: self imposed thread clean up
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 10:50:25 am by Malenko »
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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #104 on: June 14, 2014, 03:44:32 pm »
Ugh,  ::) Unsubscribed

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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #105 on: June 14, 2014, 04:14:26 pm »
Ugh,  ::) Unsubscribed

yeah , I gotta stop takin the tardbait.

If I ever finish up my 4player panel, I'll post up some real specs. It'll be far from perfect but it'll be very functional. Art here: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,138619.msg1436534.html#msg1436534
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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #106 on: June 14, 2014, 08:27:13 pm »
Quote
I prefer functionality over having too many controls on one panel. Yes, there have been some well made functional frankenpanels, but they are more of the exception than the rule.  My panel WILL be limited, I'll only be able to play about 95% of MAME's games. The fact you think that you need multiple encoders for swap-able panels is a pretty good indicator you don't know how to make a swap-able panel.

 So yes, you are Agreeing with me.   There are ways to present multiple controllers, without functional problems.  Thanks.

 95% ?   So what your saying, is that you actually did a count and percentiled them?  Doubt it.   But regardless, its not the percent that matters...  its the games that you wish to actually Play that matters.   In my opinion, if you cant play Mad Planets, then your cab is a waste of space.   And if it cant play a 3 player game of Supersprint...  then why even bother to turn it on?    I may only play a handful of the 10 billion roms Mame supports..  but for these, I need the proper controls to do so.    These games, usually the ones with specialty controllers.. give me the most satisfaction.. as they typically are the most challenging / intense , and thus the most rewarding.

 As for Swappable panel assembly..  it may depend on what kinds of controls you use.  For example, swapping an optical wheel panel 'live', might not be a good idea.   This depends on the encoder you use, and the types of connectors you use.   But nobody can deny... there is no good connector solution for swappable panels.   Most of them are using very tedious, painful to craft, prone to breakage in a short timespan..  and or are very hard to connect / disconnect.

 That doesnt even count the lack of good panel locking systems.   Its not that I couldnt make one.. its just rare that Ive ever seen a good setup.  Actually, I havent to date.

 Still, all of this doesnt negate most of the points Ive made.   You simply are arguing for the sake of arguing... because you simply are in Love with me, and cant handle my rejection of your affection.


Quote
Things you dont seem to know about real cars: You can start a real car with the shifter in any position, because you have to keep the clutch down to crank the engine. When the clutch is down the car is in neutral no matter what "gear" the shifter is in.

 Slipped my mind.  But then, I dont drive a stick..  and I didnt recall the game as its been a long time since last play.  (The game did actually teach me how to use a stick however..  )    And then again, I dont have a robotic autistic photographic memory like you.   Then again, Im a free-thinker, which means Im able to think outside of the box, rather than be a stale copying machine, like you.


Quote
Real Cars steering wheels rotate 900 degrees. (2 1/2 turns), 3 full rotations would be *less* realistic.
Citation: I drive a 5 speed every day.

 Which is probably 900 degrees then.   As said, memory is somewhat foggy.  Then again..  no game until probably 2000 had a 900 degree wheel.   And were they in an arcade machine?  I dont think so.   And if so... they were probably boring as heck anyways.

 
Quote
    Please name another arcade racer that went to that level of realism and control accuracy...

    And or,  please find another pedal and wheel set that can be used with the most modern consoles.. that matches all of those specs... and as a bonus, could withstand the abuse of kids in a busy arcade for years on end.

Ok, more realistic arcade racers:
WEC Le Mans
Ferrari F355

 Uhh, Wec Lemans hardly qualifies to beat Race Drivin in physics and control accuracy.   Theres no 10-turn pot /  900 degree wheel.  No reverse, no pressure sensitive brake.   Its a simple 2d racer.

 Ferrarri 355 was produced way after RD,  is pretty much a Simulator.   Its tracks are Boring... and its not Fun at all.   It feels slow.  And the force feedback is both Weak, and doesnt provide half the tactile experience that RD does.   I played it Once... regretted it, and moved on.

 It made so little money in the arcade it was put in... that it was shipped out in like a month or two time.   Which is a very short time for Namco game shipment / rotations.   Games can sit for years before being moved out.

 The Race Drivin was still there however... earning steady cash.

Quote

Ok, a pedal/wheel set that matches all those specs? Fine the set up I have in my driving rig. Fanatec CSR Wheel and pedals. It doesn't rotate 1080 degrees though, its stuck being a realistic 900 degrees. No bonus though, not many home parts are designed with arcade in mind. The wheel/pedals work on PC, PS3, and xbox360.  Firmware update will allegedly allow use on PS4 and XB1 but Im sure they'll prolly release a new set for the new consoles.

 Umm, Lets try that in an Arcade format.   List the games in the arcades that used that?   Zero.

 Even F355 looks to have basic pots and basic spring assemblies for the pedals.   Its been too long since I played it, and at only one go.. I cant recall the feel.  I do know that none of the controls felt as nice as RDs.

 As for the Fanatec, the top end models have the loaded cell braking.. which again, is quite new.. and was not used in the arcades.
RD was the pinoneer in using pressure sensors in the braking assembly.  WAY before commercialized high dollar PC sim equipment.

 And even with that, the CSR cant even come close to the power the RD wheel has in its FFB...  let alone its high quality durability.

 But what your really angered about.. is the thought that Im trying to say that RD has better physics than modern PCs can produce.
Nope.   Not at all.   Im simply saying, that it was the Best Arcade sim style racing game.   Best does not mean 1000% real.  It also means, its one of the most fun and playable games as well.

 Not like the boring F355, which feels like you are driving 30mph... on one of the most boring pieces of road ever laid out.

Quote
Quote from: Xiaou2 on Today at 02:08:26 pm

    By the definition, you are driving around in your car, using a franken panel.

  ::) ??? ::) ???
How so?  My car doesnt have the paddle shifters from a Ferrari, the wheel from a Supra, a german-spec 5 gear shifter with reverse to the left, a USA-spec 5 gear shifter with reverse under 5th gear, an autostick, etc,etc,etc

A frankenpanel is an amalgamation of other control panels, so even what you think a frankenpanel is seems to be misaligned with what everyone else defines it as.   :afro:


 The definition is open to interpretation.  Its a panel that is somewhat chaotic and filled with controllers.   It has nothing to do with the fact that they are all the correct controllers for what you are trying to control.    An airplane cockpit, can easily be called a franekpanel.

 (Most especially, based on mere bad looks..  which is what most people oppose in large muli-controller panels)

 Btw - Almost seems like you are trying to brag about your 'stuff'.   It really doesnt phase me in the least what you have or do or have done.  Im not childish like you... and do not get jealous of other peoples things or accomplishments.  In fact, Im happy for them being happy.   I also do not value life by the amount of toys one has.  Ive learned to be content with whatever I have, and to treasure the smallest things, such as lifes every breath.  Often being very aware of each one I take, feeling it expand and contract and the rushing feeling of the air flowing in and out.

 And for all of your negative and strained posts.. maybe you should take a long look at this yourself... because you seem like one of the most unhappy people in the room.. despite all of your high dollar toys.   Hence the need to post a bunch of childish & useless garbage.


 Btw - Im not one to trash others artistic works.. but because you have posted your opinions and judgements, as well as attacks / stalkings...  Ill just state that if you think your cheesy vector hockey drawing is a work of art... you really are deluded.

 But dont take my word for it.  Go post your masterpiece in a few high level artists coves on the net, and brag about it there...


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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #107 on: June 14, 2014, 10:11:48 pm »
Had a long drawn out reply, but meh, why waste the text? I'll nibble on the troll bait.

95% was a guesstimate, my panel should play roughly 100% of the games I care about.  My Open Ice themed art is a raster, not a vector (PSD files are just Photoshop documents with all their layer data). It might not be super great, but its up there for anyone to download and edit. Hopefully it helps them get together art for their cabs. Ya know, making something and giving it to the community in an effort to help them. I liked F355 better than RD, but then again I like Cruisn USA more than RD. My racing set up cost less then $500 (including wheel, pedals, shifters, PC, and seat), not bragging one bit. Many people have spent far more than that on a single project. Also, all Fanatec brake pedals come with load cells. I think you looked up the price of a CSR elite set and not the more common CSR set. My wheel lacks the carbon fiber overlay. Got it to play PS3, PC, and xbox360 with a single piece of equipment, not to impress you.

Paul Olsen has done a pretty epic modular panel set up, including your precious 3 player super sprint http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,139290.msg1440379.html#msg1440379

Calling me autistic is sort of a low blow dontcha think? I'm already a ginger!
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Re: Newbie 4 Player Control Panel Thoughts
« Reply #108 on: June 15, 2014, 02:31:00 am »